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913 The Empathy Optimization (January 14th)


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7 hours ago, Chrismo said:

I think you were spot on with the rest of your post but disagree on this part.Her apparently now going out on girls night, which seem out of left field, has made her part of the family. The feud with Penny over. Emily's attitude towards Sheldon's apologizes was like the others at various times during the show. (Howard and the FBI agent for example). I think the key was at the end. The group left it up to Emily to let Sheldon on the bus or not. When she did it Penny basically said to her now you see what we go through with Sheldon. Basically saying you're like one of us now.

I have no idea how long or how often Emily does girls night, but I agree that that was completely out of left field. Emily and Penny buried the hatchet sometime off-screen?

It seems weird because at Thanksgiving Emily asked Bernie if they were close enough for Emily to crack a remark on Howard. Bernie said yes. As Emily has been dating Raj a long time now, and Raj and Howard are best friends, I could buy that Bernie and Emily hang out a lot on double dates and that scene was confirming they have become friends. Since Amy and Emily had a lot in common also, perhaps those two have bridged the distance between Emily and Penny, and Emily has been more involved since Thanksgiving? But see, I'm applying logic to very little info - I have no idea if this is right. So it's hard to buy this "Emily is part of the gang now" thing.

Anyway, while Emily might have cracked the "this is Sheldon and welcome to why we put up with him" boundary finally, (certainly key to becoming family, for sure), I was thinking more of the ending. We know that Penny and Bernie are rock solid in their marriages and they only see Raj as a friend. The laughing and hamming around on the pole was harmless fun, and they were all cracking up. But Emily seemed very unhappy about it, and was not joining in with the other girls. 

I know it's not conclusive, so I'll just quote Princess Leia: I have a bad feeling about this. 

I have a few criticisms with the show and have for awhile, and one of them is allowing Raj and Emily's relationship to play out off-screen too much. We've had a few lame b-plots (Raj & Howard stalking their fan, for instance) that could have been spent more on Raj and Emily. At least so the audience could get to know her, to know what was up with them, and care a little more about her character. I love the actress, the character is interesting, Raj's first real long-term relationship is interesting, and they have good chemistry. I know it's hard to fit in an 8th (or 9th, if you included Stuart) character into a show that have been whittled down to 19 minutes a week, but if Emily goes by the end of the season (and I predict she's going to go) it would give it more impact and emotional resonance if we knew her well enough to genuinely care. She still feels disposable to me, which is why I think she'll be disposed of by the end of this season or early in the next one. 

2 hours ago, kelliluvtbbt said:

unfortunately, I don't know why this is happening. Again, it's the writer's call. 

I think the writers are a little lost with Leonard and Penny. It's hard to get over "the beauty and the nerd" thing they were originally going for, but the thing is they have so much more with this couple now. Penny and Leonard are more than a trope, could be more than a trope if the writers could shed the mentality of the trope they are trying to write and just write to the characters. The AV Club reviewer said something along the lines off "there's SO MUCH there to mine with Leonard and Penny, but the writers can't seem to find the vein of gold in the rocks." I completely agree with this. I was just a creative writing major and never did much with that, so I am no professional, but I feel like even I could handle Penny and Leonard better than the writers can right now. They've done so much to lay the Lenny groundwork, but then they fuck up what should be an easy score. They seem more determined to throw a monkey wrench in the works than go for the win right in front of them, and that just blows my mind. 

It's frustrating.

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Lionne, I agree with most of your post. Espicially the B plots. I think though the harmless pole dance didn't mean much to Penny but in someways it was a bit insensitive. Penny knows that Emily has issues with the "hookup" . You may disagree if she should have an issue but Penny never refuted to Emily when they had that discussion over it last season. You would think Penny would have behaved better during the tag.

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1 hour ago, Lionne said:

I have no idea how long or how often Emily does girls night, but I agree that that was completely out of left field. Emily and Penny buried the hatchet sometime off-screen?

