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jenafan

Views of Feminism Today

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So, I bit the bullet and decided to open up this topic for discussion for those who want to discuss their views of feminism, its definition, and how they feel it affects their viewing of TBBT.  This thread is for those who want to express themselves openly without feeling they have to stay on the topic of a particular character or ship.  

Mayim published an article on GrokNation where she addresses the language and cultural assumptions about sex.  Reading commentary over the past several days has made me realize that my views on feminism, especially in relationships, are quite skewed.  Perhaps others feel the same way.    

The purpose of this thread is to gain perspective, not to try to convince another to change his/her view.   Please keep the conversations civil and respect each other's opinions .   It's okay to defend one's position, but please do so respectfully without attacking or insulting another for having a different POV.

Edited by jenafan
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3 hours ago, jlove said:

I am sure she (Mayim) would not gleefully join in on the conversations we have had, and I do get some of what she says. Specifially I LOVE how protective and loving she is to the characters she and Jim have helped bring to life.  However, I am a bit more pragmatic about some of what she discussed than she is.  Maybe it is, in part, because she and I, I think, see feminism a bit differently.  In any case, I'm going to be more speific and descriptive than she was (though not in a vulgar way in this case I think), so if you don't want to read a frank disussion the mechanics of sex, skip on by.

Like I said, I get what Mayim is saying, but I understand why being "good" in sex is more often a question people pose about men, even as she said, when we are talking about 2 virgins.  The simple facts of biology mean that most of the time, most men engaging in intercourse (willingly by choice, especially with someone that they care deeply about) will have an orgasm.  Again speaking stereotypically (based on biology), this usually happens much more quickly and easily for men and the simple act of penetrative intercourse alone is typically enough.  And no, orgasm is not the only criteria for enjoying sex, but it is sort of part and parcel of the experience..for men especially that is what it usually builds to and ends with.  Women, however, are a different story.  So when people ask "if he was good" it is of course a less-frank way of asking if he took the time/effort/whatever to do more than required for his own orgasm and made an effort to help his partner achieve the same thing.  We have all heard the jokes, or heard from someone in real life about the quick "he gets off in no time and she's left there unsatisfied never even having had a chance time-wise to get there herself" experience.  But biologically speaking it is much less likely that those roles are reversed (note I don't say impossible, just less likely).  Not because more men are callous jerks who don't care about satisfying their partners and thus more women are left in the lurch, but just for simple mechanical reasons.  So in the sense that "good at sex = partner orgasming" we have much less reason to wonder "if she was good" (as Mayim says) than if he was.  The question is really multi-faceted when asked of a man: did he 1) know that his partner might need something more/longer/different than he himself and 2) did he use that knowledge and help meet that need?

Of course that in and of itself is a very narrow definition of what makes for good sex and I don't believe in any way that's the only criteria, but when people ask in interviews, or in real life, I think that is the real meaning behind that question.  People think asking "Was he good?" is more delicate than "Did she have an orgasm?" and they're probably right.  Let's just not conflate the two questions and intentions, which is what I think Mayim is (perhaps inadvertently) doing.

I absolutely loved every bit of this, because you took the words out of my mouth.

As a woman, I enjoy the beauty and wonderful things that come from being a female, including being the receiver of gift(s) from my partner. :shy:  I don't see it as degrading or demoralizing at all.  

I think men who think about their partners over themselves have a great deal of pressure today when it comes to sex, feeling they have to meet some kind of criteria on size, expectations, etc. in order to perform.   If they make it good, I do feel they deserve the credit, because it is not a selfless, but a purposeful act.  Nor is it easy.    I guess that is why, even as a female, I tend to have more empathy from the male perspective.  

It seems to me that the role of the male in a relationship has fallen by the wayside because the world has changed to where some woman perceive anything that a male might want to do (i.e. giving his daughter away at a wedding, opening a car door, wanting her to have a long hair, wanting to take credit for his efforts in pleasing her) as an offense to their sex or a threat to their independence.   It seems the Christian values I was raised by are dying out where I was taught that women are the weaker vessel, not because they are less or not equal to men, but because of our make up.  We are weaker physically and tend to be more emotionally vulnerable.   I was raised to believe that as a woman, it is my job to compliment and support my partner, not to disrespect and not try to compete or demoralize him.   This does not make us stupid, unequal, or a slave.    I think it is an honorable position.

Edited by jenafan
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Just now, lennyx3 said:

I only see original posts from jenafan.

Did I miss something?

I just opened the thread a couple of minutes ago, starting with a response from the Shamy thread.   Others have not hopped on board the thread, yet.

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If I may make a suggestion.  Perhaps ask a specific question that you would like discussion on.    The topic of feminism seems a bit broad, and I think people don't know where to begin.

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24 minutes ago, nibbler747 said:

If I may make a suggestion.  Perhaps ask a specific question that you would like discussion on.    The topic of feminism seems a bit broad, and I think people don't know where to begin.

It started a couple of days ago when I was asked what I meant when I said I believed in women's rights but didn't think feminism belonged in a relationship.   I'm not saying that women should be dominated or be slaves to their partners, but I don't understand why some feel it is wrong to be submissive to one's headship, and if they don't agree, why partner up or marry in the first place?

I was going to let the issue go, but then when Mayim posted her article, it sounded to me like even being a born a woman with her anatomy is considered degrading because she "receives" a man, and how dare a man take responsibility or credit for selflessly pleasing a woman by "taking her" upon consent.

I thought the bed scene last night was extremely beautiful, and many of us are going to expand the scenes in our FF, but apparently it's offensive to even try to imagine the details or that Sheldon did a good job.   Yes, intimacy can be very tender, but it can still be extremely passionate and still beautiful.

On a couple of posts some remarks were made about being given away at a wedding is disgusting.  A man not wanting his wife to cut her hair was wrong, etc.    Long hair has always been an identifying mark of femininity and men love the look and feel of it.    Who can blame them?   I'm not saying women should not cut their hair, but why is it offensive if a partner has an issue with it.

Why can't we give men the dignity they deserve?   I just don't understand any of it.   It is because I don't understand that I want to know how others think and feel so I can better understand, not to change their mind or mine.

Edited by jenafan

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Sorry there, I got a bit busy at work, and then I wanted to read Mayim's article before replying.

First I haven't watched last night's episode yet (cause I was at a work Christmas party...but hopefully will tonight).  I'm looking forward to it.

