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[Spoilers] Non-season 9 Show Discussions


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8 minutes ago, SRAM said:

You are blowing this way out of proportion, Leonard milked-it when Penny OFFERED sympathy for what she did to upset him, no where did Leonard trick her into sex.  He even said to Howard that Penny was trying to appease Leonard for what she done by doing things for him.  Leonard only took advantage of what she offered, he never tricked her to do anything.  It is no different when Sheldon has someone agree to drive him somewhere then piles on additional stops to take advantage of the offer.

Sorry but that's not what Leonard told Howard.....

Leonard: Who just had sex with me at work.

Howard: Damn. How’d you swing that?

Leonard: Well, whenever I talk about how awful my mom was, Penny will do anything to make me feel better.

Howard: Seriously?

Leonard: Look, I mean, I’m not proud of it, but it does work. I got her to watch a six-part documentary on Monty Python. Even I was bored, I just wanted to see if she’d make it to the end.

Howard: You sound kind of proud of it.

Leonard: I am, I’m really proud.

Leonard did not mention Penny reading his Mother's book as justification, he certainly DID trick her, not only into sex but into watching a Monty Python documentary she didn't want to see.

Why are you trying to excuse the inexcusable? Just accept it was a dick move by Leonard! Why's that so hard to do?

 

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Lenny 2.0. Penny held back sex for 3 months, to me that was teaching Leonard a lesson for what he said about doing stuff with Penny to get his leg over. They have gone past that and just because Leonard probably has a higher sex drive than penny and wants it all the time doesn't make it manipulative. Penny enjoyed it but was just upset that he lied to her which he didn't have to cause his her boyfriend. Penny would have accepted his apologise and bang his brains out after leonard shut the laptop on Beverley and gave her those puppy eyes.

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Penny held back sex for three months? Was that the beta test thing? Is that what you mean? I didn't see that as being a punishment. I saw it as them finding their feet and taking things slow.  

You're right, Leonard didn't need to lie to get sex from Penny. So the question is, why did he?

Because he was in love with her and scared of losing her. So just did things for her to prove it. We all do things for our partners that we dont want to do but we do it , doesn't mean we are being manipulative or love them less, even now we see him doing the same, because he doesn't want to lose her.

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14 minutes ago, Tonstar17 said:

Leonard saying he did things with Penny to get sex and apparently Leonard manipulating penny for sex cause he was sad about penny reading Beverleys book. Just my take on ATOB'S COMMENTS.

You're comparing Penny using sex to manipulate and Penny being manipulated into sex as the same thing when in fact they are the opposite.

Manipulating someone because you know they want to have sex with you has you in control of your body.

Being manipulated into giving sex as succour removes this control.  The person manipulating takes the control.

 

 

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15 minutes ago, ATOB said:

SRAM do you really believe that taking advantage of someone giving you a lift in their car is the same as taking advantage of someone's body?!

You know he dosent your just trying to change the argument by putting him on the defensive, a nice tactic if it works but totally off topic

Edited by JE7
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37 minutes ago, ATOB said:

Penny held back sex for three months? Was that the beta test thing? Is that what you mean? I didn't see that as being a punishment. I saw it as them finding their feet and taking things slow.  

You're right, Leonard didn't need to lie to get sex from Penny. So the question is, why did he?

When did Leonard lie?  He made it perfectly clear from the beginning that her reading that book upset him and then he begged her not to ask him anything about it, so again when did he lie?

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Leonard saying he did things with Penny to get sex and apparently Leonard manipulating penny for sex cause he was sad about penny reading Beverleys book. Just my take on ATOB'S COMMENTS.

You're comparing Penny using sex to manipulate and Penny being manipulated into sex as the same thing when in fact they are the opposite.

Manipulating someone because you know they want to have sex with you has you in control of your body.

Being manipulated into giving sex as succour removes this control.  The person manipulating takes the control.

 

 

It's called kinky sex. 😊 seriously we all do it. Sad face, feeling down, arguments. We want our partner to be happy and if sex is the cure, we do it or buy them a gift, or whatever to cheer them up, just like some woman withhold sex when they are mad at their man. it could be anything. Sometimes the bond is so powerful that you just cant keep your hands away and it is hard to resist. It might come across as manipulating but not the intention. Its called love.

