Jump to content

[Spoilers] Discussion: Season 10


Tensor
 Share

Recommended Posts

Regarding the temperature comment... this hit sooo close to home for hubby and me!  I am a person who is constantly cold (thank you, broken thyroid).  Hubby says I'm probably so cold because I emit a lot of heat; he even calls me a "furnace"!

  • Like 2

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

4 hours ago, Chrismo said:

He did it because he thought Leonard would move in with Penny when they got married. Since that didn't happen Amy became less important.

I want so much to say I disagree with all of this this, but unfortunately, no.

After revisiting S8 and S9, I do not think Sheldon was originally serious about an engagement, at least with the proper motivation.   If we recall, Sheldon was still not expressing his feelings to Amy at the time the ring first appeared.   The ring was there, but it seems the main reason Sheldon was going to give it to her was because his mother gave it to him, he knows its purpose, and it seemed to be a logical progression in their relationship.

Consider the timeline and the bits and pieces of information we've received on the subject thus far:

Before the ring even appeared, Sheldon was consumed by thoughts of commitment about the "Flash", which I think was intertwined with his consideration of commitment to Amy.    To him commitment was something you agree to adhere to with a set schedule and rules to regulate the parameters of the relationship.  He spent so much time focused on Lenny's lengthy engagement and why they hadn't set a wedding date.   It seemed he was analyzing Lenny to come to a conclusion on how he should proceed with Amy, not out of emotion, but cause and effect.   You get engaged and then get married, but if Penny and Leonard love each other, why have they not made it to the alter already?  Is knowing you love someone enough?

Shamy break up.   Sheldon calls his mother to say he is going to return the ring.  it's only reasonable, since there is no need for it anymore, right?  He puts up a failed fight to get Amy back by passing off sexual and reproductive insults toward her in person and via the internet, but not once does he express his love or desire to take make amends so they can take their relationship to the next level.   He only expresses fear that Amy will marry someone better than him.  So, it sounded to me that Sheldon was heartbroken but not because he missed Amy, as much as the potential of someone better than him getting her.   Injured pride, there, Shelly?    Lenny agree to stay behind, and Sheldon stops pursuing Amy. 

Voila!   The ring appears again out of the safe and Sheldon confesses before the camera that he was going to give it to his girlfriend, Amy, but they hadn't broached the subject.   "I had a ring to give to a girl, and she rejected me," Sheldon said.   He didn't say I wanted to marry a girl and she rejected me.    There is a difference between presenting an object for the sake of doing it versus expressing a desire for an action and then presenting the ring as a representation of a promise based on heartfelt emotion.

Sheldon has a conniption over claiming he is over Amy and later comes out of his room to state that he's going to ask Amy to marry him.  Why?  Not because he is ready to get married, but because he may be able to use it as a bribe to get her back and resume their relationship.   Sheldon catches Amy with Dave, and the ring goes back into hiding in the safe.   The desire to fight or interrupt in order to propose to Amy loses its appeal.   Resentment rears its ugly head over heartbreak here.

Sheldon begins to learn to embrace his feelings.   He makes mention of being a wedding planner, wants another girlfriend to keep his loneliness at bay, fears having a pigeon as a bride, etc.   It is evident that the emotion is finally catching up to desired action.   Sheldon wants Amy.   Shamy reconcile, but the ring doesn't deserve a passing mention.   Instead, having coitus takes the spotlight.

Meemaw visits.   Amy learns about the ring.   Sheldon confesses to having the ring and having thought about giving it to her but didn't because they broke up.   Meemaw gives Amy and Sheldon her reluctant blessing, and apparently the gift of Sheldon's virginity has overshadowed the hope of a proposal, for now.    

So, here is my conclusion to the matter.   The gift of Sheldon's genitals was an act of love.    His previous consideration of giving Amy an engagement ring was not, not because he didn't love her, but that he wasn't giving it to her for the right reasons nor was he really ready.   An engagement would have been compulsory based on social convention due to the length of time of the relationship.   A proposal would have been devoid of his true feelings because he didn't understand what his feelings were at the time, nor the  implications of the damage caused in their relationship by not considering Amy's feelings and needs.   The relationship was still pretty much all about him.

