[Spoilers] Discussion: Season 10

[kimbee73]

1. Okay
2. Okay. Though he didn't get upset over this.
3. Just as you laughed at the spanking I laughed how she got him to the car.
4. How can Amy think he's a grown up when he puts his underwear on his head?

He did not get upset you are correct. I never said I didn't laugh at how she got him to the car, I actually found that funny. I also laughed when Leonard wanted to know the recipe for the juice or however he asked.

The underwear was very immature and I'm not going to make the excuse it's Sheldon being Sheldon because that isn't him. This was Sheldon being a weirdo for some unknown reason to prove a point which could also have been done differently.




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[Tensor]

20 minutes ago, serena_1995 said:

Jmo but I personally think, all of those instances were wrong and disturbing , and i do have complaints about them(if i didnt voice them, i should have), just like i have complaints about Amy drugging Sheldon here.  But to each their own. 

Tis cool Serena.  I wasn't getting down on you for it, it was simply your quote was a good one to serve as a the background to answer.  

[3ku11]

I can't blame Amy for drugging Sheldon. While it can be seen as weird, disturbing almost. It was just a silly gag. Sheldon has done bad things to Amy too. Sheldon in the past has manipulated Amy too. Both have. The dynamic in their relationship is more off putting to me. I like them better when they are working as a team. Their was some funny moments. But their feels a serious imbalance in their relationship ATM. I said this on the episode thread. Either it's all on Sheldons terms. Or you see a co-parent dynamic. It's almost like Sheldon is Amy's iPhone lol. You know. So I can tolerate gags like Amy drugging Sheldon. They are just throw away lines to me. But this dynamic has been existing with Shamy for a while now. I also felt the Shamy story was far too long. Maybe cut it  down a bit. Have it in the middle would of been better. Most of the story was offputting. As said the Underwear was weird. And I guess you could argue ooc for Sheldon. But they write him so inconsistently these days. I expect him to rebound the next episode.

[jenafan]

16 hours ago, JE7 said:

 So basically you hate that the others didn't treat Sheldon with the awe and respect he deserves? They treated him exactly right, like an spoiled hyperactive toddler which is how they have to to function on a semi adult level with what is in fact a spoiled narcissistic child.

This isn't new Sheldon acting and being treated like a child is a staple of the show and shouldn't surprise anyone when it happens. It's like suddenly complaining that Penny and Bernie are both blonde as if it was a surprise after seeing it for years

I don't think anyone, no matter what their lot in life is deserves to be insulted by their own parents, and for Mary to say what she did in front of Sheldon's significant other was down right rude.     I am very upset with how Sheldon reacted to the whole thing by showing himself to be as "special" as his mother accuses him.   If the writers want me to get on board with Sheldon's growth and show that he is still Sheldon, I'm fine with it except when they take a very intelligent adult man and turn him into a laughing stock in front of the two most important women in his life for the sake of comedy to justify why Mary and Amy treat him the way they do and yet still want me to believe Amy wants to marry into this one day?

Furthermore, Amy is the one who tells others to stop treating Sheldon like a child, but then she turns around and does it herself.   She avoids coming home when he is sick.   She lies about her apartment.   Now she drugs him.    What bothers me, is that people actually thinks its okay to do these things with one's significant other, if they are perceived to be "special."   

It's not Shamy that bothers me.   I hate that TPTB want us to believe how ecstatic Amy is to be with Sheldon, but then throw in just enough by her behavior to make us wonder how true it is.     I hate that they want us to believe Sheldon is maturing, but then take him all the way down to where it is difficult to sympathize with him any longer because I know now he is capable of being better than that.   I hate the whole Sheldon only has Amy because she is the only one who will put up with him, and that something is weird about Amy because she does....accept she doesn't.   She shoves taffy in his mouth or knocks him out so she doesn't have to.

I fell in love with Amy because I thought she was the exception; his source of confidence and soul companion.   Now, it just seems she is being portrayed as Sheldon's object of love, yes, but more importantly his savior.   Sheldon being "saved" by Amy just doesn't sit well with me.   I'd prefer to see them hanging on and supporting each other sharing the same life jacket with the two of them against the world instead of everyone against Sheldon.