What feminism means to me?  Well I think it is to be able to make decisions and choices that make sense for you, without expectation that you have to fit a set stereotype.  What makes sense for one person, may not make sense for another.  But we should be able to make our own choices freely.  That's what feminism is to me.

In relationships, there may be a partner that may be more dominant or as you put it in your message above "headship".  Now I don't think it's always the man in that position, and I don't think it's always the woman in that position.  Every couple is different.  I think the key is to for both partners to support each other and feel comfortable in their position/role in the relationship.  They should be able to freely speak their minds and discuss.  I wouldn't say it's necessary for one partner to be submissive.  Ideally it should be a partnership.

I didn't quite read Mayim's article the same way you did.  I guess she was making an analogy to our anatomy as being the "takers or recievers".  I don't think she was saying that having that type of anatomy was degrading though.  She did say that female anatomy was used as an insult, but really male anatomy is also used as an insult.

I like Mayim, I find her interesting and I like that she tries to engage discussion on various topics.  BUT, I would have to say, I often don't completely agree with her, or find I have a less "extreme" viewpoint.  Sometimes I think these questions, was he good, was she ravished, were more meant in a light hearted matter.  Like here is a couple that waited til their 30's to have sex, people are interested in their reactions!  So I think sometimes, she overanalyzes and takes the fun out of things.

I'd like to think of the couple as giving themselves to each other.  Not one taking the other.  Perhaps that's how it was viewed or is viewed by some people, but I don't think that way.

I don't think Feminism is Men vs. Women or Women vs. Men.  It's about equality.  I love and respect men.  And I would expect the same in return.

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1 hour ago, nibbler747 said:

<snip>

What feminism means to me?  Well I think it is to be able to make decisions and choices that make sense for you, without expectation that you have to fit a set stereotype.  What makes sense for one person, may not make sense for another.  But we should be able to make our own choices freely.  That's what feminism is to me.

In relationships, there may be a partner that may be more dominant or as you put it in your message above "headship".  Now I don't think it's always the man in that position, and I don't think it's always the woman in that position.  Every couple is different.  I think the key is to for both partners to support each other and feel comfortable in their position/role in the relationship.  They should be able to freely speak their minds and discuss.  I wouldn't say it's necessary for one partner to be submissive.  Ideally it should be a partnership.

I didn't quite read Mayim's article the same way you did.  I guess she was making an analogy to our anatomy as being the "takers or recievers".  I don't think she was saying that having that type of anatomy was degrading though.  She did say that female anatomy was used as an insult, but really male anatomy is also used as an insult.

I like Mayim, I find her interesting and I like that she tries to engage discussion on various topics.  BUT, I would have to say, I often don't completely agree with her, or find I have a less "extreme" viewpoint.  Sometimes I think these questions, was he good, was she ravished, were more meant in a light hearted matter.  Like here is a couple that waited til their 30's to have sex, people are interested in their reactions!  So I think sometimes, she overanalyzes and takes the fun out of things.

I'd like to think of the couple as giving themselves to each other.  Not one taking the other.  Perhaps that's how it was viewed or is viewed by some people, but I don't think that way.

I don't think Feminism is Men vs. Women or Women vs. Men.  It's about equality.  I love and respect men.  And I would expect the same in return.

I enjoyed reading this.

I think this is where I am getting my misconception from.   Sometimes I have misunderstood feminism to be about men vs. woman, where equality is not the goal, but the desire to prove a woman is above, better, or doesn't need a man.

Every ship needs a captain, and I see a lot of partnerships go wrong because the male and the female in the relationship are competing for the same role as head, are pit against each other for control, etc.   As you said, it is a partnership, but I have always been taught that in a heterosexual relationship, that lead is the male. Which is why, in this culture, it is so important for a woman to choose the right mate, because she needs to determine if that person is someone she wants to be her "head."     I celebrate the man in my life and give him credit for my success as a woman because of the way he has taken care of me emotionally and physically.   Where I have been weak, he has been strong and vice versa.

Regarding the bedroom, I was taught and shown that neither has authority over their own bodies.    It's a negotiation between the partnership to either submit to the needs/wants of the other or mutually agree on another appropriate time, taking the other, rather than oneself into consideration.    It is a negotiation, and the give and receive is by mutual consent.  It's not to be earned by the other, withheld as punishment, or used to gain favor on another matter.   However, as a man tends to want sex more (again another stereotype, because mine is in fact demi-sexual), I've always believed this is the reason women were gifted with the ability to have multiples to compensate that men are pretty much guaranteed theirs every time.   The best way for a man to get sex is to be respectful, loving, and selfless to his woman.   By doing so, she will be more willing to give.   I think this is by design, as I believe in creation, not evolution.   Henceforth, I do wholeheartedly buy into the concept that a woman gives, while the male takes.

I get that in some cultures, that option to choose is not available and that women are treated poorly, dominated, and no better than slaves to their men.  However, I cannot speak for them, but only what I know here in the USA.   So, my statements are not meant to discredit their situation.

Regarding stereotypes, this issue confuses me as well.    Women and Men are different.   We are physically weaker, curvier, geared toward being more emotional, better multi-taskers, and are the child-bearers.   Men are physically stronger, muscular, practical thinkers wanting to fix things, solely focused, and care-takers.   Again, the opposite sexes are supposed to compliment each other, not compete.   The fact that some want to reverse those roles confounds me.

It was mentioned by someone that it would be degrading for Amy to give up her career to have babies and possibly want to stay and home and take care of them.    What is wrong with that?     I am a career-oriented woman with no children (not always by choice, unfortunately due to recent tragedy,) but I don't believe I would be degrading my role as an independent woman if I chose to give up that career for the sake of my role as a mother.

I enjoy being female but I love the physical, intellectual, and caring strength of men.  I love seeing them take charge, their deep voices, and their beautifully handsome form.    Even as a child, all my stuffed animals were males.   If I had ever been blessed with a child, I would have liked to have had a boy.

Nothing melts me more than seeing a man caring for his daughter(s) while Mom is away.   I think it is so endearing, that while women usually have the role of the caregiver, to see a man try and succeed at softening himself for his little girl(s) is heartwarming.   This is why I think a man giving away his daughter as a bride is not demeaning at all.  He is handing over his cherished creation to another man and entrusting him to care for her.

