[Spoilers] Discussion: Season 10

[April]

1 hour ago, Tensor said:

Sheldon hasn't been clueless since season 6, episode 8.  Anyone that can refer to oral sex, as a chicken pecking for corn, while making accurate movement of their head to mimic the action of oral sex, is not clueless.   

Yes and no.

You know I'm also in the camp that doesn't see Sheldon as clueless as many other people make him out to be. There's a certain infantilisation coming from parts of the audience (distinctive from what the show is doing) that I find varying degrees of irrational and sometimes downright gross, depending on the comments. He is a grown man in his 30s, y'all can treat him as such.

That said though it is established that Sheldon has cognitive issues with the "theory of mind" and thus has problems recognising when other people use sarcasm or make innuendos or whatever. So he's clueless not in the sense that he himself isn't capable of thinking or saying something along those lines but in the sense that he's isn't able to put himself in the other person's mind in that moment and misinterprets what they're saying. He's clueless about what's going on in other people's minds if you will. And it's not something that he can fix in short time. He's trying, sure, and he's getting better. But on the long run he'll probably always have trouble with that kind of thing. That's not malice, that's just how his brain is wired.

And don't get me wrong, I don't think that this excuses when he's genuinely a jerk. It's the reason why I'm not a fan whenever someone is coddling him like a kid and just roll over to make him do whatever he wants. That kind of stuff isn't helping him and will only make you miserable in the process - see Leonard suffering as his room mate for over a decade for no reason, for example.

[Jonny]

Going back to this discussion about Raj and his possible endgame for him that @joyceraye raised, I think it's clear they either a) have something planned for Raj a point they perhaps want to get him to (god only knows why they waited 10 seasons to finally change him) or b- he's going to try and change but perhaps ultimately fail, Raj will be Raj (but that would go against a lot of the themes of the show people changing, growing once they start to try to etc).

I don't foresee them bringing back one of his ex-girlfriends as they seem to have moved on and I am not sure a changing in Raj's character by taking on board what they told him will win them back. Too much baggage with them you would think.

My prediction right now assuming they are invested in having a life transformation story would be that over these next two seasons you do see him change first financially/working on his spoiled financial status then working on how he treats/respects women. He will probably still struggle to find that special person or the 'one', but perhaps towards the end of Season 12 he finds that person (that would drag out the story, perhaps allow them to do a low cost casting of an actress). Then as I have always envisioned they would do for each character have a flash forward in time scene where you see a happy Raj settled down perhaps with children with that woman.

Of course if Raj can't be changed and that's the story they want to go with it then the ending could be anything. Maybe he lives the bachelor life with the occasional love interest over the years which may or may not make him happy, maybe he ends up going the arranged married route which could bring him happiness or perhaps lock him into a loveless marriage, perhaps he does end up with Howard in like 30 years from now lol. I don't think the writers will want to end each characters story on a sad note.

What are your predictions for Raj by the end of the show?

Edited March 22, 2017 by Jonny

[Stephen Hawking]

3 minutes ago, Jonny said:

He will probably still struggle to find that special person or the 'one', but perhaps towards the end of Season 12 he finds that person

I'd like to see him end up with Issabella.

She's so down to earth.

Maybe that's why he's learning how to live without his parent's money.

[luminous]

9 minutes ago, Jonny said:

What are your predictions for Raj by the end of the show?

Well, to be honest, before I start to think about Raj and his further development, I want him first of all out of 4A as soon as possible.

[JohnPhD]

7 hours ago, Chrismo said:

The original format wouldn't of lasted ten seasons. Saying that Season 4 wasn't the best IMO. While Lenny needed to break up butch Amy and feminine Sheldon didn't work for me. Season 5 was a little better. Lenny was back together, Howdette wedding planning was going on, and Shamy were starting to look like a couple. Season 6 was probably the best of all seasons. Something for everyone. After that the show quality has started to diminish to what we have now.

As to the Amy and Bernadette need. I think Bernadette you probably  need for the storyline. Though you could work around it. Amy you do not need. I'm not sure a Shamy engagement or wedding is really necessary. Wasn't the biggest thing people needed to see was Shamy coitus?

