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[Spoilers] Discussion: Season 10

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4 hours ago, joyceraye said:

He can find them but can't or won't keep them. Even Sheldon once pointed out that he gets carried away and tries too hard. He found Emily S and could have hung onto her - he was the one who did the dumping.

He gets along with women, that's true, but he's certainly not what they are looking for in a lover. In season 5 he had a date with Lakshmi, but it turns out she's gay. She actually liked his feminine side and thought he's the perfect phony-baloney husband.

When he gathered all his ex-girlfriends, Claire pointed out he's incredibly vain and they all found out Raj is exactly what they don't want in a man.

This is also why it doesn't bother me when Raj and Penny spend time together. 

Edited by Cloud Strife
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Maybe the work related gossip was stuff he probably would have liked to know more about or partake in, but even then he moaned to Howardette about that sort of gossip and that he has no real interest in 'soap opera' stuff. The rest? Clothes shopping, moisture masks, Yoga etc Leonard would or doesn't like.

I got the impression as long as he and Raj had done some stuff together as well he would have been perfectly fine and happy with being excluded from some of the stuff that Penny and Raj did together.

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23 minutes ago, HeWolf said:

Maybe that's because he doesn't have much of a wife. Penny seriously needs to grow up.

 

I won't disagree but how can Leonard not know any of the people Penny works with. Doesn't make him much of a husband.

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25 minutes ago, Chrismo said:

I won't disagree but how can Leonard not know any of the people Penny works with. Doesn't make him much of a husband.

Is that necessarily so? Penny is a sales rep. Who does she actually work with? She would have a supervisor and her co-workers would be other sales reps. For the most part, hers would be a solitary job spent traveling a route consisting of doctor's offices, clinics, and hospitals. The people there would be customers. The people she is known to hide her wedding ring from.

I work on a secure compound. My wife has met my co-workers at a few functions and she knows of them from our conversations. She does not actually know any of them. How well is Leonard expected to know the other sales reps from Penny's company? Why would he know them at all? We have not seen any instances of Penny bringing them into her social sphere of friends. 

Penny knows Leonard's co-workers because they have become part of her world through Leonard. Not because she has put any effort into meeting them. They were brought to her. Howard and Raj have always been around. Kripke met her in 4A. Leslie she met in 4A. She met Bert through Amy. If Penny brought her co-workers around Leonard then he would know them. If she spoke of them, apart from gossipy stuff, then he would at least know something about them. 

Knowing, or not knowing, someone's co-workers doesn't necessarily make you a good spouse. Loving someone, and demonstrating that love through actions, words, consideration, sacrifice, and a myriad of other ways does. Using that metric, Leonard is 100 % better at being a husband than Penny is at being a wife.

Edited by HeWolf
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5 minutes ago, April said:

Yeah, that's the same vibe I got as well. The book shopping scene that was cut would have emphasised that, imo, cause as long as they're doing stuff that he likes he's fine apparently?

Admittedly this leads me to a point where I'm really frustrated with how Leonard is portrayed and Lenny as a whole. I have sympathy for him for being left out and P&R excluding him is not nice. BUT. When he complaints about everything that Raj and Penny do it's clear that he could have been involved with Penny's life and interests more if he wanted to. It's said she took him to a party at work and introduced him to her colleagues and he doesn't even remember being there, yet alone any details about what's going on at Penny's workplace because it's too much like a soap opera and who cares about that, amirite? Likewise he seems to have a weird disdain for all things "girly" for no reason as if taking care of ones looks and health is somehow super terrible?? With the way he's focussed on Penny's looks* you'd think he'd be more appreciative! Point being: He could have gotten more involved in Penny's life and what she's up do but he decidedly goes against that and it seems like the marginal interest he takes here is only because things don't revolve around his interests anymore.

*Leonard focussing so much on Penny's looks has been an old pet peeve of mine. He never compliments her as a person - it's only about how pretty and hot she is. Nothing wrong with a man finding his woman attractive but it's grating when it's seemingly the only thing. Even in that recent episode when Penny got that physics principle almost right he said something about how that makes her hotter and only that. Not even a "You're hot and smart - I'm a lucky guy!" or whatever. The only thing that seems to be important is how attractive she is which I think does both characters a huge disservice.

