[Spoilers] Discussion: Season 10

[Capt. Hilts]

Like "Cheers," and "M*A*S*H," TBBT has remained fresh by the addition of characters and circumstances.  

That's a good thing.

[SRAM]

2 hours ago, joyceraye said:

How are they fixed for affording somebody for Rajesh ? With only two more seasons to go, they need to be ultra-careful introducing an extra permanent character into the mix. A new one who can complete the circle will need time. Raj's new woman - if they're going to end the series in two years they're surely not leaving him lonely -  needs to be someone who can bed into the storyline quickly. Perhaps one of his old girlfriends will become available and like the change in him ? The Indian girl who said she was gay that he was seriously considering finds out she was wrong and reappears ? I still think Emily, because she knows all the others including Cinnamon, would be the most suitable. Raj can have a change of heart towards her now he is getting a more mature view of the world. Her own quirks and kinks might have smoothed out somewhat over the months since we've seen them. Lucy seems somewhat more sure of herself and might work. I don't know about America, but in the UK an Indian bachelor pushing forty is not a creature I have ever encountered and possibly does not even exist.

I was watching some reruns of when Raj first dated Emily and they seemed really good together, it is a shame they had that episode where they got all the girls together to tell Raj how bad a boyfriend he was.  It is like they purposely burned bridges with that episode, making it almost impossible for anyone of the girls to want to come back to him.  If they really want to make something of Raj living with Lenny they should have Penny coach him how to be a better boyfriend, while he is living there.  I could see Leonard, Penny and Raj sitting around talking while Penny explains what he is doing wrong, Leonard finally telling him, 'Listen to her, look at the improvements she made to me, they made it possible for me to find a caring and beautiful woman to love me', while Penny smiles at him.  Maybe then he could talk one of his ex's to take him back or he could find someone new.  

[Chrismo]

38 minutes ago, SRAM said:

I was watching some reruns of when Raj first dated Emily and they seemed really good together, it is a shame they had that episode where they got all the girls together to tell Raj how bad a boyfriend he was.  It is like they purposely burned bridges with that episode, making it almost impossible for anyone of the girls to want to come back to him.  If they really want to make something of Raj living with Lenny they should have Penny coach him how to be a better boyfriend, while he is living there.  I could see Leonard, Penny and Raj sitting around talking while Penny explains what he is doing wrong, Leonard finally telling him, 'Listen to her, look at the improvements she made to me, they made it possible for me to find a caring and beautiful woman to love me', while Penny smiles at him.  Maybe then he could talk one of his ex's to take him back or he could find someone new.  

It might be a time to bring back Alex. Has her doctorate by now. An astrophysicist like Raj. Would bring an interesting conflict to the show.

[wowbagger]

18 hours ago, JohnPhD said:

I don't know why Bernadette and Amy are treated as a package. They didn't come in together and have no special connection.

I don't see how it would be possible to write out Bernadette without without also losing Howard. In fact Old Howard was pretty well done when they brought in Bernadette to save the character, who has been great ever since.

Amy, on the other hand, could easily and cleanly (and IMO advantageously) be written out. Have Sheldon rediscover his emotional self-sufficiency and that his friends are all he needs. No-one else would miss her. Maybe bring back Emily, not necessarilly as Raj's gf but as another friend for Penny and Bernadette. Or have Raj join their girls' nights as an honorary girl.

theoretically, you COULD lose Bernie without losing new improved Howard. Why would divorce or even widowerhood automatically reverse seasons of development? Simon Helberg actually did a good job of suggesting that the loving husband and father we see now always existed in potentia beneath the Pick Up Artist Skeeve of yore.

similarly, I am really puzzled at the notion that it is That Succubus Amy who has wrought such a disastrous change in Steely Olympian Sheldon. This mythical robotic Sheldon whom you (impersonal 'you') could always enjoy in the show in your (impersonal 'your') mind. And who bears scant resemblance to the emotional, inappropriately-open, blunt creature on, you know, the actual screen. It's not Amy who's changed the guy. It is not the necessity of sustaining a relationship that has made him - what? - not the robot he never actually was? It's not Sheldon's HEART that has changed. It is Sheldon's vocabulary that has been sanded off, perhaps, and the greater quotient of dickishness in his behaviour, maybe. Those are functions of increased laziness in the writing, maybe. The almost inevitable wear and tear and Flanderisation that you (impersonal 'you') observe in long-running sitcoms.

and suppose there has been a change. Suppose Sheldon really is more emotional now. Are you arguing that that is because he is in a relationship? Or is it rather that he is in a relationship because the writers fancied making him more emotional? In other words, what if you (impersonal 'you') are mistaking correlation for causation? What if Amy were to be wiped off the show and Sheldon were to remain 'emotional'? You know, the way he was all through that breakup? I suspect that you (personal 'you') would be comforted by the reflection that you (personal 'you') need no longer look on a screen despoiled by Amy. And I would be happy for you (personal 'you') in that case.

but shall we stop pretending that one character is the sole lynchpin of another's?

