[Spoilers] Discussion: Season 10

[veejay]

17 minutes ago, April said:

Words would be helpful you know...

What about laughing?

[April]

2 minutes ago, veejay said:

What about laughing?

You're being a bit cryptic sometimes, so excuse my confusion.

[veejay]

13 minutes ago, April said:

You're being a bit cryptic sometimes, so excuse my confusion.

I beg you. There's no problem at all.

...sometimes...

[AllyAnne]

I feel like the writers just don't know what to do with Leonard and Penny anymore.  They use them to help further other stories, but it seems like the writers are stuck without inspiration for a story of their own.  I know there are a lot of characters, and I am a proud Shamy-lover, but I still feel like they could balance things a little more.  And Raj---they REALLY don't have a clue there either.

I am also in the group that found the comic-con stuff disappointing.  I'm not sure what I was expecting, but I didn't find humor in any of it.

[April]

Yeah, what's a bit frustrating to me about Lenny is really that there IS such a well of possible stories for the writers to explore but for some reason they... just... don't? Or maybe just not yet??

I mean, take this "the nerd wore the hot girl down" running gag. Correct me if I'm wrong here Lennies, but were those so prominent in past seasons? It feels like they're cranking them up to eleven recently. And if I could make one wish then it would be great if that would lead to a meaty storyline that would eventually also get rid of this tired old joke. Maybe they will be coming back to that "Penny is a bit frustrated with her life/job/getting older" thing from S9 and after the 215536934th "Oh Penny is so hot and settled for the nerd!! hurrhurr" joke she's fed up with that. Because she isn't the 20something girl anymore and she's struggling to find her identity beyond that - especially since she's surrounded by people who all have so much passion for their hobbies and jobs. And for once I would love to hear from Leonard what else he loves about her - and there's a lot to love about Penny. He can be so schmaltzy and corny, just let him wax poetically about her character/personality for once, you know? I would love for Lenny to deepen their emotional connection beyond being snarky best buds. Come on, writers, you can do that!!

[Lady in Red]

8 hours ago, joyceraye said:

Thanks, djsurrey. That's very interesting. American tourists must be very disappointed if they arrive in England or Wales having booked a 'van' in advance to drive around sightseeing in.

We used to own a Ford Econoline E-150 conversion van, and it held seven very comfortably.  The seats were more comfortable than our living room chairs.  You could also fold down the rear seat into a double-bed.  The E-250 and E-350 versions were generally used as delivery vehicles, or by plumbers/mechanics/carpenters as their shops on wheels.  They could also be configured to be small school buses or to transport the elderly or handicapped.

i would not expect a van to hold ten people without confirming it in advance.  A minivan does hold seven people, but without the extra head and legroom that we had in our full-sized van.  Minivans may not have the towing capacity that a full-sized van has.  Minivans replaced stationwagons as the vehicle of choice for young families.

[littleknee]

I agree with some of the recent posts on the Lenny storyline. I always hoped the show would develop Penny’s passions. As others have noted, she always seemed more interested in the idea of being famous and rich than necessarily loving the craft of acting. I loved that episode in season 6 where she realized she was passionate about the people in her life. That’s awesome! But I was hoping it would progress and develop beyond that. Penny is smart and curious and invested when it comes to people … it’s not like there aren’t scads of hobbies & professions that revolve around that idea – counseling, sociology, teaching. It’s not fun being bored all the time, nor is it fun watching someone be bored. I hope this season delves into what Penny really wants to get out of her professional and personal life … and celebrates the relationship that Lenny have rather than constantly playing on the “she settled” narrative.

[Nogravitasatall]

7 hours ago, nickelette424 said:

And that's all well and good, but correct me if I'm wrong,  but she considered it a form of cheating did she not?  I didn't make a statement on whether or not she forgave him out of she should or shouldn't.  I responded to the comment that the kiss  wasn't cheating.  Her forgiveness doesn't mean she didn't feel like he cheated or it wasn't a big deal.  It just means that she was able to move on from it. 