Now I see Sheldon working on learning to be a better boyfriend to Amy without some regulatory agreement but based on his love, admiration, and desire to make her happy.   Sheldon is striving to leave his comfort zone to become familiar with the unfamiliar and tackle the trials and errors that go into a relationship.   He's attempting to break down the walls and embrace who and what he really is without fear that he will hurt or be judged by his girlfriend for his weaknesses.   He's learning compromise.  He's recognizing they have problems that both need to work on if they are going to have any success for a future as a couple.   He's taking Amy into consideration, although not perfectly, and recognizing his part in making the relationship work.

Do I think Sheldon has forgotten about the ring?   Not at all.   I believe it is very much on his mind, but I hope the next time it makes its appearance, it is going to be well thought out, purposeful, and backed by sincere emotion when the time is right.  I hope an engagement will happen not simply because he has a ring in his possession, because he wants to keep Amy around, or because society dictates it's what should happen.    I hope it will be because he respects Amy for making him a better man, and he wants/needs her as his love and life partner in every way in order to be happy.    I hope it will be a natural rather than forced progression of their relationship, and because he knows just how deep his feelings for Amy run.   Finally, I hope it will be because he finally recognizes Amy over Lenny as his life support and best friend.

I don't think Sheldon's desire to propose ever stopped.    It has just been put on hold for a bit for a more sincere and meaningful opportunity.

Edited by jenafan
  • Like 8

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I think all of us are guilty of seemingly "double" standards depending on a situation, context, perspective, and the way we are feeling that day.

I for one think Sheldon did want coitus with Amy, but not so much for the desire as to show her how much she means to him.   In fact, that is what he said.

Do I think he finds her attractive?  Definitely!

Do I think Amy was being irrational after a night of non-sleep?  Perhaps.   Her exaggeration of the word "accommodating"?  No.   I think Amy believes she is Sheldon's savior and that no one would ever put up with or be willing to make the sacrifices she has to be with him.   She wants her halo.

I would really love it if the writers would show some of her weaknesses where Sheldon ends up being her savior or she needs to apologize to him for some failure on her part.  Please show us that she needs him as much as he needs her; something besides a sparing of intellectual wit amongst each other.

  • Like 5

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I, too, got the impression that Sheldon is very much into Amy.    Sensitive to temperature, yes.  In more ways than one.

Sorry if I am part of the buzzkill.   I am really in a very very happy place right now with Shamy.   However, I do enjoy looking at all the aspects of the good and the bad in their relationship.     I'm not all Sheldon or all Amy, but I do admit to siding with Sheldon a lot more.   As I mentioned in the Shamy thread, I think it is because I know more about Sheldon's background than Amy's which allows me to have more sympathy for him.  

However, one area I am sympathetic to is Amy's perpetual longing for a physical relationship with Sheldon, not so much coitus, but the desire to be near him, to touch him, to be held by him.   This is definitely a very important aspect of the relationship for her and she wants Sheldon to be comfortable with it as well.   Amy craves his nearness.   Sheldon knows this.   So, how could he not know that refusing to snuggle might hurt her feelings?   At times he shows he cares, and other times, be blows her off.   Sometimes I want to wring his neck for being so inconsiderate when Amy has assured him that sex won't be an issue, but then when Amy throws in his face how much she has done for him, I want to wring her neck.   Is she keeping score?   Does she not grasp that Sheldon has to put up with her, too?

Consider it one of my flaws, but I just can't look at anything with solid rose-colored glasses where everything is sunshine and rainbows.    Even if something is good, I can find something bad to bring up for discussion as well.

I'm not a romantic.  It makes it difficult for me to understand where Amy is coming from sometimes when she gets frustrated because Sheldon is not as idealistic as she would like him to be.   I'm a very generous person.   This makes it difficult for me to understand Sheldon's selfishness and thoughtless behavior toward the woman he loves.    That is where other posters like @April, @Kathy2611, @wowbagger, @Desdemona and also @camelliayao help me to see what perhaps I'm blinded to.   

I don't always agree, but  to see others' perspective is enlightening to say the least.

 

Edited by Tensor
Comments edited.
  • Like 6

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

  • Tensor locked this topic

Let me make this perfectly clear.  This is the discussion thread, not a shipping thread.   Not all comments have to be supportive, and can, in fact, be entirely negative.  If you only want supportive or positive comments, that is what the shipping threads are for.  

Also, keep you comments directed at the show, not at other posters; don't generalize all of a ship; and speak for yourself.   If you don't like posts, feel free to post your thoughts ON THE SHOW.   We have no problems with correcting facts, but everyone is allowed to post their opinions, without others denigrating, or making negative comments,  about the post or those opinions. 

