[Spoilers] Discussion Topic: Season 9

[rachelshamyfan]

12 hours ago, Lagernisse said:

To me it´s pretty clear after watching season 8 and 9 that the writers only care or writes good stories for 2 characters. The other characters has almost been totally forgotten and I don´t expect season 10 to be anything different. 

I wouldn´t be surprised if we see Sheldons second cousin before Pennys mother.

Personally imo I don't think the beginning of season 9 was written well for shamy, from earworm it was much better, I just don't see anything bad about how Lenny were shown but again that's jmo

 

[Mislav]

7 hours ago, Carlos said:

No, Sheldon is not obliged to do anything, but it is very sad that a character demonstrates having sexual urges and that the other one shows no interest at all. Also you know full well that I did not say what you're proposing I said. Furthermore it is not a matter that if he isn't interested then, then he has no interest at all in such things, it is the fact that he has shown NO interest at all (in Amy sexually) for an extended period of time. Btw, that'd be fine too, if Amy felt exactly the same, but she clearly doesn't.

I totally get where you're coming from and somewhat agree with you. The part where I start disagreeing is when you start to mention all the things that might (or might not) have gone on off-screen. No, I mean absolutely not. We are NOT supposed to fill in the blanks. What goes on off screen is NOT canon. They might have kissed since December or they might not (I know it's likely they did). But assuming certain things happened off screen is a slippery slope. If they want to communicate something TPTB don't have to show it but can refer to it , even if it is in passing, or even if it is very briefly, but at the very least they have to suggest it, don't they?

It pains me for Amy's sake how indifferent he has been to her after the coitus episode. Why is it that in Sheldon's case we are supposed to start imagining a lot of things that might or might not have happened off screen, but in Amy's case we can actually see her desires in full display of the viewing audience? (Making it canon, btw)

And again, every couple has a certain thing that they are not on the same footing about. And again, Sheldon is not the type of person to openly talk about sex, and Amy expressing her POV about that has become a running gag (though not particularly good one), which is likely why the writers use it. And why would assuming that something happens off screen be sloppery? Are we supposed to doubt that Emily (from season five) broke up with Raj because it wasn't shown on screen? Or that Leonard and Penny didn't have sex after that season six Valentine's Day episode? How far will this go? And no, we are not SUPPOSED to fill in the blanks, but people have a right to do it, and there are more than reasonable posibilities that some things have happened, even when not shown on screen, and you should (in my opinion, of course) at least try to consider that instead of going "You don't know for sure, so screw that, not even going to bother considering that theory."

[wowbagger]

For me, Lenny's kitchen island stories aren't even the real problem, because for the most part they were cracking wise and in sync. Did it get monotonous? Surely. Did I begin to wonder whether there was a gravitational field there? No doubt. Did almost every single one of us begin to mutter some variant of 'It's. Only. Across. The Frigging. HALL.' the longer the situation carried on? I think so, right? Especially since every obvious avenue of comedy in the situation was side-stepped.

But the refusal to have Lenny move on- despite increasing scrutiny from all sorts of sources- suggests that this, again, is not a commercial decision. The writers are stuck in the way they write Lenny- specifically, in the way they write Penny. They stopped even trying to write for poor Leonard around 'Champagne', and that was the first proper episode he'd had in a very, very long time. In their heads, they see Lenny as a vindication of poor, bullied Leonard, getting the free-spirited hottie. But the catch is that once you have Penny settle down and be happy, she loses much of her appeal for the writers. So contentment and fulfilment always seem juuuuuust out of reach for Penny. How many times have one of us said 'For the love of God, let Penny find a job she likes'? And I think it's a related issue. Penny's unlocalised angst and dissatisfaction keep her, still, tantalisingly out of reach. How do you catch a cloud and pin it down, and all that. Of course, once you realise that Penny's angst is wheeled out intermittently, is never resolved, and basically is only told through the lens of how it affects her relationship with Leonard, you kind of lose interest with it.

How does that explain the not moving out? From a plot perspective, it doesn't, honestly. You could have this tired dynamic play out in exactly the same way, whether or not Lenny were in their own place. As @Tensor points out, the plots in the latter half of the season would have been basically unaffected by Lenny moving out. I think it's a visceral reaction. @djsurrey's explanation about superstition is the best one I've seen, honestly.