Yes, I agree. And now that event is no longer of consequence. It's a small tragedy in the show's history that they so cheaply used this device. The show made a calculation that they could add enough mitigations (lack of intent, isolation at sea, intoxication, loneliness, etc) to distinguish this as a momentary slip off his narrow hero's path and then leave it in the dust. Everyone will respond differently - letting feelings colour facts depending on their personal bias. (Look at the US general election for that effect writ large)

He did let her down his in behaviour - and then actually caused her the harm by telling her about it just before they got married, taking away forever any joy of that they, or anyone, might otherwise have felt at that moment. What a punch in the guts from TPTB for the characters and viewers. A cheap shot, for a cheap cliffhanger. Morons. (But it worked LOL. They got more content). 

Sheldon, on the other hand, exists entirely to cause harm. He is like an opposite of Leonard. He generally only does good as an exception. But look at those pecs and those big eyes. Biases again at work.

It is after all just a TV show. YMMV. Call it what you will - but I will be partisan and assume he didn't have any intent at the time, and so it was less an act than an accident.

 

 

 

 

 

 

Edited October 28, 2016 by Nogravitasatall

[joyceraye]

3 minutes ago, Lady in Red said:

We used to own a Ford Econoline E-150 conversion van, and it held seven very comfortably.  The seats were more comfortable than our living room chairs.  You could also fold down the rear seat into a double-bed.  The E-250 and E-350 versions were generally used as delivery vehicles, or by plumbers/mechanics/carpenters as their shops on wheels.  They could also be configured to be small school buses or to transport the elderly or handicapped.

i would not expect a van to hold ten people without confirming it in advance.  A minivan does hold seven people, but without the extra head and legroom that we had in our full-sized van.  Minivans may not have the towing capacity that a full-sized van has.  Minivans replaced stationwagons as the vehicle of choice for young families.

If anyone seriously is thinking of crossing the pond and hiring a vehicle, whatever you do, don't ask a British firm for a 'van'.  I don't know what the American word is for what we call a 'van'. Lady, your nice vehicles sound like what we call a 'people carrier' ( What we'd call Berne's new one ) or a 'minibus'. A minibus is the type big enough to stand up in that schools or old folks' homes have. A minivan over here holds only a driver and one passenger at the front. Behind their seats is a space for goods, tools, parcels etc but no seats. It's a bit like the vehicle the illegal helium was delivered in (we'd call that a large van) only very much smaller, smaller even than Shenny's little pick-up truck.

[3ku11]

Am I the only here who found the Leonard got Penny jokes funny? I guess I am into dark humor. I watch Family Guy and American Dad lol. Trust me you think this is bad, you seen nothing yet :D. Compared to Peter and Louis and Stan and Francine, Lenny are butterflies and rainbows. But maybe because it was not one sided. I always maintained, when it comes to the "Oh how did Leonard get Penny" Jokes. "OH Penny sucks at acting, she cannot catch a break their" jokes. Neither seem that bothered by it. I also saw it differently, in Leonard got validaiton for himself, in the fact he was inspiring a bunch of new generation, I come from a another crop of coinholders, it does get better! Besides, I don't think in this instance, the Leonard getting Penny jokes were that big of deal. Simply because Leonard also made jokes about Penny's lack of commitment. Oh I declined her proposal, almost like Oh she was not ready to be with this hunk of spiceman heh. Leonard came across very favorable in this episode imo. Penny did not, I felt sorry for her. And I get the notion would of been nice if Penny got some validation.