And to the Lennies out there, I do see the parallel of my Shamy complaints to what has been going on with your shipper for a long time now.

[jenafan]

On the Amy "drugging" Sheldon.   We really don't know if she drugged him with medication per say, but she did know how to put a cocktail together that would knock him out for a considerable amount of time.  Maybe they were herbs or something.    Sheldon recognized that it tasted funny but trusted her enough to drink it anyway.    Granted, no harm came to him, but it would have been nice to hear him acknowledge that he knew she was up to something and was willing to go through with it.

[tallin]

24 minutes ago, jenafan said:

I don't think anyone, no matter what their lot in life is deserves to be insulted by their own parents, and for Mary to say what she did in front of Sheldon's significant other was down right rude.     I am very upset with how Sheldon reacted to the whole thing by showing himself to be as "special" as his mother accuses him.   If the writers want me to get on board with Sheldon's growth and show that he is still Sheldon, I'm fine with it except when they take a very intelligent adult man and turn him into a laughing stock in front of the two most important women in his life for the sake of comedy to justify why Mary and Amy treat him the way they do and yet still want me to believe Amy wants to marry into this one day?

Furthermore, Amy is the one who tells others to stop treating Sheldon like a child, but then she turns around and does it herself.   She avoids coming home when he is sick.   She lies about her apartment.   Now she drugs him.    What bothers me, is that people actually thinks its okay to do these things with one's significant other, if they are perceived to be "special."   

It's not Shamy that bothers me.   I hate that TPTB want us to believe how ecstatic Amy is to be with Sheldon, but then throw in just enough by her behavior to make us wonder how true it is.     I hate that they want us to believe Sheldon is maturing, but then take him all the way down to where it is difficult to sympathize with him any longer because I know now he is capable of being better than that.   I hate the whole Sheldon only has Amy because she is the only one who will put up with him, and that something is weird about Amy because she does....accept she doesn't.   She shoves taffy in his mouth or knocks him out so she doesn't have to.

I fell in love with Amy because I thought she was the exception; his source of confidence and soul companion.   Now, it just seems she is being portrayed as Sheldon's object of love, yes, but more importantly his savior.   Sheldon being "saved" by Amy just doesn't sit well with me.   I'd prefer to see them hanging on and supporting each other sharing the same life jacket with the two of them against the world instead of everyone against Sheldon.

And to the Lennies out there, I do see the parallel of my Shamy complaints to what has been going on with your shipper for a long time now.

 

Agreed. Been a sad story with those two lately. You explained why better than I ever could. 

But on a positive note Lenny and Howardette were good, mostly thanks to the acting (writers should really bless their happy star or whatever for all of them, without, the'd long be you know, attached to another object by an inclined plane, wrapped hellically around an axis) 

[wowbagger]

8 hours ago, Chrismo said:

The thing was Sheldon didn't make a production about it. Sheldon, and Amy,  has done experiments without consent of Lenny and that was okay. Or how about when Sheldon committed battery against Amy in the Thanksgiving episode?

Well, that is part of the problem, no? Sheldon didn't make 'a production' of it. At least Lenny have objected to being experimented on. The show gives us to understand that it does not condone the behaviour of the experimenters.

and incidentally, I am actually not a huge fan of the arse slap so you'll get little defence of it from me - even if I privately think that play-'violence' is not really comparable to drugging and kidnapping someone. Which, to be clear, is the behaviour that we were asked to chortle at.

Anyway, like i said i am not a fan of the arse-slap in the context of that episode. the show occasionally exhibits the maturity about sex of a thirteen year old with access to the parental-lock password on the TV. It's fascinated yet repelled by sex. So frequently you get this innuendo and giggling and leering and 'tee hee, spanking!' It's quite tiresome. Not that non-vanilla sex is tiresome or hilarious in and of itself. The show's attitude to sex can be irritating.

