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In Memoriam: Mike (walnutcowboy) has passed away

[Spoilers] Discussion Topic: Season 9


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2 minutes ago, camelliayao said:

In that case they should exchange orders of the two episodes...Otherwise it'll be like Shamy know to communicate in one episode and forget how to do it in the next.

Thing is even couples who have been together for some time or would consider communication to be a strong point don't always get it right. In a perfect world they would be honest with each other and communicate but that does't always happen. I actually see it as pretty normal, perhaps the old Shamy failed to communicate a lot more frequently than most couples and it remains to be seen if they have improved on that front.

What I will agree with however in this particular episode is that the conversation Amy had with Beverly about both of them failing badly in terms of communicating should have been with Sheldon. I know he was in a rush but she should have got up out of her chair dragged him into the hallway and pointed out where they both failed and her concerns about not communicating. It would for me have been a more powerful lesson then Sheldon's actual rushed apology.

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9 minutes ago, April said:

Yes, after Stuart yelled at him Sheldon sent him to Amy to apologise - I'm not sure how that indicates he knew what was wrong without an explanation when the things Stuart yelled at him were the explanation, namely that it was inconsiderate of him sending Stuart to go shopping with Amy. He knows what went wrong because Stuart literally yelled it at him.

What Stuart yelled was "Sheldon, you are the most inconsiderate person I have ever met in my entire life. Where do you get off sending me to shop with your girlfriend?" and "You’re darn right it’s fair play, you selfish jerk.

To me all Stuart showed was how mad Amy was. If Sheldon didn't know what he did was sort of wrong, he would be like "Why? I came up with such an efficient way to deal with the problem. Why is it wrong to hire someone to go shopping with my girlfriend?" Amy got angry a lot in the past, most of the time Sheldon didn't have a single clue why. Thus he felt no need to apologize. 

Edited by camelliayao

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Sheldon just thought that Amy wanted someone to go shopping with her. He knows he'd be a "pain" if he went, so he got someone to go with her. Very simple.

As to comparing going to this movie and the Star Wars movie, well.... there was something more important to do (for Sheldon) than go to opening night of Star Wars. Shopping with his girlfriend is not as high up as deflowering her (or himself) :) .

Edited by BigBang15

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16 minutes ago, camelliayao said:

Still in that case they should exchange the orders of the two episodes, with the Line Substitution episode being "A relationship requires work", and the The Fermentation Bifurcation episode being "Sheldon and Amy learning".

Again (sort of out of order with the rest of the posts...), the fact that the more communicative episode preceeded that in which they needed to talk things through more gives a very good (in my opinion) example of how a relationship is always a work in progress.  Sometimes it takes us a few times before we learn our lesson.  Sometimes even then we forget to communicate each and every time.  I like the ordering of the episodes.....

Also, I'm not sure Sheldon is all the way there yet.  I think his apology was not entirely sincere as (and it has been a while since I've seen the episode so forgive me if I'm mis-remembering) he equated Amy/Mad = Sheldon/apology....

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Sheldon made a choice of doing what was more important to him. Amy lost out. Plain and simple.  He also knew since Beverly was there he could get away with it. Could you imagine what Beverly would of said if Leonard did the same to Penny?

Edited by Chrismo

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6 minutes ago, Jonny83 said:

Thing is even couples who have been together for some time or would consider communication to be a strong point don't always get it right. In a perfect world they would be honest with each other and communicate but that does't always happen. I actually see it as pretty normal, perhaps the old Shamy failed to communicate a lot more frequently than most couples and it remains to be seen if they have improved on that front.

What I will agree with however in this particular episode is that the conversation Amy had with Beverly about both of them failing badly in terms of communicating should have been with Sheldon. I know he was in a rush but she should have got up out of her chair dragged him into the hallway and pointed out where they both failed and her concerns about not communicating. It would for me have been a more powerful lesson then Sheldon's actual rushed apology.

I agree that couples don't always get it right when it comes to communications, except we don't get to watch Shamy for every moment of their life. If we can observe Shamy 24/7, it'll be totally fine that sometimes they have good communications, other times they don't. But what we are shown is just a small part of their life, some typical moments. So with the limited time, I think every plot should service a purpose. If the writers want to address how important communication is bewteen couples, they should let them have a conflict due to poor communications (9x23), then show us how they learn from their mistakes (9x22), not the other way around.