But to be quite honest, it was never going to happen. Seeing it is a comedy, and considering the demographic Serial Apist targeted. I just don't think this was going to be her moment. It was going to be more about a bunch of nerds, in awe of how Leonard got Penny. And sure I agree, they are more then that. But these nerds don't know that, they are just going of what has been ingraved in them based on socities conventions and rules. Guess I am just saying I found the storyline realistically written. It was mean, it was savage, it was cruel. It was real life, and maybe that is why some are not resonating with it, because of that. But that is why I personally loved it because of that, and why TBBT is one of my fav sitcoms of all time. It was almost closure for Penny, yeah maybe not the fairytale closure. But closure in maybe a mean way, but closure she needed nonetheless. I feel her real validation was Season 6 The Monster Isolation, when she prooved she can act. I always hoped they would make Penny pursue Broadway. Maybe she still will. Who knows maybe by series end she wins a Tony , theirs more potential their, then mainstream acting. I guess Penny needs to find her passion outside Leonard and the group. Not sure where that is going to come from though. I would like to see her do more plays, pursue that potential she showed three seasons ago, prob won't happen though. 

Edited October 28, 2016 by 3ku11

[wowbagger]

4 hours ago, April said:

Yeah, what's a bit frustrating to me about Lenny is really that there IS such a well of possible stories for the writers to explore but for some reason they... just... don't? Or maybe just not yet??

I mean, take this "the nerd wore the hot girl down" running gag. Correct me if I'm wrong here Lennies, but were those so prominent in past seasons? It feels like they're cranking them up to eleven recently. And if I could make one wish then it would be great if that would lead to a meaty storyline that would eventually also get rid of this tired old joke. Maybe they will be coming back to that "Penny is a bit frustrated with her life/job/getting older" thing from S9 and after the 215536934th "Oh Penny is so hot and settled for the nerd!! hurrhurr" joke she's fed up with that. Because she isn't the 20something girl anymore and she's struggling to find her identity beyond that - especially since she's surrounded by people who all have so much passion for their hobbies and jobs. And for once I would love to hear from Leonard what else he loves about her - and there's a lot to love about Penny. He can be so schmaltzy and corny, just let him wax poetically about her character/personality for once, you know? I would love for Lenny to deepen their emotional connection beyond being snarky best buds. Come on, writers, you can do that!!

Seriously. Nobody's saying Leonard can't find Penny hot/attractive/beautiful, or say so. But I believe he loves other things about her, surely? Her kindness, her protectiveness of her peeps, her laconic smarts? Well, let him say so. Penny, after all, has praised Leonard's intellect, his passion about so many things, and called him cute. 

And you know what? Let me unmask my batteries. Penny is one of my absolute favourites, and I really resent that her career moments are being hijacked to create some sort of pallid second-hand sop to Leonard's ego - in a way that also does a massive disservice to his character. Faugh.

And also: just what happened to Leonard? What happened to the sweet optimist who wanted to get young girls interested in science and rallied his friends around, or who tried to see if he could find meaning in the life's work of a dead colleague? Why does he so seldom find joy in anything? Why is his default setting sighing, pissing and moaning? Why does the show seem so freaking allergic to the concept that Leonard can take responsibility for his life and his choices? His mother ruined his life, he says. Sheldon ruined his life. You are a grown man, Leonard Hofstadter. If you don't like your living situation, move. You have a flat right across the hall.

And I'm going to harp on this, because where Leonard goes, so goes Lenny. While the writers think of Lenny as How The Nerd Got The Hot Girl, they'll never think of anything more to do with the couple. Why? Because they don't think of Leonard as his own agent with his own faults to be overcome and therefore his own stories to be told. They think of him only as the vessel for their vicarious ambitions to Get The Hot Girl. Which means that - now that Lenny are married - Leonard's story is basically done, in their eyes. Which means there's little enough to be done with Lenny except to intermittently check in on them to reassure ourselves that, yes, Penny is still Hot, and Leonard Wore Her Down. 

It's a pity, because I like Lenny when they're bantery and affectionate. I think KC and JG have chemistry when they're teasing each other with obvious love and sass (not meanness). And I think there's potential for stories there. Stories that the show seems uninterested in telling.

Edited October 29, 2016 by wowbagger

[3ku11]

3 hours ago, wowbagger said:

Seriously. Nobody's saying Leonard can't find Penny hot/attractive/beautiful, or say so. But I believe he loves other things about her, surely? Her kindness, her protectiveness of her peeps, her laconic smarts? Well, let him say so. Penny, after all, has praised Leonard's intellect, his passion about so many things, and called him cute. 