[SRAM]

8 minutes ago, Chrismo said:

It might be a time to bring back Alex. Has her doctorate by now. An astrophysicist like Raj. Would bring an interesting conflict to the show.

Penny 'hates that bitch', that could really be funny if they could write it.  Hell, Lenny moved into 4A the guy who tried to do Penny (Raj), why can't they bring in the girl that tried to do Leonard (Alex), after all fair-is-fair.

[hokie3457]

14 minutes ago, wowbagger said:

theoretically, you COULD lose Bernie without losing new improved Howard. Why would divorce or even widowerhood automatically reverse seasons of development? Simon Helberg actually did a good job of suggesting that the loving husband and father we see now always existed in potentia beneath the Pick Up Artist Skeeve of yore.

similarly, I am really puzzled at the notion that it is That Succubus Amy who has wrought such a disastrous change in Steely Olympian Sheldon. This mythical robotic Sheldon whom you (impersonal 'you') could always enjoy in the show in your (impersonal 'your') mind. And who bears scant resemblance to the emotional, inappropriately-open, blunt creature on, you know, the actual screen. It's not Amy who's changed the guy. It is not the necessity of sustaining a relationship that has made him - what? - not the robot he never actually was? It's not Sheldon's HEART that has changed. It is Sheldon's vocabulary that has been sanded off, perhaps, and the greater quotient of dickishness in his behaviour, maybe. Those are functions of increased laziness in the writing, maybe. The almost inevitable wear and tear and Flanderisation that you (impersonal 'you') observe in long-running sitcoms.

and suppose there has been a change. Suppose Sheldon really is more emotional now. Are you arguing that that is because he is in a relationship? Or is it rather that he is in a relationship because the writers fancied making him more emotional? In other words, what if you (impersonal 'you') are mistaking correlation for causation? What if Amy were to be wiped off the show and Sheldon were to remain 'emotional'? You know, the way he was all through that breakup? I suspect that you (personal 'you') would be comforted by the reflection that you (personal 'you') need no longer look on a screen despoiled by Amy. And I would be happy for you (personal 'you') in that case.

but shall we stop pretending that one character is the sole lynchpin of another's?

Ha!  This may seem a bit impersonal, but I personally need a chart to follow this.....(great post as always wow-b!)

You touch on something here in passing that may be more of a causation of disenchantment for many of us: "laziness in the writing".  I think that coupled with the need to fit numerous storylines in the scant 20/18 minutes we have of airtime goes a long way in the state of some of the fandom's malaise....

[spidergirl]

It is always possible to the writers to replace characters or even remove them from the show, for worst it sounds to the fans. However, would most of viewers get used to a reality, even it being well explained with reasonable facts, without Amy for Sheldon and wihtout Bernie to Howard? For some it could. For me it would be a deep cut that I dont know if I would recover enoughly to follow their lives without their girls. For much reasonable was the reason for they dissapear from Sheldon and Howard's lives.

[veejay]

55 minutes ago, hokie3457 said:

Ha!  This may seem a bit impersonal, but I personally need a chart to follow this.....(great post as always wow-b!)

You touch on something here in passing that may be more of a causation of disenchantment for many of us: "laziness in the writing".  I think that coupled with the need to fit numerous storylines in the scant 20/18 minutes we have of airtime goes a long way in the state of some of the fandom's malaise....

Short scenes involving everyone in every episode is the problem. Especially when they have half the cast separated from each other for most/all of the episode. That means it's essentially 2 shows within 1, and with 18 minute episodes, you are essentially looking at 2 separate 9 minute skits. Hard to really push much plot development there.
I think that the show has gotten very repetitive. I think the writers wrote themselves into a corner by putting all of the characters in long-term relationships (except for Raj). They should have kept one central couple at a time while the other characters were single and/or having other issues. Sheldon and Amy may be now the favorite couple of the writers/viewers, but they should have kept them broken up for longer than they did (no offence to Shamy-shippers intended). Keeping them separated would have opened up the possibility for different storyline ideas for the two (other than the dumb relationship drama that we see with Lenny).

