[Spoilers] Discussion: Season 10

[Chrismo]

1 hour ago, sarah7 said:

 

I must concede that Shamy's dynamic this season had been like a thousand times better than previous seasons, even reminiscent of their golden age (aka Seasons 4 and 5) but that's not enough to make me a happy shipper, because I still think the narrative as a whole is too skewed in Sheldon's favor (I mean, it all revolves around him, his issues, his needs, his family, his decisions and so on), but I guess I must get used to the idea that it's going to be like that forever and there's little to no chance for it to change.

 

 

Thursday's episode is a perfect example of their relationship skewed in Sheldon's favor. The picture of his brain he gave to Amy was total self ego stroking. When Amy tried to spice the evening of with the HP gowns instead of being happy he had a shitty fit that she went to the Wizarding World of Harry Potter without him.(Like she was actually snuck there to see it by herself LOL). The tag at the end shows they went to the Wizarding World even though it was Amy's birthday not Sheldon's. Then only after that they decided on coitus. I can't imagined why you think their relationship is skewed in Sheldon's favor. LOL

[3ku11]

Well yeah the Shamy relationship is severely imbalanced. But what's new.

[sarah7]

17 minutes ago, Chrismo said:

Thursday's episode is a perfect example of their relationship skewed in Sheldon's favor. The picture of his brain he gave to Amy was total self ego stroking. When Amy tried to spice the evening of with the HP gowns instead of being happy he had a shitty fit that she went to the Wizarding World of Harry Potter without him.(Like she was actually snuck there to see it by herself LOL). The tag at the end shows they went to the Wizarding World even though it was Amy's birthday not Sheldon's. Then only after that they decided on coitus. I can't imagined why you think their relationship is skewed in Sheldon's favor. LOL

Actually, it was not. In the middle of all my complaints, I must concede that it was a sweet detail. I mean, it was not only to brag about his size (of brain), the most important part of it was that it showed his cerebral activity when he was thinking of her, which was the part of the brain related with emotions and attraction, so, it was very much, in a way, a framed note that said "I  Love You".

So, I truly liked that, it was an original and lovely gift, perhaps the sweetest Sheldon had ever gave her.

Edited December 19, 2016 by sarah7

[Chrismo]

7 minutes ago, sarah7 said:

Actually, it was not. In the middle of all my complaints, I must concede that it was a sweet detail. I mean, it was not only to brag about his size (of brain), the most important part of it was that it showed his cerebral activity when he was thinking of her, which was the part of the brain related with emotions and attraction, so, it was very much, in a way, a framed note that said "I  Love You".

So, I truly liked that, it was an original and lovely gift, perhaps the sweetest Sheldon had ever gave her.

Although that's sorta his word on that. Everyone knows he like feeding his ego. He also knows Amy would fall for that line. He's not as clueless about things like that as he pretends to be.

 

[sarah7]

32 minutes ago, Chrismo said:

Although that's sorta his word on that. Everyone knows he like feeding his ego. He also knows Amy would fall for that line. He's not as clueless about things like that as he pretends to be.

 

Well, yes, but no, not this time.

The show isn't shy when highlighting Sheldon's self-centeredness (they think it's very funny), so since there was not a direct allusion to it, I think this time he was being sincere.

It was a nice and even romantic gift for a scientist who works studying the brain and will understand the significance of it much better. Much more meaning-charged than an standard or classic gift. The show also like to give those special details when it comes to gift giving (those sentimental bastards!), much like the snowflake and the star necklaces that Leonard and Howard gave to their wives in the past.

[Carlos]

20 hours ago, 3ku11 said:

That said. The change seems permanent .... For now muhahaha 

It's not Korea man LOL.

I know. I don't think they would get paid 1 million dollars per episode in Korea. If an actor cannot be bothered to kiss with tongue (if the director so chooses) for 1 million dollars, I don't know what the world is coming to.

15 hours ago, FileXxX said:

Given that they don't, and TPTB don't seem to care, it's pretty obvious that this is not part of the contract. It's the actor's choice.

TPTB may not care, but the only thing we can be sure about the contracts is that the actors need to do as they're told and not of much else. After all, that's what they get paid for. 