And you know what? Let me unmask my batteries. Penny is one of my absolute favourites, and I really resent that her career moments are being hijacked to create some sort of pallid second-hand sop to Leonard's ego - in a way that also does a massive disservice to his character. Faugh.

And also: just what happened to Leonard? What happened to the sweet optimist who wanted to get young girls interested in science and rallied his friends around, or who tried to see if he could find meaning in the life's work of a dead colleague? Why does he so seldom find joy in anything? Why is his default setting sighing, pissing and moaning? Why does the show seem so freaking allergic to the concept that Leonard can take responsibility for his life and his choices? His mother ruined his life, he says. Sheldon ruined his life. You are a grown man, Leonard Hofstadter. If you don't like your living situation, move. You have a flat right across the hall.

And I'm going to harp on about this, because where Leonard goes, so goes Lenny. While the writers think of Lenny as How The Nerd Got The Hot Girl, they'll never think of anything to do with the couple. Why? Because they don't think of Leonard as his own agent with his own faults to be overcome and therefore his own stories to be told. They think of him only as the vessel for their vicarious ambitions to Get The Hot Girl. Which means that - now that Lenny are married - Leonard's story is basically done, in their eyes. Which means there's little enough to be done with Lenny except to intermittently check in on them to reassure ourselves that, yes, Penny is still Hot, and Leonard Wore Her Down. 

It's a pity, because I like Leonard when they're bantery and affectionate. I think KC and JG have chemistry when they're teasing each other with obvious love and sass (not meanness). And I think there's potential for stories there. Stories that the show seems uninterested in telling.

I completely disagree. When has Leonard ever said His mother ruined his life? I don't think it is fair to say Leonard is immature, and needs to grow up. Or somehow handicap Sheldon again. Sheldons not going away lol, no matter what they do.  But I see the complete opposite someone who is content and no longer feels any grudges, or ill will to anyone who made him who he is. The Lenny schitkt is just that, an act. Lenny seem fine playing along with Penny was worn down, Leonard cannot catch a break. It's fine because they both do it, they don't seem bothered by it at all. So I am not sure why fans are. The thing is Lenny are both snarky to each other, so I don't see how this is them being mean to each other. I am a big Lenny fan, and I laughed at the whole thing, its just their banter. I am not saying your wrong I just think your over simplyfying things a tad. They are a realistically written couple. That is what they are. They are not a fairytale. Whether how they write them has zero to do with their chemistry, that is a writing issue, zero to do with the actors chemistry. 

Edited October 29, 2016 by 3ku11

[Nogravitasatall]

@wowbagger, they run the show. They must be happy with it. No one complains by turning to other channels, so they will keep doing mostly what they do and then drop  in the odd and random pearl amongst what might otherwise might be dross. That said,  with the three shows I have seen I have laughed - and thankfully the gurning fits are not prolonged. So as comedy it still works - maybe programmatically - but nonetheless. The flapping clown act is bearable through the adroitness of his companions. But to repeat, I'm not busting a gut to catch any of the new stuff and my expectations on the L/P front are limited. And when  I see things as when Howard noted the excellence of Leonard's French toast (?) I have a good laugh  - though it were but a passing moment, it was funny. I don't expext anything like "The 43 Peculiarity" again. Yet, fewer moments as props would good.

[Chrismo]

I don't think the Lenny storyline was bad. It was a little like 3kull said realistic though I think they have beaten the hot girl nerd storyline. To me though the writers blew a chance of a group episode here. The whole gang going to Comic Con. To me it's a story made in heaven. could have had Wil Wheaton on as someone earlier suggested. Instead we got a dinner party which included Bert and Stuart. I like them but I have seen enough of them. Same goes for Bernie and the baby storyline. I might laughed if Bernie went into false labor at comic con. The guys in costume meeting other people like them. Instead we got last night.