Edited March 21, 2017 by veejay
some clarification was needed, :-)

[djsurrey]

4 hours ago, joyceraye said:

How are they fixed for affording somebody for Rajesh ? With only two more seasons to go, they need to be ultra-careful introducing an extra permanent character into the mix. A new one who can complete the circle will need time. Raj's new woman - if they're going to end the series in two years they're surely not leaving him lonely -  needs to be someone who can bed into the storyline quickly. Perhaps one of his old girlfriends ...

Like Penny? Then they can leave Leonard lonely instead. Leonard has the worst luck of anyone.

What was this all about?

...and the Mandy kiss, and the years of Penny not wanting to commit. The non engagement and crappy wedding. There is also the time Raj moved in with Howard and Bernadette and it got them fighting every time he was thoughtful. The writing is kind of on the wall.

Edited March 21, 2017 by djsurrey

[veejay]

17 minutes ago, djsurrey said:

Like Penny? Then they can leave Leonard lonely instead. Leonard has the worst luck of anyone.

What was this all about?

...........

...and the Mandy kiss, and the years of Penny not wanting to commit. The non engagement and crappy wedding. There is also the time Raj moved in with Howard and Bernadette and it got them fighting every time he was thoughtful. The writing is kind of on the wall.

[shamyarmy2016]

21 hours ago, JohnPhD said:

Amy, on the other hand, could easily and cleanly (and IMO advantageously) be written out. Have Sheldon rediscover his emotional self-sufficiency and that his friends are all he needs. No-one else would miss her. Maybe bring back Emily, not necessarilly as Raj's gf but as another friend for Penny and Bernadette. Or have Raj join their girls' nights as an honorary girl.

what are you talking about everyone would miss amy without amy there is no shamy and sheldon would be a jerk still if it was not for her and sheldon became better becuase amy changed him and the show i would miss her mayim and jim  are  the reason i watch the show 

[Tonstar17]

Like Penny? Then they can leave Leonard lonely instead. Leonard has the worst luck of anyone.
What was this all about?

...and the Mandy kiss, and the years of Penny not wanting to commit. The non engagement and crappy wedding. There is also the time Raj moved in with Howard and Bernadette and it got them fighting every time he was thoughtful. The writing is kind of on the wall.

Sadly, Tbh. I’m really worried about lenny and where the writers are going with them. Every single episode in the 2nd half of this season, they had them fighting in some capacity. On and off screen with no resolution, surely this is leading somewhere. If tptb are not willing for them to talk through why they are fighting so much or the cause, then I can't see much hope for them except for something bad to happen, and now Raj in the mix to fuel the fire and create more drama. I think this is leading somewhere and it's all going to explode in the season finale. Lenny will be the major cliffhanger and not in a good way I fear. I hope I'm wrong and it's all in my head. When you have time on your hands, the mind wonders.

Sent from my SM-G935F using Tapatalk

[Chrismo]

2 hours ago, SRAM said:

Penny 'hates that bitch', that could really be funny if they could write it.  Hell, Lenny moved into 4A the guy who tried to do Penny (Raj), why can't they bring in the girl that tried to do Leonard (Alex), after all fair-is-fair.

One of the reasons Alex liked Leonard is of Raj's  mutism. Ale/Raj as a couple really isn't a stretch and is a character people know.

[April]

2 hours ago, wowbagger said:

similarly, I am really puzzled at the notion that it is That Succubus Amy who has wrought such a disastrous change in Steely Olympian Sheldon. This mythical robotic Sheldon whom you (impersonal 'you') could always enjoy in the show in your (impersonal 'your') mind. And who bears scant resemblance to the emotional, inappropriately-open, blunt creature on, you know, the actual screen. It's not Amy who's changed the guy. It is not the necessity of sustaining a relationship that has made him - what? - not the robot he never actually was? It's not Sheldon's HEART that has changed. It is Sheldon's vocabulary that has been sanded off, perhaps, and the greater quotient of dickishness in his behaviour, maybe. Those are functions of increased laziness in the writing, maybe. The almost inevitable wear and tear and Flanderisation that you (impersonal 'you') observe in long-running sitcoms.

and suppose there has been a change. Suppose Sheldon really is more emotional now. Are you arguing that that is because he is in a relationship? Or is it rather that he is in a relationship because the writers fancied making him more emotional? In other words, what if you (impersonal 'you') are mistaking correlation for causation? What if Amy were to be wiped off the show and Sheldon were to remain 'emotional'? You know, the way he was all through that breakup? I suspect that you (personal 'you') would be comforted by the reflection that you (personal 'you') need no longer look on a screen despoiled by Amy. And I would be happy for you (personal 'you') in that case.

but shall we stop pretending that one character is the sole lynchpin of another's?