As stated many times on this forum. The Bernadette and espicially Amy addition was for female viewership. It turned the show into a romance/comedy show. What would have more interesting to me if TPTB back at the beginning of season 4 had the guts to make Sheldon a gay character. Would the ratings been as high? The show ratings itself went up when season 1-4 repeats went on TBS. I don't think the immediate appearance of Bernadette and Amy caused a ratings increase.

I believe your first sentence is correct. But to me adding Shamy to prolong the series' life has meant spinning it out by diluting the quality. It's equivalent to saying "we wouldn't have got 100 pints of beer out of this 72-pint cask if we hadn't topped it up with water halfway through". I'm only referring to Shamy: Bernadette has enriched the show IMO.

I think it would have been better to have no Shamy, finish the series in 6 or 7 seasons, and let the stars do other projects. I always thought KC should be making films like those Goldie Hawn did at that age, but I guess it's too late now.

Among the many things in the world I don't understand is how Amy appeals to female viewership. She often seems to me like a hostile parody of a woman. Amy could equally well be played by a male actor, and often reminds me of those female impersonators we happily don't see so much of these days. The parody of feminity was supposed to be all good fun but there was often an undertone of real contempt.

[Stephen Hawking]

7 minutes ago, JohnPhD said:

Among the many things in the world I don't understand is how Amy appeals to female viewership.

Maybe because she's funny.

TBBT is a comedy.

[Jonny]

27 minutes ago, Stephen Hawking said:

I'd like to see him end up with Issabella.

She's so down to earth.

Maybe that's why he's learning how to live without his parent's money.

I thought it was interesting when they introduced her in that episode as she was very different from any of the types he has been with before (background, an older woman, single mother). But I know people on here and on social media didn't really take to her, perhaps she was so different that it was difficult to process or see her being with Raj with the type of person he is? But also I know there was some questions about their chemistry but that was just one episode, however maybe they were right and the writers noticed that as well?

I would be very surprised if she comes back, but I would have been interested to see where it might have gone had they explored it.

[April]

46 minutes ago, Jonny said:

Going back to this discussion about Raj and his possible endgame for him that @joyceraye raised, I think it's clear they either a) have something planned for Raj a point they perhaps want to get him to (god only knows why they waited 10 seasons to finally change him) or b- he's going to try and change but perhaps ultimately fail, Raj will be Raj (but that would go against a lot of the themes of the show people changing, growing once they start to try to etc).

I don't foresee them bringing back one of his ex-girlfriends as they seem to have moved on and I am not sure a changing in Raj's character by taking on board what they told him will win them back. Too much baggage with them you would think.

My prediction right now assuming they are invested in having a life transformation story would be that over these next two seasons you do see him change first financially/working on his spoiled financial status then working on how he treats/respects women. He will probably still struggle to find that special person or the 'one', but perhaps towards the end of Season 12 he finds that person (that would drag out the story, perhaps allow them to do a low cost casting of an actress). Then as I have always envisioned they would do for each character have a flash forward in time scene where you see a happy Raj settled down perhaps with children with that woman.

Of course if Raj can't be changed and that's the story they want to go with it then the ending could be anything. Maybe he lives the bachelor life with the occasional love interest over the years which may or may not make him happy, maybe he ends up going the arranged married route which could bring him happiness or perhaps lock him into a loveless marriage, perhaps he does end up with Howard in like 30 years from now lol. I don't think the writers will want to end each characters story on a sad note.

What are your predictions for Raj by the end of the show?

Like you I also don't see any of his exes coming back - that chapter was closed with the episode where he had all of those girls there. To steal from Howard: "The field was here and it said no." Equally, I have not much hope for Issabella even though she wasn't part of that meeting. But if they really wanted to do something with her they already had plenty of chances and didn't use them - so it seems like there's not much interest on the writers' part here.

Anyway, with the current situation they're fixing his financial situation first and I hope that also causes Raj to transform into a much less spoiled grown up. Fingers crossed, and all that. From then on I would love for S11 to also have him mature in his approach to relationships cause with him it's always been this weird instant kitschy marriage daydreams whenever he meets someone he finds attractive and evidently that didn't work out so well. So if he gets another love story I would prefer a kind of "find love in unexpected places" thing - someone who he might not instantly be attracted to but who challenges his shallow approach to love and relationships so that he does eventually fall in love with them. It's a bit tough to do with Raj having so little screen time but not impossible.