It seems weird because at Thanksgiving Emily asked Bernie if they were close enough for Emily to crack a remark on Howard. Bernie said yes. As Emily has been dating Raj a long time now, and Raj and Howard are best friends, I could buy that Bernie and Emily hang out a lot on double dates and that scene was confirming they have become friends. Since Amy and Emily had a lot in common also, perhaps those two have bridged the distance between Emily and Penny, and Emily has been more involved since Thanksgiving? But see, I'm applying logic to very little info - I have no idea if this is right. So it's hard to buy this "Emily is part of the gang now" thing.

Anyway, while Emily might have cracked the "this is Sheldon and welcome to why we put up with him" boundary finally, (certainly key to becoming family, for sure), I was thinking more of the ending. We know that Penny and Bernie are rock solid in their marriages and they only see Raj as a friend. The laughing and hamming around on the pole was harmless fun, and they were all cracking up. But Emily seemed very unhappy about it, and was not joining in with the other girls. 

I know it's not conclusive, so I'll just quote Princess Leia: I have a bad feeling about this. 

I have a few criticisms with the show and have for awhile, and one of them is allowing Raj and Emily's relationship to play out off-screen too much. We've had a few lame b-plots (Raj & Howard stalking their fan, for instance) that could have been spent more on Raj and Emily. At least so the audience could get to know her, to know what was up with them, and care a little more about her character. I love the actress, the character is interesting, Raj's first real long-term relationship is interesting, and they have good chemistry. I know it's hard to fit in an 8th (or 9th, if you included Stuart) character into a show that have been whittled down to 19 minutes a week, but if Emily goes by the end of the season (and I predict she's going to go) it would give it more impact and emotional resonance if we knew her well enough to genuinely care. She still feels disposable to me, which is why I think she'll be disposed of by the end of this season or early in the next one. 

I think the writers are a little lost with Leonard and Penny. It's hard to get over "the beauty and the nerd" thing they were originally going for, but the thing is they have so much more with this couple now. Penny and Leonard are more than a trope, could be more than a trope if the writers could shed the mentality of the trope they are trying to write and just write to the characters. The AV Club reviewer said something along the lines off "there's SO MUCH there to mine with Leonard and Penny, but the writers can't seem to find the vein of gold in the rocks." I completely agree with this. I was just a creative writing major and never did much with that, so I am no professional, but I feel like even I could handle Penny and Leonard better than the writers can right now. They've done so much to lay the Lenny groundwork, but then they fuck up what should be an easy score. They seem more determined to throw a monkey wrench in the works than go for the win right in front of them, and that just blows my mind. 

It's frustrating.

Funny, I don't know anything really about creative writing but simply assume these writers must know what they are doing.

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27 minutes ago, Chrismo said:

Penny knows that Emily has issues with the "hookup" .

And as far as we, the fans, knew Emily had problems with the hookup.  Having way too much off screen or abandoned is what I think is what is happening.

1 hour ago, Lionne said:

snip...

 

I think the writers are a little lost with Leonard and Penny. It's hard to get over "the beauty and the nerd" thing they were originally going for, but the thing is they have so much more with this couple now. Penny and Leonard are more than a trope, could be more than a trope if the writers could shed the mentality of the trope they are trying to write and just write to the characters. The AV Club reviewer said something along the lines off "there's SO MUCH there to mine with Leonard and Penny, but the writers can't seem to find the vein of gold in the rocks." I completely agree with this. I was just a creative writing major and never did much with that, so I am no professional, but I feel like even I could handle Penny and Leonard better than the writers can right now. They've done so much to lay the Lenny groundwork, but then they fuck up what should be an easy score. They seem more determined to throw a monkey wrench in the works than go for the win right in front of them, and that just blows my mind. 

It's frustrating.

Agree totally, especially the bolded parts. 

It seems to me, and I try not to disrespect the writers because while I can write a decent story I'm not in their league, but they are having a problem trying to let Lenny become the adults without losing the preciousness of their relationship.  In my opinion, it's because they are not focusing enough attention on them but YMMV.  And if Lenny is not being focused much on, can you imagine how people who love Howardette or Rajemily(whatever) feel.