Finally, if you feel a post runs counter to our rules, report it, don't answer it.  If you do report a post, there is no need, in fact it can be counterproductive, to answer the post in the thread.  

  • Like 4

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

  • Tensor unlocked this topic
1 hour ago, JE7 said:

And now for something completely different.....

18.gif.ff00a253207afaa292959c5121a6d089 (1).gif

I just wanted to repeat here that I laughed out loud at 10.01. I stopped laughing at the three-way um... hug. But the show was charming ( except for the weird three-way). And wow the casting. Lot of thespian weight being swung around.  

  • Like 7

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

5 hours ago, jenafan said:

I don't think Sheldon's desire to propose ever stopped.    It has just been put on hold for a bit for a more sincere and meaningful opportunity.

I agree with this and a lotnof the points you made. For me, his lack of revisiting the ring boiled down to making sure he was truly ready and, just as important, so was Amy. Sheldon had his world rocked by the breakup and he had to do a lot of thinking before the reconciliation took place. He also continued to evaluate his own behavior and take on things as the relationship resumed.

He made a lot of progress and isnt the same guy anymore in many ways. Hes learned to compromise, to display empathy, and to be flexible. He shared his hoarding issue with Amy and learned she was sympathetic with it. Hes now experimenting with cohabitation with Amy and all that comes with it.

I think he wants to make sure that when all is said and done a marriage will go the distance. Undoubtedly he realized that his previous ideas about a marriage proposal didnt take into account what that kind of commitment truly meant. And just maybe a part of him wants to make sure Amy is all in too and that he isn't blindsided by a change of heart on her part (I won't go so far to say that her first night jitters is an example of Amy having second thoughts on it). That sting he felt during the breakup couldn't have entirely disappeared from his memory regardless of the positives that he says came out of the experience.

 Hes being more serious about the relationship, and thats a good thing!

Edited by 2L344
  • Like 5

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

51 minutes ago, April said:

And I think that she really doesn't. The girl has a few moments of very understandable frustration and using that against her feels rather unfair towards the character as if she's not allowed to feel that way and how dare she not be grateful for every scrap of attention she gets from Sheldon!? I really don't think she sees herself as a martyr or saint or whatever just because she's frustrated that Sheldon is making their progress needlessly difficult by putting up a silly fight about every little thing.* It is exhausting which led to their breakup in the first place.

*Emphasis on "little" here cause contrary to popular fandom wisdom she really doesn't make many demands beyond just wanting to have a good time with Sheldon so his resistance on that level is a bit ridiculous. On the big issues she is very much respecting his slow progress and gives him the time and space he needs.** I mean, the most aggressive bigger move she made was probably the attempt to move in during S6 and even then she respected Sheldon's boundaries with regards to his intimacy issues in that she didn't demand to share his room with him but rather that she'd move into Leonard's room - a scenario that apparently she still thought would happen in 10x04, hence her surprise when Sheldon agreed to stay with her in Penny's one-bedroom apartment instead.

** And even with that she isn't flaunting this as something that deserves a medal. It's usually other characters who do that by insisting that their relationship is somehow wrong for its slow progress on the physical aspects and they're treating Amy like this suffering girlfriend they have to pity because Sheldon is just "the worst". So in result she gets complimented on how she's managing Sheldon and being to patient with him. Like, take Alfred complimenting her on her patience for waiting so long to even hold hands with Sheldon while she's all "It was a lot hotter than it sounds." I honestly don't think she minds their slow progress that much as long as Sheldon isn't an ass about it - which he frequently was in the past. Thankfully a lot less now after the breakup and his change of heart. There are remnants of it surfacing every once in a while that elicit a "dude, can you not?!?" reaction from her but I guess that'll mellow out over time as well. The next episode in particular seems to be a bit of a breakthrough on that front.

 

EYGzv_f-maxage-0.gif

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

1 hour ago, April said:

And I think that she really doesn't. The girl has a few moments of very understandable frustration and using that against her feels rather unfair towards the character as if she's not allowed to feel that way and how dare she not be grateful for every scrap of attention she gets from Sheldon!? I really don't think she sees herself as a martyr or saint or whatever just because she's frustrated that Sheldon is making their progress needlessly difficult by putting up a silly fight about every little thing.* It is exhausting which led to their breakup in the first place.

