[Spoilers] Discussion Topic: Season 9

[wowbagger]

3 hours ago, mirs1 said:

I've never thought that Shamy sex life (or lack thereof) could have anything to do with the fact the writers don't want to alter the  living arrangements; interesting, you might have a point...I've always thought that it more generally had to do with the "Sheldon being Sheldon" stuff or, more likely, to the intention by the writers to capitalize their investment having another "big" and unexpected episode, like 9.11. The line about the "once a year" raised curiosity in fans and media (they got more than one question about it) and it kind of created some interest about Shamy possible "second time" (no one will care about their third time, if we ever get there, LOL!) But, as things are right now, everything appears to be so dangerously close to Amy's next birthday, that maybe a new explanation is needed.

As for Amy and her "hints", as I've said many times, I don't think that, apart from the last episode, they made her appear horny nor frumpy. She appeared joyful and a bit flirty, IMO. Last episode, of course, doesn't fall into that description, it was, as Amy herself admitted, 100% Shamy 1.0. The point is that for me is another example of the writers ignoring the elephant in the room and asking us to ignore it. If the "massage" stuff (awful line, offensive towards Amy, I'm not denying that)  happened after the break up then, seriously, Amy has way more to complain about than a three minutes massage.  It doesn't make sense she doesn't address that issue, with Sheldon (that would be ideal) or at least with her girl friends when she is venting about her relationship.

Oh, I know that Amy was looking chipper and flirty in those moments. Which is all very nice. I guess my thing is.....writers, why do you still think it's funny to have Amy hint after sex, and for Sheldon to be oblivious? I mean, why did you ever think it was funny, but why do you think it's funny now, after an immensely emotional break-up and reconciliation, and a much-ballyhooed loss of virginity? Nobody was expecting that one taste of sex would turn Sheldon into some sort of cartoon wolf-whistling Casanova, but it is making a powerful statement that Sheldon isn't allowed to clearly and unequivocally say, or show, that he desires Amy. 

And it is a powerful statement, too, that after said emotional breakup and passionate reconciliation, Amy has been shoved into a position where she has to fish for excuses to see Sheldon with his trousers off, or hint for more sex, or maybe (God I hope not) cadge for him to give her a three-minute, rigidly-timed massage with her clothes on. 

And why am I uncomfortably thinking that the show is making fun of the horny frumpy girl? One additional thing, on top of Sheldon's attitude and Amy's being written to hint/wheedle for physical intimacy. Have you noticed that the show is....kinda disproportionately interested in Amy's body-hair? both Sheldon and Penny have mentioned Amy's hair, in places that conventional wisdom (and yes, fuck you, conventional wisdom) dictates that it is unsightly for those of the female persuasion to have hair. Now, I truly don't believe that Sheldon particularly cares about things like that- he's just pointing it out. And in the context of the show that would be fine, if Sheldon were shown to be into his hairy little vixen. But if you have Sheldon being seemingly sexually indifferent, Amy hinting and fishing, and the show gratuitously drawing attention to Amy's frumpy clothes and luxuriant hirsutism*, I just want to punch through the screen and scream 'WELL YOU'RE NO OIL PAINTING EITHER, MOLARO!'

*And for the love of God, she clearly isn't the werewolf you make her out to be! Fuck you and the bus you rode in on, show.

ETA: And to reiterate: this seems to be a striking post-coitus development. Before that, we had a kiss on a train which seemed to fundamentally rock Sheldon, a Sheldon who found Amy so pretty she gave him a panic attack, a Sheldon leaning in at a 45-degree angle during a makeout session in the S8 finale, and a passionate clinch in the reconciliation episode. So why, post-coitus, the writers suddenly have Sheldon's libido turned off at the tap, and have him make dispassionate remarks that seem designed to draw attention to conventional markers of feminine repulsiveness?

Edited May 7, 2016 by wowbagger

[Stephen Hawking]

1 hour ago, Judith said:

Why?

The jokes weren't funny, and they ended up as Speckerman's victims, yet again.

1 hour ago, A.D.A. said:

There were those two girls that Raj (or was it Howard?) and Sheldon picked up once.

It was Raj, not Howard, and they were Martha (she was really hot), who hooked up with Sheldon, and Abby, who hooked up with Raj.

