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[Spoilers] Discussion: Season 10


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On 4/27/2017 at 1:48 PM, bfm said:

Like @April, I think the swimming is OOC on purpose. It goes to show that Ramona made him do something he is very unlikely to do, hence adding to the gang's concerns.

Oh, I call BS. The writers just forgot he doesn't swim. I can of at least ten things they've pulled our of their backsides in the last two seasons. This was probably another one of them.

On 4/27/2017 at 6:23 PM, joyceraye said:

His only real life model is Lenny and they were in and out of their relationship like a fiddler's elbow for years.

I LOVE this term. Of course, I knew some guys in an Irish band called Fiddler's elbow once...but I just had to say this.

7 hours ago, Lagernisse said:

The reviewer on this site is not happy with how Lenny has been written.

But they still gave the ep four out of five. So that's not the only thing that matters. to them, and probably to most people.

Edited by Die Zimtzicke
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31 minutes ago, 3ku11 said:

Be better if Penny dated a smart/handsome guy? Really that would ruin the show. The point was Leonard was always her exception. And they always protected that. 

It would be much more realistic than Leonard dating/attracting all these smart and beautiful women. Priya...Joyce...Stephanie...Alex was attracted to him...Penny beautiful and smart, just not genious.

 

Edited by Tensor
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6 hours ago, Die Zimtzicke said:

Oh, I call BS. The writers just forgot he doesn't swim. I can of at least ten things they've pulled our of their backsides in the last two seasons. This was probably another one of them.

I LOVE this term. Of course, I knew some guys in an Irish band called Fiddler's elbow once...but I just had to say this.

But they still gave the ep four out of five. So that's not the only thing that matters. to them, and probably to most people.

I think the writers are actually remembering something for once and want us to see links foreshadowing Ramona and things to come. . Sheldon has been making a point now and again in this last year or so that he's willing to try things he hasn't been keen on before and to put some of his demons behind him. He's still occasionally in the mode where investigating the physics of the brain - or the universe -  is as important as the colour of his icey or the flavour of his  whiteboard pen, but he's motivated to fit into the world better. Sheldon wants people other than Amy to teach him  things. This time they're physical rather than cerebral,for the good of his ageing brain. It's finally sinking in that neuroscience and biology are about  more than 'grey squishy things' and might actually be important. He claims brain references for himself without recourse to 'Amy says'. Rajesh taught him how to make puff or choux or flaky or whatever the croissant pastry is. Howard attempted to teach him juggling and gave him a unicycle which he tried to teach himself to ride. In the first swimming lesson beginners are encouraged to have confidence in putting their faces in the water. With an Olympic swimmer to hand, when and where better for Sheldon to start  learning  to do just that than in a university pool instructed by someone who even when she was his pupil could make him accomplish anything for his own good with her toe up his backside ?

Even after all these years, in discussion with his own intended spouse, despite maturing in many ways Sheldon still won't acknowledge, in the way that Ramona made him do, that his games and superhero obsessions take time away from concentrating on what he wants to achieve. 

Edited by joyceraye
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On ‎4‎/‎26‎/‎2017 at 9:18 PM, jenafan said:

I would like to address the topic of Shelnard.  Was I the only one ecstatic over reading about Leonard shutting Raj out to have a one-on-one with his buddy over his fears?  Even offering for Sheldon to come back to 4A in Amy's absence?   I've missed these moments between Sheldon and Leonard.

I didn't know about this, but it makes me want to vomit. So... Raj is finally out of 4 A and Leonard tells Sheldon to come back while Amy's at Princeton? Does Leonard have no desire to live alone with his wife for an extended period of time? I've seen couples written ridiculously in many sit-coms but none as much as Lenny lately. It is truly pathetic.

On ‎4‎/‎28‎/‎2017 at 0:38 AM, serena_1995 said:

when Sheldon spoke Hindi in the latest episode, Raj said he doesn't understand Hindi. But didn't Raj speak Hindi at some point in the show ?I don't know Hindi myself, but this seems like an inconsistency from the writers.