*Emphasis on "little" here cause contrary to popular fandom wisdom she really doesn't make many demands beyond just wanting to have a good time with Sheldon so his resistance on that level is a bit ridiculous. On the big issues she is very much respecting his slow progress and gives him the time and space he needs.** I mean, the most aggressive bigger move she made was probably the attempt to move in during S6 and even then she respected Sheldon's boundaries with regards to his intimacy issues in that she didn't demand to share his room with him but rather that she'd move into Leonard's room - a scenario that apparently she still thought would happen in 10x04, hence her surprise when Sheldon agreed to stay with her in Penny's one-bedroom apartment instead.

** And even with that she isn't flaunting this as something that deserves a medal. It's usually other characters who do that by insisting that their relationship is somehow wrong for its slow progress on the physical aspects and they're treating Amy like this suffering girlfriend they have to pity because Sheldon is just "the worst". So in result she gets complimented on how she's managing Sheldon and being to patient with him. Like, take Alfred complimenting her on her patience for waiting so long to even hold hands with Sheldon while she's all "It was a lot hotter than it sounds." I honestly don't think she minds their slow progress that much as long as Sheldon isn't an ass about it - which he frequently was in the past. Thankfully a lot less now after the breakup and his change of heart. There are remnants of it surfacing every once in a while that elicit a "dude, can you not?!?" reaction from her but I guess that'll mellow out over time as well. The next episode in particular seems to be a bit of a breakthrough on that front.

We can all get frustrated at times and there are always two sides to the story. But Amy almost constantly complaining about a lack of intimacy and about basically waiting for consent (in previous seasons, at least, and it was way more than a few times) was off-putting and unnecessary element. As well as believing (and saying) that no one else would have Sheldon (and that one was fairly recently).

 
Not to mention pretending to be sick so he would give her a bath (and some pleasure through that), then, a few years later, bail out on him when he gets sick.
  • Like 5

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

24 minutes ago, April said:

And I think that she really doesn't. The girl has a few moments of very understandable frustration and using that against her feels rather unfair towards the character as if she's not allowed to feel that way and how dare she not be grateful for every scrap of attention she gets from Sheldon!? I really don't think she sees herself as a martyr or saint or whatever just because she's frustrated that Sheldon is making their progress needlessly difficult by putting up a silly fight about every little thing.* It is exhausting which led to their breakup in the first place.

*Emphasis on "little" here cause contrary to popular fandom wisdom she really doesn't make many demands beyond just wanting to have a good time with Sheldon so his resistance on that level is a bit ridiculous. On the big issues she is very much respecting his slow progress and gives him the time and space he needs.** I mean, the most aggressive bigger move she made was probably the attempt to move in during S6 and even then she respected Sheldon's boundaries with regards to his intimacy issues in that she didn't demand to share his room with him but rather that she'd move into Leonard's room - a scenario that apparently she still thought would happen in 10x04, hence her surprise when Sheldon agreed to stay with her in Penny's one-bedroom apartment instead.

** And even with that she isn't flaunting this as something that deserves a medal. It's usually other characters who do that by insisting that their relationship is somehow wrong for its slow progress on the physical aspects and they're treating Amy like this suffering girlfriend they have to pity because Sheldon is just "the worst". So in result she gets complimented on how she's managing Sheldon and being to patient with him. Like, take Alfred complimenting her on her patience for waiting so long to even hold hands with Sheldon while she's all "It was a lot hotter than it sounds." I honestly don't think she minds their slow progress that much as long as Sheldon isn't an ass about it - which he frequently was in the past. Thankfully a lot less now after the breakup and his change of heart. There are remnants of it surfacing every once in a while that elicit a "dude, can you not?!?" reaction from her but I guess that'll mellow out over time as well. The next episode in particular seems to be a bit of a breakthrough on that front.

Ahhhhhh.....yes and no. I agree with a lot of this, I do. I also spotted - and loved - that Alfred was going all 'poor Amy' and Amy essentially brushed aside the sympathy with a 'you don't understand'. In general, I'm enjoying Amy very much so far this season.

And I also agree (and pointed out) that a lot of the time it is people around Sheldon and Amy who are all 'poor Amy', rather than Amy herself.