[JE7]

5 hours ago, sarah7 said:

Thanks Camelliayao! I always enjoy reading your posts too, because I agree with a lot of your opinions on the show

The bolded part, I agree and I think it all comes back to inconsistencies in writing again. At first I was shocked when a given character did/said something I considered outrageus and inconsistent with her/his previous story/behaviour, but then I had to come to terms with the fact that they don't really care about consistency in characterization, and they are only looking for the joke of the moment (even if a lot of times said joke ends up being not that funny) and that they have the habit of raise up certain issues just to immediately swept them under the rug and leave them there, awaiting for the next opportunity to use them to "shake things up", sometimes damaging severely a character/relationship's image (take latest taping's Lenny's RA! armageddon as an example)

I must concede that Shamy's dynamic this season had been like a thousand times better than previous seasons, even reminiscent of their golden age (aka Seasons 4 and 5) but that's not enough to make me a happy shipper, because I still think the narrative as a whole is too skewed in Sheldon's favor (I mean, it all revolves around him, his issues, his needs, his family, his decisions and so on), but I guess I must get used to the idea that it's going to be like that forever and there's little to no chance for it to change.

 

Let's remember that of the three most important female characters of the show, the one that was always portrayed as having the highest libido had always been Amy (for "comedic" purposes, I guess, given that she was the oddest of them, actually, I don't blame them, as cringe worthy as those scenes had to be, I found Mayim to be hysterical in those) and ironically, she was paired up with the guy with the lowest (absent) libido ( for comedic?! purposes as well), we saw her lusting no only after her boyfriend and and hot hunk, but after her hot bestie and her second less hot and less close girlfriend, and even getting a bit bothered by a simple and innocent group hug!

But okay, I've been a vocal supporter of the notion that Amy's is a lot of talk but much shyer in practice that we would expect from her blabber, let's ignore all her suggestive talk and actions from the past. Let's focus in her post-coitus insinuations (scarce yes, but not nonexistent), her eagerness to admire and touch Sheldon's bare legs, her excitment when Sheldon's words seemed an invitation to naughtyness and her dissappointed expression when they turned out to be an invitation to try his new laptop, and even Sheldon's complaints about her lascivious stare at his naked persona aren't for you enough evidence of her desire for experience sex more often, there's always the fact that we are not just talking about libido or sexual drive here,  but about love, and that I guess for her intimacy with Sheldon is not just about satisfying her animal instincts, but first and foremost, an expression of love, a desire that she is still holding back because of him, in consideration of him, and no, I'm not trying to sanctify Amy, I'm just saying that the writers are still struggling with giving the relationship a correct balance. I've read you saying in other posts: "Show, don't tell", well, I'm being told by the show that everything is fine, that the once-a-year thing works for her and that she is the one that sets coitus off the table, yet, in several ocassions they are showing me something else, why are they shooting themselves in the foot? That's what I can't comprehend.

You told me you can't find enough evidence that she is craving more intimacy that what she actually has, well, I tell you I can't find the slightest evidence that she is indeed absolutely happy and fine with the situation other than she is, again, not forcing Sheldon and waiting for him to perhaps catch up with her someday. Please note I'm not saying she is a suffering martyr or that the other aspects of their relationship aren't important, I'm just saying that the imbalance, even if it's less pronunciated as it used to be, persists and I'm not sure if someday it will reach an equilibrium.

Now, great you don't care that much about their sex life (it's not like I'm losing any sleep over it either ) but do you know who do cares? TPTB, the do care, a lot, because Shamy's sex life is their current cash cow, it was their sex life what gave them a world record, and they want to milk it as much as they can. Because the imbalance in that regard could be fixed without much scandal, we don't even have to see them kissing on bed again, a couple passing comments about them having a regular and normal sexual life and it won't be an issue anymore, but it would also be the end of that storyline and they won't have excuses to make a fuss about it and try to bait the audience with the topic anymore.

That world record was a made up one, it was live plus 7 most viewers but still not a fraction of the viewers of the mash finale had live but they didn't have plus 7 back then so "it dosent count" and that live plus 7 "record" has been broken since

[Jonny]

There are are a lot of scenes that are open to interpretation and people can make valid arguments or points backing their view, but nobody is going to convince me that the MRI gift scene is one of them. I think it's obvious what the intention of the gift is.