Indeed. While the writers might have an extended vocabulary, "continuity" is not a part of it.

Edited by Carlos
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I didn't know about this, but it makes me want to vomit. So... Raj is finally out of 4 A and Leonard tell Sheldon to come back while Amy's at Princeton? Does Leonard have no desire to live alone with his wife for an extended period of time? I've seen couple written ridiculously in many sut-coms but none as much as Lenny lately. It is truly pathetic.

It's really unbelievable. do tptb think we're idiots or is Leonard one

Sent from my SM-G920P using Tapatalk

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1 minute ago, Carlos said:

I didn't know about this, but it makes me want to vomit. So... Raj is finally out of 4 A and Leonard tell Sheldon to come back while Amy's at Princeton? Does Leonard have no desire to live alone with his wife for an extended period of time? I've seen couple written ridiculously in many sut-coms but none as much as Lenny lately. It is truly pathetic.

I think Leonard was just trying to be a friend and comfort Sheldon, that is all.  However, after hearing Penny complain about having to be forced to live with Sheldon, it seems extremely inconsiderate on Leonard's part unless he discussed it with Penny off screen.

Nonetheless, deny it all they want, it seems Beverly's words have some merit. 

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5 hours ago, shamyyellow said:

Thanks for recognizing that. I hate all the bickering between Lennies and Shamies because it's not a contest. They couldn't be more different and there is certainly room for both. We shouldn't be enemies because one couple and ship is happy while the other isn't. 

That I can see. Unless the point the writers are trying to make is that married life isn't for Lenny, I don't understand what the point of all the fighting is. They've established that Penny hates her job, but that's a known fact since last season. They had an episode about Penny wishing Leonard would try harder. Why not an episode where he does? Did that happen? I do see the problems there and honestly have no idea what stops the writers from fixing it.

 

Isn't that easy to say to when your ships happy and our ship isn't that we shouldn't be enemies? People as part of human nature are not going to be happy when their side is down and the other side is happy.

why don't they have an episode when Leonard tries harder for Penny? They have had countless amount of episodes when Leonard tries harder. He has certainly tried harder than Penny through the years.

As to being married you bring up an interesting point.I think the ultimate problem started in the finale of season 8. There should have been just one downer storyline and it should of been Shamy. I'm not sure how many people were that shocked by Amy breaking up with him. Instead JMO the writers had to bring Lenny down with them. Sheldon's suggestion to getting married IMO was a guise so Sheldon could propose. If he had Amy he wouldn't need Lenny. The Lenny getting married was a bs story from the beginning. They were going to get married in Vegas like Penny did before (another bs Lenny story). then the writers come up with the Mandy BS. This turns into the cliffhanger. I personally hoped they wouldn't of gotten married especially looking back. I think of both storylines  the Lenny one should gotten more or at least equal coverage but the writers wrapped that up,in two episodes and dragged out Shamy for 9( the writers knew they screwed up the weddingwhen they had the second one). Then Lenny goes into married life living with Sheldon and then eventually Raj. They have been living together alone just as long as Shamy has. 

Just my thoughts to your questions. jenafan and tensor covered most everything else.

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1 hour ago, Carlos said:

I didn't know about this, but it makes me want to vomit. So... Raj is finally out of 4 A and Leonard tell Sheldon to come back while Amy's at Princeton? Does Leonard have no desire to live alone with his wife for an extended period of time? I've seen couple written ridiculously in many sut-coms but none as much as Lenny lately. It is truly pathetic.

That's not what happened...this is what happened..

14 minutes ago, Radar said:

Wasn't it Raj who suggested that Sheldon could move back to 4A and Leonard got rid of Raj immediately afterwards to talk to Sheldon alone? Or did I miss something? 

