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[Spoilers] Discussion: Season 10

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Posted (edited)

44 minutes ago, 5Mississippis said:

If I wasn't a Lenny, I'd be a Lice

Lice? Leoice? Leonice? Allen?

Good thing he eventually ended up with Penny...

Edited by HeWolf
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27 minutes ago, Irene said:

Re: cheating. I disagree that genes encode for complex social behaviour like cheating. Ducklings imprinting on the first moving animal? Sure. Human babies rooting for the nipple and instinctively sucking? Sure. Even genes giving us higher libidos, or a desire to mate with multiple partners. But cheating is a different beast. 

Have the "cheating" gene? Fine--don't marry, don't marry with the promise of fidelity, have a frank discussion with your spouse about opening the marriage, or ending the marriage. Maybe even seek medical assessment if your spouse's libido is exceptionally low to ensure there's not a physical or hormonal cause, and you think that's a "cause" of your wanting to cheat. All of these are viable options. But choosing to cheat--which is fundamentally about lying and being dishonest with your supposed life partner--is not ok, and not "genetically compelled". There are other behavioural options. Having those genes is no excuse for shitty behaviour. 

Thank you very much. This is the most intelligent post I've read on the subject. Agree 100%. Wish I could have said it as eloquently as you did.

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Posted (edited)

1 hour ago, 5Mississippis said:

I agree with this as this was my take-away from the episodes too. Leonard was drunk and seasick, and Mandy, based on her comment 'Oh no! Did I sleep with you too?' makes me FEEL LIKE Mandy was the aggressor and pounced. This was not a desirous, consensual act. And, despite breaking her tooth, she didn't even remember the event or who she was kissing! IMO, Leonard's number was up and Mandy swooped down as she SEEMED to working her way through any willing partners on board. NB -- I'm not casting any judgment on Mandy here either as she is a young, beautiful woman with a strong sexual appetite. As to the physical act, as long as both (or more!) of the partners are adults and consenting, I have no problem with that.  

Again, IMO, Leonard would never cheat on Penny, drunk or otherwise. And, after eight seasons of only being supportive and devoted, this episode was total character assassination just for the sake of the 9.1 scenario and punchline:

Leonard: I can't believe I'm spending my wedding night with you.

Sheldon: Really? I never imagined it any other way.

Of all the not-Penny women in Leonard's life, Alice was my favorite.

If I wasn't a Lenny, I'd be a Lice. 

The Alice encounter doesn't bother me for several reasons. The first kiss was initiated by Alice as Leonard was talking -- she started kissing him as he was mid-sentence! But for Alice's actions, I don't see that Leonard would have ever been the aggressor or initiated the act. What's more, he was shown to be completely guilt ridden over the event and even went to Penny for advice and/or permission. Even after speaking to Penny, Leonard was still shown to be very guilty and conflicted. But when push came shove, when he was actually there in Alice's arms, a gorgeous woman who desired him, he couldn't do it. He could talk all he wants about being a 'player', sleeping with one woman while dating another, but he couldn't do it. Actions speak louder than words. He left Alice, a woman who genuinely seemed to care for him and totally accept him as he is and confessed to Priya, who was not only ashamed of her relationship with Leonard but tried to change him as well. 

I love Penny but I have to agree with this too. Penny has been shown to have a rather cloudy moral compass at times:

She had sex with her boyfriend's brother to get revenge on him;

Made out with the captain of the football team while his girlfriend was puking;

Drunk slept with Leonard while dating Zack;

And there was her comment in 9.2 about 'knowing the previous guys she dated weren't above cheating because that's how we met' but then we fall into the grey area of supposition on how much she knew about their availability. Whether she was lied to or an active participant, we don't know, but, based on what we know of her past behavior, an argument could be made either way.  

For me, the Alice episode was just that: a good guy fluctuation. As for Mandy, the damning part was Leonard's two year silence on the event, which Penny forgave and went on to marry Leonard in that travesty of a ceremony (which was the real crime).    

I agree with most of what you said, except for 2 things:

I think the Mandy incident was introduced for drama and not for the gag of him spending the night with Sheldon. It was a cliffhanger made to attract viewers to watch the beginning of season 9.