[Jonny]

1 hour ago, wowbagger said:

Oh, I know that Amy was looking chipper and flirty in those moments. Which is all very nice. I guess my thing is.....writers, why do you still think it's funny to have Amy hint after sex, and for Sheldon to be oblivious? I mean, why did you ever think it was funny, but why do you think it's funny now, after an immensely emotional break-up and reconciliation, and a much-ballyhooed loss of virginity? Nobody was expecting that one taste of sex would turn Sheldon into some sort of cartoon wolf-whistling Casanova, but it is making a powerful statement that Sheldon isn't allowed to clearly and unequivocally say, or show, that he desires Amy. 

And it is a powerful statement, too, that after said emotional breakup and passionate reconciliation, Amy has been shoved into a position where she has to fish for excuses to see Sheldon with his trousers off, or hint for more sex, or maybe (God I hope not) cadge for him to give her a three-minute, rigidly-timed massage with her clothes on. 

And why am I uncomfortably thinking that the show is making fun of the horny frumpy girl? One additional thing, on top of Sheldon's attitude and Amy's being written to hint/wheedle for physical intimacy. Have you noticed that the show is....kinda disproportionately interested in Amy's body-hair? both Sheldon and Penny have mentioned Amy's hair, in places that conventional wisdom (and yes, fuck you, conventional wisdom) dictates that it is unsightly for those of the female persuasion to have hair. Now, I truly don't believe that Sheldon particularly cares about things like that- he's just pointing it out. And in the context of the show that would be fine, if Sheldon were shown to be into his hairy little vixen. But if you have Sheldon being seemingly sexually indifferent, Amy hinting and fishing, and the show gratuitously drawing attention to Amy's frumpy clothes and luxuriant hirsutism*, I just want to punch through the screen and scream 'WELL YOU'RE NO OIL PAINTING EITHER, MOLARO!'

*And for the love of God, she clearly isn't the werewolf you make her out to be! Fuck you and the bus you rode in on, show.

As usual love reading your posts, you always find a way to put your point across so eloquently and at the same time so funny.

I find the lack of physical interaction between Sheldon and Amy (hand holding, kissing, cuddling or hugging etc) since they had sex as puzzling as anyone on this forum. The only reasoning I could think of is the the writers feel there has been too much Shamy this season already and have decided to just put it all on the back burner, or as Jim has said in the past back to that 'glacial' pace. To be fair I can think of times in the past when Howardette and to a lesser degree Lenny haven't actually physically touched each other for a couple of episodes so there is some precedence there but still you are looking at like 10 episodes plus with Shamy. I just don't get it.

In terms of the hair gags I actually would drop it if I was the writers. I mean it did kind of make sense early season Amy because I would guess that personal grooming was probably not a major thing for Amy growing up because of strict parents and a lack of a social life (for example teenage girls talking about makeup, body grooming etc) . But now, chances are Amy just isn't like that anymore thanks to her interactions with Penny and Bernadette.

I don't mind clothing humor because Amy has her unique style and she doesn't care what people think. It's one of her most endearing qualities that she wears stuff she finds comfortable rather than the aesthetics. Not always a fan of the orthopedic shoes though lol

But I guess it's just easy humor for the writers, even though you could argue some of the gags probably aren't relevant now or don't make much sense after years of character growth. 

Edited May 7, 2016 by Jonny83

[Tensor]

56 minutes ago, wowbagger said:

ETA: And to reiterate: this seems to be a striking post-coitus development. Before that, we had a kiss on a train which seemed to fundamentally rock Sheldon, a Sheldon who found Amy so pretty she gave him a panic attack, a Sheldon leaning in at a 45-degree angle during a makeout session in the S8 finale, and a passionate clinch in the reconciliation episode. So why, post-coitus, the writers suddenly have Sheldon's libido turned off at the tap, and have him make dispassionate remarks that seem designed to draw attention to conventional markers of feminine repulsiveness?

Remember back in season 8 when there were some Lennys who were complaining about the lack of physicality between Leonard and Penny.  And we were told by members of another ship that there was nothing to complain about, because it wasn't a big deal, they were in a good place,  things were happening off camera, etc.  

So...yeah... it's not a big deal, Shamy is in a good place, those kinds of things are happening off camera, etc...    