Or, if 9x23 was intended to be a small conflict between them, nothing serious, they shouldn't have had Amy say that "Just when I think we’re making progress in our relationship, we revert to our old patterns where thoughts and feelings go unexpressed" line. Because with this line, the writers raised the small conflict to a higher level to be a big problem, and then as always, they just left it there.

Second paragraph, totally agree.

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4 minutes ago, Chrismo said:

Sheldon made a choice of doing what was more important to him. Amy lost out. Plain and simple.  He also knew since Beverly was there he could get away with it. Could you imagine what Beverly would of said if Leonard did the same to Penny?

I don't think Beverly would notice, or care if it were Leonard/Penny....

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10 minutes ago, hokie3457 said:

Again (sort of out of order with the rest of the posts...), the fact that the more communicative episode preceeded that in which they needed to talk things through more gives a very good (in my opinion) example of how a relationship is always a work in progress.  Sometimes it takes us a few times before we learn our lesson.  Sometimes even then we forget to communicate each and every time.  I like the ordering of the episodes.....

Also, I'm not sure Sheldon is all the way there yet.  I think his apology was not entirely sincere as (and it has been a while since I've seen the episode so forgive me if I'm mis-remembering) he equated Amy/Mad = Sheldon/apology....

Yes, I agree 9x23 shows us how a relationship is always a work in progress. But what's missing in that episodes is the "work" part. Shamy had conflicts due to poor communications. We get it. Also Amy realized the problem. Good. Then what happened? Nothing. They didn't try to communicate or at least express their feelings. 

Like I said, I would feel so much better about the episode if it ends with Shamy having a talk or if there's a pick up about this episode in the future.

Sheldon's apology is not sincere at all, as he calls it "nonsense". He indeed is not there yet, which is another reason why I think the episode should've had ended with Amy talking to him. 

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I just don't understand why was there a big conflict about that situation at all. Going shopping was obviously not one of the things that Sheldon and Amy would enjoy doing together. They are not on the same footing about that "social activity". I doubt that it held much emotional attachment to Amy-I may be wrong, but I just can't see why. And if Amy was upset that Sheldon hired Stuart to go shopping with her, why hire Stuart to confront Sheldon instead of doing so herself? And why would neither of them discuss it beforehead (the lack of which started the conflict) instead of Amy expecting Sheldon to go shopping with her? There are far better things that they could be doing together and I doubt Amy didn't go shopping alone-or with someone else-before. Besides, all the girls appear to be on a good footing with Stuart.

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39 minutes ago, camelliayao said:

What Stuart yelled was "Sheldon, you are the most inconsiderate person I have ever met in my entire life. Where do you get off sending me to shop with your girlfriend?" and "You’re darn right it’s fair play, you selfish jerk.

To me all Stuart showed was how mad Amy was. If Sheldon didn't know what he did was sort of wrong, he would be like "Why? I came up with such an efficient way to deal with the problem. Why is it wrong to hire someone to go shopping with my girlfriend?" Amy got angry a lot in the past, most of the time Sheldon didn't have a single clue why. Thus he felt no need to apologize. 

The bold parts were pretty damn blunt about what was wrong. And we don't even know what else Stuart might have yelled at him because the scene then cuts immediately to the next. But the point that Amy didn't like that he send Stuart to go shopping with her was made in those few lines.

And I guess we can chalk it up to progress that he realises he fucked up pretty quickly and doesn't argue at length like he would have done before the breakup. Babysteps, I guess.

5 minutes ago, Mislav said:

I just don't understand why was there a big conflict about that situation at all. Going shopping was obviously not one of the things that Sheldon and Amy would enjoy doing together. They are not on the same footing about that "social activity". I doubt that it held much emotional attachment to Amy-I may be wrong, but I just can't see why. And if Amy was upset that Sheldon hired Stuart to go shopping with her, why hire Stuart to confront Sheldon instead of doing so herself? And why would neither of them discuss it beforehead (the lack of which started the conflict) instead of Amy expecting Sheldon to go shopping with her? There are far better things that they could be doing together and I doubt Amy didn't go shopping alone-or with someone else-before. Besides, all the girls appear to be on a good footing with Stuart.