33 minutes ago, Kasey said:

Jena could you post a link to Mayim's post please?  I'm lazy...

http://groknation.com/hollywood/lets-talk-about-shamy-sex/

Edited by jenafan

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5 hours ago, jenafan said:

Every ship needs a captain, and I see a lot of partnerships go wrong because the male and the female in the relationship are competing for the same role as head, are pit against each other for control, etc.   As you said, it is a partnership, but I have always been taught that in a heterosexual relationship, that lead is the male. Which is why, in this culture, it is so important for a woman to choose the right mate, because she needs to determine if that person is someone she wants to be her "head."     I celebrate the man in my life and give him credit for my success as a woman because of the way he has taken care of me emotionally and physically.   Where I have been weak, he has been strong and vice versa.

Regarding the bedroom, I was taught and shown that neither has authority over their own bodies.    It's a negotiation between the partnership to either submit to the needs/wants of the other or mutually agree on another appropriate time, taking the other, rather than oneself into consideration.    It is a negotiation, and the give and receive is by mutual consent.  It's not to be earned by the other, withheld as punishment, or used to gain favor on another matter.   However, as a man tends to want sex more (again another stereotype, because mine is in fact demi-sexual), I've always believed this is the reason women were gifted with the ability to have multiples to compensate that men are pretty much guaranteed theirs every time.   The best way for a man to get sex is to be respectful, loving, and selfless to his woman.   By doing so, she will be more willing to give.   I think this is by design, as I believe in creation, not evolution.   Henceforth, I do wholeheartedly buy into the concept that a woman gives, while the male takes.

I get that in some cultures, that option to choose is not available and that women are treated poorly, dominated, and no better than slaves to their men.  However, I cannot speak for them, but only what I know here in the USA.   So, my statements are not meant to discredit their situation.

Regarding stereotypes, this issue confuses me as well.    Women and Men are different.   We are physically weaker, curvier, geared toward being more emotional, better multi-taskers, and are the child-bearers.   Men are physically stronger, muscular, practical thinkers wanting to fix things, solely focused, and care-takers.   Again, the opposite sexes are supposed to compliment each other, not compete.   The fact that some want to reverse those roles confounds me.

It was mentioned by someone that it would be degrading for Amy to give up her career to have babies and possibly want to stay and home and take care of them.    What is wrong with that?     I am a career-oriented woman with no children (not always by choice, unfortunately due to recent tragedy,) but I don't believe I would be degrading my role as an independent woman if I chose to give up that career for the sake of my role as a mother.

I enjoy being female but I love the physical, intellectual, and caring strength of men.  I love seeing them take charge, their deep voices, and their beautifully handsome form.    Even as a child, all my stuffed animals were males.   If I had ever been blessed with a child, I would have liked to have had a boy.

Nothing melts me more than seeing a man caring for his daughter(s) while Mom is away.   I think it is so endearing, that while women usually have the role of the caregiver, to see a man try and succeed at softening himself for his little girl(s) is heartwarming.   This is why I think a man giving away his daughter as a bride is not demeaning at all.  He is handing over his cherished creation to another man and entrusting him to care for her.

http://groknation.com/hollywood/lets-talk-about-shamy-sex/

Sorry that took so long.  Got home a bit late (and snuck in the BBT episode....ooooh so so sweet!)  Ok I digress.

When I read your post, what struck me is that you have a very set viewpoint of how "men" are and how "women" are.  I don't hold that same viewpoint.  You mentioned that every ship needs a captain.  I don't really see marriage that way, as one person as the dominant decision maker, and the other as the supportive partner.  I always saw it more on equal footing.  Two partners, figuring things out together.  They may disagree, sometimes one partners point may be taken, in other instances the other.  When I got married, it wasn't looking for someone to be a proper "head" for me.  I was looking for someone that I enjoyed spending time with, that had the same goals in life, someone I connected with intellectually and emotionally with.

As for the stereotypes paragraph:  A number of things bothered me.  To be called physically weaker.  Well to many people, they would be like ...duh..of course women are physically weaker.  Men and women are designed differently.  Men are larger, have larger hearts and lungs.  The word weak has a negative connotation to me.  I am physically smaller but I am not weak.  I know that was not your intention with that sentence, but I just wanted to mention that.

Your list of traits on how men and women are, seems like an unfair generalization.  To me it's like saying women are better at English and Humanities and Men are better at math and science.  Umm no.  It's so individual.  I love math and science.  Lots of men love English and the humanities.  You can't fit people in these pre-set boxes.  Oh men are analytical thinkers.  Well some men definitely are.  And some men definitely are not.  Men like to fix things.  Well women also love to fix things.    That's also individual.  Some men are the most nurturing compassionate people out there.  Some women are cold fish and don't have one ounce of compassion and caregiving.  You can't fit individuals into what society has deemed to be their "box".  You are a man:  thus you are head of the household, you are good at analytical thinking, you are single task orientated, you like to fix   that are broken, and you are the caregiver of the family.  You are a woman:  you are emotional, compassionate, can multitask etc.  Umm who says so?  Men and women alike can be terrible at everything you listed as their "box".  I hate generalizations.

I am an electrical engineer.  I love math.  I love really abstract thinking.  I love writing.  I love getting dolled up and going out.  I can multi task.  I am very analytical.  I love to build and fix things. I moved across the country, and bought my own home and car without any help.   I cry at sappy commercials. I am a musician. I am a mother.  You can't put me in a box.  I wanted a husband for companionship and love, not because I was lacking in myself and needed someone to "steer" me.  I don't want to be steered.  I want a partner.  A true partner.

On the staying home with baby point.  I am a mother of a 2 yr old boy.  I had the privilege of staying home with him for 18 months.  I think what feminism says, is that a woman has the right to make the choice EITHER way.  To go back to work OR to stay at home, and they shouldn't be shunned for it.  That a woman can make the decision that is right for her.  For some women, they are better mothers, when they are not the primary caregiver.  For other women it's the opposite.  But at least they should be able to make the choice that right for them, and not be strung up because of their decision. 

I'm really glad that you appreciate men.  I do too, I really do.  I work in an extremely male dominated field, and I absolutely love it.  The men I work with are amazing, kind,interesting, and all so different from each other.  But everything you wrote above tells me that you hold men in higher regard than women. Why?   I would have hoped that you saw them a little more evenly.  The fact that all your dolls were male is a bit telling.   You said you are proud to be a woman.  Why are there no female dolls? Do you appreciate the beauty and strength of women also? I don't get it...

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6 hours ago, nibbler747 said:

Sorry that took so long.  Got home a bit late (and snuck in the BBT episode....ooooh so so sweet!)  Ok I digress.