Not sure if I'm getting the point I want to get across so forgive me if I'm not making sense..

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Chrismo - Actually, I agree Penny could have been more respectful. 

Kasey - Howardette and Rajily are not the two main ships, though, Lenny and Shamy are. We don't even have a Howardette thread. Sure people like them, they just don't SHIP them with all the passion that comes with shipping. I think I've seen more interest in the chemistry with Rajily, as little as there is of the couple on screen., then Howardette. 

So getting Lenny as right as they managed to course correct with Shamy is important. I don't think that the writers are horrible in anyway; they make me laugh a lot, which is their primary point, and they did very well with the Shamy advances this season. I don't mind one couple going more background than the other. Actually, most Shamies wouod like our ship on the back burner now. Just let them be blissfully happy in the background, concentrate on other characters we love, we've been served well, thanks, now make the rest of the stuff good too. Lenny was front and center in season 7, but even then I was asking: what are you guys going to do with Leonard? He's so ready to grow up and move on. 

The thing is, I don't think they have ignored Lenny. They just had that whole therapist episode. It's just that Penny's turn on the couch made no sense. It left everyone going, "WTF is she talking about?" If your characters aren't making a lick of sense then you've lost your narrative with them. Which drives me nuts when there's so much RIGHT THERE for the two of them to deal with.

I agree, Kasey, it's about them growing up. Sheldon pointed out they got engaged but never planned a wedding. They got married, but it changed nothing. These two don't talk together about any future plans. What they want their life to look like. How to make that happen. When to make that happen. Penny, who flies by the seat of her pants and her whims, doesn't like THINKING about things, much less doing the work to plan anything. So Leonard doesn't even ask anymore. Sheldon is more likely to push Penny into action than Leonard, and that's been a problem because it makes it seem Sheldon sparks Penny out of complacency more, but Leonard placates and soothes her more and Penny smooths things out between the two boys....annnnnd round and round. This has been a charming 3-way relationship with a weird equilibrium that works somehow, but it's still weird and starting to fail the character's long term best interests and desires. Penny's progress as a Sales Rep has been great, but now her maturity needs follow through, not regression. Sheldon's progress with Amy has been great, and that finally got follow through. (But late. Putting Sheldon and Amy having sex off so long puts off the idea they would be ready to live together, and delays changing living arrangements, and delays the end of the Leonard/Penny/Sheldon triangle, and if season 8 had one great sin it was delaying allllllll this. Yes, they seem to finally be dealing with it all this season, but there's been a price to pay with the fandom, yes?) Leonard's been ready since season 7. If you include her, Amy's ready to move forward too. They wasted a whole season they should have been getting this done. 

Penny and Leonard have to talk about building a married life and then actually have to take action to build that life. There should be humor and adventure in that, but the show can't or doesn't want to show that these two characters are mature enough to discuss moving in together. And they're MARRIED. 

 

 

Edited by Lionne
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25 minutes ago, Lionne said:

 

Kasey - Howardette and Rajily are not the two main ships, though, Lenny and Shamy are. We don't even have a Howardette thread. Sure people like them, they just don't SHIP them with all the passion that comes with shipping.

 

 

 

 

Sure we do.  MJ set it up a bit ago.  I haven't posted but it's there.  And I would disagree that people don't ship Howardette passionately.  People HERE don't.  But to say that IMNSHO is kind of degrading those that do regardless of their hierarchy in the show. 

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32 minutes ago, Kasey said:

Sure we do.  MJ set it up a bit ago.  I haven't posted but it's there.  And I would disagree that people don't ship Howardette passionately.  People HERE don't.  But to say that IMNSHO is kind of degrading those that do regardless of their hierarchy in the show. 

I don't mean to be degrading. It's just I've never seen it ever really catch on as a ship. Not that it isn't a ship, but anything can be a ship, I could decide to ship Bugs Bunny with Daphne from Scooby Doo, and that's a ship. But it might not have much traction. 