As @serena_1995 said in the other thread: It makes it look like the only thing they have in common is the sex (and even that hasn't been much of a plot point). I've been wanting for ages for the writers to find some common ground with Lenny so that we maybe can ditch the "What are these two even talking about?" vibe of the couple. Episodes like this one makes me think about that episode when they went to the cinema as friends and Leonard said he only did things for/with her to get sex. Ughhh! For all that people say Penny needs to grow up I think Leonard has some growing up to do as well.

Lenny could be so much better than this. *sigh*

All this is why Lenny isn't a believable couple to me. Their foundations are flimsy and their problems paint a picture of a couple that should have never got to marriage in the first place.

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It may be just me and my perception but when Penny and Leonard do wrong Penny's action are magnified and Leonard's seem to be ignored.

4 minutes ago, Judith said:

All this is why Lenny isn't a believable couple to me. Their foundations are flimsy and their problems paint a picture of a couple that should have never got to marriage in the first place.

But that's the interesting part of the story which the writers cannot seem to figure out anymore like they did the first 6 or 7 seasons. If Amy and Sheldon switched clothes would anyone notice?  Being exactly alike isn't exciting either.

Edited by Chrismo
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11 minutes ago, April said:

Yeah, that's the same vibe I got as well. The book shopping scene that was cut would have emphasised that, imo, cause as long as they're doing stuff that he likes he's fine apparently?

Admittedly this leads me to a point where I'm really frustrated with how Leonard is portrayed and Lenny as a whole. I have sympathy for him for being left out and P&R excluding him is not nice. BUT. When he complaints about everything that Raj and Penny do it's clear that he could have been involved with Penny's life and interests more if he wanted to. It's said she took him to a party at work and introduced him to her colleagues and he doesn't even remember being there, yet alone any details about what's going on at Penny's workplace because it's too much like a soap opera and who cares about that, amirite? Likewise he seems to have a weird disdain for all things "girly" for no reason as if taking care of ones looks and health is somehow super terrible?? With the way he's focussed on Penny's looks* you'd think he'd be more appreciative! Point being: He could have gotten more involved in Penny's life and what she's up do but he decidedly goes against that and it seems like the marginal interest he takes here is only because things don't revolve around his interests anymore.

*Leonard focussing so much on Penny's looks has been an old pet peeve of mine. He never compliments her as a person - it's only about how pretty and hot she is. Nothing wrong with a man finding his woman attractive but it's grating when it's seemingly the only thing. Even in that recent episode when Penny got that physics principle almost right he said something about how that makes her hotter and only that. Not even a "You're hot and smart - I'm a lucky guy!" or whatever. The only thing that seems to be important is how attractive she is which I think does both characters a huge disservice.

As @serena_1995 said in the other thread: It makes it look like the only thing they have in common is the sex (and even that hasn't been much of a plot point). I've been wanting for ages for the writers to find some common ground with Lenny so that we maybe can ditch the "What are these two even talking about?" vibe of the couple. Episodes like this one makes me think about that episode when they went to the cinema as friends and Leonard said he only did things for/with her to get sex. Ughhh! For all that people say Penny needs to grow up I think Leonard has some growing up to do as well.

Lenny could be so much better than this. *sigh*

Yet through out the series run despite the "What do they talk about" mantra. Lenny in the past seem to communciate the best out of all the couples. Shamy at times can barley hold a conversation together. Lately though they are just not giving Lenny the time they used too. They rush through an episode. The pacing is all over the place. I mean whens the last time Lenny had an isolated 5 minute scene. If they just sat them down and talked. Things would improove for them. But they keep throwing both of them under the bus. I Feel for a snickers wrapper lol. So I agree they both need to grow up. It's like they are still stuck in nuetral since they got engaged. And neither of them has done anything to move forward in their relationship. Like Penny still acts like Leonard needs to jump hoops for her. And Leonard still only goes on about how Hot Penny is. Of course they are more then this. They have been in the past. But atm the TPTB are lazy, And don't seem to care. About any payoff. It is just random and next episode it is something else. And so on and so on..

5 minutes ago, Judith said:

All this is why Lenny isn't a believable couple to me. Their foundations are flimsy and their problems paint a picture of a couple that should have never got to marriage in the first place.