 

[April]

8 hours ago, Carlos said:

I totally get where you're coming from and somewhat agree with you. The part where I start disagreeing is when you start to mention all the things that might (or might not) have gone on off-screen. No, I mean absolutely not. We are NOT supposed to fill in the blanks. What goes on off screen is NOT canon. They might have kissed since December or they might not (I know it's likely they did). But assuming certain things happened off screen is a slippery slope. If they want to communicate something TPTB don't have to show it but can refer to it , even if it is in passing, or even if it is very briefly, but at the very least they have to suggest it, don't they?

It pains me for Amy's sake how indifferent he has been to her after the coitus episode. Why is it that in Sheldon's case we are supposed to start imagining a lot of things that might or might not have happened off screen, but in Amy's case we can actually see her desires in full display of the viewing audience? (Making it canon, btw)

I'm not saying that you need to fill in the blanks with raunchy fanfic scenarios or whatever. But your concern only works if you completely ignore the couple's established behaviour from the past seasons and assume that somehow they stopped holding hands/hugging/kissing/etc. altogether and this is something that isn't communicated either by the show. The uncertainty is annoying, yes, but to assume that they go from regular physical contact to passionate reunion to sex to... nothing?? is absurd. It would be a radical change of those characters. If Amy wouldn't get anything she'd probably complain about that and not drop flirty hints that she might be interested in another lovemaking marathon. I can't even blame Sheldon for not getting it cause her attempts are quite subtle and imho she just needs to tell him flat out what she wants instead of tiptoeing around it. For what it's worth they do seem to be more relaxed around each other in terms of their body language, including quite a bit of casual touching, which may not mean much if it were any other couple but for those two it signifies a new level of comfortableness with each other, imho.

I very much disagree with the idea that Sheldon was "indifferent" to her. Save for very few missteps he's been a delight compared to earlier seasons (I mean, jeez, people complain he's too nice now!). Many episodes concentrate on the two of them strengthening their emotional bond and I think that's important, too. Possibly even more important for them cause that's where the core of their relationship lies. And no, things are not perfect on that front quite yet and the occasional setback is certainly a bummer, but they've been making progress that's where the writer's focus seems to be for the time being. And again, I can not stress enough that I, too, would have preferred if the writers would have given us another story that explores their physical relationship by the end of S9. It would have been perfect, especially after Solder and Big Bear. But as we know now the writers changed their mind about finale thanks to JH and whatever initial plans/ideas they may have had have been changed or postponed to S10. So we have to wait and see.

And as said in my earlier post: This isn't the first time that there's a stretch of episodes where nothing seems to happen with them physically and I wouldn't even blame anyone who'd develop certain doubts, and yet it then turned out that isn't where the story is going. Take kissing and S8 for example. People have been writing long passionate posts about how the Locomotive kiss rocked Sheldon to his core, yadda yadda. But what did we get after that? The Indecision kiss was nice in that it established that they do that on date nights now but the kiss itself was mostly played as a joke with them talking all the way through it. And then came S8 and we got... nothing. In all of S8 there were like two blink and you'll miss it mentions of them kissing off screen and one was how their kisses are not romantic and the other was Sheldon complaining that Amy kissed him under a mistletoe in public. Up to and including 8x23 you could probably make a convincing case that 7x15 was a fluke and Sheldon actually doesn't like kissing and only does it out of obligation or whatever. And along came the cold open of 8x24 with them making out on the couch. No, they weren't fooling around like a bunch of drunk teenagers. It was very tame and in that it fitted the characters. But nonetheless it showed Sheldon was really enjoying this. Yes, he ruined the moment with his comment, but he wanted to drop the argument immediately and go back to more kissy face. Anyway... my point is that it took the writers like 30+ episodes to reassure us that yes, Sheldon really enjoys kissing. It was a long stretch of episodes that only included a few scraps for us to cling to. And I think we're in a similar situation now. It's been 13 episodes since 9x11 so by Shamy standards it's not even that long. It's just a question of time when the next very special episode with them being physical drops.

(Sorry for the long ramblings, whoops)

Edited May 26, 2016 by April

[Guest]

11 minutes ago, April said:

But as we know now the writers changed their mind about finale thanks to JH and whatever initial plans/ideas they may have had have been changed or postponed to S10. So we have to wait and see.

How do you know they had other plans before Judd Hirsch? As far as I know, none of the writers ever said that.

12 minutes ago, April said:

Up to and including 8x23 you could probably make a convincing case that 7x17 was a fluke and Sheldon actually doesn't like kissing and only does it out of obligation or whatever.