36 minutes ago, luminous said:

Well, to be honest, before I start to think about Raj and his further development, I want him first of all out of 4A as soon as possible.

My friend, I fear one will be linked to the other in that you won't get rid of Raj until he gets some development.

[spidergirl]

1 hour ago, Jonny said:

Going back to this discussion about Raj and his possible endgame for him that @joyceraye raised, I think it's clear they either a) have something planned for Raj a point they perhaps want to get him to (god only knows why they waited 10 seasons to finally change him) or b- he's going to try and change but perhaps ultimately fail, Raj will be Raj (but that would go against a lot of the themes of the show people changing, growing once they start to try to etc).

I don't foresee them bringing back one of his ex-girlfriends as they seem to have moved on and I am not sure a changing in Raj's character by taking on board what they told him will win them back. Too much baggage with them you would think.

My prediction right now assuming they are invested in having a life transformation story would be that over these next two seasons you do see him change first financially/working on his spoiled financial status then working on how he treats/respects women. He will probably still struggle to find that special person or the 'one', but perhaps towards the end of Season 12 he finds that person (that would drag out the story, perhaps allow them to do a low cost casting of an actress). Then as I have always envisioned they would do for each character have a flash forward in time scene where you see a happy Raj settled down perhaps with children with that woman.

Of course if Raj can't be changed and that's the story they want to go with it then the ending could be anything. Maybe he lives the bachelor life with the occasional love interest over the years which may or may not make him happy, maybe he ends up going the arranged married route which could bring him happiness or perhaps lock him into a loveless marriage, perhaps he does end up with Howard in like 30 years from now lol. I don't think the writers will want to end each characters story on a sad note.

What are your predictions for Raj by the end of the show?

Predictions tbh is a hard concept in tbbt land as writers love to drag out some things , love to twist completely others. That's why I always do carefully about what I predict to the show. And that's why I have been learning lately to keep my expectations low about lots of things I would like to see characters doing.

Raj is a complete maze of options imo. I believe writers are not very sure about what they would do with him at moment. If his moving into 4 A could be sucessfull in therms of audience, I can see they develop a plotline to Raj that include he maturing as he is becoming more finatial independent but that process could take  at least one season he being in 4A , as writers love to drag out some things...

Will Raj find a SO? Hum, dont know...At the moment he is not ready to be in a relationship but some people just need to be in a relationship, even it is not what is making them happy at moment, so everything is possible. IMO, Raj might find someone by the last season of the show. If writers were clever, they would develop his characterization nicely before he could be again in a relationship. For he could be at least once happy with someone and made that someone happy too.

Edited March 22, 2017 by spidergirl

[Cloud Strife]

4 hours ago, Tensor said:

In all their disagreements in season six, at some point, they show them talking about it.  

Wrong. They didn't talk about anything in 6.06 and 6.15. The episodes ended unresolved.

4 hours ago, Tensor said:

6.01:   They have an entire plot to themselves, with a minor incursion by Raj.  Over 8 minutes of their own.

Which brought up the worst between them. I personally don't like the episode all that much because there's lots of tension. Nothing is resolved.

5 hours ago, Tensor said:

10.01:  They have the wedding, (all of the under three minutes of it)  but their entire alone time, on screen, was in a discussion with Sheldon.

An absolutely beautiful wedding with their parents as guests. The only reason why their parents were there is because of the wedding, that's why I believe the entire episode is dedicated to them. I don't care about screen time.

5 hours ago, Tensor said:

6.02:  Penny is unsure of the relationship, and it's true Sheldon gets involved.  But they also have their own scene with no one else.

But there's the "not talking about things" and the breakup was only prevented with sex. If that episode aired today, everyone would flip out.

5 hours ago, Tensor said:

6.04    No interaction of just Lenny.  Penny and Amy beating Leonard and Sheldon in a variety of games.

10.04  They finally get their own place when Sheldon moves to 4B with Amy.    However, a total of less than 2 minutes of their being alone.  No real discussion, just clips of them dance or after Leonard hurts himself.

Again, you're talking negatively about the season ten episode while the season six episode should be essentially worse in your book. If the season six episode aired today, you'd ask why Lenny can't spend time alone together and why they have to spend time with Shamy instead.