If you genuinely think that gift was ego stroking by Sheldon or if you think that the gift wasn't very romantic then I am not sure you fully get their relationship and why the brain has such an important foundation in their relationship. I can't think of a better gift he could have given her, knowing the allure that the brain has in their relationship and what Amy does for a living. Amy loved the gift because a) she loves brains most especially Sheldon's, and b- she knows exactly what the scientific evidence in the scan shows, that he loves her.

Well I thought it was one of the romantic gifts I have EVER seen given on television, but maybe that is just me and I don't watch as much TV as some.

Edited December 19, 2016 by Jonny

[veejay]

18 minutes ago, Jonny said:

.....

Well I thought it was one of the romantic gifts I have EVER seen given on television, but maybe that is just me and I don't watch as much TV as some.

I can follow your thoughts. But I suspect a similar meaningful purpose behind this illustrated gift.

[Jonny]

14 minutes ago, veejay said:

I can follow your thoughts. But I suspect a similar meaningful purpose behind this illustrated gift.

Yeah I thought that was very romantic as well, I did say 'one' of.   Also when she looked so despondent that her car was broken and he got her a new one I thought was romantic. Perhaps not on the scale on the two examples we are talking about here but I knew the meaning behind the gift and saw the love behind the gesture in that scene.

Edited December 19, 2016 by Jonny

[wowbagger]

7 hours ago, Chrismo said:

Although that's sorta his word on that. Everyone knows he like feeding his ego. He also knows Amy would fall for that line. He's not as clueless about things like that as he pretends to be.

 

I mean...unless you're clairvoyant, it sort of HAS to be 'his word on that' that he was thinking of Amy. This is not an argument worth having, I'm afraid. It boils down to irreconciliable base assumptions.

If you are minded to think the worst of Sheldon, you will never ever believe that he is capable of a thoughtful gift. If you feel like giving him even 0.00000000000000001% the benefit of the doubt then you'll probably shrug your shoulders and move on. I doubt I could convince you that the brain is a sexual organ for the Shamy or that this gift was thoughtful or romantic. I suppose you could TRY to convince me that it is neither charming nor thoughtful to give your neurobiologist partner an image of your brain, given that a shared massive intellect is one thing you have in common. You could TRY to get me to think that Sheldon was actually thinking of trains the whole time his brain was being scanned. You could TRY to convince me that in its way this is as big a betrayal as Sheldon shouting out someone else's name in bed. You could TRY, I suppose. But I have to tell you that this feels like something you either like immediately, or you don't at all. And never the twain shall meet.

[JE7]

2 hours ago, wowbagger said:

You could TRY to convince me that in its way this is as big a betrayal as Sheldon shouting out someone else's name in bed.

@wowbagger  a wordsmith such as yourself must constantly fight the siren song of exaggerated hyperboli as it diminishes and detracts from your otherwise sterling post

It was well thought out and stated 

Edit: I do agree with it being a case of irreconcilable base assumptions

Edited December 19, 2016 by JE7

[wowbagger]

1 hour ago, JE7 said:

@wowbagger  a wordsmith such as yourself must constantly fight the siren song of exaggerated hyperboli as it diminishes and detracts from your otherwise sterling post.

I don't agree with a word of it but it was well thought out and stated 

dammit I KNEW that would come back to bite me in the arse! A hit, my friend, a palpable hit. (hangs head, shuffles)

[JE7]

There does seem to be two extreme versions of Sheldon occupying the same space at times, version A is a an innocent childlike genius who is the best hope of mankind and must be defended to the last breath from any and all criticism. The other version B is a cold calculating sociopath who revels in manipulating people and situations for his own gain whose every action must be opposed for the good of humanity.

They seem to exist at the same time and in the same space..... It may be the Mandela effect 

Edited December 19, 2016 by JE7

[Carlos]

21 hours ago, FileXxX said:

If you look at the countless paparazzi photos of Kaley kissing another man, you can see that this is exactly how she kisses on screen. That's why I'm 100% certain it's their choice. Given that kissing is usually very intimate, I'm sure the actors have a say in this or they specifically stated what they're willing to do or not when they signed the contract. If they signed a contract that says they have to french kiss every time, it would be different. I doubt they did though.