BUT. I wouldn't entirely absolve Amy of fishing for pity. On two occasions that I can think of (Spoiler Alert and Meemaw) she has said that she's the best girlfriend Sheldon will ever get. Which is distinct from the arrogance of 'watch your tone. You're with a popular girl now'. It is....not okay to say to your partner 'no one else will have you but me'. As to outright cadging for sympathy? It isn't a guarantee that Amy will defend her relationship with 'it's more than hot. It's binding', or that sort of thing. And Amy has said in front of all of her friends -and Sheldon, I believe? - '[Someone and Raj - Howard? Stuart? Cinnamon?] will have sex before Sheldon and I do, I'm sure of it.'

Now, Sheldon isn't guiltless of this sort of thing, obviously. He has said 'I don't see anyone else putting up with your nonsense'. And who can forget that noisome 'Slick, huh?' to Raj. But (a) Amy has still used the language of 'nobody will have you but me' more often, and has herself made reference to her frustration and the things she has given up, and (b) Sheldon has been shown, multiple times, to have internalised the message by worrying about whether Amy will leave him. Him, personally. And it actually happened, as well. Amy DID leave him (yes, yes, because of his own behaviour. Exactly as predicted by everyone around him).....aaaaaannnd that's all I'm going to say about that because I don't want to relitigate Season Nine.

But look, honestly it's almost a tossup whether Amy finds Sheldon a joy or a burden. It sort of meanders from episode to episode. My point isn't whether Amy has a right to want XYZ, or whether Sheldon has a right to withhold PQR. Let's assume both are true. My objection is that, far too often, the chosen story is one in which Amy wants a thing that really doesn't seem like a Sheldon thing, Sheldon is a jackass about it. Hilarity ensues.

the 'poor Amy' thing, I think, really comes from that choice of story. Obviously, there is nothing wrong with Amy wanting the thing, usually. Equally, there isn't anything wrong with Sheldon NOT wanting to do it. The issue is really with the way that he pushes back. But persistently the show frames it as 'Sheldon is unreasonable to not WANT the thing', which is where I get my hackles up. And I also get tired with the persistent thread being 'Amy pushes, Sheldon resists'. You put that dynamic in place long enough, it's hard to avoid having Amy look like a saint (or a nag), and Sheldon look either like a brat, a jackass, or a misunderstood toad under the harrow. And that is doing a disservice to both characters. I am bone-weary (aren't we all?) of the story being disproportionately about Sheldon being difficult while other people manage him*. I guarantee that if Amy, or Leonard, or Penny, were allowed more often to be the batshit ones, and Sheldon were the straight man, there'd be less speculation about Who Gets To Be The Wronged Party.

*Especially since the show so often conflates Sheldon's completely valid reluctance to do a thing (oh, the touch-averse misophobe isn't a fan of handholding at the cinema!) with the bratty way he EXPRESSES the reluctance. And then every so often scrambles to give you a sob story or whatever to say 'See? He isn't so bad!' Argh I rarely thought the reluctance was the problem, and the sob story doesn't excuse his bad manners!

  • Like 6

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

2 hours ago, wowbagger said:

And Amy has said in front of all of her friends -and Sheldon, I believe? - '[Someone and Raj - Howard? Stuart? Cinnamon?] will have sex before Sheldon and I do, I'm sure of it

She was referring to Howard and Raj.

From The Proton Displacement:-

Howard: Buddy, I was just joking around.

Raj: Yeah, well, sometimes your jokes hurt.

Howard: You’re right. I didn’t realize I was making you feel that way. It was very brave of you to tell me.

Raj: Thank you. It wasn’t easy.

Amy: They’re gonna have sex before Sheldon and I do, I knew it.

  • Like 3

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

2 hours ago, April said:

I'll actually challenge you on points (a) and (b) here.

Sheldon did the whole "nobody will put up with you" stick more often than Amy did all the while treating their relationship as if it's her job to praise the ground he's walking on. With the difference being that he's casually saying these things to her face, from the literal "I don't see anybody else putting up with your nonsense!" to outright telling her he'd call this boyfriend/girlfriend thing off for some little disagreement or whatever - even as late as S8! By comparison Amy has a few isolated moments of frustration - the two incidences you mention were happening in rather emotional situations, one of them not even with Sheldon present.

Similarly, she doesn't strut around with Sheldon's arrogance and tell him she'd leave him because she's such a superior specimen as he likes to think of himself for the longest time. In fact she is worrying far more often that he'll break up with her and especially in S8 she's fearing he's still a flight risk. She has to walk on eggshells around him and bottles up her anger until it explodes. It's only then that Sheldon's ego is rightfully taken down a notch or two.