Excerpt from the TR: 

Raj suggest with him now gone, Sheldon could move back into his old room so Sheldon doesn't have to be alone. Leonard asks to speak to Raj out in the hallway for a moment and instead shuts the door behind Raj so he was out of the room. Leonard sits next to Sheldon to offer him advice on what to do with Amy. He tells him that he is not losing her and that Amy will only be gone a few months and he needs to show her how much of a supportive boyfriend he can be.

Thanks again, @kazzie for providing all the details!

Yes..she was there and provided a very detailed report.

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5 hours ago, Die Zimtzicke said:

Oh, I call BS. The writers just forgot he doesn't swim. I can of at least ten things they've pulled our of their backsides in the last two seasons. This was probably another one of them.

I LOVE this term. Of course, I knew some guys in an Irish band called Fiddler's elbow once...but I just had to say this.

But they still gave the ep four out of five. So that's not the only thing that matters. to them, and probably to most people.

Of course isn't Lenny everything that matters in an episode, TBBT has a cast of seven people so everyone of them should matters to the writers. 

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1 hour ago, jenafan said:

I most certainly agree, but if the shoe were on the other foot and you were a Lenny, would you not feel the slightest bit of jealousy over the attention Shamy has gotten in a single season alone?

I do get this. That is why I mentioned times in the past when I was jealous of Lenny. I was horribly jealous of them in S7 when they got engaged and all Shamy got after their train kiss was Sheldon pulling away. I understand what that storyline was all about and I appreciated that his feelings were too strong for him to know what to do with, but not knowing of the good things that would come, I was very envious. Even before that, while I always appreciated Shamy for taking things slow, I felt a lot of jealousy towards Lenny and how many hand-holds and kisses and bed scenes they got together. The role has certainly reversed these days, but I know how it feels to be on the other side. 

However, it doesn't make sense to blame the wrong people in any scenario. I never begrudged Lenny for having those things or wished their fans great disappointment down the road. Even now that it's happening, I feel awful. It's no fun to be excited about TBBT when you see other people infinitely disappointed and disinterested. But speaking of placing blame on the wrong people, I don't blame anybody who is sad by the state of Lenny these days... I just always hope that things will get better so we can be excited together.

This is actually why I made my original post earlier today. I want to engage with the people who don't feel like me and try to find some common ground and understanding. I want to know what would make them happy and where they think everything went wrong. If we can't all be happy, the least we can do is sympathize when one of us is down.

40 minutes ago, Chrismo said:

Isn't that easy to say to when your ships happy and our ship isn't that we shouldn't be enemies? People as part of human nature are not going to be happy when their side is down and the other side is happy.

It's just not my nature to compete. I'm an empathizer to a great fault, so I will always be searching for a time when I felt the same way and using that to level the playing field. I know that not everybody is programmed that way, but making enemies is never productive. I have been on the other side and was sad, but the blame always went to the writers for not being fair and balanced. 

1 hour ago, jenafan said:

 While they are happy for the Shamy shippers, they don't want us, of all people to try to convince them their arguments aren't justified or to be asked to explain themselves to us.  

Once again, I completely agree but there is a difference between someone who is justified to complain and someone who wishes ill of those who are happy. Just like there is a difference between those who want to understand where Lennies are coming from and those who try to talk them out of being upset. Sadly, because there is such a mix of reactions, the wrong people tend to get blamed or yelled at time and time again. 

52 minutes ago, Chrismo said:

why don't they have an episode when Leonard tries harder for Penny? They have had countless amount of episodes when Leonard tries harder. He has certainly tried harder than Penny through the years.

I was thinking about this season when I wrote that. They had the episode where Leonard was acting like a slob and Penny wanted more... but I don't believe they followed up with an episode where Leonard made an effort to clean up, do something nice, and treat her better. I'm thinking in terms of the daydream Penny has before his burp snaps her back to reality. They were fighting again the next episode... about her brother, no less. Since when is he relevant? The episode after that was Penny crying in her car outside of a club because she is sad and doesn't see progress being made in her relationship/life. They were ignored in the next one. Once you get to The Comic Con Conundrum, it's just a mess. Now it's Leonard who puts effort into their relationship again? Wasn't it the opposite 4 episodes before this one? And just like with Shamy, the focus is all too often on what these couples don't like about each other. Everything doesn't have to be a chore. 