Well, personally I find the usual assertion that whatever writing you (impersonal 'you') don't like to be "lazy" to be, dare I say it, lazy in itself. It's become a bit of a quick and predictable non-sequitur. But I do agree with the general point of robotic Sheldon of yore being a mythical creature living in the heads of the impersonal audience. What is different are the kinds of emotions he's having now and how he's dealing with them. I feel reminded of the tiresome gendered notion that men suppressing their emotions means that they don't feel any as opposed to the weak women folk who're more emotive in general. Related to that idea is also what counts as an emotion cause men angrily yelling about some issue is rarely seen as overly emotional while women rationally arguing about the same issue are often labelled as being hysterical. Point being there's a gendered perception in society of what is and isn't "emotional behaviour" and a guy having angry temper tantrums and otherwise suppressing his emotions will still be seen as unemotional, while a guy who's expressing love and all those other icky female feelings is seen as lesser in a way. And I feel that this is the root cause for all that robotic Sheldon nostalgia.

Not saying that they feminised Sheldon or whatever but there is a distinctive shift from "Sheldon suppresses his emotions and is in deep denial" to "Sheldon embraces his emotions and deals with them in a more healthy way" and Amy is undoubtedly the narrative catalyst for that and thus gets the blame because girls have cooties or something. But as you already implied: If it weren't Amy the writers would have probably found something else to bring on this development because this journey for Sheldon seems to be something they're really interested in. If Amy were to vanish over the summer we would deal with a heartbroken and thus very emotional Sheldon again cause there's no turning back from that now because the writers are in control of the story and not actually hold hostage by their fictional creation.

[Capt. Hilts]

18 minutes ago, April said:

Not saying that they feminised Sheldon or whatever but there is a distinctive shift from "Sheldon suppresses his emotions and is in deep denial" to "Sheldon embraces his emotions and deals with them in a more healthy way" and Amy is undoubtedly the narrative catalyst for that and thus gets the blame because girls have cooties or something. But as you already implied: If it weren't Amy the writers would have probably found something else to bring on this development because this journey for Sheldon seems to be something they're really interested in. If Amy were to vanish over the summer we would deal with a heartbroken and thus very emotional Sheldon again cause there's no turning back from that now because the writers are in control of the story and not actually hold hostage by their fictional creation.

Three years with Penny ignoring his boundaries started the process. 

Amy didn't get a 'Season 1' version of Sheldon when she entered the picture.

[April]

4 minutes ago, Capt. Hilts said:

Three years with Penny ignoring his boundaries started the process. 

Amy didn't get a 'Season 1' version of Sheldon when she entered the picture.

Yeah, exactly. If Amy hadn't entered the picture then the writers would have just continued bringing the change by other means, most likely with his friends playing an even bigger role than they already do compensating the lack of a love interest. But I don't see a scenario where the writers would have kept Sheldon in some sort of character stasis for years.

[veejay]

57 minutes ago, Tonstar17 said:

Sadly, Tbh. I’m really worried about lenny and where the writers are going with them. Every single episode in the 2nd half of this season, they had them fighting in some capacity. On and off screen with no resolution, surely this is leading somewhere. If tptb are not willing for them to talk through why they are fighting so much or the cause, then I can't see much hope for them except for something bad to happen, and now Raj in the mix to fuel the fire and create more drama. I think this is leading somewhere and it's all going to explode in the season finale. Lenny will be the major cliffhanger and not in a good way I fear. I hope I'm wrong and it's all in my head. When you have time on your hands, the mind wonders.

I agree with most of your opinion, but I’m struggling about the term "fighting" (well, english is not my native language as you know). I observe their behavior rather as a kind of constant "bickering" and after the announced renewal of the series, my expectations are a lot more confidential than weeks ago (yes, I’m desperate but illusional as a tired fan-atic always has to be, damn).