When I read your post, what struck me is that you have a very set viewpoint of how "men" are and how "women" are.  I don't hold that same viewpoint.  You mentioned that every ship needs a captain.  I don't really see marriage that way, as one person as the dominant decision maker, and the other as the supportive partner.  I always saw it more on equal footing.  Two partners, figuring things out together.  They may disagree, sometimes one partners point may be taken, in other instances the other.  When I got married, it wasn't looking for someone to be a proper "head" for me.  I was looking for someone that I enjoyed spending time with, that had the same goals in life, someone I connected with intellectually and emotionally with.

As for the stereotypes paragraph:  A number of things bothered me.  To be called physically weaker.  Well to many people, they would be like ...duh..of course women are physically weaker.  Men and women are designed differently.  Men are larger, have larger hearts and lungs.  The word weak has a negative connotation to me.  I am physically smaller but I am not weak.  I know that was not your intention with that sentence, but I just wanted to mention that.

Your list of traits on how men and women are, seems like an unfair generalization.  To me it's like saying women are better at English and Humanities and Men are better at math and science.  Umm no.  It's so individual.  I love math and science.  Lots of men love English and the humanities.  You can't fit people in these pre-set boxes.  Oh men are analytical thinkers.  Well some men definitely are.  And some men definitely are not.  Men like to fix things.  Well women also love to fix things.    That's also individual.  Some men are the most nurturing compassionate people out there.  Some women are cold fish and don't have one ounce of compassion and caregiving.  You can't fit individuals into what society has deemed to be their "box".  You are a man:  thus you are head of the household, you are good at analytical thinking, you are single task orientated, you like to fix   that are broken, and you are the caregiver of the family.  You are a woman:  you are emotional, compassionate, can multitask etc.  Umm who says so?  Men and women alike can be terrible at everything you listed as their "box".  I hate generalizations.

I am an electrical engineer.  I love math.  I love really abstract thinking.  I love writing.  I love getting dolled up and going out.  I can multi task.  I am very analytical.  I love to build and fix things. I moved across the country, and bought my own home and car without any help.   I cry at sappy commercials. I am a musician. I am a mother.  You can't put me in a box.  I wanted a husband for companionship and love, not because I was lacking in myself and needed someone to "steer" me.  I don't want to be steered.  I want a partner.  A true partner.

On the staying home with baby point.  I am a mother of a 2 yr old boy.  I had the privilege of staying home with him for 18 months.  I think what feminism says, is that a woman has the right to make the choice EITHER way.  To go back to work OR to stay at home, and they shouldn't be shunned for it.  That a woman can make the decision that is right for her.  For some women, they are better mothers, when they are not the primary caregiver.  For other women it's the opposite.  But at least they should be able to make the choice that right for them, and not be strung up because of their decision. 

I'm really glad that you appreciate men.  I do too, I really do.  I work in an extremely male dominated field, and I absolutely love it.  The men I work with are amazing, kind,interesting, and all so different from each other.  But everything you wrote above tells me that you hold men in higher regard than women. Why?   I would have hoped that you saw them a little more evenly.  The fact that all your dolls were male is a bit telling.   You said you are proud to be a woman.  Why are there no female dolls? Do you appreciate the beauty and strength of women also? I don't get it...

You raise some very good points here that have got me thinking. 

My views have been taught to me, and over the years of drilling, they just become ingrained.

Very quickly, I will tell you that I was raised in a male-dominated household with my father (the extreme head) and my husband in a female-one (his mother is an extreme feminist).  The contrast between the two effects me.

For me, I think some of it is psychological.  You see, I was abused by my father in many ways and removed from my parents home.  I skipped a year of school, graduated, and put myself through college.  I obtained a solid career.  I dated a lot but didn't marry until 27 to a good man.  Instead of family, we both choose career.

I've always felt I needed a man in my life.  I think instead of being bitter and angry for my upbringing, I've tried to seek acceptance in men as a replacement of what I didn't get from Dad.  When he gave me away at my wedding, it was special because it was the only time he was ever there for me. My husband can't stand him, and doesn't get why I keep in contact with him.   I don't get it either.

I will need to come back later.  I'm out most of the day today.

I will say it hurts to think I have offended you and perhaps others, but I am glad I opened this thread because I'm seeing things from another perspective I've never been given the opportunity to consider before.  Like me, my mother is a very submissive woman.  However, unlike her,  I do have a voice,  and I use it a lot.  This sometimes gets me into trouble, as my independence streak comes out.  My hubby has to contend with it,  and we butt heads.  In the end, though,  I go with his decisions when we cannot agree.

Perhaps now some can understand where my POV comes from. 

I do enjoy the strength and beauty of women.

I want to discuss more,  but I have somewhere to be...

Edited by jenafan

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1 hour ago, jenafan said:

Very quickly, I will tell you that I was raised in a male-dominated household with my father (the extreme head) and my husband in a female-one (his mother is an extreme feminist).  The contrast between the two effects me.

For me, I think some of it is psychological.  You see, I was abused by my father in many ways and removed from my parents home.  I skipped a year of school, graduated, and put myself through college.  I obtained a solid career.  I dated a lot but didn't marry until 27 to a good man.  Instead of family, we both choose career.

I've always felt I needed a man in my life.  I think instead of being bitter and angry for my upbringing, I've tried to seek acceptance in men as a replacement of what I didn't get from Dad.  When he gave me away at my wedding, it was special because it was the only time he was ever there for me. My husband can't stand him, and doesn't get why I keep in contact with him.   I don't get it either.

I will need to come back later.  I'm out most of the day today.

I will say it hurts to think I have offended you and perhaps others, but I am glad I opened this thread because I'm seeing things from another perspective I've never been given the opportunity to consider before.  Like me, my mother is a very submissive woman.  However, unlike her,  I do have a voice,  and I use it a lot.  This sometimes gets me into trouble, as my independence streak comes out.  My hubby has to contend with it,  and we butt heads.  In the end, though,  I go with his decisions when we cannot agree.

Perhaps now some can understand where my POV comes from. 

I want to discuss more,  but I have somewhere to be...

You didn't upset me, I just found your viewpoint very puzzling.  Your background story does help me understand greatly how you came about your way of thinking.  We are all painted by the experiences of our past.

I'm very sorry that you had that experience of your father hurting you.  Parents are supposed to teach, love and protect.  It makes me want to cry knowing that trust a child has for their parents got violated in the worst way.  I think all children are engrained with the desire for their parents to love and respect them.  I think it's why you hold the memory of him walking you down the aisle as a happy one.