I'm sympathizing here. There is no reason to have an episode about how Leonard needs to try harder when he's the one who has tried to hardest in their marriage... just to pretend it never happened. No episode where he does something really nice for her like she dreamed up? Speaking as a Shamy who loved this episode, I say they could've skipped Amy finding out that Sheldon told the university about their sex life and giving that storyline to Lenny. 

1 hour ago, Chrismo said:

Sheldon's suggestion to getting married IMO was a guise so Sheldon could propose. If he had Amy he wouldn't need Lenny. The Lenny getting married was a bs story from the beginning. They were going to get married in Vegas like Penny did before (another bs Lenny story). then the writers come up with the Mandy BS. This turns into the cliffhanger. I personally hoped they wouldn't of gotten married especially looking back.

I always felt like Sheldon was trying to push Lenny into marriage so he could propose as well. I don't know if in his mind, he couldn't be engaged until they weren't anymore or if he thought once they got married, he would need Amy more and them less. Either way, he's the one who kept bringing it up in the finale and ultimately led Lenny down that crappy road. 

I am interested to see that at least one Lenny thinks they would've been better off not married. That's how I feel, and it's not to take anything away from them as a couple. I do see some of you saying it's the laziness of the writers that ruined the marriage plot, but I'm going to disagree. The writers could've decided that instead of Sheldon running off to Princeton and proposing to Amy, he was going to fall into the kiss and cheat on her. However, a cheating storyline just doesn't fit the DNA of Sheldon or Shamy. Sure, they could've done it and written excuses as to why it makes sense, but people would've rebelled because it rubs up against everything we know. 

I feel similarly about Lenny being married.

Yes, they love each other. Yes, they were engaged. Yes, I think they're endgame. But their DNA on this show was to be up and down, back and forth, playing games, not making up their minds, and driving everybody and themselves crazy. We all knew they would live happily ever after, but does it translate well to actually see it for such an extensive amount of time? No. I think it's safe to say that it doesn't.

Yes, the writers could craft a new Leonard and Penny that are domestic and sweet, that weren't jealous or insecure or very different from each other... but then they aren't Lenny. It's like how I really want Shamy to have more fluid and classically romantic kisses and scenes, but they're Shamy and it's something I have to sacrifice to keep everything else I love about them intact. I think it all boils down to Lenny moving too fast and not being well suited for marriage. Without them fighting like they have been, domestic Lenny doesn't feel authentically them and that is why we're stuck with it.

Even if that's the case, I do think balance is key for these writers and that's how they're realistically going to fix any mistakes they've made. Let Lenny bicker, but follow it up with an episode where they're happy, cute, and center stage. It wouldn't fix everything, but it would help.

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5 hours ago, Judith said:

It would be much more realistic than Leonard dating/attracting all these smart and beautiful women. Priya...Joyce...Stephanie...Alex was attracted to him...Penny beautiful and smart, just not genious.

 

Maybe Leonard attracts smart and beautiful woman. Because contary to popular beleif on the show. Leonard is appealing. Considering post season 3, Penny out grew dumb gym guys. I don't think it is realistic at all. 

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7 hours ago, shamyyellow said:

Thanks for recognizing that. I hate all the bickering between Lennies and Shamies because it's not a contest. They couldn't be more different and there is certainly room for both. We shouldn't be enemies because one couple and ship is happy while the other isn't. 

You are totally right that it isn't a contest, but it is a little tiresome that we only get stories/plots for one of the couples and I also want to say that I'm in no way sees Shamies as an enemy, absolutely not. But in my mind the writers did a mistake with Lenny and Raj in the seasons finale by not having any plot for Lenny or Raj at all.