 

Edited January 7, 2017 by wowbagger

[serena_1995]

34 minutes ago, jenafan said:

On the Amy "drugging" Sheldon.   We really don't know if she drugged him with medication per say, but she did know how to put a cocktail together that would knock him out for a considerable amount of time.  Maybe they were herbs or something.    Sheldon recognized that it tasted funny but trusted her enough to drink it anyway.    Granted, no harm came to him, but it would have been nice to hear him acknowledge that he knew she was up to something and was willing to go through with it.

 

Sheldon didn't know what was happening to him. He wondered how he got in the car. It was done without his consent. He didn't know it was Amy's weird tasting juice that made him sleep all the way. I don't think he connected the dots, until later when Leonard asked for the recipe.  If it had been me, I would be seriously pissed off. Thank goodness we were spared, the vision of Amy putting Sheldon in a cart and whatever inertia did to him. Maybe i'm exaggerating but that would be like watching a horror movie, lol. 

I'm sure people wouldn't appreciate it if a man  drugged a woman and was dragging her around like a piece of luggage .

Edited January 7, 2017 by serena_1995

[3ku11]

We never saw any drugging. I'm willing to treat this as a silly gag, And throw away line. I laughed. But that's just me. I don't think it was ever suggested. Amy was frequently drugging him. And I don't think it's as serious as date drugging someone. But like I said I just saw it as a cheap gag. If we have no issue with Sheldon underwear. Then we should have no problem with this. I mean shows inconsistent these days as it is. So next episode I'm sure their we'll be something else lol.

[jenafan]

1 hour ago, serena_1995 said:

 

Sheldon didn't know what was happening to him. He wondered how he got in the car. It was done without his consent. He didn't know it was Amy's weird tasting juice that made him sleep all the way. I don't think he connected the dots, until later when Leonard asked for the recipe.  If it had been me, I would be seriously pissed off. Thank goodness we were spared, the vision of Amy putting Sheldon in a cart and whatever inertia did to him. Maybe i'm exaggerating but that would be like watching a horror movie, lol. 

I'm sure people wouldn't appreciate it if a man  drugged a woman and was dragging her around like a piece of luggage .

Agree 1000%. 

Also thanks for clearing up Sheldon's inability to connect the dots.   I had hoped that perhaps he knew something was up and just went along, but alas, it seems this isn't so.

If anything, this proves to me they still have issues to work through before getting engaged.

Edited January 7, 2017 by jenafan

[joyceraye]

  45 minutes ago, jenafan said:

I don't think anyone, no matter what their lot in life is deserves to be insulted by their own parents, and for Mary to say what she did in front of Sheldon's significant other was downright rude.  

We saw how Sheldon was hurt by having the truth pointed out but what Sheldon took as an insult was, on the face of it, deserved. He chose to take his mother's concession as an insult. I'm not saying he was wrong so to do. I was rather breathtaken by his standing up so straight, folding his arms like that and talking so plainly. I admired that. Thirty years ago I'd have been quite  overcome . We may think Mary Cooper's brand of religion  - that thinks God wrote the Bible Himself and takes the Old Testament literally - is comic but what is part of the doctrine of  Christianity in general, and every other mainstream faith on the planet for that matter,is that sexual intercourse ( implied in the term 'living in sin' ) out of wedlock is wrong. Mary for once is not cranky or out of the loop in that view. If it was any other relative than Sheldon she'd be ashamed. By 'truth' I mean Shamy is an exception because there really are what Mary calls 'special circumstances'.

Sheldon has disorders that render him slow to deal with change. He has habits from which he has to be weaned slowly, not only causing him difficulty but also making him difficult. Given, Sheldon was intending to propose last year, or said he was, but seriously ? If he stayed with his old living arrangement when would he ever be ready ? Does anyone who knows him imagine Sheldon could go through a ceremony in front of people, endure speeches and a party,travel to a honeymoon destination, get into a strange bed in a strange room and perform coitus for the first time all on the same day ? Who's kidding ? Then he'd come back to live in a home where he'd never lived before and adjust instantly with no bickering ? Sheldon ?  Sheldon needed to go about things the way he did.  Perhaps still does. This is before one starts thinking of Amy's problems. 'Special circumstances' is absolutely true or else Mary would never get her head around it. 