So ultimately, no, I can't agree here in terms of simple quantity that these kind of scenes occur. And as said, the show is fresh in my memory because of my rewatch. I was actually looking for these kind of scenes that supposedly show how entitled Amy is but no, they rarely if ever surface. It's really not a character trait I would associate with her. She just wants to make this work and actually be the best girlfriend for him because she loves him and she has a hard time when Sheldon isn't reciprocating or at the very least honest with her (for example: instead of saying he isn't ready yet to move in with her he's beating around the bush which leads to Amy's outburst).

 

We.....may need to agree to disagree on whether those things are equivalent. To me, there is a quite significant gear shift between saying 'I am amazing and you are with someone amazing. Worship my greatness.', and 'You are difficult and nobody else will put up with you'. Neither is ideal, sure, but one is more dangerous than the other. The closest, if you like, to that sort of sentiment comes from Sheldon's telling Amy that he is the flame to her moth. Which I would still argue is more Type 1 than Type 2. And....Amy's deeply unimpressed affect at that remark says it all, really. Whereas every time Amy's said that she's the best Sheldon can do, her hearers have seemed to take it seriously. In other words, Amy's 'nobody but me will ever want you' carries weight, in-show, whereas Sheldon's is clearly dismissed as delusion. 

As to Sheldon's threatening to break up with Amy over minor shit: which are these instances? Serious question. I know there's Table Polarisation (ugh, stupid episode), but where has Sheldon held the continuance of the relationship over Amy's head as conditional on her behaviour? My reading is that both Sheldon and the show have usually been quite explicit that Sheldon's issues are his issues. Especially as late as Season Eight. Unless you're referring to him pouting about Amy saying he's not perfect in 8X01? Which...come on now. And even if we're going to dignify that exchange as some sort of relationship power move from Sheldon, 'having a tantrum because you are not uncritically on my side' is also behaviour Amy displayed with Sheldon regarding her spat with Wil Wheaton, where she was furious with Sheldon because he didn't take her side - even though she was being monumentally unreasonable. AND Sheldon ultimately did battle to defend her honour (even though, again, Amy was clearly in the wrong there), whereas to the best of my recollection, in 801, Sheldon takes care that Amy doesn't even hear him pouting to Leonard that Amy hurt his feelings and he wants to break up. 

As to Amy walking on eggshells around him in Season Eight: again, when was this? Amy in Season Eight was vexed at Sheldon (and could and should have been vexed-er, in my opinion, but that's another story) for his behaviour and told him so, melted when told how much her good opinion means to him and how afraid he is of failing in her eyes, and then spent quite a lot of the next few episodes strutting her stuff at being the popular girl, and joining with Sheldon in rejoicing over the 'more than hot. It's binding'-ness of the relationship agreement, and what hard work poor Lenny were. The only times that she has betrayed worry about the relationship (going by her fanfic) have to do with fearing to ask certain questions because she's afraid she might not like the answers. That suggests, not that she's afraid that Sheldon will leave her, but that they might not want the same things. In general, I would blink at any suggestion that the Amy of Season Eight was in any way timorous or fearful. Sheldon and Amy in Season Eight were communicating more clearly and respectfully than they had been in quite some time. Until that sodding finale. When, again, Amy showed no signs of being afraid that Sheldon would leave her (I mean, why should she?)

In general, the show has taken considerable pains to show us that:

a ) Amy has romantic options who are not Sheldon, and

b ) Amy is willing to exercise those options, whereas Sheldon has eyes for nobody else.

That is an inherent power imbalance, right there. And the show has also taken considerable pains to show us that Sheldon went to pieces after Amy broke up with him, while Amy seemed more or less okay. That reinforces the power imbalance. Is that Amy's fault? Of course not. But does it mean that we should be wary when Amy reminds Sheldon of the imbalance? I am.

As to Sheldon's behaviour in Spoiler Alert: I'm not saying Sheldon's right there. Or let me rephrase: once again, I think his reservations are completely valid. But he is expressing them, as you say, dishonestly. So I do not remotely blame Amy for ripping up at him. But there is a difference between saying

a ) You are a cowardly, prevaricating sack of shit

even b ) You are a cowardly, prevaricating sack of shit, and I am DONE with you

and c ) I am the best you can do.