5 hours ago, Tensor said:

6.06      They have a major fight, Leonard's in the wrong and Penny lies to him about who writes her paper, but it evidently get's the idea across to Leonard that she doesn't want his help.

Season six  4        Season   ten  2     Although Penny goes back to school, they fight because of Leonard trying to push her, even after she said she didn't want his help.   Season 10 they had scenes together, but the continued "he wore her down" and treating her like a trophy, took away from it.  But in the end, I gave it to season 10, as they are mostly cute. 

Again, there's lying, there's fighting, the episode ends unresolved and it doesn't bother you because it gets an idea across? A bit of a double standard. Also Leonard didn't try to push her. He went behind her back and read/rewrote her paper and she didn't like that he had so little faith in her.

5 hours ago, Tensor said:

6.07     No interaction between them at all.

10.07   They have a couple of cute scene.  Penny hiding his figurines, his hiding some of her stuff at the end.  

But season 10 gets it, simply because it's the only time we've scene their redecorated bedroom.  

You're barely willing to put "a couple cute scenes" over "no interaction between them at all"? I don't get it. Why didn't you mention the mutual "I love you"? You made sure to mention it in 6.13, why not here?

5 hours ago, Tensor said:

6.12  Penny, for the first time,  becomes unsure of the relationship.  Also, the first time Leonard takes the lead for sex.

10.12   Talk about Lenny fighting over a TV show, and scenes showing them unhappy with each other, and not talking about it.

I liked both episodes equally. Episode 10.12 doesn't neccessarily show them "unhappy" together (they're fine in the present). Maybe a bit peeved, but not unhappy. I'm gonna tell you that I laughed a lot more about 10.12 than 6.12 and that's what I'm looking for in a comedy series.

5 hours ago, Tensor said:

6.13    Minor scene at the beginning, with Leonard saying he loves her.  Although he shows her off as a trophy.

10.13  Penny claims Leonard isn't trying in the relationship, they have a disagreement, they end up with the totally OOC Relationship agreement.  

So, they had a disagreement, found a solution that works in their favor while being completely content at the end and you're putting the "showing her off as a trophy" above that?  Whether or not the relationship agreement is out of character for them is debatable, but it's a solution that made them happy.

5 hours ago, Tensor said:

6.14   Minor scene with them eating together, with Sheldon.

10.14  Leonard and Penny fight, when Penny doesn't tell Leonard she invited her brother to stay with them.  they make up, off screen, although Penny lies about why her brother can't come.

Again, double standard. Them eating with Sheldon doesn't bother you in season six, while it would clearly bother you now. Penny didn't lie about the reason why her brother can't come. She was about to tell her father the truth (Leonard doesn't want Randall to move in). If anyone lied, it was Leonard who didn't tell her he's not okay with it.

5 hours ago, Tensor said:

6.16    Penny tries to do something romantic for Leonard, and finds out she's been doing it all along, simply because she has many keepsakes of things Leonard's done for her.

Wrong plot, but it doesn't matter.

5 hours ago, Tensor said:

6.17    Penny acts, Leonard comments how good she is.   

Which makes for about ten seconds of the entire episode, maybe less. The screentime, again, doesn't seem to bother you all that much.

5 hours ago, Tensor said:

10.18  Penny and Leonard allow Raj to move in with them

Season  six    12       Season ten    5     Raj moving in with them is not a plus.  

I disagree. I think the fact that they're secure and mature enough to allow Raj to move in is a plus. Also they kept showing the differences between all the couples in this episode and Lenny truly stood out to me because they were generally much nicer, more mature and loving.

I refuse to talk about episode 19 because I want to see it first.

 

 

8 hours ago, Carlos said:

Also, when in the last 4 seasons have you seen Penny be as loving towards Leonard as in The Holographic Excitation?

Episode 8.22. And that's just off the top of my head.

 

8 hours ago, Carlos said:

Do you remember also that during season 6 Penny said "I love you" to Leonard for the first time? Was there anything as special in the seasons that followed? I don't think so. So how you see S7-10 as similar to S6 is beyond me.

The box of mementos, the engagement, the two (!) weddings. I could go on.

[Capt. Hilts]

7 hours ago, Carlos said:

No he is not, actually.