That Mary chose this very time to mention she'd always thought he'd live alone because his specialness in the demeaning sense of the word would deter women was harsh, yes.  Sheldon had made it clear to his friends, plus anyone in the world able to hear Howardette's wedding on the Google satellite ( Don't know if there was sound ) that alone without needing anyone else was what he regarded as a superior state. Mary must have heard him say this many times. To have come back with, 'That's just as well, Shelley honey, because no woman's gonna put up with ya,' would have been  insulting and cruel. She's saved that one up for a rainy day. She's had years to be grateful to Amy, and to whoever her God is for her, but now she comes out with her snide. She's as good as saying she's holding Sheldon to a lower standard because he's not up to the real thing ( true enough) and in the hearing of the woman who'll stoop to that. If she's felt betrayed in any way she's sure got her own back now. It's hit Sheldon between the eyes that his mother has seen him as the weak and vulnerable one rather than 'special' in the best sense of the word.

The irony is, since she obviously must have last spoken to Mary before Halley was born, when Amy told her they were living together they hadn't at that point lived in sin at all ! I must go back and look at Amy's face when Sheldon says they must tell his mother they have bunk beds. 

1 hour ago, serena_1995 said:

 

Sheldon didn't know what was happening to him. He wondered how he got in the car. It was done without his consent. He didn't know it was Amy's weird tasting juice that made him sleep all the way. I don't think he connected the dots, until later when Leonard asked for the recipe.  If it had been me, I would be seriously pissed off. Thank goodness we were spared, the vision of Amy putting Sheldon in a cart and whatever inertia did to him. Maybe i'm exaggerating but that would be like watching a horror movie, lol. 

I'm sure people wouldn't appreciate it if a man  drugged a woman and was dragging her around like a piece of luggage .

She probably added something alcoholic to fruit juice. We know how Sheldon takes spiked drinks happily if he doesn't know what they really are.

17 minutes ago, joyceraye said:

 

 

17 minutes ago, joyceraye said:

  

 

 

 

Edited January 7, 2017 by joyceraye
Issues with quote function - triplication.

[Tensor]

So, Mary made mean and insulting comments to Sheldon.  What's the big deal?  It's exactly the same thing they have done before with Beverly and Leonard and Debbie and Howard and to a lesser extent Raj and his parents.  

[joyceraye]

29 minutes ago, Tensor said:

So, Mary made mean and insulting comments to Sheldon.  What's the big deal?  It's exactly the same thing they have done before with Beverly and Leonard and Debbie and Howard and to a lesser extent Raj and his parents.  

Yup ! What beats 'Buck up, Sissy Pants' ?

[3ku11]

Yeah Compared to Good Ol Bev. Mary was an angel lol. All she did was tell it like it is. In a indirect way. Just trying to tell Sheldon how luckey he is to have Amy. Because tbf if Raj and Howard never put his data into a dating profile. He would still be alone. So he's fortunate he found Amy.

[Etienne]

So Mary can be rude, insensitive to others feelings, lacking a functioning filter and is convinced that her way of doing things is the correct way.  I wonder if that's a genetic trait that's being passed down?

[jenafan]

2 hours ago, Tensor said:

So, Mary made mean and insulting comments to Sheldon.  What's the big deal?  It's exactly the same thing they have done before with Beverly and Leonard and Debbie and Howard and to a lesser extent Raj and his parents.  

Well, I can't really argue with when you put it that way, can I? 

I just know from experience that it's difficult to believe in yourself when your own parents don't believe in you.   As my focus was on Sheldon, I neglected to see the parallel between Beverly and Leonard, which makes Mary tame in comparison.

To Mary's defense, until Amy came along, Sheldon expressed no interest in ever having a girlfriend, let alone a lover and living with one.   However, observing Sheldon at three years old, Mary could not have known that.   So, even when Sheldon was a toddler, she must have had her doubts about anyone of the opposite sex having any interest in him because of his special circumstances.   