 

[Stephen Hawking]

9 minutes ago, Tensor said:

So...yeah... it's not a big deal, Shamy is in a good place, those kinds of things are happening off camera, etc...    

I agree. It's not a big deal.

Shamy have always taken their relationship "ridiculously slow".

[Tensor]

I was being facetious.  I happen to agree with wowbagger.  There is a difference between ridiculously slow, and regressing. 

[djsurrey]

6 hours ago, wowbagger said:

I confess I've never really understood this argument. So if I buy a pair of shoes and the soles fall off within minutes, I'm not allowed to complain because I'm not personally a cobbler? If a car spontaneously explodes, are we not allowed to sue the manufacturer unless we can design and build the car ourselves? I'm reasonably sure that Adam Smith never had that in mind when he discussed specialisation in industrialised societies,,,,

Well if you purchase flip-flops and try to use them as football cleats you are going to be disappointed.

If you love fine wine are you going to complain the beer in your glass is not wine?

TBBT has performed far better that most sitcoms. They have managed to appeal to the hoi polloi which is essential for survival.

[wowbagger]

27 minutes ago, Tensor said:

Remember back in season 8 when there were some Lennys who were complaining about the lack of physicality between Leonard and Penny.  And we were told by members of another ship that there was nothing to complain about, because it wasn't a big deal, they were in a good place,  things were happening off camera, etc.  

So...yeah... it's not a big deal, Shamy is in a good place, those kinds of things are happening off camera, etc...    

 

HA! Hoist with my own petard, eh? But in my own defence, I did also say later in Season Eight that the writing of Lenny made me fear for the writing of Shamy....

[camelliayao]

34 minutes ago, Tensor said:

Remember back in season 8 when there were some Lennys who were complaining about the lack of physicality between Leonard and Penny.  And we were told by members of another ship that there was nothing to complain about, because it wasn't a big deal, they were in a good place,  things were happening off camera, etc.  

So...yeah... it's not a big deal, Shamy is in a good place, those kinds of things are happening off camera, etc...    

 

I think the problem is, the audience know Lenny would have no problem in their sex life. So even though they don't show us on screen, we know Lenny have desires towards each other and they "do it" regularly.

But Sheldon's sexuality has always been something debatable. Some people think he's asexual, others don't. Based on the examples wowbagger gave in the previous post, before the coitus episode, I believe Sheldon does have desires towards Amy.

So basically I was waiting for the writers to make it more clear in the coitus episode, only to find that they suddenly decided to go the asexual route. Because nothing in that episode shows Sheldon has desires.

I was very shocked. Then people on the forum started to make excuses for the writers, saying that was their first time, we need to give them more time. 

Ok. Fine. I'll wait. It turns out nothing happened in the second half of the season, except for those jokes about how much Amy desires Sheldon and how oblivious Sheldon is. 

What bothers me is, if the writers decide to portray Sheldon as asexual, fine. But STOP MAKING JOKES ABOUT AMY'S DESIRE! Because if they continue with these jokes, it'll be like either Amy's too stupid to notice that Sheldon has no interests in her, or she does know Sheldon's asexual but she doesn't respect his sexuality and keeps pushing him. Not Ok.

If they decide to portray Sheldon as someone who just doesn't have much interest in sex, also fine. But then they should let Amy know about that and let the two just talk. Let them find out a solution that both of them can accept.

 

 

Edited May 7, 2016 by camelliayao

[wowbagger]

13 minutes ago, djsurrey said:

Well if you purchase flip-flops and try to use them as football cleats you are going to be disappointed.

If you love fine wine are you going to complain the beer in your glass is not wine?

TBBT has performed far better that most sitcoms. They have managed to appeal to the hoi polloi which is essential for survival.

This, sadly, is nothing but the truth. But in my defence, there was a period between seasons two and eight that the show was, if not champagne, a bloody good craft beer- unassuming, perhaps, but well-made and satisfying. And season eight has some of my all-time favourite episodes of the show, ever, and only one of them is particularly 'shippy. 