[brilliantfool]

19 hours ago, joyceraye said:

She probably doesn't want to do her old stuff any more. In Solder Excursion Howard pointed out to Leonard how Penny's interests had changed. She was amazed herself that she was in a lab, making something. Leonard said he was going to get her into  coin collecting next year. Her old friends have probably moved on just as she has. Where do all the 30-something weekend car-washers, Orange Wednesday cinema - goers, DIY enthusiasts and supermarket shoppers come from ? From the ranks of people who ten years ago were doing what 20 - somethings do, that's where.

Penny can still find an enthusiasm of her own if she wants to, and take Leonard along. She's good at dancing, has taste when it comes to furnishings, is better at handicrafts than she pretends to be and would be an asset to a pub quiz team when it came to plays and popular culture. She learned what she needed to know about pharmaceuticals, not a million miles away from chemistry. We know she was capable of study when it was a way out of the dole queue.

I'm sorry but I disagree. I don't think she really enjoys this life, more like goes on auto-pilot. I have many friends who were never gonna do a 9to5 job but then they settled for it cause they need the money... Doesn't mean they're happy. It's just a compromise with life. I'm not saying Penny wants to go to clubs all the time or pick up new guys, but I don't believe she's happy listening to "a bunch of crap she doesn't understand" (her own words describing science) every day and watching the mr.robot-turned-daredevil movies instead of Jersey Shore and America's Next top model. Maybe her interests have changed, but I don't believe they changed into the interests of the rest of the group.

[3ku11]

5 hours ago, brilliantfool said:

I'm sorry but I disagree. I don't think she really enjoys this life, more like goes on auto-pilot. I have many friends who were never gonna do a 9to5 job but then they settled for it cause they need the money... Doesn't mean they're happy. It's just a compromise with life. I'm not saying Penny wants to go to clubs all the time or pick up new guys, but I don't believe she's happy listening to "a bunch of crap she doesn't understand" (her own words describing science) every day and watching the mr.robot-turned-daredevil movies instead of Jersey Shore and America's Next top model. Maybe her interests have changed, but I don't believe they changed into the interests of the rest of the group.

Well if she did not have the same interests as the group. Or she has a problem with the life she has. Well she shoulden't of married Leonard, she knew what she signed up for. Of course with Leonard and Penny being two of the main characters, they were always going to end up together anyway. But She diddn't just marry the guy she loves. She signed up for a culture. A Specific Geek Culture. I still remember Sheldon's line in The Killer Robot Instablity Season 2 "Umm in this case Penny, I think you would be the peculiar one". I still think this rings true. And of course Penny is still the outsider in a way. Everyone else has so much in common, she has nothing in common. It would give her perspective, to have friends just like her. Penny did not settle, she embraced her reality. But she cannot have her cake and eat it too. At this point the writing of Penny is unrealistic. And it needs a massive shake up. And I actually agree with you. But not sure the show care enough to develop Penny's career. I mean the original premise, was this hot girl impact on four eggheads. Since Amy and Bernadette though. IT has made Penny stand out less. She had this unique perspective of having this streets smart. Now with Amy and Bernadette in the mix. She just feels like the odd one out. She offered this great perspective to the show. She was wordly, and street smart. She opened a new world for the guys, outside their video games, and Leonards jacket heh. Then they brought Amy and Bernadette into the fold, and that perspective was gone. These woman are just as outstanding as Leonard and Sheldon, if not more so. Penny just feels left out in the cold. The character of Penny, and the writing. For me has been a massive issue over the past three seasons because of this. 

Edited October 29, 2016 by 3ku11

[djsurrey]

Just because she is with Leonard does not mean she can't go out with her old friends some of the time. In my experience it is having babies that really changes what one can do.

[Jonny]

Was there some wearing down? Yes. Is it more than wearing down that got Lenny together in the end and married? Yes. Do we need to keep hearing about it? No.

Just move on writers.  The vast majority of viewers have been watching the series since the beginning and know their whole story so you don't need to remind us.