Taking Amy seriously about how hot his "teen titans" underwear is, is one example.  She's being sarcastic and his response is "they probably shouldn't sell them to kids."  How about mentioning in front of Leonard's mother how his mother and Leonard's dad had turned off their cellular phones?  In the latter case he had no motive to make matters worse, but did.  He did not take the right social cues from Leonard.  How about insisting on beating Leonard at games when Leonard is looking for comfort.  How about "You got married on impulse, you might as well get divorced....blah blah..."  He still has a good capacity to say the wrong thing.

He's not the total jerk he used to be - or the same kind of jerk - but he still is on occasion.  

[Stephen Hawking]

45 minutes ago, April said:

Equally, I have not much hope for Issabella even though she wasn't part of that meeting

Maybe the idea is, when he's learned to do without being spoiled with his parent's money, he'll realize, down to earth Issabella is the one for him.

[BigBang15]

15 hours ago, 3ku11 said:

But I do share the opinion Amy made Sheldon worser. No ones fault. I just think they bring out the worst in each other. Season 4 I really enjoyed them. Since then it's all gone down hill for me. Its such an imbalanced relationship. It's all on Sheldons terms. I like Amy so I don't like she gets lost in the Amy in Shamy.

 

I don't see Amy like that. She's learned over the years how to manipulate Sheldon and at what point to stop.

[Stephen Hawking]

15 hours ago, 3ku11 said:

I just think they bring out the worst in each other.

Or maybe the best, depending on your POV.  

[No Regrets]

I'd be sad if Amy left. Not because of Sheldon, but because she's a wonderful character. I dig Amy's scenes with the girls ten times more than any scene she has with Sheldon.

[Jonny]

13 minutes ago, No Regrets said:

I'd be sad if Amy left. Not because of Sheldon, but because she's a wonderful character. I dig Amy's scenes with the girls ten times more than any scene she has with Sheldon.

It probably comes to no surprise to anyone that I don't agree in regards to the Sheldon bit but I fully share your sentiments when it comes to her as a character in her own right and I do really enjoy her interactions with the girls. PAmy in particular has been a real highlight for me this season, I feel they are much more like actual friends than they have ever been.

Edited March 22, 2017 by Jonny

[Capt. Hilts]

24 minutes ago, BigBang15 said:

I don't see Amy like that. She's learned over the years how to manipulate Sheldon and at what point to stop.

Which means that, in disputes, sometimes he wins, and sometimes, she does.

[Chrismo]

6 hours ago, Stephen Hawking said:

In Friends, they left Joey single and unattached.

I think Joey was generally okay being bu himself. Raj has not. Also Joey had his own show after friends had ended. JMO but if the show had been better and lasted more than two seasons I think he ours ended up with that blonde that was on the show.

1 hour ago, BigBang15 said:

I don't see Amy like that. She's learned over the years how to manipulate Sheldon and at what point to stop.

People have talked about how Lenny are having their problems but IMO if you have to manipulate Sheldon to get your way there's a problem.

[JohnPhD]

6 hours ago, Stephen Hawking said:

Obnoxious can be funny.

Basil Fawlty could be obnoxious, but he was considered by many to be very funny.

David Brent could be obnoxious, but he was considered by many to be very funny.

Indeed. I always enjoy Kripke and Beverley, and neither is exactly likeable. I was fine with Amy0, when she was extremely rude and treated everyone except Sheldon with disdain. The character first started to go wrong  after she forced her way into P & B's girls' night and then became repulsively needy. Needy can never be funny, IMO.  And while there's nothing wrong with having a malicious character,  Amy's malice has a slyness that I find depressing. And in a comedy, a character like that is expected to get her come-uppance, but Amy never does.

2 hours ago, Stephen Hawking said:

Maybe because she's funny.

TBBT is a comedy.

Amy is sometimes funny, not so often as the other characters, but how is that supposed to appeal especially to female viewers? Why wouldn't male viewers like the smoking monkeys or the brain dissection soliloquies?

Shamy is surely not funny, and that's Amy's main role.

[joyceraye]

1 hour ago, Stephen Hawking said:

Maybe the idea is, when he's learned to do without being spoiled with his parent's money, he'll realize, down to earth Issabella is the one for him.