That reasoning could be used to why Shamy are not beleivable as a couple either. 

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16 minutes ago, 3ku11 said:

Yet through out the series run despite the "What do they talk about" mantra. Lenny in the past seem to communciate the best out of all the couples. Shamy at times can barley hold a conversation together. Lately though they are just not giving Lenny the time they used too. They rush through an episode. The pacing is all over the place. I mean whens the last time Lenny had an isolated 5 minute scene. If they just sat them down and talked. Things would improove for them. But they keep throwing both of them under the bus. I Feel for a snickers wrapper lol. So I agree they both need to grow up. It's like they are still stuck in nuetral since they got engaged. And neither of them has done anything to move forward in their relationship. Like Penny still acts like Leonard needs to jump hoops for her. And Leonard still only goes on about how Hot Penny is. Of course they are more then this. They have been in the past. But atm the TPTB are lazy, And don't seem to care. About any payoff. It is just random and next episode it is something else. And so on and so on..

That reasoning could be used to why Shamy are not beleivable as a couple either. 

Getting to the point they rush trough Lenny. On the episode thread someone who was at the taping mentioned that not only did they cut the bookstore scene they cut out the part when Raj and Penny apologize to Leonard.

Edited by Chrismo
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18 minutes ago, Judith said:

All this is why Lenny isn't a believable couple to me. Their foundations are flimsy and their problems paint a picture of a couple that should have never got to marriage in the first place.

Yeah!  Why are there people who waste their time shipping these characters? Why does this ship even exist? It's fake! Every other couple, including Shenny, is more credible than Lenny.

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6 minutes ago, luminous said:

Yeah!  Why are there people who waste their time shipping these characters? Why does this ship even exist? It's fake! Every other couple, including Shenny, is more credible than Lenny.

I don't think anyone's wasting their time shipping a couple, as long as they think it's worthwhile.

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10 minutes ago, luminous said:

Yeah!  Why are there people who waste their time shipping these characters? Why does this ship even exist? It's fake! Every other couple, including Shenny, is more credible than Lenny.

I'm very surprised on you!

n_00382.gif.a8e905f4c15ca7196501c34ed646983a.gif
Cheers, mate. :shy:

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2 minutes ago, hokie3457 said:

Very interesting April.  Do you think we can blame a lack of imagination on writers, show runners??  Is it Molaro?  Prady was the show runner in seasons 1-5. I may be a bit nostalgic, but then things between L & P seemed more relaxed.  They were a more organic couple.  There were differences, but they seemed to be able to dance around those differences and dance with each other.  Now?  For many of us things seem a mess.  Not so bad that they can't be changed or improved.  Is that what "they" want?  For the life of me, I can't figure out what the "what" is.....

I'm not sure who to blame personally about this. I'd agree that they had more better moments in earlier seasons that made them more believable and engaging as a couple but those seasons also had some ugly moments and later seasons had some sweet moments as well. So I find it hard to pin it on the showrunner or individual people. Especially since the episodes are written by a collective of writers and many things I find grating are often little lines that aren't necessarily part of the big plot.

I think part of the issue is that Lenny as a couple are rooted in stereotypes about how hot girls always pick the assholes instead of the nice guys and putting a bit of a spin on it. So you have Penny as the hot girl who often ends up with assholes but eventually sees the light in nice little Leonard from next door. So far so good. But at this point this whole idea about nice guys has some cultural baggage as well (Wiki has a whole article about this if you're interested: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nice_guy ) and Leonard taps both positive and negative aspects of the concept. I'm not sure how aware the writers are of these unfortunate implications that come with the territory but them being mostly a bunch of guys I can imagine this baggage creeps into their writing without second thoughts. But who knows...

If it is intentionally I'm similarly at a loss as to what this all is about. It certainly doesn't help that we haven't gotten many interviews this season. A few words from Molaro might have given us a bit of perspective here. Johnny Galecki said Lenny are kinda in a rough patch which is fair enough I guess. But to what end? There's no rhyme nor reason to this rough patch yet except our own speculations because the show refuses to let the characters sit down and solve their issues. The closest they have come was with the RA which then has never been mentioned again and clearly also did zilch to help the situation. Back then Penny was mad that Leonard didn't take an interest in her life and now months later he still doesn't apparently.