The Alice incident: "The Good Guy Fluctuation" is one of my most hated TBBT episodes (and the list is not long). He ended up stopping Alice but when he Leonard talked to Penny he appeared to be very excited about "being a player". That made me very angry. He seemed unrecognizable, it was terribly OOC. But I did like the girl.

 

 

Regarding Penny: I agree that she had a troubling moral compass. I think the Mandy incident actually emphasized how faithfull she has been to Leonard. Even the thought of being unfaithful to him, as it appears, had never crossed her mind. It also appears to be not just due to her maturing, but more specific to her relationship with Leonard: before dating hin she had cheated, she didn't while they were together the first time, then she did again after breaking up with him (though that's more ambigous, maybe she and Zack weren't exclusive at the time?) and then never again when they got back together. Not that I believed it might happen before that episode, but I think it crossed out the possibility of her cheating on him almost entirely (and I'm saying "almost" just because of the saying "never say never"...).

Edited by bfm
Added the part about not cheating specifically on him
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1 hour ago, 5Mississippis said:

I agree with this as this was my take-away from the episodes too. Leonard was drunk and seasick, and Mandy, based on her comment 'Oh no! Did I sleep with you too?' makes me FEEL LIKE Mandy was the aggressor and pounced. This was not a desirous, consensual act. And, despite breaking her tooth, she didn't even remember the event or who she was kissing! IMO, Leonard's number was up and Mandy swooped down as she SEEMED to working her way through any willing partners on board. NB -- I'm not casting any judgment on Mandy here either as she is a young, beautiful woman with a strong sexual appetite. As to the physical act, as long as both (or more!) of the partners are adults and consenting, I have no problem with that.  

Again, IMO, Leonard would never cheat on Penny, drunk or otherwise. And, after eight seasons of only being supportive and devoted, this episode was total character assassination just for the sake of the 9.1 scenario and punchline:

Leonard: I can't believe I'm spending my wedding night with you.

Sheldon: Really? I never imagined it any other way.

Of all the not-Penny women in Leonard's life, Alice was my favorite.

If I wasn't a Lenny, I'd be a Lice. 

The Alice encounter doesn't bother me for several reasons. The first kiss was initiated by Alice as Leonard was talking -- she started kissing him as he was mid-sentence! But for Alice's actions, I don't see that Leonard would have ever been the aggressor or initiated the act. What's more, he was shown to be completely guilt ridden over the event and even went to Penny for advice and/or permission. Even after speaking to Penny, Leonard was still shown to be very guilty and conflicted. But when push came shove, when he was actually there in Alice's arms, a gorgeous woman who desired him, he couldn't do it. He could talk all he wants about being a 'player', sleeping with one woman while dating another, but he couldn't do it. Actions speak louder than words. He left Alice, a woman who genuinely seemed to care for him and totally accept him as he is and confessed to Priya, who was not only ashamed of her relationship with Leonard but tried to change him as well. 

I love Penny but I have to agree with this too. Penny has been shown to have a rather cloudy moral compass at times:

She had sex with her boyfriend's brother to get revenge on him;

Made out with the captain of the football team while his girlfriend was puking;

Drunk slept with Leonard while dating Zack;

And there was her comment in 9.2 about 'knowing the previous guys she dated weren't above cheating because that's how we met' but then we fall into the grey area of supposition on how much she knew about their availability. Whether she was lied to or an active participant, we don't know, but, based on what we know of her past behavior, an argument could be made either way.  

For me, the Alice episode was just that: a good guy fluctuation. As for Mandy, the damning part was Leonard's two year silence on the event, which Penny forgave and went on to marry Leonard in that travesty of a ceremony (which was the real crime).    

Thank you 5Miss.  Perfectly said throughout.  The character assassination of Leonard in 8.24 was extremely sad.  For me, it goes along with a feel or a mood of TBBT since it went into syndication.......(typed so much more, but.....)

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Happy taping day! 

Okay maybe Leoanrd didn't cheat maybe he didn't which still seem to be a hot debate around here but truth of matter is many women would not like it if their Boyfriend or husband iss other women even drunk. Amy and Bernadette are exception. She can trust them 

 

I tihnk Penny trust Leoanrd but doesn't trust other women if that makes sense. 