What happened in 7x17? He kissed Amy in 7x15.

[April]

4 minutes ago, FileXxX said:

How do you know they had other plans before Judd Hirsch? As far as I know, none of the writers ever said that.

Hence why I wrote "may have had". They said that the sudden possibility of casting JH gave them a new idea for the finale - but of course they didn't say what or how detailed their initial plans were. It could have been a rough idea, it could have been something more detailed. We don't know, hence my wording.

4 minutes ago, FileXxX said:

What happened in 7x17? He kissed Amy in 7x15.

Whoops, typo.

[Guest]

21 minutes ago, April said:

Hence why I wrote "may have had". They said that the sudden possibility of casting JH gave them a new idea for the finale - but of course they didn't say what or how detailed their initial plans were. It could have been a rough idea, it could have been something more detailed. We don't know, hence my wording.

The only thing I got from these articles about Judd Hirsch is that they wanted to introduce Leonard's dad for a long time, but only found a fitting actor when they met him. As I recall, Molaro has talked about a possible visit from Leonard's dad much earlier during season nine and Johnny also talked about a wedding re-do way before the finale, which is why I think the plot for the finale was already set stone for a few months.

[April]

16 minutes ago, FileXxX said:

The only thing I got from these articles about Judd Hirsch is that they wanted to introduce Leonard's dad for a long time, but only found a fitting actor when they met him. As I recall, Molaro has talked about a possible visit from Leonard's dad much earlier during season nine and Johnny also talked about a wedding re-do way before the finale, which is why I think the plot for the finale was already set stone for a few months.

Johnny approached JH at the Burrows special in January and I think that's when things were set into motion. And all the talk about Leonard's dad coming to town and the wedding redo seems to be after that, from what I remember. I mean, there's always generic "oh yeah sure, it would be great to have [family member Xyz] show up" talk so I think that might be a contributing factor as to why they jumped onto this story when they had the possibility of JH being on board.

Edit to add, in Molaro's own words:

Quote

It started a few months back when Johnny and Judd met [at NBC’s James Burrows tribute] and started talking, and Judd expressed an interest in playing Leonard’s father. [...] We started wondering how and why he comes to town and what could be fun about that.

Funnily enough tabloids speculated that JH might be playing Howard's dad during the summer hiatus/earlier S9.

Edited May 26, 2016 by April

[Guest]

8 minutes ago, April said:

And all the talk about Leonard's dad coming to town and the wedding redo seems to be after that, from what I remember.

Nope, Johnny talked about a wedding re-do somewhere mid-season. Of course he was just voicing desires, but he must have gotten the idea from somewhere. I can't seem to find the article anymore, but I'm 100% sure.

[April]

3 minutes ago, FileXxX said:

Nope, Johnny talked about a wedding re-do somewhere mid-season. Of course he was just voicing desires, but he must have gotten the idea from somewhere. I can't seem to find the article anymore, but I'm 100% sure.

Mid season started January so these things are not mutually exclusive. Plus, who is to say that the writers didn't get the idea from him.

Edited May 26, 2016 by April

[5Mississippis]

1 hour ago, FileXxX said:

Nope, Johnny talked about a wedding re-do somewhere mid-season. Of course he was just voicing desires, but he must have gotten the idea from somewhere. I can't seem to find the article anymore, but I'm 100% sure.

Yes, there was. It was just a little tid-bit in The Hollywood Reporter from February 25, 2016 entitled A Formal Ceremony? 

[hokie3457]

51 minutes ago, 5Mississippis said:

Yes, there was. It was just a little tid-bit in The Hollywood Reporter from February 25, 2016 entitled A Formal Ceremony? 

....and just noticed your updated profile picture 5Miss.  Nicely done!

[Nogravitasatall]

Late as ever.... the last three episodes finally fell. Not too bad. Stuart did a great job highlighting the micro-outsourcing industries. It's of the times.  As for the wrap, yes, weddings - dangerous things. As to the cliffhanger anyone thinking "stepbrothers" has to be a bit optimistic. If it's parental sex, then it's just going to be sex. Why should it be more? Even then, it's still possible they just turned off their phones to save their batteries. Sad about the rest of the series, but it ended better than I'd expected.

 

[hokie3457]

4 minutes ago, Nogravitasatall said:

Late as ever.... the last three episodes finally fell. Not too bad. Stuart did a great job highlighting the micro-outsourcing industries. It's of the times.  As for the wrap, yes, weddings - dangerous things. As to the cliffhanger anyone thinking "stepbrothers" has to be a bit optimistic. If it's parental sex, then it's just going to be sex. Why should it be more? Even then, it's still possible they just turned off their phones to save their batteries. Sad about the rest of the series, but it ended better than I'd expected.