What will we Lennies looking forward to in the next season, there is nothing going on. 

7 hours ago, shamyyellow said:

That I can see. Unless the point the writers are trying to make is that married life isn't for Lenny, I don't understand what the point of all the fighting is. They've established that Penny hates her job, but that's a known fact since last season. They had an episode about Penny wishing Leonard would try harder. Why not an episode where he does? Did that happen? I do see the problems there and honestly have no idea what stops the writers from fixing it.

Perhaps the writers doesn't want to fix it to save plots for the next 48 episodes. Lenny needs to have some plots in season 11 and 12 ,why not more fighting seems to be option from the writers. 

7 hours ago, shamyyellow said:

They got married and are living together alone, but it seems as though all they've done is regress since then. 

There could have been all kinds of stories for the newlywed couple(honeymoon, dinner parties, travels ,the list goes on and on ) but the writers choose to not showing any of this, just have them behind the kitchen island. 

7 hours ago, shamyyellow said:

It was S4. I was thinking about the episode where Penny's dad came to town and Leonard milked her lie until she got angry enough to tell the truth. The entire episode emphasized how overbearing Leonard can be and how many times they got together and broke up again. It even touched on the fact that Leonard was the best choice for Penny and yet, she pulled back.

But just in typing that, I can see that there were solid themes and something to look forward to. Whereas now it just seems like a jumbled up mess that the writers won't untangle. You can't see where it begins or ends or what it's even suppose to be... so they just end up fighting to fight.

The writers have created this mess with Lenny  because there isn't any solutions to fix any problems. Why are they fighting ? nobody know because the writers wont tell us. Lenny were so much better written in the earlier seasons that they are today. 

 

7 hours ago, shamyyellow said:

Since part of the Lenny storyline was always a bit of a "would they/wouldn't they" and how they gravitated towards one another while dating other people, I'm not sure they have much of an identity as a happy, married couple. I think that's one of the reasons I made my original post and asked what I did. Do any of you think it would've been better if Lenny moved slower and were still only dating or engaged? The solution attached to this much fighting, taking a break, or breaking things off while in a marriage is divorce. Since all of those things were done with more grace and direction before they got married, I just wonder if the writers messed up and should've kept them where they were.

I personally thought they were a lot sweeter and more exciting when they were still discovering their feelings for each other. I don't even like a totally put together and happy Shamy. So you either have this unhappily married Lenny or this happy, boring Lenny. I just think they were better off with many, many more options before Sheldon guilted them into getting married in S8. That isn't to say I don't want them together. I do. I just think marriage backed the writers into a corner they don't feel like fight their way out of.

To be honest doesn't it feels a little bit strange to have them engaged in the end of S7 and three seasons later they are still not married. I don't see how this could have been better for Lenny. Instead of one season with no wedding planning we would have gotten three seasons. Or they got together in S5 and five seasons later they are still not engaged to be married, again I can't see how this would have been better for Lenny. Look at all the plots Howardette has been given as a wed couple, why can't the writers do this to Lenny. The writers can be really creative when they want to ,they just doesn't  want to do it for Lenny at the moment. 

8 hours ago, shamyyellow said:

I do think I understand a little bit better after you guys explained it to me. Anything else you want to say, I'm up to hearing about. Like I said, I just wanted to know what Lennies are hoping for or what they think would've made the show better. No marriage? Exploring it better?

I really would like to see Lenny as a happy newly wed couple with some interesting plots and not just stand behind the kitchen island, where the writers has placed them far to many time in my opinion. 

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9 hours ago, wowbagger said:

YES! Look, even if you hate this season, you have to admit: it has brought Tami Joe into your life. You have had the privilege of watching Howard Wolowitz, he of the pick-up artist lines and the robotic assisted masturbation, be chased from his own kitchen by the sexual overtures of a possessed doll. Don't say the showrunners never gave you anything.