TBH I think in part it was because they thought the "hire person to do errands/stand in line for you" thing was funny and the other part was probably so that they could have Amy ramble on about something to Beverly. She's always had this uncanny ability to get people to word-vomit all sorts of things that upset them and I think having such a minor conflict was a quick way to get to that point. Cause from then on the story focus circles right back towards the girls with Penny desperately wanting to bond with Beverly but instead Amy gets all the praise and attention.

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45 minutes ago, Mislav said:

I just don't understand why was there a big conflict about that situation at all. Going shopping was obviously not one of the things that Sheldon and Amy would enjoy doing together. They are not on the same footing about that "social activity". I doubt that it held much emotional attachment to Amy-I may be wrong, but I just can't see why. And if Amy was upset that Sheldon hired Stuart to go shopping with her, why hire Stuart to confront Sheldon instead of doing so herself? And why would neither of them discuss it beforehead (the lack of which started the conflict) instead of Amy expecting Sheldon to go shopping with her? There are far better things that they could be doing together and I doubt Amy didn't go shopping alone-or with someone else-before. Besides, all the girls appear to be on a good footing with Stuart.

And if Amy was upset that Sheldon hired Stuart to go shopping with her, why hire Stuart to confront Sheldon instead of doing so herself?

- She hired Stuart to "let Sheldon have it" because she was mad.

And why would neither of them discuss it beforehead (the lack of which started the conflict) instead of Amy expecting Sheldon to go shopping with her?

- Apparently they did discuss beforehand and Sheldon agreed to go shopping with her. Otherwise she wouldn't be expecting to see Sheldon in the car. Also as she complained to Beverly, " If he didn’t want to go shopping with me, why didn’t he just say so?". Hence Sheldon didn't say so.

There are far better things that they could be doing together and I doubt Amy didn't go shopping alone-or with someone else-before. Besides, all the girls appear to be on a good footing with Stuart.

- The problem is not shopping or Stuart, it's their communication. Sheldon could've just texted Amy that he couldn't make it. It's that simple, which is also why I think this episode is stupid. The writers were just trying to pick them against each other for no good reason.

 

26 minutes ago, April said:

The bold parts were pretty damn blunt about what was wrong. And we don't even know what else Stuart might have yelled at him because the scene then cuts immediately to the next. But the point that Amy didn't like that he send Stuart to go shopping with her was made in those few lines.

And I guess we can chalk it up to progress that he realises he fucked up pretty quickly and doesn't argue at length like he would have done before the breakup. Babysteps, I guess.

The bold parts were saying "hiring someone to go shopping with your girlfriend is wrong". But Stuart didn't tell him why it was wrong. Yes, any normal person would understand why it was wrong. But Sheldon is no normal person. He didn't understand why he should listen when Amy shared her exciting news about work. He didn't know to take Amy's side when Will and Amy had a conflict. He didn't understand why it's wrong to apply colonizing another planet without telling Amy. He didn't get it why it's not Ok to mention the Flash when kissing even after Penny explained it to him. Like I said, if he didn't know it was wrong beforehand (at least on some level), he would probably be like "Why? What's the difference between you go shopping with her and me go shopping with her?" While in fact he decided to let Stuart go to apologize to Amy pretty quickly (with Stuart going back and forth between them and he still was able to catch the movie). So I'd say he knew it was wrong beforehand.

That, or Sheldon didn't think he was wrong at all, even at the end of this episode. He apologized just to get himself out of trouble.

Edited by camelliayao
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2 hours ago, Stephen Hawking said:

The odd thing about The Line Substitution Solution is that, in the previous episode (The Fermentation Bifurcation), Sheldon and Amy did separate things, with no angst or conflict.

Quite ! I don't think there has been a time when they've done everything together anyway. The issue in 09.23 was that Sheldon had agreed to go shopping with Amy. How she had 'made' him go, what she was buying and why she wanted him with her, we're not told. If Sheldon had really minded going he would have said so and not gone.