 

Yes!  The remarkable thing about the final two episodes was their finally letting us see Penny's elan regarding her husband and their marriage.  It had been (for the most part---strong emphasis there) missing for major portions of the season.  Her jumping right in, offering to pick up her mother-in-law from the airport, solo; her wanting to bond with said mother-in-law; her excitement at seeing her father-in-law (again); her selling the marriage re-do to Leonard.  All of these were welcome sights and signs that things are (again, for the most part) alright with the younger (read: young and fun) Hofstadters.  Now if we can just have them move to a place of their own......

[Guest]

1 hour ago, 5Mississippis said:

Yes, there was. It was just a little tid-bit in The Hollywood Reporter from February 25, 2016 entitled A Formal Ceremony? 

Thanks!

[5Mississippis]

20 minutes ago, hokie3457 said:

....and just noticed your updated profile picture 5Miss.  Nicely done!

Yes! Thank you, hokie! It was inspired by the Cleaning Squad Interior: Naughty Youth thread! In my mind, it was Penny was the beautiful, bored housewife and Leonard was the delicious pool boy she couldn't resist -- and, of course, the pool - side hijinks that result while the pool boy is cleaning the pool! 

It's silly, I know but ... hey! What is that floating in the pool? Why it's SS 5Mississippis -- and her boat is floating! 

Edited May 26, 2016 by 5Mississippis

[hokie3457]

2 minutes ago, 5Mississippis said:

Yes! Thank you, hokie! It was inspired by the Cleaning Squad Interior: Naughty Youth thread! In my mind, it was Penny was the beautiful, bored housewife and Leonard was the delicious pool boy she couldn't resist -- and, of course, the pool - side hijinks that result while the pool boy is cleaning the pool! 

It's silly, I know but ... hey! What is that floating in the pool? Why it's SS 5Mississippis -- and her boat is floating! 

....sounds like a role-playing fan-fic!!!

[Lady in Red]

12 hours ago, Carlos said:

They might have kissed since December or they might not (I know it's likely they did). But assuming certain things happened off screen is a slippery slope.it If they want to communicate something TPTB don't have to show it but can refer to , even if it is in passing, or even if it is very briefly, but at the very least they have to suggest it, don't they?

In 9x18 Penny tells Amy that she and Sheldon will be making out that evening.

Penny: Sheldon, did you draft the contract?

Sheldon: You bet I did.

Penny: Ooh. You’re gonna make out so hard tonight.

So, this would imply Shamy kissing is going on off-screen.

^^^^^^^^

o.k.  Tough crowd here.  The Penny character is generally kind and intuitive, and as Sheldon's roommate and Amy's Bestie, is in a good position to have an idea of what is happening off screen.  If she really thinks they aren't even touching, I doubt that she would be so mean as to throw this comment in Amy's face.  I think that this is a clue to us from the writers as to the level of current sexual activity between this couple.  Not proof, but yet a clue.

[Tensor]

18 minutes ago, Lady in Red said:

If she really thinks they aren't even touching, I doubt that she would be so mean as to throw this comment in Amy's face.  I think that this is a clue to us from the writers as to the level of current sexual activity between this couple.  Not proof, but yet a clue.

Yes, it's a clue, but why does Penny tell her that?  Is it because she thinks Sheldon is excited by Amy and the reason for her excitement is because of his desire of Amy?  Or, is it because she thinks Sheldon is excited by writing up a contract and his excitement has nothing to do with Amy?

[Judith]

Lol, why is this line so important? @Tensor, some people want to read the line differently. It's not even about Lenny. It's ok.

[Tensor]

 

2 minutes ago, Judith said:

Lol, why is this line so important?

To who, you? I just gave my opinion on how I thought.  You, are just commenting here about my thoughts and opinions about the show. 

2 minutes ago, Judith said:

some people want to read the line differently.

That's fine.  I didn't tell anyone they couldn't, nor did say my was the only interpretation. But, again, talking about my comments, not the discussion about the show. 

 

2 minutes ago, Judith said:

It's not even about Lenny. It's ok.

So?  Are you implying I shouldn't comment, unless it's about Lenny?  Again, you're commenting  about my post, not about Sheldon and Penny's lines. 