I don't mean to criticize or degrade Howardette by saying they don't really have a very exciting or passionate ship base. It's just my observation that people don't analyze or swoon over their relationship that much. They get more of an "aw, they are so cute" response instead of "ZOMG I JUST DIED" sort of thing. Am I wrong? Happy to admit it if I am. 

And note that I really love those characters and actors, and like their relationship. I think they're cute. It's just they don't spark any passion in me and it's never really seemed like they ignite anyone else either. 

 

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8 minutes ago, Lionne said:

I don't mean to be degrading. It's just I've never seen it ever really catch on as a ship. Not that it isn't a ship, but anything can be a ship, I could decide to ship Bugs Bunny with Daphne from Scooby Doo, and that's a ship. But it might not have much traction. 

I don't mean to criticize or degrade Howardette by saying they don't really have a very exciting or passionate ship base. It's just my observation that people don't analyze or swoon over their relationship that much. They get more of an "aw, they are so cute" response instead of "ZOMG I JUST DIED" sort of thing. Am I wrong? Happy to admit it if I am. 

And note that I really love those characters and actors, and like their relationship. I think they're cute. It's just they don't spark any passion in me and it's never really seemed like they ignite anyone else either. 

 

Well I don't really think that Bugs would go for Daphne but that conversation is a whole nuther Oprah to coin a phrase from CSI.   Having been in other forums that have multiple ships, I have found that like people tend to stick together.  So maybe if someone is not seeing passionate fans of a certain ship, it's because they aren't seeking out those who would be.

And again, if you look at the thread for Howardette and Rajily, you will find there's some spark there. 

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Just watched this episode after I got home from a trip...can't form any major thoughts at the moment as I am doped up on cough medicine...travel germs...bleah!  (I did enjoy the episode overall)

But I did notice one thing...in the cold open...they were actually sitting down to a home cooked meal!  Real plates, silverware...

Dinner1.jpg.3d2d873eac89f9e6d4acc7700f7d

Not takeout...What!?  A new trend for the gang?    I guess they were back to takeout pizza by the next meal...but we will have to keep an eye on future dinner developments.

p.s.  Wow, that's a lot of ellipses...I blame the cough medicine! :p

Edited by bhreg
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23 hours ago, Kasey said:

And as far as we, the fans, knew Emily had problems with the hookup.  Having way too much off screen or abandoned is what I think is what is happening.

Agree totally, especially the bolded parts. 

It seems to me, and I try not to disrespect the writers because while I can write a decent story I'm not in their league, but they are having a problem trying to let Lenny become the adults without losing the preciousness of their relationship.  In my opinion, it's because they are not focusing enough attention on them but YMMV.  And if Lenny is not being focused much on, can you imagine how people who love Howardette or Rajemily(whatever) feel.

Not sure if I'm getting the point I want to get across so forgive me if I'm not making sense..

Seems to me they are kind of writing the odd couple more than something with happy bliss.

568odd.jpg

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On 1/15/2016 at 7:32 AM, CarlLMartin said:

It crossed my mind that Amy's appearance by Skype in the last two episodes was an accommodation for her back injury in December.  From her Groknation blog about the Nutcracker:

"In the epic fail of my life (at least that’s how it felt to me at the time), the day before “The Nutcracker” – on the day that would have been my father’s 73rd birthday, God rest his soul – I threw my back out. Like, I was hinged at the waist and immobile. Then I could not stand or walk for days. (I still managed to livetweet the airing of my Christmasy movie, “The Flight Before Christmas,” but I was in pain much of the time.)"

Yeah. I read this entry on her blog in Groknation. If you read my post before this episode aired, I briefly mentioned her back injury. ^.^ I'm looking forward to seeing more of her in the next episode, though.

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  • 2 months later...

When did Leonard ever blow out birthday candles huh.gif 

Have to agree with Jonny83.

I think there were only two, really funny moments.

One was at the beginning, where the girls are discussing superheroes, and Raj thinks it's "beautiful".

The other was at the end, where Raj in pole dancing (and practically giving Penny a lap dance), and Penny and Bernadette are putting Dollar Bills in his waistband.