What's not clear is why Sheldon didn't just get Stuart to stand in the line in the first place as Howard suggested and Sheldon eventually did. Stuart was straightforwardly honest when he said it wasn't that Sheldon was avoiding spending time with Amy, merely that there was a long line he'd rather stand in. He has no desire to cover up for Sheldon and make an excuse : he fancies Amy himself. Amy felt let down. She took it that Sheldon hadn't wanted to go with her but hadn't felt able to tell her why and she was spooked, thinking the relationship had gone into reverse. Whatever she was going shopping for either can't have been urgent or was something she needed Sheldon for because she didn't go. She paid Stuart to tit-for-tat on her behalf and went to whinge to Beverly instead. Luckily Beverly talked her round.

Why the other men let Sheldon do such a crass thing I don't know.  If he really believed the etiquette of lines and keeping promises were equal and a substitute for either was sufficient, why did none of them, not even Leonard, put him straight ? Perhaps they felt annoyed at Sheldon's initial delusion of grandeur that his and Amy's plans were enough to stop them all having a chance of tickets and they wanted to get him into trouble ?

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Quite ! I don't think there has been a time when they've done everything together anyway. The issue in 09.23 was that Sheldon had agreed to go shopping with Amy. How she had 'made' him go, what she was buying and why she wanted him with her, we're not told. If Sheldon had really minded going he would have said so and not gone.

What's not clear is why Sheldon didn't just get Stuart to stand in the line in the first place as Howard suggested and Sheldon eventually did. Stuart was straightforwardly honest when he said it wasn't that Sheldon was avoiding spending time with Amy, merely that there was a long line he'd rather stand in. He has no desire to cover up for Sheldon and make an excuse : he fancies Amy himself. Amy felt let down. She took it that Sheldon hadn't wanted to go with her but hadn't felt able to tell her why and she was spooked, thinking the relationship had gone into reverse. Whatever she was going shopping for either can't have been urgent or was something she needed Sheldon for because she didn't go. She paid Stuart to tit-for-tat on her behalf and went to whinge to Beverly instead. Luckily Beverly talked her round.

Why the other men let Sheldon do such a crass thing I don't know.  If he really believed the etiquette of lines and keeping promises were equal and a substitute for either was sufficient, why did none of them, not even Leonard, put him straight ? Perhaps they felt annoyed at Sheldon's initial delusion of grandeur that his and Amy's plans were enough to stop them all having a chance of tickets and they wanted to get him into trouble ?

And why would the others want to get Sheldon in trouble? He does that himself and as usual ppls try to blame others when Sheldon messes up. Maybe they just didn't care and I wouldn't blame them because they know what he is like and are tired of trying to get through to him when he comes up with his ridiculous plans.

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But still, going back to the whole continuity thing. There are so many examples of them revisiting parts of the show that most people would just assume be episodic events. For example, Penny's car that broke down in Season 7, we got a scene where Leonard buys her a new one. There's also the incident with the Mars Rover and him flipping it around and eventually getting in trouble. There's no reason they couldn't come back to this ESPECIALLY since Amy and Beverly's conversations after Sheldon's "apology" made seem certain.

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4 hours ago, Mislav said:

I just don't understand why was there a big conflict about that situation at all. Going shopping was obviously not one of the things that Sheldon and Amy would enjoy doing together. They are not on the same footing about that "social activity". I doubt that it held much emotional attachment to Amy-I may be wrong, but I just can't see why. And if Amy was upset that Sheldon hired Stuart to go shopping with her, why hire Stuart to confront Sheldon instead of doing so herself? And why would neither of them discuss it beforehead (the lack of which started the conflict) instead of Amy expecting Sheldon to go shopping with her? There are far better things that they could be doing together and I doubt Amy didn't go shopping alone-or with someone else-before. Besides, all the girls appear to be on a good footing with Stuart.

Yes, what you bring up is interesting but that doesn't excuse Sheldon's actions despite the reactions of the other characters.

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3 hours ago, Tonstar17 said:

And why would the others want to get Sheldon in trouble? He does that himself and as usual ppls try to blame others when Sheldon messes up. Maybe they just didn't care and I wouldn't blame them because they know what he is like and are tired of trying to get through to him when he comes up with his ridiculous plans.