 

 

[mirs1]

1 hour ago, Tensor said:

Yes, it's a clue, but why does Penny tell her that?  Is it because she thinks Sheldon is excited by Amy and the reason for her excitement is because of his desire of Amy?  Or, is it because she thinks Sheldon is excited by writing up a contract and his excitement has nothing to do with Amy?

Well, Penny might think whatever she wants, that doesn't make it true. Our reasoning is that she lives there, so (like Leonard in Season 8 ) she might have seen them kissing before; otherwise, as @Lady in Red said, if she knows for sure they aren't touching at all after 9.11 she wouldn't have made the joke, it would have been cruel. About her reasons for making the joke, they not necessarily reflect Sheldon's ideas on the subject. 

Edited May 26, 2016 by mirs1

[Tensor]

1 minute ago, mirs1 said:

Well, Penny might think whatever she wants, that doesn't make it true. Our reasoning is that she lives there, so (like Leonard in Season 8 ) she might have seen them kissing before; otherwise, as @Lady in Red said, if she knows for sure they aren't touching at all after 9.11 she wouldn't have made the joke, it would have been cruel. About her reasons for making the joke, they not necessarily reflect Sheldon's ideas on the subject. 

But the post I answered stated that there was kissing going on behind the scenes, based on the "making out so hard" line.  My question was simply was it because Penny thought they were going to make out hard because of the desire Sheldon for Amy, or because, Penny thought, Sheldon was excited due to his drawing up contracts.

[Lady in Red]

35 minutes ago, Tensor said:

But the post I answered stated that there was kissing going on behind the scenes, based on the "making out so hard" line.  My question was simply was it because Penny thought they were going to make out hard because of the desire Sheldon for Amy, or because, Penny thought, Sheldon was excited due to his drawing up contracts.

I think it is likely that Sheldon is excited due to drawing up the contracts, and that Penny thinks that Amy is going to benefit.  Whatever his motivation for making out hard, Penny's comment indicates that she sees him as a sexual being where Amy is concerned.

[Swedish Chef]

7 hours ago, wowbagger said:

For me, Lenny's kitchen island stories aren't even the real problem, because for the most part they were cracking wise and in sync. Did it get monotonous? Surely. Did I begin to wonder whether there was a gravitational field there? No doubt. Did almost every single one of us begin to mutter some variant of 'It's. Only. Across. The Frigging. HALL.' the longer the situation carried on? I think so, right? Especially since every obvious avenue of comedy in the situation was side-stepped.

But the refusal to have Lenny move on- despite increasing scrutiny from all sorts of sources- suggests that this, again, is not a commercial decision. The writers are stuck in the way they write Lenny- specifically, in the way they write Penny. They stopped even trying to write for poor Leonard around 'Champagne', and that was the first proper episode he'd had in a very, very long time. In their heads, they see Lenny as a vindication of poor, bullied Leonard, getting the free-spirited hottie. But the catch is that once you have Penny settle down and be happy, she loses much of her appeal for the writers. So contentment and fulfilment always seem juuuuuust out of reach for Penny. How many times have one of us said 'For the love of God, let Penny find a job she likes'? And I think it's a related issue. Penny's unlocalised angst and dissatisfaction keep her, still, tantalisingly out of reach. How do you catch a cloud and pin it down, and all that. Of course, once you realise that Penny's angst is wheeled out intermittently, is never resolved, and basically is only told through the lens of how it affects her relationship with Leonard, you kind of lose interest with it.

How does that explain the not moving out? From a plot perspective, it doesn't, honestly. You could have this tired dynamic play out in exactly the same way, whether or not Lenny were in their own place. As @Tensor points out, the plots in the latter half of the season would have been basically unaffected by Lenny moving out. I think it's a visceral reaction. @djsurrey's explanation about superstition is the best one I've seen, honestly.

 

You´re totally right in this @wowbagger.

I also think the writers are stuck how they write Lenny, and when they tries to write a Lenny story it´s mostly crap and/or unrealistic. 

9 hours ago, rachelshamyfan said:

Personally imo I don't think the beginning of season 9 was written well for shamy, from earworm it was much better, I just don't see anything bad about how Lenny were shown but again that's jmo

 

i´m not overly impressed of that Penny suddenly doesn´t know her husbands birthday.The Lennys finance situation is another story that is poorly written and not to mention the wedding that was called on one site on the net "the worst wedding in TV history". 

Edited May 26, 2016 by Lagernisse