With that I am reminded of 2.20

Quote

Leonard: What else you got?

Howard: Depends. Are you willing to sit on my lap and pretend to be a ventriloquist dummy?

Leonard: No.

Howard: I can’t sit on your lap, you don’t know the routine.

We never got to see Howard's routine.

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4 hours ago, Radar said:

Wasn't it Raj who suggested that Sheldon could move back to 4A and Leonard got rid of Raj immediately afterwards to talk to Sheldon alone? Or did I miss something? 

Excerpt from the TR: 

Raj suggest with him now gone, Sheldon could move back into his old room so Sheldon doesn't have to be alone. Leonard asks to speak to Raj out in the hallway for a moment and instead shuts the door behind Raj so he was out of the room. Leonard sits next to Sheldon to offer him advice on what to do with Amy. He tells him that he is not losing her and that Amy will only be gone a few months and he needs to show her how much of a supportive boyfriend he can be.

Thanks again, @kazzie for providing all the details!

It seems I misread the TR.  Thanks for the correction!  Sorry to all for the misunderstanding I created with my earlier comments.

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6 hours ago, shamyyellow said:

However, it doesn't make sense to blame the wrong people in any scenario........It's no fun to be excited about TBBT when you see other people infinitely disappointed and disinterested. 

I want to engage with the people who don't feel like me and try to find some common ground and understanding. I want to know what would make them happy and where they think everything went wrong. If we can't all be happy, the least we can do is sympathize when one of us is down.

It's just not my nature to compete. I'm an empathizer to a great fault, so I will always be searching for a time when I felt the same way and using that to level the playing field. I know that not everybody is programmed that way, but making enemies is never productive.

......there is a difference between someone who is justified to complain and someone who wishes ill of those who are happy. Just like there is a difference between those who want to understand where Lennies are coming from and those who try to talk them out of being upset. Sadly, because there is such a mix of reactions, the wrong people tend to get blamed or yelled at time and time again.

I agree with you 100%, and thank you for making your points and desired goals so clearly. 

Unfortunately, there are some who will find any reason to be upset and just want to argue for the sake of argument, or so it seems.  The best thing is just not to respond or engage if you don't want to be part of it.  My pet peeve are those who go out of their way to make it known they are bored or irritated with the discussions rather than finding a productive way to stir the conversation in a direction they want to go, while skipping posts that hold no interest for them instead of making poor choice remarks about them.

For those who want everyone to be miserable with them and go into attack mode, well that is why forum moderators exist.

Like you, I am an empathizer.  However, I have to be careful.  I take the opposite extreme in that I find myself sometimes wanting to support the Lenny's so badly that I end up demeaning my own Shamy ship to try to relate and make the Lenny's feel better.  I can't count the number of times I caused my fellow shippers to wonder what is going wrong with @jenafan because I was creating comparisons where non existed in an attempt to justify some of the writing.  That is not to say that I didn't have the right to feel how I felt at the time, but some things are best left in thought and shouldn't be written for interpretation or dissection by others if one isn't willing to accept some backlash for it.

A lot of the negative competition and arguments between the shippers could be avoided if thought were given to the words in a post and how it may be perceived before initiating a comment or making a reply.

You have been very respectful in your attempt to reach out to understand the other side, but to some, the interest stems from the Shamies being in a happy place right now and the perception of us just wanting to calm the Lennies down so as not to rob us of our joy, not because we really have an interest in why they are upset. 

I'm not saying all Lennies feel that way.  However, you can provide all the examples you want of how you have felt the same way about Shamy compared to Lenny at times.  It still does not take away the fact that in the current steam of time, the Shamies are on a high and the Lennies are left to breathe our second-hand smoke, wanting a taste of the real thing for themselves with their preferred brand of flavor.

While certainly unintended on our part, it is as if they are looking in from the outside as we taunt them.   The spark is there.  Doesn't take much for it to become a flame of outrage and competition because of the way an expression or opinion is perceived.