It did seem Amy was proud to be the reason Sheldon is not alone, and she would have preferred being mentioned first on Sheldon's list of people in his life that he finds valuable.  I can see Amy taking the inward attitude of "take that," Mrs. Cooper and figuratively giving her an in your face taunt because she proved her wrong about her son meeting someone who wanted to board his train and ride the sometimes bumpy tracks with him.  However, lets not forget that it was Howard and Raj who planted the Shamy seed.  Without their blackmail, Sheldon could very well have been having sloppy joe alone with his mother and been none-the-wiser regarding the matter, while still bantering about how the world is unfair, and he has to continue putting up living with Leonard and Penny.   With or without Amy, Sheldon having an issue with something is a guarantee.   If I had to make a choice, I prefer the way things did happen.

I did like the way Sheldon stood up for himself, but again, he put the emphasis on his brain smarts rather than social improvements.  His siblings' inability to power a potato clock aside, they have managed to find their own significant others, start families, and live in a social society that Sheldon is still trying to find his place in.   Once again Sheldon thinks he's trying to prove a point of what he could have been; some rebellious teen having given his "flower" away to any girl who came his way.    Unfortunately, his immature actions backfired, and he just reaffirmed the reason his mother believes he's "special" and needs not only firm direction, but leniency on his decisions regarding his relationship with Amy because who else who want to deal with him?

To Amy's credit, she's been there and done that with Sheldon.   She's seen him act crazy stupid, but she understands how Sheldon overreacts.   I really appreciated her trying to encourage Mary to have one of them go talk to Sheldon.   I understood Amy holding his hand when he got his ear pierced, because she did the same thing out of rebellion when they broke up.   Amy does get Sheldon.   Mary does to some extent, but she only knows the son she raised, who could not express himself or his true feelings.   Amy sees Sheldon the man, with a heart, the ability to feel and be hurt, and desire to be loved and give love in return.

So, for all that, I can find it in myself to forgive Amy for the drug juice and going behind Sheldon's back to tell his Mom all.  Just as Sheldon has his flaws, she has her own shortcomings.   Sheldon didn't get an apology, but at least she owned up to not being the perfect mate either.

For Mary, I didn't like her insult, but at least Sheldon was spared the dreaded religious lecture and can move forward in his cohabitation free from guilt of holding back information from his mother.

Edited January 7, 2017 by jenafan

[3ku11]

it's not really an insult though when it's a fact. Mary seemed thrilled Shamy were cohabiting. I don't see an issue here. But msybe I'm not invested enough. 

[JE7]

I think the problem is shock, no one who knows the sweat and patient mother Mary we have seen over the last ten years would expect her to say what she did. It was very OOC for her, i have no problem believing that she may and probably did think that way in the privacy of her mind but to just say it to Sheldon's face is not the Mary Cooper I have come to know.

We can now add her to the list of characters who have acted completely OOC at some point in the show, I think all that's left is for Bev to show up at the door on xmass eve wearing a Santa hat, singing carols and bearing gifts

1 hour ago, 3ku11 said:

it's not really an insult though when it's a fact. Mary seemed thrilled Shamy were cohabiting. I don't see an issue here. But msybe I'm not invested enough. 

And yes it is, we could all agree that Zach is stupid but it would still be insulting to say it to his face.

But then TBTB have done that to

Edited January 7, 2017 by JE7

[joyceraye]

1 hour ago, 3ku11 said:

it's not really an insult though when it's a fact. Mary seemed thrilled Shamy were cohabiting. I don't see an issue here. But msybe I'm not invested enough. 

You're right. I thought she was speaking somewhere between sarcasm and pretence when she said she was thrilled. It reminds me of friends of mine whose daughter's boyfriend thought he'd shocked them by announcing at a family gathering he was going to live with her but they weren't getting married. The mother kept her face straight and said, 'Oh good ! We can go to America instead on that money.'  No way were they letting the creep see they minded at all. I can't think of a word that would cover it. I think that's what Mary was doing.

The parents had their holiday and a couple of years later the young man literally went down on one knee and as we used to say - in earnest years ago but nowadays in jest - 'made an honest woman of her' and they paid for everything themselves.