To be honest, I treasure the memory of my father walking me down the aisle.  The man that guided and loved me my whole life was now walking me down a path to a new beginning.  I added from being a daughter and sister to also becoming a wife and eventually a mother.  It was a special moment between us.  My father passed away six months after I got married.

i didn't see the aisle as my Dad "giving me " to another man, for him to take care of me.   I guess that experience depends a lot on how you interpret it.

My father was very sick my entire life (heart disease ).  He was always worried that he could die at any moment and his wife and two daughters would be left alone .  He always taught me that I need to be able to take care of myself because life could throw you a curveball and you could suddenly have no one to depend on.  So I set forth in life with that in the back of my head.  Now that doesn't mean that I don't desire love and companionship.  Quite the opposite.  But I know if something ever happened to my husband that I could handle things and support my family.  I trust myself to make smart decisions on my own.

My own mother is also very submissive and it always bothered me.  Why did she not think her own opinion was as worthy as my father's?  I swore I wouldn't be like that.  I think it boiled down to my mothers own self esteem issues.  She is an amazing woman but she never saw herself that way...no matter how hard you try to convince her.

Your last paragraph concerned me though.  You are writing being opinionated and having an independent streak as a negative thing.  Why is that bad?  Your opinions are valid and deserve to be heard.  It's not a bad thing that your husband needs to contend with.  You've spoken in the past very positively about your husband.  I'd like to think he'd value your opinion and you two could make decisions together.

This was an interesting conversation.  Thank-you.

 

 

 

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3 hours ago, nibbler747 said:

<snip>

Your last paragraph concerned me though.  You are writing being opinionated and having an independent streak as a negative thing.  Why is that bad?  Your opinions are valid and deserve to be heard.  It's not a bad thing that your husband needs to contend with.  You've spoken in the past very positively about your husband.  I'd like to think he'd value your opinion and you two could make decisions together.

This was an interesting conversation.  Thank-you.

You are absolutely correct.   I get over-sensitive about expressing myself and being independent because it's always been something that has been ingrained in me as a form of rebellion.   I got beat up for it a lot growing up.    Perhaps that is the reason I always feel the need to apologize and make amends for it when I upset people. 

I think that is one of the reasons why I turn to this forum and my FF as an escape.   I feel like I can't really be who I am and want to be out in the open because I always feel like I'm being judged.  On here I feel free because my identity is hidden, and in my FF I can write a world that I prefer away from the reality of things I really don't want to face.

My husband does value my opinion, and we do make decisions together, but sometimes he feels like I am really messed up because of the baggage I carry from my up-bringing.    As mentioned before, he was raised in a household where his mother was the head and his dad was the submissive one always bowing to her will to keep her happy.   I always thought it was upside down.    My husband depends on me a lot for managing the household because he is so used to his mother doing it for him.   I'm allowed to be independent because my husband married me for that part of my personality, but that doesn't mean he doesn't try to reign me and remind me of his role as my husband.  

I see value in women, as I myself am a strong and successful woman.   I did it all on my own, but I have self-esteem issues big time.   I guess in some ways I envy woman who are not afraid to fight for their rights and against stereotypes because I've never found the strength to do so.  I've just accepted that this is my lot, and I make it work.

Even on a professional level, I find it difficult to stand up to my male superiors at work when I know they are wrong because I feel like I am insubordinate by doing so.    I can't tell you how many times I've shut my office door in tears over anger that I just let others walk all over me just because I want to be accepted, rather than fight because I am a woman.

Edited by jenafan

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Wow, ok I have no idea how to give my view on this without sounding somewhat confrontational, BUT you did say that you thought your views on feminism might be somewhat ‘skewed' so I’m gonna give my opinion and please know that I am not trying to be argumentative here and in no way do I mean any disrespect to your religious upbringing @jenafan ! <3 

 

The literal definition of ‘Feminism’ (from the Oxford dictionary) is:

The advocacy of women’s rights on the ground of the equality of the sexes.

The word/movement began because Women did not have the same rights as Men, hence the “Fem” part but it is about all genders being considered equal and I think the fact that the word itself uses a gender pronoun is where a lot of the confusion about feminism stems from.  The word itself is suffering from a serious PR issue as it comes across as a female issue only when it really isn’t.

When I was young and I heard the word Feminist it conjured up images of Germaine Greer’s bitter twisted little face saying controversial nonsense on television to publicise her books! It wasn’t until I was exposed to the other side of Feminism that I realised how wrong I had personally been about it.

I was involved in a discussion (when I was a teenager) about Male Nurses, both the Boys and the Girls in the discussion considered nursing to be something of an embarrassment as a profession for a man because it was a woman’s job, so I piped up and asked if they thought the reverse was true, that Women should not be Doctors? the answer was a resounding “no, of course not women can do any job they want!” and another member of the group said “…then why can’t Men choose to be Nurses...?” - confused faces all round. That’s when I thought I had better take another glance at this thing they call Feminism. 

There are many roles in life that were traditionally gender based, for example Women fed the babies so Women stayed at home to raise them while the Men went out to provide. The baby cried for food in the middle of the night, the parent with the milk had to get up and see to the child. This is no longer the case, Men can stay at home with the babies while the Mother’s work, times move along and we are living in a society (at least in the west) that allows for that. If that is what the family chooses to do. There is nothing un-feminist about choosing to be a stay at home mother, a company executive or even a stripper! Women have the right to chose which profession they go into as much as Men.

Women being weaker than Men is a complete falsehood. Some Men are stronger than some Women this is true.
As an in-show example, if Sheldon were to get into the UFC Octagon with Penny, Penny would kick his ass! but if Zach and Bernadette were to do battle it would be a very different story. Not all women are physically weaker than all men and vice versa. 

Women being emotionally weaker than Men is also not entirely true: http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC1119278/ 

This study found that female infants displayed "self regulation of emotional states” whilst the boys displayed "more distress and demands for contact"

Interesting snippet from this article:

Quote

When exposed to the distress of others, young boys are less sympathetic than girls. A group of 6 year old girls and boys were listening to the recorded sound of a crying baby. Many more girls than boys spoke kindly to what they assumed was a real infant, while more than twice as many boys simply turned the speaker off. Tracings of heart rate variability suggested that the boys were more anxious; they could not tolerate the infant's distress.

The infant Males were more emotional than the Females, by a certain age though the boys (above) are still emotionally reacting but they have learnt to mask any feelings which are not considered masculine. Are Women more prone to emotional response because of their biological make up? or is it also a socially learnt behaviour like the boys above?