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7 minutes ago, MTBigBangTheoryFan said:

Happy taping day! 

Okay maybe Leoanrd didn't cheat maybe he didn't which still seem to be a hot debate around here but truth of matter is many women would not like it if their Boyfriend or husband iss other women even drunk. Amy and Bernadette are exception. She can trust them 

 

I tihnk Penny trust Leoanrd but doesn't trust other women if that makes sense. 

I think both of them trust each other. The fact that Leonard knows she flirts with doctors in her job (something that I personally don't like, not because of their relationship but because it keeps it as if the only thing she's got is her looks)  and doesn't freak out about it every day shows how much he trusts her.

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45 minutes ago, bfm said:

I think both of them trust each other. The fact that Leonard knows she flirts with doctors in her job (something that I personally don't like, not because of their relationship but because it keeps it as if the only thing she's got is her looks)  and doesn't freak out about it every day shows how much he trusts her.

Well she doesn't have the brains for it. You know, IRL you have to have at LEAST at Bachelor's Degree to be a pharmaceutical representative. You can't get that at Pasedena Community College, especially if you only took one class there.

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13 hours ago, vonmar said:

This is kind of sad, how shallow and superficial are the people in this "outside the nerd world" you speak of. 

Not at all. Penny is a better person than Amy in every respect except scientific ability. Ever since Amy was introduced, unattractive and unpleasant, I've thought it's rather a pity that in TBBT world beauty is more than skin deep, and you can judge a book by its cover, so far as the women are concerned.

As for Amy being an ugly duckling, that's long ago, and she's done what most ugly ducklings sadly do - grown up into an ugly duck.

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12 minutes ago, BigBang15 said:

Well she doesn't have the brains for it. You know, IRL you have to have at LEAST at Bachelor's Degree to be a pharmaceutical representative. You can't get that at Pasedena Community College, especially if you only took one class there.

And Sheldon has what four or five degrees and what does he have to show for it? His career has been a total bust.

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8 minutes ago, JohnPhD said:

Not at all. Penny is a better person than Amy in every respect except scientific ability. Ever since Amy was introduced, unattractive and unpleasant, I've thought it's rather a pity that in TBBT world beauty is more than skin deep, and you can judge a book by its cover, so far as the women are concerned.

As for Amy being an ugly duckling, that's long ago, and she's done what most ugly ducklings sadly do - grown up into an ugly duck.

Oh boy. LOL

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Re: cheating. I disagree that genes encode for complex social behaviour like cheating. Ducklings imprinting on the first moving animal? Sure. Human babies rooting for the nipple and instinctively sucking? Sure. Even genes giving us higher libidos, or a desire to mate with multiple partners. But cheating is a different beast. 
Have the "cheating" gene? Fine--don't marry, don't marry with the promise of fidelity, have a frank discussion with your spouse about opening the marriage, or ending the marriage. Maybe even seek medical assessment if your spouse's libido is exceptionally low to ensure there's not a physical or hormonal cause, and you think that's a "cause" of your wanting to cheat. All of these are viable options. But choosing to cheat--which is fundamentally about lying and being dishonest with your supposed life partner--is not ok, and not "genetically compelled". There are other behavioural options. Having those genes is no excuse for shitty behaviour. 

Yes! Couldn't have said it better myself

Sent from my HTC One_M8 using Tapatalk

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1 minute ago, wowbagger said:

and in the meantime - and I really cannot believe that this needs to be reiterated so fucking often - it is possible to enjoy BOTH characters, Penny AND Amy.

Boo-yeah!

THANK YOU.

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Posted (edited)

5 minutes ago, wowbagger said:

and in the meantime - and I really cannot believe that this needs to be reiterated so fucking often - it is possible to enjoy BOTH characters, Penny AND Amy.

Yeah and that a character is more than beauty too. As all concepts, beauty is a relative trait as well.

Edited by spidergirl

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9 hours ago, April said:

There's a link to the study in the sciencealert article @MTBigBangTheoryFan linked earlier if that helps.

 

9 hours ago, April said:

There's a link to the study in the sciencealert article @MTBigBangTheoryFan linked earlier if that helps.