A huge difference, in my eyes. 

As to the rest of your post: I agree! I think we can all agree that we're 100000% done with Amy being gratuitously shat on from a great height for the LOLZ. Hurrah!

  • Like 3

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

2 hours ago, April said:

Constantly??? No, she really didn't. I rewatched the show start to finish this summer and there were like a handful of moments spread over the seasons. I honestly have no clue why Amy is getting the blame here when it usually comes from other characters, like Penny and Bernie teasing them about their sex-less relationship or Sheldon freaking out about even the most harmless suggestions. Yes, Amy ultimately hopes for more but as said, she's giving him the time and space he needs. What she wants is mostly have a nice time with him and anything intimate usually doesn't go beyond what is already been established as within the parameters of their relationship as meticulously negotiated and written down in their RA back then.

It's annoying that the show would often play up the "Amy can't get some, haw haw" joke over the years but most of that isn't coming from Amy herself at all. Which leads me to Wow's post:

I'll actually challenge you on points (a) and (b) here.

Sheldon did the whole "nobody will put up with you" stick more often than Amy did all the while treating their relationship as if it's her job to praise the ground he's walking on. With the difference being that he's casually saying these things to her face, from the literal "I don't see anybody else putting up with your nonsense!" to outright telling her he'd call this boyfriend/girlfriend thing off for some little disagreement or whatever - even as late as S8! By comparison Amy has a few isolated moments of frustration - the two incidences you mention were happening in rather emotional situations, one of them not even with Sheldon present.

Similarly, she doesn't strut around with Sheldon's arrogance and tell him she'd leave him because she's such a superior specimen as he likes to think of himself for the longest time. In fact she is worrying far more often that he'll break up with her and especially in S8 she's fearing he's still a flight risk. She has to walk on eggshells around him and bottles up her anger until it explodes. It's only then that Sheldon's ego is rightfully taken down a notch or two.

So ultimately, no, I can't agree here in terms of simple quantity that these kind of scenes occur. And as said, the show is fresh in my memory because of my rewatch. I was actually looking for these kind of scenes that supposedly show how entitled Amy is but no, they rarely if ever surface. It's really not a character trait I would associate with her. She just wants to make this work and actually be the best girlfriend for him because she loves him and she has a hard time when Sheldon isn't reciprocating or at the very least honest with her (for example: instead of saying he isn't ready yet to move in with her he's beating around the bush which leads to Amy's outburst).

And that is the point I'm trying to make here. Amy isn't positioning herself as this "woe is me" kinda girlfriend - but everybody else in the show is. The show was making a lot of jokes about their unusual relationship combined with the Sheldon-being-Sheldon modus operandi like "Look as that outrageous thing Sheldon said, isn't that guy a hoot! And Amy makes such a funny face in reply!" But in the vast majority of these incidences Amy didn't demand anything from Sheldon. Sometimes she hasn't even much to do with anything in that scene and still gets a dig at her expense in some way, like the punchline at the end of the itchy sweater episode - it's funny because Amy is always horny and Sheldon is so oblivious, hilarious, amirite?? So in the end feels like Amy the character is getting blamed for the whole show having a fondness of certain stupid stories and jokes. And it leads to a very skewed interpretation of her character. The show's attitude towards Shamy's relationship =/= Amy's attitude towards their relationship.

And as you outline above, usually Sheldon's reluctance to do a thing isn't the issue - it's Sheldon's bad manners about it. The thing is, in moments when the writers allow them to be open and honest with each other, which are the moments that really count for me, they show that Amy is very understanding when Sheldon just let's her know what is wrong. She's no relationship expert nor can she read his mind so what is she supposed to think when he won't tell her? So in result the moments of her being frustrated come when he's a bratty idiot about these things.

Anyway, things have been vastly improving on the direction the whole show is taking now so I'll be excited to see where the next episodes will lead us! :)

Well, I said "almost constantly" and that it was "more than a few times", most notably being in season six, I think later seasons are much better in that aspect. And yes, Penny and Bernadette would tease Amy about that and that wasn't really nice (though they all tease or sometimes harp at each other over certain things), but she should have still respected Sheldon's POV (more) rather than just obiding that rule, and stand up to Penny and Bernadette if she felt offended. And there is a difference (even if slight) between saying "nobody else puts up with your nonsense" and "no one else would ever put up with YOU (HIM)". With Sheldon it was as late of season eight while with Amy that comment was made as of late of second half of season nine, after she got back together with him and they had coitus. And she told that behind his back, to one of his dearest family members. Sheldon would say such things to her personally at least.