So where is this going then? IF this is intentionally leading to some sort of plot development my guess would be something will blow up towards the end of the season that forces the couple to re-examine their relationship. I'd be surprised if there'd be a divorce but a temporal separation with one of them going away over the summer to find themselves or get a clear head or whatever could be in the cards. And it could do some good things for Lenny. If the writers pull their shit together and dedicate the first half of S11 to Lenny the way they did with Shamy in S9/10 it could even be great. If it isn't intentional the show will just continue to slog on with those two like it did in the last two years so I hope that's not it.

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15 minutes ago, April said:

I'm not sure who to blame personally about this. I'd agree that they had more better moments in earlier seasons that made them more believable and engaging as a couple but those seasons also had some ugly moments and later seasons had some sweet moments as well. So I find it hard to pin it on the showrunner or individual people. Especially since the episodes are written by a collective of writers and many things I find grating are often little lines that aren't necessarily part of the big plot.

I think part of the issue is that Lenny as a couple are rooted in stereotypes about how hot girls always pick the assholes instead of the nice guys and putting a bit of a spin on it. So you have Penny as the hot girl who often ends up with assholes but eventually sees the light in nice little Leonard from next door. So far so good. But at this point this whole idea about nice guys has some cultural baggage as well (Wiki has a whole article about this if you're interested: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nice_guy ) and Leonard taps both positive and negative aspects of the concept. I'm not sure how aware the writers are of these unfortunate implications that come with the territory but them being mostly a bunch of guys I can imagine this baggage creeps into their writing without second thoughts. But who knows...

If it is intentionally I'm similarly at a loss as to what this all is about. It certainly doesn't help that we haven't gotten many interviews this season. A few words from Molaro might have given us a bit of perspective here. Johnny Galecki said Lenny are kinda in a rough patch which is fair enough I guess. But to what end? There's no rhyme nor reason to this rough patch yet except our own speculations because the show refuses to let the characters sit down and solve their issues. The closest they have come was with the RA which then has never been mentioned again and clearly also did zilch to help the situation. Back then Penny was mad that Leonard didn't take an interest in her life and now months later he still doesn't apparently.

So where is this going then? IF this is intentionally leading to some sort of plot development my guess would be something will blow up towards the end of the season that forces the couple to re-examine their relationship. I'd be surprised if there'd be a divorce but a temporal separation with one of them going away over the summer to find themselves or get a clear head or whatever could be in the cards. And it could do some good things for Lenny. If the writers pull their shit together and dedicate the first half of S11 to Lenny the way they did with Shamy in S9/10 it could even be great. If it isn't intentional the show will just continue to slog on with those two like it did in the last two years so I hope that's not it.

Very nicely put April.  Also well thought out.  I apreciate your outlook as a voice of sanity and sort of remove in that you view L & P as a non-shipper.  Thank you for your reason.  "Sail on, oh ship of State!"  (yes.  I'm quoting Churchill in a fan forum.....)

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26 minutes ago, April said:

I'm not sure who to blame personally about this. I'd agree that they had more better moments in earlier seasons that made them more believable and engaging as a couple but those seasons also had some ugly moments and later seasons had some sweet moments as well. So I find it hard to pin it on the showrunner or individual people. Especially since the episodes are written by a collective of writers and many things I find grating are often little lines that aren't necessarily part of the big plot.

I think part of the issue is that Lenny as a couple are rooted in stereotypes about how hot girls always pick the assholes instead of the nice guys and putting a bit of a spin on it. So you have Penny as the hot girl who often ends up with assholes but eventually sees the light in nice little Leonard from next door. So far so good. But at this point this whole idea about nice guys has some cultural baggage as well (Wiki has a whole article about this if you're interested: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nice_guy ) and Leonard taps both positive and negative aspects of the concept. I'm not sure how aware the writers are of these unfortunate implications that come with the territory but them being mostly a bunch of guys I can imagine this baggage creeps into their writing without second thoughts. But who knows...