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I think the guys probably suggested him to go shopping with Amy but he wouldn't listen to them. The bold part, totally agree. 

 

Edited by camelliayao
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1 hour ago, CrazyShamyFan said:

But still, going back to the whole continuity thing. There are so many examples of them revisiting parts of the show that most people would just assume be episodic events. For example, Penny's car that broke down in Season 7, we got a scene where Leonard buys her a new one.

Both those things happen in 7.17.

1 hour ago, CrazyShamyFan said:

There's also the incident with the Mars Rover and him flipping it around and eventually getting in trouble.

What trouble?

1 hour ago, CrazyShamyFan said:

There's no reason they couldn't come back to this ESPECIALLY since Amy and Beverly's conversations after Sheldon's "apology" made seem certain.

Hows that?

I think it is fair to say usually we never know when things are going to come up again. One can presume some things get dealt with off screen. I think the writers intention was to use the Sheldon/Amy situation for some comic relief in an otherwise tense episode. The actual tension being primarily between Beverly and Penny. Sending Stuart back and forth was nothing more that a gag in this episode in my opinion (like Penny incapable of handing glue in 7.07 -- Penny and the potato clock questions in 6.22).

Edited by djsurrey
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I think you guys give Sheldon way too much credit lol. This is Sheldon. He is never going to be the perfect boyfriend. Hell he well prob be clueless to the end. Just the way it is.  Trying to excuse Sheldon's actions, as Sheldon and Amy don't like shopping. Does not excuse Sheldon's behaviour. But this is a long running commentary. Sheldon being selfish, and no one calling him out for it, let alone Amy. Like in S9 finalie even Amy treating Sheldon like her son. Play with your phone. IS that dynamic ever going to change? I Don't know.  They well always do what is the most funniest. Sheldon being clueless, and Stuart being the messenger is funny. Amy having a heart to heart With Sheldon isin't 

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10 hours ago, camelliayao said:

And if Amy was upset that Sheldon hired Stuart to go shopping with her, why hire Stuart to confront Sheldon instead of doing so herself?

- She hired Stuart to "let Sheldon have it" because she was mad.

And why would neither of them discuss it beforehead (the lack of which started the conflict) instead of Amy expecting Sheldon to go shopping with her?

- Apparently they did discuss beforehand and Sheldon agreed to go shopping with her. Otherwise she wouldn't be expecting to see Sheldon in the car. Also as she complained to Beverly, " If he didn’t want to go shopping with me, why didn’t he just say so?". Hence Sheldon didn't say so.

There are far better things that they could be doing together and I doubt Amy didn't go shopping alone-or with someone else-before. Besides, all the girls appear to be on a good footing with Stuart.

- The problem is not shopping or Stuart, it's their communication. Sheldon could've just texted Amy that he couldn't make it. It's that simple, which is also why I think this episode is stupid. The writers were just trying to pick them against each other for no good reason.

 

The bold parts were saying "hiring someone to go shopping with your girlfriend is wrong". But Stuart didn't tell him why it was wrong. Yes, any normal person would understand why it was wrong. But Sheldon is no normal person. He didn't understand why he should listen when Amy shared her exciting news about work. He didn't know to take Amy's side when Will and Amy had a conflict. He didn't understand why it's wrong to apply colonizing another planet without telling Amy. He didn't get it why it's not Ok to mention the Flash when kissing even after Penny explained it to him. Like I said, if he didn't know it was wrong beforehand (at least on some level), he would probably be like "Why? What's the difference between you go shopping with her and me go shopping with her?" While in fact he decided to let Stuart go to apologize to Amy pretty quickly (with Stuart going back and forth between them and he still was able to catch the movie). So I'd say he knew it was wrong beforehand.

That, or Sheldon didn't think he was wrong at all, even at the end of this episode. He apologized just to get himself out of trouble.

And that is the problem. We don't know. We are just told that Amy wanted Sheldon to go shopping with her, and he didn't. And here comes the conflict. And when she gets upset, she resorts to hiring Stuart, which is the very same thing she got mad at Sheldon about. And it all relates to... going shopping.

5 hours ago, camelliayao said:

I think the guys probably suggested him to go shopping with Amy but he wouldn't listen to them. The bold part, totally agree. 