 
Amy's reasoning to want to stay away from Sheldon in season eight finale just because he was being honest with her, and then not wanting him to attend his best friends' wedding ceremony (though via Skype only), while she DOES attend it with everyone else, even though Sheldon had known Leonard and Penny far longer and had actually made them think about their relationship more, resulting in them deciding to elop... that was the time the writers just took most of Amy's characters flaws, put it all together as a plot drive, and thus set up that dreadful break up arc (though, the same could be applied to Sheldon, he definitely isn't blameless). And Amy had apparently dated three other men while Sheldon did what exactly in those six months? Not getting over her?
 
I probably judge some of her flaws too harsh. But that is because writers can use them for such plots while, in the same time, they try making us feel sympathy for her. Sheldon taking off at the end of season seven was, in itself, almost just as bad, but it didn't result in toxic angst half-season cliche-filled story arc with some OOCness as an icing on the cake. And then they literally have Sheldon break the fourth wall and say that the break up was a good thing and that it was due to his faults (or something along those lines). Oh, and they bombard us with the supposed character development of Sheldon while not showing what has Amy learned over the break up (and it isn't like she shouldn't have matured too, right)? Except maybe the time Sheldon doesn't want to get back together with her after she asks him too, and she is upset and sees that she might have hurt him and that she, maybe, shouldn't have broken up with him.
 
Yes, the writers caused all that. But what is the difference between "writers made them that way" and "the characters behave that way"?
 
By the way, Amy broke up with Sheldon because he confessed to thinking of Flash while making out with her, then showed up at the ceremony and offended her. But six months later, after one friendly date, she wants him back and hopes that he would jump to that chance. Swell, amiright?
 
Come to think of it, why working on the whole "Amy wants more intimacy/Sheldon isn't ready" thing for almost three years, then have them break up after they had make up, at the time he was thinking of proposing? And Sheldon's friends seriously suggesting him to try and pick up a date IN A BAR? That things was stupid all the way around, and that, to be fair, is the writers' fault.
Edited by Mislav
  • Like 2

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

7 hours ago, wowbagger said:

the 'poor Amy' thing, I think, really comes from that choice of story. Obviously, there is nothing wrong with Amy wanting the thing, usually. Equally, there isn't anything wrong with Sheldon NOT wanting to do it. The issue is really with the way that he pushes back. But persistently the show frames it as 'Sheldon is unreasonable to not WANT the thing', which is where I get my hackles up. And I also get tired with the persistent thread being 'Amy pushes, Sheldon resists'. You put that dynamic in place long enough, it's hard to avoid having Amy look like a saint (or a nag), and Sheldon look either like a brat, a jackass, or a misunderstood toad under the harrow. And that is doing a disservice to both characters. I am bone-weary (aren't we all?) of the story being disproportionately about Sheldon being difficult while other people manage him*. I guarantee that if Amy, or Leonard, or Penny, were allowed more often to be the batshit ones, and Sheldon were the straight man, there'd be less speculation about Who Gets To Be The Wronged Party.

*Especially since the show so often conflates Sheldon's completely valid reluctance to do a thing (oh, the touch-averse misophobe isn't a fan of handholding at the cinema!) with the bratty way he EXPRESSES the reluctance. And then every so often scrambles to give you a sob story or whatever to say 'See? He isn't so bad!' Argh I rarely thought the reluctance was the problem, and the sob story doesn't excuse his bad manners!

Thank you. The bold part-So much this.  And frankly, I'm done with this same fucking narrative.

 

19 hours ago, boys3allc said:

Like this.

image.jpeg

 thank you !

Edited by serena_1995

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

  • Tensor locked this topic
  • Tensor unlocked this topic
  • Tensor locked and unlocked this topic
  • Tensor locked and unlocked this topic
  • Tensor unlocked and locked this topic
  • Tensor pinned and unpinned this topic

Create an account or sign in to comment

You need to be a member in order to leave a comment

Create an account

Sign up for a new account in our community. It's easy!

Register a new account

Sign in

Already have an account? Sign in here.

Sign In Now
 Share

×
×
  • Create New...

Important Information

We have placed cookies on your device to help make this website better. You can adjust your cookie settings, otherwise we'll assume you're okay to continue.