I don't think Isabella would suit a man in Raj's position for long. Down-to-earth company he may need on some level, but if Isabella is his intellectual equal, why is she cleaning toilets at her age ? It's not for the reason Bernadette and Penny waited on tables. Sure, she has a son to put through law school, but over the years if she had the brains she could if she wanted to have qualified for something better and earned decent money. Even if she'd been at home for eighteen years before being widowed or deserted, there'd have been time and opportunity during those  years to improve herself educationally if she'd felt so inclined. It's not as if she needs to take a low-paid job to fit round children's school hours. Plenty of intelligent people don't bother with an education beyond the basic - it's a free country as we say over here - but someone like that wouldn't do for a PhD whose only friends are in a tight, highly-educated social circle.

[BigBang15]

People have talked about how Lenny are having their problems but IMO if you have to manipulate Sheldon to get your way there's a problem.

Why? That's how is mother handles him. That's the only way stubborn Sheldon can ever be able to do anything new.

Sent from my D5803 using Tapatalk

[April]

5 minutes ago, BigBang15 said:

Why? That's how is mother handles him. That's the only way stubborn Sheldon can ever be able to do anything new.

Equating Amy with his mother is exactly the problem. Yikes. Many Shamy fans actually don't like Amy mothering Sheldon and the characters don't want that either. I'm glad that we had episodes where this manipulation nonsense is rejected. What Amy needs to do is just stand her ground and not let him get away with his shenanigans - which she has done plenty of times now and it works like a charm. True, Sheldon can be stubborn but it's actually not that hard to kick his ass if necessary.

[Capt. Hilts]

24 minutes ago, joyceraye said:

I don't think Isabella would suit a man in Raj's position for long. Down-to-earth company he may need on some level, but if Isabella is his intellectual equal, why is she cleaning toilets at her age ? 

Because those are the kind of jobs many intelligent, as well as educated, immigrants get while getting a better hold of using English.  It happens at my gym. We get smart folks whose English is dodgy and they work as janitors for about six months, make connections among the patrons of the club and are on their way.  If she were not smart, she wouldn't have gotten that job. 

[kimbee73]

I'm going to weigh in and say that I would miss any of the characters if they left. They all have their own personalities that make the show what it is. Do I think the addition of Amy and Bernadette made the show better, not necessarily. I definitely enjoyed the first three seasons as much as I enjoy it now but for different reasons. Before I watched this show I had no idea was shipping was. Then the Locomotive Manipulation aired and I got  more and more hooked on Shamy. Did I always want Penny and Leonard together, absolutely, but I sort of knew that would happen from day 1. It was written that way. I knew it was going to be how can I get the girl type of show. And I am with many of you on here that feel the he wore me down storyline is old. I can't stand when they talk about that.....he didn't wear her down....she fell in love with him. Did it take some time, of course, because she was afraid. She had been hurt so many times that she was cautious. And of course Leonard was nothing like all those other guys until tptb decided he needed to have cheated on her. 

Now as far as Bernadette.....she made Howard a better man....no doubt about it. He was utterly creepy and still has his moments now. Just a few weeks ago it was pointed out to him by Leonard.

Amy made Sheldon somewhat different. He is still an ass just not all the time, in my opinion. I watch older episodes now and say why do they put up with him? How is he not dead? Why are they friends with him?

But I do sometimes say the same thing about Leonard. He can be really mean to Sheldon. Not as much as the opposite way but these guys are supposedly best friends and they both have treated each other terribly at times.

[HeWolf]

29 minutes ago, Capt. Hilts said:

Because those are the kind of jobs many intelligent, as well as educated, immigrants get while getting a better hold of using English.  It happens at my gym. We get smart folks whose English is dodgy and they work as janitors for about six months, make connections among the patrons of the club and are on their way.  If she were not smart, she wouldn't have gotten that job. 

I can relate to your point until you get to the last sentence. While there are undoubtedly intelligent people working at the university in non-intellectual fields, (Sheldon's janitor teammate from the Physics Bowl comes to mind), it is unlikely that custodial hiring decisions are made based upon the perceived intelligence of the candidates. 

I am hesitant to raise this question after seeing the comments on Indian culture in the Raj/Priya discussion, but would Raj actually consider a relationship with a menial laborer? He himself said that in his parents home they refer to the servants as 'untouchables'. How pervasive would this mindset actually be in his outlook towards blue collar workers?