The DT can be a tough place to hang out in, no doubt, but I get some mental stimulation out of it.  When I have had enough, I just bail out for awhile.

Edited by jenafan
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@April, I agree.  The poor moderators need a break.  

However, we can do our part to help by not allowing those we perceive to be difficult to provoke us into continuing an argument that is offensive or going around in circles wearing us out. 

From my POV, you are usually right, anyway...  :icon_wink:

Edited by jenafan
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27 minutes ago, jenafan said:

@jenafanI agree with you 100%, and thank you ............

............. When I have had enough, I just bail out for awhile.

I also trembling with confidence (in you :shy: ) and couldn't explain the situation better.

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37 minutes ago, jenafan said:

@April, I agree.  The poor moderators need a break.  

However, we can do our part to help by not allowing those we perceive to be difficult to provoke us into continuing an argument that is offensive or going around in circles wearing is out. 

Agree with both. It is bad to everyone involved  and it doesnt fix anything about the issues were been discussed about. It only ruin everyone mood and nothing more is brought to the discussing table .

The ships threads are great for analyse all ships things related but there are subjects that dont fit there, as every character is more than a part of a couple and it is also intersisting to discuss with others who could not agree with our povs about lots of characters stuff and pointed out reasons which may help  us to understand why we could be wrong or not. Because sometimes also happens a person to realize was wrong about something watched or understood from the show. Also every relationship is not perfect and their issues could be discussed in a less ship mode way. What most of times happen is these issues get to be a way to provoke the posters without any reason to explain why. It is like the way of use a quote. It happens often to be a way of mocking or provoking the posters's previous post and for what? For nothing as the intention was only to try to make the poster get mad or miserable.

 

Edited by spidergirl
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7 hours ago, jenafan said:

I most certainly agree, but if the shoe were on the other foot and you were a Lenny, would you not feel the slightest bit of jealousy over the attention Shamy has gotten in a single season alone?   For example, how many bedroom shots have Shamy had in S10?  All Lenny got was a conversion of Leonard's room into the pink palace, and Penny jokingly willing to choose a candle over her husband to remain behind from the former decor.  They haven't been shown in the bedroom since.   What about kisses?  Heck, even Howardette gets more intimate screen time than Lenny.   

Here is the clincher:  Lenny shippers were on the scene long before the other couples were even a writer's thought.  I feel their disappointment and frustration is justified.  While they are happy for the Shamy shippers, they don't want us, of all people to try to convince them their arguments aren't justified or to be asked to explain themselves to us.  

They feel like venting with each other and the Shamies who want to join in, and I'd say let them bring it!    

I'm empathic for the Lenny shippers because I know that if I shipped them and not Shamy, this forum would be filled with pages of my own complaints about them, and yes, I would be comparing one couple with another in regards to the attention, quality writing, and screen time presented.  

Where I do draw the line in my debates is in comparing what Shamy does versus Lenny.  Two different couples with four different personalities.    However, if the writer's want us to believe Lenny and Shamy are both end game, than they need to show as much, if not more solidarity in Lenny's relationship, via their own style as they do with Shamy and theirs.  

What is the harm in giving both fan bases something to look forward to each week instead of putting the majority of the focus in just one? What is wrong with alternating Shamy and Lenny plot episodes that end on a positive note that doesn't leave one scratching his head trying to figure out the intent of the plot, or why they even bother watching the show at all?

I am a die hard Shamy, but I see room for improvement in quality in the Lenny and group ensemble storylines that make people care about the entire 20 or so minutes of the show.  I hate to admit that there are times when I rewatch episodes, I fast forward over the Lenny plots because the low blows and insults shared between and about Lenny, who are so devoted and in love with each other, are too irritating for me to want a repeat.    Besides, once you've seen one episode with them behind the kitchen island drinking from their mugs, you've seen them all.  

Thank you for such a considerate post @jenafan . You are a lovely person.

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