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1 hour ago, ATOB said:

Oh, and you have my absolute agreement that she was a rat-bag for doing so, however, you're not really trying to use this as some sort of justification for Penny being tricked into sex are you? Please tell me you're not! Please tell me you don't think that Leonard doing this was some sort of just deserts, because I truly don't see how manipulating someone into having sex with you is justifiable in any circumstance.

No I'm not, with one caveat. The context of this is that he manipulated her to have sex with him, but it is not as if they weren't having sex anyway, so in reality he manipulated her into having more sex than she would have had with him. I also I think it was more manipulating her into doing what he wanted her to do. IMO he wanted to feel "the power" to make her do whatever he wanted. I know, total douche move , and he got punished for it, and justifiably so.

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23 minutes ago, ATOB said:

SRAM do you really believe that taking advantage of someone giving you a lift in their car is the same as taking advantage of someone's body?!

Really, and how did he do that?  I never saw Leonard ask her for anything, she offered it to him everytime.  According to your very black and white interpretation of things, Penny was taking advantage of Leonard's body when she dragged him for sex to get him away from Alex because she knew him and because of that knew he would go with her.  

 

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23 minutes ago, JE7 said:

You know he dosent your just trying to change the argument by putting him on the defensive, a nice tactic if it works but totally off topic

Erm, no. SRAM wrote this.  You need to read the tread properly JE7.  I was answering this.....note the last line.

 

58 minutes ago, SRAM said:

You are blowing this way out of proportion, Leonard milked-it when Penny OFFERED sympathy for what she did to upset him, no where did Leonard trick her into sex.  He even said to Howard that Penny was trying to appease Leonard for what she done by doing things for him.  Leonard only took advantage of what she offered, he never tricked her to do anything.  It is no different when Sheldon has someone agree to drive him somewhere then piles on additional stops to take advantage of the offer.

 

10 minutes ago, SRAM said:

Really, and how did he do that?  I never saw Leonard ask her for anything, she offered it to him everytime.  According to your very black and white interpretation of things, Penny was taking advantage of Leonard's body when she dragged him for sex to get him away from Alex because she knew him and because of that knew he would go with her.  

 

I do not believe there was any trickery in this situation.  Penny offered sex, Leonard (we assume) said yes. Quite upfront.

Do you really not see the difference?

15 minutes ago, Carlos said:

No I'm not, with one caveat. The context of this is that he manipulated her to have sex with him, but it is not as if they weren't having sex anyway, so in reality he manipulated her into having more sex than she would have had with him. I also I think it was more manipulating her into doing what he wanted her to do. IMO he wanted to feel "the power" to make her do whatever he wanted. I know, total douche move , and he got punished for it, and justifiably so.

At last, a sane voice in a sea of insanity!

25 minutes ago, SRAM said:

When did Leonard lie?  He made it perfectly clear from the beginning that her reading that book upset him and then he begged her not to ask him anything about it, so again when did he lie?

Leonard: Who just had sex with me at work.

Howard: Damn. How’d you swing that?

Leonard: Well, whenever I talk about how awful my mom was, Penny will do anything to make me feel better.

Howard: Seriously?

Leonard: Look, I mean, I’m not proud of it, but it does work. I got her to watch a six-part documentary on Monty Python. Even I was bored, I just wanted to see if she’d make it to the end.

Howard: You sound kind of proud of it.

Leonard: I am, I’m really proud.

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26 minutes ago, ATOB said:

 

Leonard: Who just had sex with me at work.

Howard: Damn. How’d you swing that?

Leonard: Well, whenever I talk about how awful my mom was, Penny will do anything to make me feel better.

Howard: Seriously?

Leonard: Look, I mean, I’m not proud of it, but it does work. I got her to watch a six-part documentary on Monty Python. Even I was bored, I just wanted to see if she’d make it to the end.

Howard: You sound kind of proud of it.

Leonard: I am, I’m really proud.