 

I can't seriously fathom the whole set up because it is way too trivial, for me, to be taken seriously. I honestly can't envision Shamy getting into a big argument about going SHOPPING. I find it way out of character for Amy, and Sheldon who is usually very blunt when it comes to such things. In case they did make arrangements before, which we don't know. She then gets angry at Sheldon for hiring Stuart to go shopping with her, then hires Stuart to insult Sheldon while she talks to Beverly.

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The substitution episode..oy. I am one of the people who thought that the Shamy fight was obviously and lazily contrived by writers who could not be bothered to come up with an organic conflict.

a ) The shopping. Okay, hand on heart, I do not know women-outside dated comedies/stand up routines- who drag their menfolk shopping with them unless they are holidaying somewhere and don't have a way to contact each other and can't be separated, or if the partner's presence is necessary to the decision. Like they're shopping for a pet/ something for a shared domicile/ something else that also affects the partner. Sheldon and Amy were not holidaying, they don't share a house and-well, where is Giuseppe? I miss that little scamp. It needed to be shopping so that we could 'forgive' Sheldon for skipping it, without considering 'hang on, but why would Amy even WANT Sheldon of all people to go shopping with her?' More to the point, if Sheldon needed to be present at the shopping, we'd obviously say 'WTF?' about his handing it off to Stuart. But then, if he needed to be there...

b ) the exciting late nineteenth century invention of the telephone. A device with which Sheldon had already proven himself to be familiar when contacting Amy to discuss changes in plans. There is no obvious reason that Sheldon could not have picked up the damn phone and told Amy that he didn't want to go shopping because he was in queue. Yes, Stuart got his brief moment in the sun, which was all very nice. But 'because the writers wanted to' is not an adequate reason, if your plot device confuses more than it illuminates.

one obvious-ish explanation-which would have silenced at least my latter objection-is that Sheldon is an inveterate early adopter. If the show had spun Sheldon's excitement about small -scale personal services outsourcing, that may have been one thing. Although I would also have rolled my eyes and snorted 'what, you've never heard of a personal assistant before, show?'. So.....actually, I take it back. I would have found this plotline wincingly stupid, however much lipstick the show put on it.

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That was not the point Mislav. The point was Not relying on Sheldon, and Sheldon not making Amy an priority again. Amy is a girl, and it is not just the shopping but spending time together. Sheldon diddnt want that, so he  hired Stuart instead. Amy diddnt hire Stuart to insult Sheldon, Amy told Stuart to tell Sheldon she is not okay with what Sheldon did. And fair enough, Sheldon per usual was being a dick. I don't know why Amy puts up with him.

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5 hours ago, 3ku11 said:

That was not the point Mislav. The point was Not relying on Sheldon, and Sheldon not making Amy an priority again. Amy is a girl, and it is not just the shopping but spending time together. Sheldon diddnt want that, so he  hired Stuart instead. Amy diddnt hire Stuart to insult Sheldon, Amy told Stuart to tell Sheldon she is not okay with what Sheldon did. And fair enough, Sheldon per usual was being a dick. I don't know why Amy puts up with him.

Apparently, Amy is now the kind of girl who wants Sheldon, of all people, to go shopping with her, and we are talking about a simple shopping trip, not meant to provide any crutial supplies or a pet or something that relates to their relationship (would you want to go shopping with Sheldon, seriously?), and she gets angry if she doesn't get that. She also doesn't even confront Sheldon herself when she gets angry-she hires Stuart instead, even though "hiring Stuart" was the basis of her anger in the first place. And, finally, if Amy can go away while Sheldon is sick because taking care of him would be tedious, why would there even be a conflict over Sheldon and Amy not going shopping together? She could have spent days together with him, just the two of them LOL. More importantly, why would Amy even find that important, since I doubt Penny, for example, would insist on Leonard going shopping with her all the time and she is (supposed to be), well, more into the "usual" care-free things than Amy. It is the problem of characterization. It has gone from two friends breaking things off over a disagreement about scientic theory (season four) to them breaking up for real (season nine), which had been initiated by Sheldon's mind happening to drift off to Flash while MAKING OUT with Amy and him being honest to her about that, to the two of them having an argument over going shopping without even communicating directly at first.

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