Now, I really liked 'Opening Night'. It was well-acted, moving, funny and everyone was just so damn nice. You don't have to be mean to get laugh, show! Apart from that? Season Nine (especially the back half, with a few exceptions), has been the show at its laziest- and, more to the point, meanest, for me. It's not just beer in a glass- it's, God, i don't know. Rancid duck fat, masquerading as a smoothie.

Edited May 7, 2016 by wowbagger

[Jonny]

I don't think Sheldon is asexual, I am pretty sure I recall Sheldon saying he has desires like any man does when Penny asked him. It might have been the prom episode in season 8 though I could be wrong. Now Sheldon did freak out later but that was understandable he wasn't ready and felt under pressure.

[camelliayao]

3 minutes ago, Jonny83 said:

I don't think Sheldon is asexual, I am pretty sure I recall Sheldon saying he has desires like any man does when Penny asked him. It might have been the prom episode in season 8 though I could be wrong. Now Sheldon did freak out later but that was understandable he wasn't ready and felt under pressure.

Yes. Before the Opening Nitht Excitation, I thought so too. After that, I don't know. 

[djsurrey]

21 minutes ago, wowbagger said:

This, sadly, is nothing but the truth. But in my defence, there was a period between seasons two and eight that the show was, if not champagne, a bloody good craft beer- unassuming, perhaps, but well-made and satisfying. And season eight has some of my all-time favourite episodes of the show, ever, and only one of them is particularly 'shippy. 

Now, I really liked 'Opening Night'. It was well-acted, moving, funny and everyone was just so damn nice. You don't have to be mean to get laugh, show! Apart from that? Season Nine (especially the back half, with a few exceptions), has been the show at its laziest- and, more to the point, meanest, for me. It's not just beer in a glass- it's, God, i don't know. Rancid duck fat, masquerading as a smoothie.

Well there is a muppet connection...

[Swedish Chef]

3 hours ago, wowbagger said:

Oh, I know that Amy was looking chipper and flirty in those moments. Which is all very nice. I guess my thing is.....writers, why do you still think it's funny to have Amy hint after sex, and for Sheldon to be oblivious? I mean, why did you ever think it was funny, but why do you think it's funny now, after an immensely emotional break-up and reconciliation, and a much-ballyhooed loss of virginity? Nobody was expecting that one taste of sex would turn Sheldon into some sort of cartoon wolf-whistling Casanova, but it is making a powerful statement that Sheldon isn't allowed to clearly and unequivocally say, or show, that he desires Amy. 

And it is a powerful statement, too, that after said emotional breakup and passionate reconciliation, Amy has been shoved into a position where she has to fish for excuses to see Sheldon with his trousers off, or hint for more sex, or maybe (God I hope not) cadge for him to give her a three-minute, rigidly-timed massage with her clothes on. 

And why am I uncomfortably thinking that the show is making fun of the horny frumpy girl? One additional thing, on top of Sheldon's attitude and Amy's being written to hint/wheedle for physical intimacy. Have you noticed that the show is....kinda disproportionately interested in Amy's body-hair? both Sheldon and Penny have mentioned Amy's hair, in places that conventional wisdom (and yes, fuck you, conventional wisdom) dictates that it is unsightly for those of the female persuasion to have hair. Now, I truly don't believe that Sheldon particularly cares about things like that- he's just pointing it out. And in the context of the show that would be fine, if Sheldon were shown to be into his hairy little vixen. But if you have Sheldon being seemingly sexually indifferent, Amy hinting and fishing, and the show gratuitously drawing attention to Amy's frumpy clothes and luxuriant hirsutism*, I just want to punch through the screen and scream 'WELL YOU'RE NO OIL PAINTING EITHER, MOLARO!'

*And for the love of God, she clearly isn't the werewolf you make her out to be! Fuck you and the bus you rode in on, show.

ETA: And to reiterate: this seems to be a striking post-coitus development. Before that, we had a kiss on a train which seemed to fundamentally rock Sheldon, a Sheldon who found Amy so pretty she gave him a panic attack, a Sheldon leaning in at a 45-degree angle during a makeout session in the S8 finale, and a passionate clinch in the reconciliation episode. So why, post-coitus, the writers suddenly have Sheldon's libido turned off at the tap, and have him make dispassionate remarks that seem designed to draw attention to conventional markers of feminine repulsiveness?

Love reading your posts. None can analyze a episode better than @wowbagger, and most of the time I think you are totally right.