From a very young age girls are taught that it is ok for them to show emotion whereas boys are told that they shouldn’t cry whilst being encouraged to show aggression, like in sport for example and the classic “boys will be boys!” when they get into fights. This is very damaging to both genders as it can lead to fully grown Women who believe they can’t do certain things because they are too weak emotionally/physically and fully grown Men who repress any emotion bar aggression. This ‘negative masculinity’ has been postulated as the reason Men commit suicide at a 3:1 ration to Women and it is a big part of why everyone needs feminism.

Gender equality is so, so important for all genders! little boys need to be allowed to cry, fully grown men need to go to the doctor when they are sick instead of trying to ‘man up’ through it, feminism isn’t just for the fems! 

When it comes to relationship between any two individuals, regardless of genders, it should be an equal partnership where both parties have an equal say in everything that happens.

In my house when an issue arrises there is a debate where both parties put forward their positions and if after a while neither of us has changed the other’s opinion or found a middle ground solution then one of us does indeed get the deciding vote, or as you put it have the ‘headship’ I won’t say which one that is :wink: but one of us is naturally more submissive personality wise. Luckily we have never reached a ‘red line’ issue that would make us decide to call it quits!  

Usually in a relationship one person is more assertive and the other more submissive  there is nothing un-feminist at all about the Woman choosing to be the submissive half of the equation but the attitude that it has to be the Man who’s in charge is where a lot of people take offence with many religious traditions and the symbolism that goes along with that i.e. the walking a Daughter down the aisle. 

A Man preferring his wife have long hair is fine, a Man telling his wife that she has to keep her hair long is not. 

The idea of Girls being told from the start that when they grow up a Man will rule them and Boys being told they will be in charge of Women when they become Men is very toxic territory, you are subconsciously telling both genders that Women/Girls are property. I don't need to say why that attitude is dangerous.

 

 

 

HERE COMES THE SEX PART OF THIS POST! look away if you’re upset about that sort of thing… NOW!

As for the physical relationship again, there are a lot of misconceptions out there!

Sex drive is not determined by gender, as I’m sure you know from your personal experience with you husband, some Women have higher Drives than men and vice versa.

Although rare, Men can have multiple orgasms, 30% of Men have admitted to ‘faking’ orgasms and they are not guaranteed an orgasm upon ejaculation either!  

(If anyone is really interested in learning about the Male multiple there how there are ‘how to’ guides written by users on Reddit, I won’t link to them here though cus they are quite crudely worded)

Gender equality is important for both genders (I feel like I've typed that a zillion times now lol) where sex is concerned because a lot of young Women genuinely think it is meant to hurt their first time!, that they most likely won't have an orgasm very often and that if a boy deems them worthy enough of his attention/buys them dinner that they are somehow obligated to 'put out' 

Young Men are stigmatised for things like performing oral sex on their women, there is actually quite a crude slang word for it in the UK and a whole thing where guys call each other gay for doing it! - How having any sort of sex with a woman makes a boy gay I don't know but there you have it! 

It took my other half and I a long time to 'unlearn' a lot of gender stereotypes that we were sticking to in our relationship but once we did we were both a lot happier in both our day to day lives and our night time life! 

I feel very sad for teenage me back then having that conversation about doctors and nurses, thinking that I had to act a certain way because of the gender I was born to and I'm so glad that I had that epiphany all those years ago that Boys and Girls can do whatever they want or I would have missed out on some of the coolest and most emotionally rewarding moments of my life :) 

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Oh my...that's why I'm a feminist.

It's so sad to read how you think you had lesser rights than men.

I don't know what to write or where to start...

Please don't put people in theses boxes.

Most important, don't live in a box, that your parents created for you.

You can be who you are not what someone could expect you to be.

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1 hour ago, Einstein Von Brainstorm said:

(snip)

The word/movement began because Women did not have the same rights as Men, hence the “Fem” part but it is about all genders being considered equal and I think the fact that the word itself uses a gender pronoun is where a lot of the confusion about feminism stems from.  The word itself is suffering from a serious PR issue as it comes across as a female issue only when it really isn’t.

When I was young and I heard the word Feminist it conjured up images of Germaine Greer’s bitter twisted little face saying controversial nonsense on television to publicise her books! It wasn’t until I was exposed to the other side of Feminism that I realised how wrong I had personally been about it.

I was involved in a discussion (when I was a teenager) about Male Nurses, both the Boys and the Girls in the discussion considered nursing to be something of an embarrassment as a profession for a man because it was a woman’s job, so I piped up and asked if they thought the reverse was true, that Women should not be Doctors? the answer was a resounding “no, of course not women can do any job they want!” and another member of the group said “…then why can’t Men choose to be Nurses...?” - confused faces all round. That’s when I thought I had better take another glance at this thing they call Feminism. 

(snip)

Women being emotionally weaker than Men is also not entirely true: http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC1119278/ 

This study found that female infants displayed "self regulation of emotional states” whilst the boys displayed "more distress and demands for contact"

Interesting snippet from this article:

The infant Males were more emotional than the Females, by a certain age though the boys (above) are still emotionally reacting but they have learnt to mask any feelings which are not considered masculine. Are Women more prone to emotional response because of their biological make up? or is it also a socially learnt behaviour like the boys above?

(snip)

Gender equality is so, so important for all genders! little boys need to be allowed to cry, fully grown men need to go to the doctor when they are sick instead of trying to ‘man up’ through it, feminism isn’t just for the fems! 

Usually in a relationship one person is more assertive and the other more submissive  there is nothing un-feminist at all about the Woman choosing to be the submissive half of the equation but the attitude that it has to be the Man who’s in charge is where a lot of people take offence with many religious traditions and the symbolism that goes along with that i.e. the walking a Daughter down the aisle. 

The idea of Girls being told from the start that when they grow up a Man will rule them and Boys being told they will be in charge of Women when they become Men is very toxic territory, you are subconsciously telling both genders that Women/Girls are property. I don't need to say why that attitude is dangerous.

(snip)

Gender equality is important for both genders (I feel like I've typed that a zillion times now lol) where sex is concerned because a lot of young Women genuinely think it is meant to hurt their first time!, that they most likely won't have an orgasm very often and that if a boy deems them worthy enough of his attention/buys them dinner that they are somehow obligated to 'put out' 

(snip)

I feel very sad for teenage me back then having that conversation about doctors and nurses, thinking that I had to act a certain way because of the gender I was born to and I'm so glad that I had that epiphany all those years ago that Boys and Girls can do whatever they want or I would have missed out on some of the coolest and most emotionally rewarding moments of my life :) 

OMG!  OMG!