Edited by Stephen Hawking
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On 15/01/2016 at 2:50 AM, djsurrey said:

The other questions for this episode would be

  1. Why did Sheldon want to go anyway? He could have some time to himself and he had no interest in Vegas.
  2. How is Sheldon going to tolerate being on a party bus with the hoopla going on? I'd think he would much rather be home alone. What has Amy done to Sheldon?

 

Quite. I always thought that one of Sheldon's better characteristics was his utter contempt for everything involved in this trip. Surely the party bus with the blaring junk music and Raj on the pole would be a vision of hell for Sheldon. So Sheldon has become so needy that he'll put up with all that rather than spend a weekend away from his friends. I would have thought we'd seen as much neediness from Amy as anyone should see in a lifetime. Now Needy Sheldon - what have we done to deserve this?

Very pleased at Emily's prominence. An admirable character. I hope her role grows into being the grown-up female friend Penny needs, which would enable more of Penny's character development (and be a more interesting relationship than Emily's not-very-convincing romance with Raj). I just had a crazy thought: what if Emily remains part of the group after she dumps Douchebag Raj? How about that - a woman being part of the group without being one of the guys' partner?

Incidentally, SFAIK, neither Emily nor Leonard knows the truth about Penny's night with Raj in 424. I'd like to see a scene where Penny tells both of them the details in Raj's presence.

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1 hour ago, Stephen Hawking said:

I thought everyone now knew the truth, about that night.

We have never seen anyone told either that Penny was too drunk to know what she was doing or that Raj ejaculated prematurely and intimacy did not actually take place. Everyone apparently believes that Penny voluntarily had full sex with Raj. Do you know of Leonard or Emily being told different? If there was a scene where Penny told Leonard and E4 cut it out to show more ads than the US company that's their worst cut yet.

Edited by JohnPhD
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7 hours ago, JohnPhD said:

We have never seen anyone told either that Penny was too drunk to know what she was doing or that Raj ejaculated prematurely and intimacy did not actually take place. Everyone apparently believes that Penny voluntarily had full sex with Raj. Do you know of Leonard or Emily being told different? If there was a scene where Penny told Leonard and E4 cut it out to show more ads than the US company that's their worst cut yet.

Actually, the gang (including Leonard), knows the truth.  From the Hook up Reverbration, season 8, episode 4....

Penny: You told Emily we hooked up?

Raj: Um, well, in my defence, I tell everybody.

Penny: Why would you say that?

Raj: We were having a conversation about past lovers.

Penny: We weren’t lovers. Come on. Everyone knows we didn’t sleep together. We got drunk and fooled around. Why couldn’t you just leave me out of it?

Edited by Kathy2611
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11 hours ago, Kathy2611 said:

Actually, the gang (including Leonard), knows the truth.  From the Hook up Reverbration, season 8, episode 4....

Penny: You told Emily we hooked up?

Raj: Um, well, in my defence, I tell everybody.

Penny: Why would you say that?

Raj: We were having a conversation about past lovers.

Penny: We weren’t lovers. Come on. Everyone knows we didn’t sleep together. We got drunk and fooled around. Why couldn’t you just leave me out of it?

Quite right - I missed the everybody knows before.. And Leonard didn't look as tho he was hearing anything he didn't know. So when did Penny tell him? And in that episode it appears that Emily still doesn't know everything. And Raj is still claiming to have "bedded them both".

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1 hour ago, JohnPhD said:

Quite right - I missed the everybody knows before.. And Leonard didn't look as tho he was hearing anything he didn't know. So when did Penny tell him? And in that episode it appears that Emily still doesn't know everything. And Raj is still claiming to have "bedded them both".

Yeah, I agree...Emily doesn't know everything and as for when Penny told Leonard?  Not a clue but it was obviously done off screen.

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24 minutes ago, lennyx3 said:

It's been quite obvious, they saw Penny leaving their apartment after spending the night with Raj in Leonards Room.

So she didn't have to tell.

What she has to tell is that she was too drunk to know what she was doing and that they didn't actually have full sex due to Raj's premature ejaculation.

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