People thinking that TPTB purposely make Sheldon and Amy's kissing scenes look awkward amuse me. I think this is just how Jim and Mayim kiss. End of the story.

The fact that you say it's end of story by no means means that it is. All that you're giving are simply opinions and not fact so no end of story in sight. If we go by facts , from the TR we know that in the take of the kissing scene between Jim and Mayim that ended up not being used, they kissed much more passionately. Also if there is (or isn't) a clause stating if they'll French kiss (or they won't) in their contracts is 100 % speculation on your part, so your certainty is, at best, a little misplaced.

[Guest]

1 hour ago, Carlos said:

If we go by facts , from the TR we know that in the take of the kissing scene between Jim and Mayim that ended up not being used, they kissed much more passionately.

You don't know that. You read someone else's opinion on that, not more, not less. If it was more passionate is purely subjective.

1 hour ago, Carlos said:

All that you're giving are simply opinions and not fact so no end of story in sight.

So are you. You have nothing to stand on.

 

1 hour ago, Carlos said:

Also if there is (or isn't) a clause stating if they'll French kiss (or they won't) in their contracts is 100 % speculation on your part, so your certainty is, at best, a little misplaced.

I never said I'm certain. I said I doubt they did because they almost never french kiss, which is an indicator for me that they're not forced to do it. You keep saying they have to do whatever the showrunner tells them to do. How do you know that? Did you read their contracts? No, you didn't. You just made that up without any reasoning whatsoever.

Edited December 19, 2016 by FileXxX

[Carlos]

30 minutes ago, FileXxX said:

You don't know that. You read someone else's opinion on that, not more, not less. If it was more passionate is purely subjective.

So are you. You have nothing to stand on.

 

I never said I'm certain. I said I doubt they did because they almost never french kiss, which is an indicator for me that they're not forced to do it. You keep saying they have to do whatever the showrunner tells them to do. How do you know that? Did you read their contracts? No, you didn't. You just made that up without any reasoning whatsoever.

So then why did you say I'm 100 % certain?  But you know what I'm out. This discussion is not worth my time.

[Guest]

3 minutes ago, Carlos said:

So then why did you say I'm 100 % certain?  But you know what I'm out.

I said I'm 100% certain it's their choice how to deliver the kiss, not that there's a clause in their contract that says it must always be french kissing.

 

[April]

I'm pretty sure there are no specific kissing clauses in their contracts either way. Neither do I think that the actors are particularly prude and want to avoid certain mouth-on-mouth action at all costs, nor do I think will the writers force things on them that they might strongly object to. Ideally you want a cooperative atmosphere on set and on all accounts that seems to be the case with TBBT.

Just to name an example: There was just recently a little interview bit in which Kaley mentioned that the writers asked her before making jokes about her S8 haircut which she found rather sweet of them. It's a harmless thing but they still made sure she's comfortable.

So all in all I'm pretty certain that whatever we see on screen is there intentionally to serve the plot/characters and everybody is doing their job voluntarily without having to be strong-armed into it by some ominous clauses in their contracts.

Edited December 19, 2016 by April

[Chrismo]

8 hours ago, Jonny said:

There are are a lot of scenes that are open to interpretation and people can make valid arguments or points backing their view, but nobody is going to convince me that the MRI gift scene is one of them. I think it's obvious what the intention of the gift is.

If you genuinely think that gift was ego stroking by Sheldon or if you think that the gift wasn't very romantic then I am not sure you fully get their relationship and why the brain has such an important foundation in their relationship. I can't think of a better gift he could have given her, knowing the allure that the brain has in their relationship and what Amy does for a living. Amy loved the gift because a) she loves brains most especially Sheldon's, and b- she knows exactly what the scientific evidence in the scan shows, that he loves her.

Well I thought it was one of the romantic gifts I have EVER seen given on television, but maybe that is just me and I don't watch as much TV as some.