Thank you so much for this.   I didn't find your comments offensive or argumentative at all.    I found it very educational and eye opening.   It's like this thread has become therapy for me, not necessarily because it will change who I am, but because I better understand why I do the things the way I do and why the feminist movement has taken off as it has.   I also have a better understanding of what feminism is, and that it is not meant to degrade or demoralize men.  As you said, the pronoun in the term is very misleading regarding its intent.

I never had an issue regarding men/women in careers.   I know many men who are great nurses, clean houses, etc. and successful women as engineers, sales people in a male-dominated industry, etc.   However, I will tell you being in HR and having an office job, that women are still being paid far less than men for what we do and are treated as the "paper pushers," because it is assumed that men wouldn't be good multi-taskers, would push back at their superiors, or just don't like that kind of thing.  We have a few men who are office managers in our industry, and it is always assumed that they are gay because of it, which I think is outright wrong!    I have always been the breadwinner in the family, having a steady job and making more money than my husband.   While he doesn't complain because he benefits, he does feel like less of a man because of it and has told me so.   There was one time for a period that he trumped me in salary, and he said it felt wonderful.  When I trumped him again, he was actually upset   I was like, what? I am bringing home more money again and you feel it demeans you as a man and head of our household? 

My exposure to men being emotional has been limited.   My father and my husband do not cry.   I got punish growing up for crying because it was considered weak.   Nonetheless, in spite of all that, I cry a lot because I get very emotional about everything.   None of the men around me get it.   When I see men cry, it just touches my heart because I know they are so comfortable with themselves for doing it.

Regarding the sex part of your post, I loved every bit of it.   I am an extremely sexual being, as one can probably tell by my openness in my forum comments and my FF.  I always felt wrong for being that way.   In this area, I was also abused as a young girl and a teenager, but unlike some who shy away from it, I embraced it.   So, in a sense, I have broken another stereotype that abuse does not always equate to hatred.     I relate to it because it was the only form of "love" I knew.   When I met my demi-sexual husband, I became attracted to him because unlike any other man in my life, he was attracted to me for me and not for the sex, and I had to wait a long time for it.   Talk about patience, but it was the best thing that could have ever happened to me to break me from my mindset that I could only be loved if I put out.

Now, here is the reason I have always had such a negative view of feminism and women being dominant over men:

I have seen women who hoard it over men by insulting, putting them down, and calling them good for nothing, insulting them in public and basically stealing their dignity.   I've seen women withhold sex from men as punishment or as a tool to gain the upper hand.   I've seen women who have managed to convince their husbands to alienate themselves from their entire families, including mother, in order to have complete control over him.  I've seen women who raise sons, who as adults cannot make decisions in their own households without consulting Mom, making their wives feel like second-class citizens.   I've seen women who try to raise their children's children because they don't believe their own children are capable.    This is what I thought feminism was all about.

So, I appreciate all of the information that has been shared on this thread because I'm starting to realize that feminism is not so much the issue I have, as it is individual behavior and believing I have to hide who I am to fit into a specific mold that I've been told I belong.   

I think I am more of a feminist than I give myself credit for, but I don't want to associate myself with the title because of the negative connotations that come from those who take it to extremes or don't really understand what it's all about.   Like you said, it's gender equality for both sexes, not just women.

I said in a previous post that I love men's masculinity, but it does bother me when they are afraid to dress in colors, do specific things, cross their legs a certain way, or show emotion because they think it will be questioned.  My husband is one of them.

I feel like a huge weight has been lifted off of my shoulders as a result of this discussion.    Thank you for participating.

Edited by jenafan
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I'm glad that this thread helped you to gain another point of view, really liked the comments from all of you guys.

Its beautiful to see that you can see some things more positive now, jenafan.

For me feminism has always bee something positive, about equality, freedom, respect and love.

No matter what's your sexuality, gender, where you're from or whatever.

Of course there are some women who use this term to put women over men.

But I don't like that, just as I don't like it the other way around.

Oh an I remember some study, that proves that the ability of multitasking isn't related to genders. Maybe I read it on iflscience, but not sure.

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@jenafan; I'm so glad that this discussion helped you and you feel a weight lifted off your shoulders.  It makes me sad that you've been through so much pain, but I am happy that you have a positive outlook on life.  You've done really well for yourself and should be proud.

I feel the others so much more eloquently put the true meaning of feminism as equality, and you mentioned you hated seeing men put down.  I hate that too, and a true feminist would not do it.  It's true that the word feminism has taken some negative associations over the years which has gotten away from the true meaning.  Gender equality for men and for women.

This thread has been very interesting.  Thanks for that.

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The problem with feminism is, us men can't be right, for being wrong.

If I hold a door for you, I'm patronizing you.

If i don't hold a door open for you, I'm ignorant.

A friend of mine held a door open for a woman, and, as she passed through, she gave him a dirty look, and said "I hope you didn't do that because I'm a lady."

Quick as a flash (sorry, shouldn't mention that word :blush: ), my mate shot back "No, I did it because I'm a gentleman.", then let the door go, hitting her on the backside.

Poetic justice anyone? :) 

ETA: It's interesting to note that, despite the alleged equality in society, I've never been chatted up/asked out by a woman, nor had one offer to buy me a drink.

It seems, it's still us men, who are supposed to do the chatting up/asking out, and buy the drinks.

Edited by Stephen Hawking
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12 minutes ago, Stephen Hawking said:

The problem with feminism is, us men can't be right, for being wrong.

If I hold a door for you, I'm patronizing you.

If i don't hold a door open for you, I'm ignorant.

A friend of mine held a door open for a woman, and, as she passed through, she gave him a dirty look, and said "I hope you didn't do that because I'm a lady."

Quick as a flash (sorry, shouldn't mention that word :blush: ), my mate shot back "No, I did it because I'm a gentleman.", then let the door go, hitting her on the backside.

Poetic justice anyone? :) 

ETA: It's interesting to note that, despite the alleged equality in society, I've never been chatted up/asked out by a woman, nor had one offer to buy me a drink.

It seems, it's still men who are supposed to do the chatting up/asking out, and buy the drinks.

And these are the very reasons why I have always had issues with the term feminism and never wanted to identify with it.    It seems some pick and choose the type of independence wanted.