(Penny, shut up) 

[joyceraye]

4 hours ago, Chrismo said:

It might be a time to bring back Alex. Has her doctorate by now. An astrophysicist like Raj. Would bring an interesting conflict to the show.

Yes she'd be a fit, although I also had her in mind for big Dave.

[Capt. Hilts]

4 hours ago, Chrismo said:

It might be a time to bring back Alex. Has her doctorate by now. An astrophysicist like Raj. Would bring an interesting conflict to the show.

Agreed. I don't like the idea of introducing new characters.  That goes for Sheldon's brother, Amy's family, etc.

They've got plenty of familiar characters to work with.  I, for one, would like to see more of Raj's parents.  I thought they were great.

[Tensor]

1 hour ago, shamyarmy2016 said:

what are you talking about everyone would miss amy without amy there is no shamy and sheldon would be a jerk still if it was not for her and sheldon became better becuase amy changed him and the show i would miss her mayim and jim  are  the reason i watch the show 

Not everyone would miss Amy, so please don't speak for everyone.  I see it as Sheldon is more of a jerk, with Amy.   With Amy, Sheldon has become more aware, which makes his formerly innocent remarks, into more of one of Malice.  Jim and Mayim were not the reason I used to watch the show, so losing Amy wouldn't have been a major problem with me.   

[Stephen Hawking]

22 hours ago, 3ku11 said:

Bernadette is married to one of the main characters.

Howard isn't a main character.

22 hours ago, 3ku11 said:

I've seen Amy evolve into this great character. Initially that was not the case though. I found her unlikable. 

I've always liked Amy.

20 hours ago, BigBang15 said:

or Amy or Bernadette can be walking down the street and a piano falls on them from the third floor of a building.

Substitute a helicopter and you have a scene from ER.

18 hours ago, wonder63 said:

To go back to the era of season 1 and 2, I think I will drop this show.

Me too.

I'd just re-watch the currently existing seasons.

Edited March 21, 2017 by Stephen Hawking

[Tonstar17]

I agree with most of your opinion, but I’m struggling about the term "fighting" (well, english is not my native language as you know). I observe their behavior rather as a kind of constant "bickering" and after the announced renewal of the series, my expectations are a lot more confidential than weeks ago (yes, I’m desperate but illusional as a tired fan-atic always has to be, damn).

(Penny, shut up) 

Fighting, arguments, disagreement, snarkiness that is mean spirited. Whatever we call it is kinda means the same thing. It's all stem from lack of communication and respect for each other. I wish I could be optimistic but even with the renewal I still do not see light at the end of the tunnel. I have been waiting for 3 years and every season. Disappointment. Once bitten twice shy.

Sent from my SM-G935F using Tapatalk

[Stephen Hawking]

10 hours ago, 3ku11 said:

Would you and a lot of members found this forum without a change in format?

I doubt I'd be here.

I stumbled upon the scene in Amy's apartment, from Agreement Dissection, on Youtube, and went straight out and bought the box set.

[joyceraye]

44 minutes ago, veejay said:

I agree with most of your opinion, but I’m struggling about the term "fighting" (well, english is not my native language as you know). I observe their behavior rather as a kind of constant "bickering" and after the announced renewal of the series, my expectations are a lot more confidential than weeks ago (yes, I’m desperate but illusional as a tired fan-atic always has to be, damn).

(Penny, shut up) 

I see the language problem.  'Fighting' seems to be American for a range of interactions from mild bickering to serious quarrelling. In English ( as it's spoken in England ) 'fighting' involves punching, slapping, hair-pulling, kicking - in other words physically assaulting each other. None of the couples have ever had a fight in the sense of the word you'd probably find in an English dictionary. Sheldon once said, 'Amy had  fight, I was perfectly reasonable,'  when all Amy had done was to get up and leave the table. She'd said she was going to 'wash up' which she wouldn't have been doing really since she didn't work in the kitchen. ( She was going to wash her hands, not the used crockery. )

A lot of English words mean something different in American - including the word 'English' LOL. For a laugh look up the word 'guy' in both languages. (English ones are made of  old clothes stuffed with paper or straw and we burn them. ) The different meanings of 'mean', 'mad', 'prom' and 'braces' on two sides of the Atlantic might be fun to  check too.  

Edited March 21, 2017 by joyceraye
remembered an example from an earlier season

[Stephen Hawking]

7 hours ago, joyceraye said:

if they're going to end the series in two years they're surely not leaving him lonely

They did it in friends, and in Frasier.