I think the gift was a happy coincidence. While it served the purpose of Amy loving it for ideas you suggested it also stroked his. If you think it remotely compares to Leonard giving the snowflake to Penny or even Howard taking the necklace into space IMO your wrong. Those instance neither got any benefit from giving Penny and Bernadette those gifts.

[Jonny]

45 minutes ago, Chrismo said:

I think the gift was a happy coincidence. While it served the purpose of Amy loving it for ideas you suggested it also stroked his. If you think it remotely compares to Leonard giving the snowflake to Penny or even Howard taking the necklace into space IMO your wrong. Those instance neither got any benefit from giving Penny and Bernadette those gifts.

In terms of it being a beautiful gift with a great deal of meaning and thought behind it absolutely does compare. Those are three examples of them getting their significant other a perfect gift, based in large part on their relationships and knowing what their significant other would like.

The ego stroking theory sounds like absolute rubbish to me. The dialogue clearly states why Sheldon got that gift and the meaning behind it, if he had just given her his brain scan and that was it then maybe you would have a point. Are you completely ignoring the whole key part/meaning behind the gift, the lighting up of parts of the brain when he thinks about her?

I guess we will have to agree to disagree on the gift, its meaning behind it and whether it's romantic or not. I loved it, thought it was both a romantic and beautiful gift and at the end of the day that is all that matters to me.

Edited December 19, 2016 by Jonny

[spidergirl]

10 minutes ago, Jonny said:

In terms of a beautiful gift with a great deal of meaning and thought behind it absolutely does compare. You listed three examples of them getting their significant other a perfect gift, based in large part on their relationships and knowing what their significant other would like.

The ego stroking theory sounds like absolute rubbish to me. The dialogue clearly states why Sheldon got that gift and the meaning behind it, if he had just given her his brain scan and that was it then maybe you would have a point. Are you completely ignoring the whole key part of the gift, the lighting up of parts of the brain when he thinks about her?

I guess we will have to agree to disagree on the gift, it's meaning behind it and whether it's romantic or not. I loved it and at the end of the day that is all that matters to me.

Agree. There are lots of things that lenny and Howardete gave to their So that were really from heart and imo made really beautiful scenes. It is  Shamy's turn and it is always happy coincidences. It is  not a question of shipper' s eyes , it is more about a choice of  how the facts are understood. 

Edited December 19, 2016 by spidergirl

[wowbagger]

35 minutes ago, Chrismo said:

I think the gift was a happy coincidence. While it served the purpose of Amy loving it for ideas you suggested it also stroked his. If you think it remotely compares to Leonard giving the snowflake to Penny or even Howard taking the necklace into space IMO your wrong. Those instance neither got any benefit from giving Penny and Bernadette those gifts.

Serious question: what, to you, constitutes a legitimately thoughtful and romantic gift?

1) Why, for example, is the giver allowed to get no benefit or enjoyment from his/her gift? Consider two gift options: one where I get a tattoo of my partner's name, and one where I arrange a city break to a place I know my partner wants to visit? Even if my partner would get more pleasure out of the second option, does the first one count more because it involved my own personal discomfort?

1a) And what makes you think that Sheldon needed to give Amy a brain scan to brag about his intellect? The man's hardly a retiring wallflower about his own brain...

1b) And what makes you think Howard or Leonard got no enjoyment or benefit from the process of choosing their gifts? I'd hope they did.

2) More generally: what, to you, constitutes 'proof' that Sheldon cares for Amy? I'm not volunteering it, you understand: I'd just like to know what an answer would look like. You see, a debate is only meaningful if both parties agree on the characteristics of a proof/rebuttal. If, as I suspect, you'd respond with 'doesn't count' or 'Well, you would say that' to any example anybody would come up with, then it's not a debate. It's just the Western politics of the last year, writ small. And you know what? Pass.

[Chrismo]

Since Amy is a neurobiologist wouldn't have she noticed the orbitofrontal cortex was lit up? If so wouldn't she have asked about that. Instead Sheldon seems to have the need to point it out.

[Tenji]

Since Amy is a neurobiologist wouldn't have she noticed the orbitofrontal cortex was lit up? If so wouldn't she have asked about that. Instead Sheldon seems to have the need to point it out.

Of course he points it out. That's the best part of the gift.