Edited October 29, 2016 by Jonny

[Mislav]

13 hours ago, Nogravitasatall said:

Yes, I agree. And now that event is no longer of consequence. It's a small tragedy in the show's history that they so cheaply used this device. The show made a calculation that they could add enough mitigations (lack of intent, isolation at sea, intoxication, loneliness, etc) to distinguish this as a momentary slip off his narrow hero's path and then leave it in the dust. Everyone will respond differently - letting feelings colour facts depending on their personal bias. (Look at the US general election for that effect writ large)

He did let her down his in behaviour - and then actually caused her the harm by telling her about it just before they got married, taking away forever any joy of that they, or anyone, might otherwise have felt at that moment. What a punch in the guts from TPTB for the characters and viewers. A cheap shot, for a cheap cliffhanger. Morons. (But it worked LOL. They got more content). 

Sheldon, on the other hand, exists entirely to cause harm. He is like an opposite of Leonard. He generally only does good as an exception. But look at those pecs and those big eyes. Biases again at work.

It is after all just a TV show. YMMV. Call it what you will - but I will be partisan and assume he didn't have any intent at the time, and so it was less an act than an accident.

 

 

 

 

 

 

What does Sheldon have to do with the discussion about was that boat kiss cheating or not?

[JE7]

15 minutes ago, Mislav said:

What does Sheldon have to do with the discussion about was that boat kiss cheating or not?

That was just an aside to the main discussion, but you knew that.....

[Mislav]

23 minutes ago, JE7 said:

That was just an aside to the main discussion, but you knew that.....

WTF?

[Nogravitasatall]

2 hours ago, Mislav said:

What does Sheldon have to do with the discussion about was that boat kiss cheating or not?

As much or as little as you want.  

[joyceraye]

True, brilliant. Penny may not be entirely happy with what she has left after the changes she's made to her life. Who is ? In her case it's still all within her control if she wants to get passionate or enthusiastic about something while she's child-free.

I think she makes a contribution to the group even if she doesn't realise it. She still has the street smarts and she gets out and about in her work and liaises with more people in varying occupations than do the others, bringing a perspective from outside the lab they wouldn't otherwise get. She might fall asleep in seminars but she's not stuck behind a desk or 

7 hours ago, brilliantfool said:

I'm sorry but I disagree. I don't think she really enjoys this life, more like goes on auto-pilot. I have many friends who were never gonna do a 9to5 job but then they settled for it cause they need the money... Doesn't mean they're happy. It's just a compromise with life. I'm not saying Penny wants to go to clubs all the time or pick up new guys, but I don't believe she's happy listening to "a bunch of crap she doesn't understand" (her own words describing science) every day and watching the mr.robot-turned-daredevil movies instead of Jersey Shore and America's Next top model. Maybe her interests have changed, but I don't believe they changed into the interests of the rest of the group.

lab bench all day.

[Jonny]

Penny has become pretty 'life smart', when Sheldon gave her that compliment a while back I thought he had a point to an extent but there was still examples where she didn't show that.

But now heading into Season 10 I am seeing it more and more and Sheldon was right and she has changed a lot from early season Penny who was quite naive and immature at times to someone who can be really mature. Marriage, steady job, simply getting older who knows but the transformation at times is noticeable and quite remarkable. She comes across as more mature and provides more wisdom and sage advice than her husband now who has become the perpetual whiner, who would have thought that? If anyone has some issues in that group relating to real life she is the one to go to.

She seems in a great place to me in having a loving husband and a great set of friends who value her advice and contributions to the group. We were told that she wishes she could perhaps do something different with her career but then in the season opener we learn that she has been moved to a new sales area now and genuinely seemed a lot more happier.

I have no worries or concerns about her at all right now.

Edited October 29, 2016 by Jonny

[Chrismo]

But the show 

1 hour ago, Jonny said:

 

I have no worries or concerns about her at all right now.

But that will change. It has never been smooth sailing for Penny. Her career and her relationship with Leonard  has always been up and down. Certainly more than any other character of the show. It's been that way for ten years. Do you really expect it to change now?

Edited October 29, 2016 by Chrismo