[JE7]

Just watched it for the second time and it reinforced my original opinion, it just wasent funny. Not on grin much less a laugh in the whole episode.

And unfortunately that's the bottom line for me, before charecter growth or ship or anything else  I watch a comedy to laugh and I rarely do anymore 

Edited May 7, 2016 by JE7

[Swedish Chef]

The laughs has been few and far between in many episodes in season 8 and 9. IMO

[nibbler747]

I found the conversation in the car between Penny and Beverly very funny.  No? I also found Sheldon bringing up Rosa Parks funny.

On the Lenny front, I thought it was good in that it showed Penny committed to her marriage by trying to develop a deeper relationship with Beverly.

As for Shamy, I think it was supposed to be a light tiff between the two .  It read funnier than it played out on screen.  Liked the Stuart go between.  Didn't like the return of wah wah Amy.   Would like if every statement about Sheldon didn't have an undertone of complaining.  Apology was rushed.  Meh...

What I found interesting was the dynamic between the three girls.  Penny jealous of Amy, Bernie trying to smooth things and facilitate, Amy being a bit oblivious to Penny's tension.... 

[djsurrey]

24 minutes ago, nibbler747 said:

What I found interesting was the dynamic between the three girls.  Penny jealous of Amy, Bernie trying to smooth things and facilitate, Amy being a bit oblivious to Penny's tension.... 

This is where the value was in this episode. Not roll on the floor funny but good material anyway in my opinion. 

Edited May 7, 2016 by djsurrey
sp

[Judith]

If you had asked me when the tr for 9x11 came out I would have told you that it's just a matter of time before the sex storyline is revisited, all we have to do is wait. And with every episode that passed, I thought "Ok, maybe the next will be the one". But now the season is over and there's absolutely no indication of what's going on there. The train kiss was resolved 4 episodes later, so, from a narrative point, I'm just confused. The stalling reason that was mentioned above could have merit though.

Oh, and yes, I know what some people are thinking: "We know what's going on, he doesn't want her". Personally, I don't share that opinion, not until the writers decide to resolve this situation. We already know thst Sheldon felt desire towards Amy up until Opening Night, so I don't know how they could take that back. BTW, just because we haven't seen them kiss since Opening Night, doesn't mean they don't. We never saw them do that a lot anyway, but we knew it was happening. Of course, now there's the added sex that complicates things.

Anyway, bottom line is, since i) there's previous evidence that S wants A, ii) a lack of on-screen physical intimacy (of all kinds) after ON and Sheldon's obliviousness don't equal no sexual desire from S's side and iii) all this isn't a barrier to a future resolution where it's either revealed that they've been having sex all along or that there's an explanation for all this, for now I'm just going to wait until the episode where this is resolved, leaning 95% (because you never know) on a resolution that will have Sheldon reciprocating Amy's feelings.

For me, that's a fair deal.

[Jedichic98]

I also don't share the belief that Sheldon isn't attracted to Amy. In my mind there are two possibilities for how I want this matter to be handled 

1.) it turns out that they have been doing it all along

2.) Yes, sheldon was the one who had the idea in 9x11 but Amy spared him from stating it because she already knew about it. I think Sheldon does want to address it again, but since he really had no experience brining it up, he just doesn't know how. So it may be him waiting for Amy to make the first move like before, the only difference is now (aside from her flirting and for lack of a better word "hinting") Amy would never be forceful to Sheldon and make the first move physically because she doesn't want to push him too hard. So the two are kind of stuck in limbo until one of them "straps on a pair" and make their desires crystal clear. 

As always this is how I want (or is it dreamed/hoped) it to be handled. And I think personally, both are highly plausible. 

[JE7]

After reading the last few pages I can only say when you have to fan wank situations for multiple paragraphs and add in a ton of head canon to make seanse of a scene/episode then only the true apologists can say the show still makes ANY kind of logical seanse with a straight face

And while arguing the nuance if a scene can be fun if you have to explain it, especially in detail it's not funny no matter what Sheldon thinks

Edited May 7, 2016 by JE7

[Nogravitasatall]

1 hour ago, nibbler747 said:

I found the conversation in the car between Penny and Beverly very funny.  No? I also found Sheldon bringing up Rosa Parks funny.