He didn't lie to Penny. The scenerio above involved Howard. What he was telling Howard that he did was to take advantage of a situation. Considering Penny's admitted having sex to get a free meal Leonard's not the only one to do that. Again he shouldn't of done it but this whole discussion is moot if Penny didn't pick Beverly's book.

 

 

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23 minutes ago, ATOB said:

Erm, no. SRAM wrote this.  You need to read the tread properly JE7.  I was answering this.....note the last line.

 

 

I do not believe there was any trickery in this situation.  Penny offered sex, Leonard (we assume) said yes. Quite upfront.

Do you really not see the difference?

At last, a sane voice in a sea of insanity!

Leonard: Who just had sex with me at work.

Howard: Damn. How’d you swing that?

Leonard: Well, whenever I talk about how awful my mom was, Penny will do anything to make me feel better.

Howard: Seriously?

Leonard: Look, I mean, I’m not proud of it, but it does work. I got her to watch a six-part documentary on Monty Python. Even I was bored, I just wanted to see if she’d make it to the end.

Howard: You sound kind of proud of it.

Leonard: I am, I’m really proud.

Again where is the lie, you still haven't answered that.  Leonard WAS upset about the book and the book was about how awful a mother she was, Dr Gallo even agreed with Leonard about her books.  He even tells Howard that Penny is trying to comfort him with sex and other things because of the feelings she brought up by reading, then asking him about the book, so he is milking-in.  She is offering him things and although he is not proud of himself, he is taking her up on her offers and even encouraging her.  But he is not telling her a lie, what is your obsession to label him, it is just like when you couldn't wait to call him a cheater.  (Just admit it, you hate a fictional character, it is the first step to being cured).  Also, it could be said that Leonard in a way is punishing her for what she insisted on doing with the book, just like she then punishes him later with Beverly, by teasing him to get him to strip to embarrass him to his mother, which was extremely cruel and many people agree with that.  In the end they are perfectly even in my book, but I don't expect you to agree with your dislike of Leonard and you need to put him down.

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5 hours ago, ATOB said:

SRAM do you really believe that taking advantage of someone giving you a lift in their car is the same as taking advantage of someone's body?!

Whoa! Whoa! Whoa! Hold on  a minute. It WAS a dick move by Leonard but "taking advantage " of someone's body makes it sound as if she would have never had had sex with him to begin with. They are not two strangers who just met, are they? And...how is Leonard taking advantage of Penny's body when they had previously had had sex many, many, many, many times?  I believe that in the beginning her really was hurt, btw even if he did take advantage of the circumstances in the end. He WAS a dick and got punished for it. I however do not agree with your characterization.

Edited by Carlos
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On 20/04/2016 at 3:51 AM, Carlos said:

Whoa! Whoa! Whoa! 

 

whoah whoah whoah.gif

On 20/04/2016 at 3:51 AM, Carlos said:

Hold on  a minute. It WAS a dick move by Leonard but "taking advantage " of someone's body makes it sound as if she would have never had had sex with him to begin with. They are not two strangers who just met, are they? And...how is Leonard taking advantage of Penny's body when they had previously had had sex many, many, many, many times?  I believe that in the beginning her really was hurt, btw even if he did take advantage of the circumstances in the end. He WAS a dick and got punished for it. I however do not agree with your characterization.

You don't like the term 'taking advantage' then?  However you're happy that Leonard was 'milking it', cause you've all mostly agreed he was. Milking it? Milking it?  Hmm what does that mean exactly, milking it?  Let's see....

taking more time or advantage than you're really due because you can get away with it. Short for "milking it for all it's worth."
Potaaayto / Potaaarto
 

http://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=milking+it

Perhaps you need to whoah, whoah, whoah yourself Carlos....hey you know what, I read some wise words on here recently that may help, let me see....

 

In Sheldon's voice: "Peace out (he says "homie", but I'll say) camelliayao"

...and I'll swap 'camelliayao' for 'Carlos'.  Perhaps you need to heed your own advice?