Based on my conversations with Einstein and Nibbler over the past couple of days, I understand now that feminism really is about equality over both sexes, male and female, not one dominating or being offended by the other.    If a man wants to open a door for a woman, that's good.   If a woman doesn't want the courtesy, she has the right, as well.

Where is the balance, though?

As with any type of movement, religious group, etc. there are those who take it to the extreme or create their own version under an umbrella of the title they claim to support.    It is dangerous, because those on the outside associate something that is supposed to be a good thing as something negative because of the actions of a few rather than the majority. 

I did not understand feminism, and so I asked for clarification.   Now I am less apt to judge, because I see the issue really is in translation and attitude, not purpose or intent.

Where's the respect for each other's rights?    If one doesn't celebrate Christmas, should he/she become offended because someone else does and wants to issue a greeting because that's what they do and didn't know the stand of the person receiving it.   

I commend Starbucks for taking the holiday greetings off their paper cups so as not to create offense to anyone, and yet some still found a way to become offended by it.    Why is our rights to celebrate Christmas more important than the rights of those that don't?   

Like Sheldon said, we live in a litigious society and no sex, race, belief, hope is above scrutiny by another.   People long for world peace, but since we live in an age where everything is offensive, I really don't think it is possible without intervention by something other than humans.  

Oops, I probably just offended someone because I do believe in a higher power.   

Oh, well.   What can you do?   However, I now understand that as a woman, I do have a right to a voice and an opinion.    It doesn't mean I don't respect yours as a man.

Stephen, if you were to ever opened the door for me or buy a drink for me, I would graciously smile and say thank you.   I think it is nice that gentlemen still exist.   So, please don't stop just because some cannot accept a kindness as it is, not as a insult to their position or view.   The reaction is on them, not you.

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37 minutes ago, jenafan said:

Stephen, if you were to ever opened the door for me or buy a drink for me, I would graciously smile and say thank you.

The other question is, would you ever chat up a man you fancied (and offer to buy him a drink), and, if not, why not?

Why does it seem to be, always the man's job to do the approaching, chatting up, and buying?

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1 hour ago, jenafan said:

I commend Starbucks for taking the holiday greetings off their paper cups so as not to create offense to anyone, and yet some still found a way to become offended by it.    Why is our rights to celebrate Christmas more important than the rights of those that don't?   

Like Sheldon said, we live in a litigious society and no sex, race, belief, hope is above scrutiny by another.   People long for world peace, but since we live in an age where everything is offensive, I really don't think it is possible without intervention by something other than humans.  

Oops, I probably just offended someone because I do believe in a higher power.   

Oh, well.   What can you do?   However, I now understand that as a woman, I do have a right to a voice and an opinion.    It doesn't mean I don't respect yours as a man.

Oh my goodness @jenafan , I swear you know all my buttons!  :shy:

In reference to our previous discussions, you were mentioning how you were not comfortable expressing your opinion, and often deferred to that of others.   I was wondering if you realized that you just did it again with your own religious beliefs.  In reference to your question about celebrating Christmas that I bolded.  My question to you is, why can't you freely celebrate your own religion's holiday?  Why do you have to keep that quiet as not to offend anyone?  Personally, I think you should celebrate openly, and you have every right, and should not feel bad about it.  It is not hurting anyone.

I don't want to live in a cultureless society where everyone is so scared of offending each other.  If someone wants to celebrate Christmas, good for them.  If they want to celebrate Diwali, or Ramadan, I'm equally happy.   I want to be in a society that fosters acceptance and interest in other cultures and not fear.  Everyone should have the right to openly celebrate their own religious holidays, without worry about offending others.

So with that, I wish you a Very Merry Christmas!

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16 hours ago, Stephen Hawking said:

The other question is, would you ever chat up a man you fancied (and offer to buy him a drink), and, if not, why not?

Why does it seem to be, always the man's job to do the approaching, chatting up, and buying?

For me, it is because I was always taught it was a no no.

I'm really not the right person to ask this question to, as I was taught to be submissive to men, which means I would never approach a man by my own accord for this reason alone.   I won't even let a man (who is not family) into my home if my husband is not here because I don't want to give a false impression.

I was raised that a woman asking a men out makes her appear as desperate and aggressive, making the man feel less masculine.   The key was not to ask the man out, but instead find a means to get him to ask me out and make it his idea.  If I moved toward a man I'm interested in and make myself available and he does not ask, then I took it to mean he was not interested.

This poses a challenge to men who are shy or insecure, because they may very well be interested but can't get the words out.   This calls for a great deal of creativity by the female to show him that any advance he makes toward showing any interest in her will be well received.   This could be done by flirting, smiling, spending time with him, etc.

My husband was that way.   We were both in existing relationships that we wanted out of.   When they finally fizzled out, we turned to each other as friends that developed into something more.   We never really asked each other out, we just happened once we were sure neither would reject the other.

I think it is all about what we are taught is acceptable.   The same goes for a woman asking a man to marry her.   It is frowned upon.   I can definitely understand how under these auspices a women could very well see themselves as being viewed as property, with the male being the surveyor because the rules that have been passed down from prior generations having little practical application today, if they ever were.

 

15 hours ago, nibbler747 said:

Oh my goodness @jenafan , I swear you know all my buttons!  :shy:

In reference to our previous discussions, you were mentioning how you were not comfortable expressing your opinion, and often deferred to that of others.   I was wondering if you realized that you just did it again with your own religious beliefs.  In reference to your question about celebrating Christmas that I bolded.  My question to you is, why can't you freely celebrate your own religion's holiday?  Why do you have to keep that quiet as not to offend anyone?  Personally, I think you should celebrate openly, and you have every right, and should not feel bad about it.  It is not hurting anyone.

I don't want to live in a cultureless society where everyone is so scared of offending each other.  If someone wants to celebrate Christmas, good for them.  If they want to celebrate Diwali, or Ramadan, I'm equally happy.   I want to be in a society that fosters acceptance and interest in other cultures and not fear.  Everyone should have the right to openly celebrate their own religious holidays, without worry about offending others.

So with that, I wish you a Very Merry Christmas!

At least you know I'm consistent.   I default to looking out for others interests over my own.   It's just my nature.   So, does that make me anti-feminist, selfless, or just too afraid to stand up for myself?

It gets to the point where sometimes I really don't know who I am because I'm trying to be what I think everyone expects to keep from stepping on toes or creating conflict.

Edited by jenafan

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