On the Lenny front, I thought it was good in that it showed Penny committed to her marriage by trying to develop a deeper relationship with Beverly.

As for Shamy, I think it was supposed to be a light tiff between the two .  It read funnier than it played out on screen.  Liked the Stuart go between.  Didn't like the return of wah wah Amy.   Would like if every statement about Sheldon didn't have an undertone of complaining.  Apology was rushed.  Meh...

What I found interesting was the dynamic between the three girls.  Penny jealous of Amy, Bernie trying to smooth things and facilitate, Amy being a bit oblivious to Penny's tension.... 

This is interesting. We know that Leonard has definitely suffered in his mother's care, and yet his wife is embracing her? It's a little vexed, isn't it? It is fondly reported so it must play well.

And, it's a rather obtuse way of showing that Penny loves Leonard. How about them just showing that Penny loves him by - I don't know - maybe taking him by the hand and hauling him off across the hall for at least an entire weekend. Sheldon could remark on their absence after the event. Or better still, maybe she could be seen to stick up for him against his room mate. (There's that premise awkwardly lying dead on the carpet again - a married man with a roomie)

 

 

[Chrismo]

41 minutes ago, Nogravitasatall said:

This is interesting. We know that Leonard has definitely suffered in his mother's care, and yet his wife is embracing her? It's a little vexed, isn't it? It is fondly reported so it must play well.

And, it's a rather obtuse way of showing that Penny loves Leonard. How about them just showing that Penny loves him by - I don't know - maybe taking him by the hand and hauling him off across the hall for at least an entire weekend. Sheldon could remark on their absence after the event. Or better still, maybe she could be seen to stick up for him against his room mate. (There's that premise awkwardly lying dead on the carpet again - a married man with a roomie)

 

 

But you have to give Penny kudos for being willing to pick up Beverly from the airport by herself. She also didn't have to spend time with her when Leonard avoided her. He avoided her before going to the movie thing came up. She even got Beverly to admit she wasn't a good parent. As to Lenny living with Sheldon there is plenty of blame to be shared by all three. It isn't just on Penny.

[ajond]

7 minutes ago, Chrismo said:

But you have to give Penny kudos for being willing to pick up Beverly from the airport by herself. She also didn't have to spend time with her when Leonard avoided her. He avoided her before going to the movie thing came up. She even got Beverly to admit she wasn't a good parent. As to Lenny living with Sheldon there is plenty of blame to be shared by all three. It isn't just on Penny.

Actually it was Penny who caved and agreed to live (mostly) in 4a when Leonard had already decided to move out.

[5Mississippis]

39 minutes ago, Nogravitasatall said:

This is interesting. We know that Leonard has definitely suffered in his mother's care, and yet his wife is embracing her? It's a little vexed, isn't it? It is fondly reported so it must play well.

And, it's a rather obtuse way of showing that Penny loves Leonard. How about them just showing that Penny loves him by - I don't know - maybe taking him by the hand and hauling him off across the hall for at least an entire weekend. Sheldon could remark on their absence after the event. Or better still, maybe she could be seen to stick up for him against his room mate. (There's that premise awkwardly lying dead on the carpet again - a married man with a roomie)

In the episode, it played out that Bev was bonding beautifully with both Amy and Bernadette, not so much with Penny. On the clinical level that Bev operates on, there was nothing she had to share with Penny. The formulation of new anti-anxiety agents with Bernadette; a doctor lecturing about them with Amy. To the writers credit, I thought how those lines played were very organic and well done. Bernadette, who I usually don't care for due to her abrasive nature, was a sweetheart here, trying multiple times to swing Penny into the conversation. 

To me, this didn't feel like Penny was 'sleeping with the enemy' the way it felt in Combustion -- with Penny disregarding Leonard and siding with Sheldon for her own gain. For me, the salient part was that Leonard's heartless, cold, clinical, unfeeling mother finally showed some humanity in noticing that 'Leonard [had never been] so happy' and, although it's not said, by extension, we know that it is Penny who is making him feel that way. Penny glowed and looked absolutely  radiant at Bev's comment -- making it one of my top Lenny moments, especially in a season where we weren't given a whole lot. Other than a crappy wedding and a whole lot of snark.