[JE7]

14 hours ago, kimbee73 said:

So what? Putting drugs in someone's drink is illegal last time I checked. I am sorry but asking someone to get a banana out of a puzzle box is a bit different than giving someone drugs. And I want you to know that I am not saying that experimenting on your friends is nice either just that the experiments are different situation.

And in the baby episode you are absolutely correct....he did not ask for consent but he didn't get his way either. She shot him down every time he tried if I recall.

 

How how about having sex with a woman who is to drunk to remember it? Many people defend Raj for that, just as people condemned Amy for this.

They do that because it happened to a character they like or dislike and that's the bottom line it wasn't bad because it happened it was bad because it happened to Sheldon just as it was OK because it happened to "that tramp penny"

I am just saying that a viewers personal feelings about a character strongly influence whether they find a particular gag funny or outrageous 

And I was struck by the parallels between this discussion and the ones about 4.24 both the anger of some and the dismissive way some others brush-off that anger 

Edited January 7, 2017 by JE7

[3ku11]

40 minutes ago, JE7 said:

I think the problem is shock, no one who knows the sweat and patient mother Mary we have seen over the last ten years would expect her to say what she did. It was very OOC for her, i have no problem believing that she may and probably did think that way in the privacy of her mind but to just say it to Sheldon's face is not the Mary Cooper I have come to know.

We can now add her to the list of characters who have acted completely OOC at some point in the show, I think all that's left is for Bev to show up at the door on xmass eve wearing a Santa hat, singing carols and bearing gifts

And yes it is, we could all agree that Zach is stupid but it would still be insulting to say it to his face.

But then TBTB have done that to

Technically it's not an insult though. Calling someone stupid is. Calling someone an idiot is. If she was like Sheldon you we'll die alone. But she was like "considering your special circumstances". She diddnt hit Sheldon over the head or anything lol. Their was condensention and pretense to her voice. But Sheldon acted surprised. I was like huh? But anyway 

Edited January 7, 2017 by 3ku11

[kimbee73]

How how about having sex with a woman who is to drunk to remember it? Many people defend Raj for that, just as people condemned Amy for this.
They do that because it happened to a character they like or dislike and that's the bottom line it wasn't bad because it happened it was bad because it happened to Sheldon just as it was OK because it happened to "that tramp penny"
I am just saying that a viewers personal feelings about a character strongly influence whether they find a particular gag funny or outrageous 
And I was struck by the parallels between this discussion and the ones about 4.24 both the anger of some and the dismissive way some others brush-off that anger 

You know I never thought about what Raj did in that way. You are definitely right though, people will defend it because of it being Penny. Now that it has been pointed out I must say I do feel differently about that too. That was just as wrong.


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[hokie3457]

19 minutes ago, kimbee73 said:

 

You know I never thought about what Raj did in that way. You are definitely right though, people will defend it because of it being Penny. Now that it has been pointed out I must say I do feel differently about that too. That was just as wrong.


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The differences in the levels of each of their inebriation; the differing ability of each to remember the events. A great concern.

[JE7]

You know I have ceased to be surprised at the depths to which these writers will sink if they think it's funny and in those cases it's usually not

And as back then we had people saying it was OK because you know it's penny and everybody knows she's a tramp and it's no big deal we now have people saying what Amy did was OK because you know it's Sheldon and everybody knows he is a huge pain in the ass and it's no big deal

The parallels are interesting

Edited January 7, 2017 by JE7

[DoctorWhat]

Hi,haven't been here in a while,especially since Sherlock is on but I watched the episode.I didn't find it very funny tbh,I have a problem with Amy handling situations for Sheldon as much as I had with Penny throwing Leonard's stuff away.I just don't realise how a woman's part is supposed to be working like this in a relationship,perhaps it's because I am only 22,but I hate the whole "I'll make you more mature and better,but I'll still act like your parent" attitude we see from the female characters.Now,about Sheldon,I truly admired the way he was straight forward with his mother (although he did hesitate) but the things he did later I didn't find funny at all.The underwear on his face was awkward and the short piercing story was one of the most purposeless sequences I've ever seen.Lenny and Bernadette was so much better and that's a new for me since they usually bore me to the point of skipping their scenes.