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On 19/04/2016 at 0:09 AM, SRAM said:

Again where is the lie, you still haven't answered that.  Leonard WAS upset about the book and the book was about how awful a mother she was, Dr Gallo even agreed with Leonard about her books.  He even tells Howard that Penny is trying to comfort him with sex and other things because of the feelings she brought up by reading, then asking him about the book, so he is milking-in.  She is offering him things and although he is not proud of himself, he is taking her up on her offers and even encouraging her.  But he is not telling her a lie, what is your obsession to label him, it is just like when you couldn't wait to call him a cheater.  (Just admit it, you hate a fictional character, it is the first step to being cured).  Also, it could be said that Leonard in a way is punishing her for what she insisted on doing with the book, just like she then punishes him later with Beverly, by teasing him to get him to strip to embarrass him to his mother, which was extremely cruel and many people agree with that.  In the end they are perfectly even in my book, but I don't expect you to agree with your dislike of Leonard and you need to put him down.

"He even tells Howard that Penny is trying to comfort him with sex and other things because of the feelings she brought up by reading, then asking him about the book"

No he doesn't. This is purely your own head-canon, nothing more. Read the script sample again. This is you trying to justify Leonard's behavior. Leonard says no such thing to Howard.

"..although he is not proud of himself.."

Except he is. He is! He even bragged about it. Read the script sample again.

"Also, it could be said that Leonard in a way is punishing her for what she insisted on doing with the book"

I sincerely hope you're wrong because what sort of person tricks another into sex as punishment? Do good guys do that sort of thing?

"Again where is the lie?"

The whole scenario is based on deception. Leonard's deception and Penny's subsequent retribution. What did you think it's about if not that?

 

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On 19/04/2016 at 11:18 PM, Tonstar17 said:

You're comparing Penny using sex to manipulate and Penny being manipulated into sex as the same thing when in fact they are the opposite.

Manipulating someone because you know they want to have sex with you has you in control of your body.

Being manipulated into giving sex as succour removes this control.  The person manipulating takes the control.

 

 

 

It's called kinky sex. seriously we all do it. Sad face, feeling down, arguments. We want our partner to be happy and if sex is the cure, we do it or buy them a gift, or whatever to cheer them up, just like some woman withhold sex when they are mad at their man. it could be anything. Sometimes the bond is so powerful that you just cant keep your hands away and it is hard to resist. It might come across as manipulating but not the intention. Its called love.

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The thing with sex, kinky or otherwise, is that if you are deceiving a person in order to get what you want then you're not both equal participants in the act are you? Someone who is being played cannot make a clear judgement on what they want out of the encounter.

Way back I gave an example of women who disguise themselves as boys in order to seduce other women. Now, using this argument, you could say the girl's said yes to sex and wanted it, but no-one in their right mind would. It's clearly abuse. No two ways about it. And it's abuse because deception was used. But this is an extreme example.

A less extreme example would be the guy who poses as a millionaire in a nightclub to trick a 'gold-digging' girl. Still an example of deception of course, but would one have a great deal of sympathy with the 'greedy and shallow' girl? Perhaps not, but it's still deception, and it's still wrong regardless.

Oh, and I don't hate Leonard BTW. I don't have strong emotions either way concerning him. "Meh" sums my  feelings up if you're really interested. 

Wowbagger has copyright on 'Ugh Raj' so I'm bagging (Geddit? Geddit?) 'Meh Leonard' for my own.

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2 hours ago, ATOB said:

"He even tells Howard that Penny is trying to comfort him with sex and other things because of the feelings she brought up by reading, then asking him about the book"

No he doesn't. This is purely your own head-canon, nothing more. Read the script sample again. This is you trying to justify Leonard's behavior. Leonard says no such thing to Howard.

"..although he is not proud of himself.."

Except he is. He is! He even bragged about it. Read the script sample again.

"Also, it could be said that Leonard in a way is punishing her for what she insisted on doing with the book"

I sincerely hope you're wrong because what sort of person tricks another into sex as punishment? Do good guys do that sort of thing?

"Again where is the lie?"

The whole scenario is based on deception. Leonard's deception and Penny's subsequent retribution. What did you think it's about if not that?

 

The only head canon here is your hate for a fictional character, it has been evident in all your comments about Leonard.  There is no reasonable arguing with you when your ideas are all biased by your character hate.