Thanks.  My apologies as I missed the link, when I was reading the article the first time.    After reading that, I really don't see where it shows anything.  They even admit their conclusions are tentative, and require more study.  That their error bars are rather large and they also point out that this study, is a direct contradiction of a previous study.  So, I'm not sure what exactly you think this proves.   All I really see is a call for more investigation, as no one is sure, at that time, whether there is a demonstrable genetic link and if there is whether it's in men or women.  

It's also interesting that the finding is much stronger in women, replicates some previous studies in women, but only does it in men for the first time.  They don't rule out the possibility that the results may be a statistical anomaly for this study group.  So, I don't see where there shows anything for Leonard, but it would possibly explain Penny's actions, earlier in her life.  

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Re. cheating - Here's a good way to determine it.  If it's something you wouldn't do in front of your SO (anything physical with another person), then it's cheating.  If it's something you would do, and you still love and care for your SO, then it's not.

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Re. cheating - Here's a good way to determine it.  If it's something you wouldn't do in front of your SO (anything physical with another person), then it's cheating.  If it's something you would do, and you still love and care for your SO, then it's not.


Hmm Never thought about about it that way. Good point. But I hope you peck in cheek or a hug and not coitus In from of SO


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13 minutes ago, wowbagger said:

and in the meantime - and I really cannot believe that this needs to be reiterated so fucking often - it is possible to enjoy BOTH characters, Penny AND Amy.

So what? It's quite possible to enjoy unpleasant characters. Beverly and Kripke are two of my favourite occasionals. I didn't mind Amy when she was just obnoxious, as Sheldon's "friend who is a girl". It's when she became repulsively needy and a slave to her hormones that I began to dislike the character.

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6 minutes ago, Kathy2611 said:

Re. cheating - Here's a good way to determine it.  If it's something you wouldn't do in front of your SO (anything physical with another person), then it's cheating.  If it's something you would do, and you still love and care for your SO, then it's not.

Something similar, if you don't want your SO doing something sexually, and you're doing it, you're cheating.  

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7 minutes ago, Kathy2611 said:

Re. cheating - Here's a good way to determine it.  If it's something you wouldn't do in front of your SO (anything physical with another person), then it's cheating.  If it's something you would do, and you still love and care for your SO, then it's not.

Not necessarily. Just got married and was standing in the wedding party line for people to congratulate you. My ex girlfriend (who was there with her husband) came up. It's not unusual to give or get a kiss on the cheek. She comes up and plants a kiss right on the lips in front of wife and family. Wife wasn't happy though she knew it wasn't my fault. I'm not sure how I could of avoided that.

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10 minutes ago, JohnPhD said:

So what? It's quite possible to enjoy unpleasant characters. Beverly and Kripke are two of my favourite occasionals. I didn't mind Amy when she was just obnoxious, as Sheldon's "friend who is a girl". It's when she became repulsively needy and a slave to her hormones that I began to dislike the character.

Can you please be more specific as to exactly what it is she did to make her "repulsively needy and a slave to her hormones."

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Just by been on this forum most of us are cheating. Lol. I ogle Penny all the time. But my SO knows my obsession and is fine with it. I think. Just because it's fictional doesn't make it right. On another note. If you caught your other half with a blow up doll. Would you consider that cheating? And no I haven't got one of penny.

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20 minutes ago, Chrismo said:

Not necessarily. Just got married and was standing in the wedding party line for people to congratulate you. My ex girlfriend (who was there with her husband) came up. It's not unusual to give or get a kiss on the cheek. She comes up and plants a kiss right on the lips in front of wife and family. Wife wasn't happy though she knew it wasn't my fault. I'm not sure how I could of avoided that.

In that scenario, I would say you definitely didn't do anything wrong and with her it depends.  For example, I know a girl who kisses every male she knows on the lips as a greeting.  And females she gives bear hugs.  She's extremely affectionate.  It's just her nature.  The first time she met my husband, he got a bear hug like me.  The next couple of times she saw him, she kissed him on the lips.  It's always closed mouth with her but it's just the way she is and it doesn't bother me.  

In your case, maybe she felt comfortable enough with you.  After all, she did get an invite, right?  

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