If it is intentionally I'm similarly at a loss as to what this all is about. It certainly doesn't help that we haven't gotten many interviews this season. A few words from Molaro might have given us a bit of perspective here. Johnny Galecki said Lenny are kinda in a rough patch which is fair enough I guess. But to what end? There's no rhyme nor reason to this rough patch yet except our own speculations because the show refuses to let the characters sit down and solve their issues. The closest they have come was with the RA which then has never been mentioned again and clearly also did zilch to help the situation. Back then Penny was mad that Leonard didn't take an interest in her life and now months later he still doesn't apparently.

So where is this going then? IF this is intentionally leading to some sort of plot development my guess would be something will blow up towards the end of the season that forces the couple to re-examine their relationship. I'd be surprised if there'd be a divorce but a temporal separation with one of them going away over the summer to find themselves or get a clear head or whatever could be in the cards. And it could do some good things for Lenny. If the writers pull their shit together and dedicate the first half of S11 to Lenny the way they did with Shamy in S9/10 it could even be great. If it isn't intentional the show will just continue to slog on with those two like it did in the last two years so I hope that's not it.

Really nice thoughts @April , but sadly I don't think the writers will focus on Lenny in the first half in season 11. To me Lenny haven' t been in the writers focus for a very long time and In My opinion I don't think that will change just because of a new season. Apparently the writers doesn't think it is funny anymore to write decent Lenny stories 

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16 minutes ago, Lagernisse said:

Really nice thoughts @April , but sadly I don't think the writers will focus on Lenny in the first half in season 11. To me Lenny haven' t been in the writers focus for a very long time and In My opinion I don't think that will change just because of a new season. Apparently the writers doesn't think it is funny anymore to write decent Lenny stories 

It all depends if there's some purpose to this madness. It there isn't it probably is even worse than the writers simply losing interest - it may be that they actually think this is super funny. So yeah...

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3 minutes ago, snapepans said:

I just talked about this Lenny thing with my good friend, and she reminded me that in some interviews, Molaro himself said that the sarcastic banter was Lenny's thing, and he thought that was funny(I don't remember his exact words, but I do remember something like this, please feel free to correct me).

So, to him, maybe Lenny is fine, and Lenny have NO problems, therefore Lenny don't need to be fixed, at all.

I don't agree with him at all, but I fear this is indeed his thought.

All above are just my opinion.

That's sort how I remember it.

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13 minutes ago, snapepans said:

I just talked about this Lenny thing with my good friend, and she reminded me that in some interviews, Molaro himself said that the sarcastic banter was Lenny's thing, and he thought that was funny(I don't remember his exact words, but I do remember something like this, please feel free to correct me).

So, to him, maybe Lenny is fine, and Lenny have NO problems, therefore Lenny don't need to be fixed, at all.

I don't agree with him at all, but I fear this is indeed his thought.

All above are just my opinion.

You're right. I guess I’ve discovered Molaro’s favorite Lenny-jiff. :fi_lone_ranger:

o_00301.gif.c32a26f9e0c64488331d5b2e07494159.gif

( yeah, as advertised.)

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As to April's point above I do agree something could blow up with Lenny though I don't know where either one would go. I think a blow up could involve Raj and Emily. Emily bumping to Leonard and finding out Raj is living with them. Emily questioning why would you go along with after their hook up. I know its fanfiction like but who knows.

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26 minutes ago, snapepans said:

So, to him, maybe Lenny is fine, and Lenny have NO problems, therefore Lenny don't need to be fixed, at all.

That's exactly how I feel about Lenny.

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6 minutes ago, Chrismo said:

As to April's point above I do agree something could blow up with Lenny though I don't know where either one would go. I think a blow up could involve Raj and Emily. Emily bumping to Leonard and finding out Raj is living with them. Emily questioning why would you go along with after their hook up. I know its fanfiction like but who knows.

I would like everything if it were funny, finally! :shy:

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27 minutes ago, Cloud Strife said:

That's exactly how I feel about Lenny.

I could probably go along with that but IMO the car ride with Penny, Bernie and Amy seemed to suggest something more.

24 minutes ago, veejay said:

I would like everything if it were funny, finally! :shy:

It could be funny if Raj/Penny saw Emily and Leonard together. The thing is though Emily's and Leonard's version of what happened in 4.24 is different.

Edited by Chrismo
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