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2 hours ago, ATOB said:

A less extreme example would be the guy who poses as a millionaire in a nightclub to trick a 'gold-digging' girl. Still an example of deception of course, but would one have a great deal of sympathy with the 'greedy and shallow' girl? Perhaps not, but it's still deception, and it's still wrong regardless.

Still deception and still wrong?  You mean the girl who is trying to trick the guy to get something from the guy, yeah, that is wrong and deceptive.  Just like the guy who poses as the millionaire.  

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4 minutes ago, Tensor said:

Still deception and still wrong?  You mean the girl who is trying to trick the guy to get something from the guy, yeah, that is wrong and deceptive.  Just like the guy who poses as the millionaire.  

Like a scientist who uses grant money to buy red vines.

what I find horrible is a man who will seriously try to use proven physiological techniques to train a woman to act like he wants. That kind of deception is the worst there is.

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10 hours ago, SRAM said:

The only head canon here is your hate for a fictional character, it has been evident in all your comments about Leonard.  There is no reasonable arguing with you when your ideas are all biased by your character hate.

Oh I do so love being told what I think!!!

Actually, I've told you I don't hate Leonard.  Indifferent and apathetic is how I would sum up my feelings for Leonard overall, but he's not unlikeable, and I'm pretty certain he's not being portrayed to be either.  The writers try to elict viewer sympathy for the character, and mostly succeed in doing so IMO.

Leonard, as a character, is entirely necessary to the assemble. It's a "straight man" role and he serves as a counter to the more "whacky" characterization of the others. He has also been adopted by many Lenny Shippers who see parallels with themselves or just find vacarious pleasure in his love story with Penny.

Personally I find him boring. I have no desire to watch a wholly good character, plus, it's simply not believeable or realistic. Of late Leonard's halo has slipped, and hallelujah for that, at last he's a little less dull! Who knows, I might even take an interest! Perhaps the writers are trying to reinvigorate the character, he had got pretty stale (and I loved him jumping rope and roared at his "sexy carrot" so they're succeeding somewhat)?

Currently though, he's still 'Meh! Leonard' with me.

9 hours ago, SRAM said:

Like a scientist who uses grant money to buy red vines.

what I find horrible is a man who will seriously try to use proven physiological techniques to train a woman to act like he wants. That kind of deception is the worst there is.

Which is why Sheldon is such a marvelous "villian". He rarely bores me. 

10 hours ago, Tensor said:

Still deception and still wrong?  You mean the girl who is trying to trick the guy to get something from the guy, yeah, that is wrong and deceptive.  Just like the guy who poses as the millionaire.  

On 19/04/2016 at 10:59 PM, ATOB said:

 

Manipulating someone because you know they want to have sex with you has you in control of your body.

Being manipulated into giving sex removes this control.  The person manipulating takes the control.

 

 

There is a difference, see above. That's why I said up thread that you can't compare someone taking advantage of getting a lift in a car to someone taking advantage of another person's body.

They are two different things, very different, opposite in fact!

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On 4/19/2016 at 10:35 PM, Tonstar17 said:

You're right, Leonard didn't need to lie to get sex from Penny. So the question is, why did he?

If you are referring to when they were dating, and he would agree to do the things she wanted to do (eg. always seeing her choices of movies, hiking, karaoke), he lied/pretended because he didn't know he was going to get sex anyway.

From The Ornithophobia Diffusion:-

Penny: Okay, we were going out. You were going to get sex anyway.

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On 04/02/2016 at 4:49 AM, 3ku11 said:

Yeah that makes sense. Always wondered why Penny waited to ask out LeonArd AGAIN whole of s5.. Guess Priya was a plot device. And another watching s4. When Leonard disowned Penny for Priya. Yet hes still talking to her lol. Was really sad when Penny said bye Leonard and put her hand on his face. Johnny nailed that scene. You really felt Leonard's pain. 

I thought it was KC who really nailed that scene, and whose pain we felt. That was really quite moving because Penny is showing self control and being adult but her pain underneath is clear to the audience (but not to Leonard). I think that's one of the saddest scenes ever.

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