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[Spoilers] Discussion: Season 10

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8 hours ago, jenafan said:

I most certainly agree, but if the shoe were on the other foot and you were a Lenny, would you not feel the slightest bit of jealousy over the attention Shamy has gotten in a single season alone?   For example, how many bedroom shots have Shamy had in S10?  All Lenny got was a conversion of Leonard's room into the pink palace, and Penny jokingly willing to choose a candle over her husband to remain behind from the former decor.  They haven't been shown in the bedroom since.   What about kisses?  Heck, even Howardette gets more intimate screen time than Lenny.   

Here is the clincher:  Lenny shippers were on the scene long before the other couples were even a writer's thought.  I feel their disappointment and frustration is justified.  While they are happy for the Shamy shippers, they don't want us, of all people to try to convince them their arguments aren't justified or to be asked to explain themselves to us.  

They feel like venting with each other and the Shamies who want to join in, and I'd say let them bring it!    

I'm empathic for the Lenny shippers because I know that if I shipped them and not Shamy, this forum would be filled with pages of my own complaints about them, and yes, I would be comparing one couple with another in regards to the attention, quality writing, and screen time presented.  

Where I do draw the line in my debates is in comparing what Shamy does versus Lenny.  Two different couples with four different personalities.    However, if the writer's want us to believe Lenny and Shamy are both end game, than they need to show as much, if not more solidarity in Lenny's relationship, via their own style as they do with Shamy and theirs.  

What is the harm in giving both fan bases something to look forward to each week instead of putting the majority of the focus in just one? What is wrong with alternating Shamy and Lenny plot episodes that end on a positive note that doesn't leave one scratching his head trying to figure out the intent of the plot, or why they even bother watching the show at all?

I am a die hard Shamy, but I see room for improvement in quality in the Lenny and group ensemble storylines that make people care about the entire 20 or so minutes of the show.  I hate to admit that there are times when I rewatch episodes, I fast forward over the Lenny plots because the low blows and insults shared between and about Lenny, who are so devoted and in love with each other, are too irritating for me to want a repeat.    Besides, once you've seen one episode with them behind the kitchen island drinking from their mugs, you've seen them all.  

Really lovely post @jenafan, thank you. 

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Funny I skip the Shamy scenes some times lol. Well I Did last episode. I guess I am more invested in Lenny. Have been since the pilot. Where as Shamy was established in Season 4. So I guess I just didd'nt invest in them enough. Lenny like Shamy are end game. So it may not matter how they portray them from this point on. Comparing is pointless of course. Differing Styles of writing for both couples, and different personalities. I Think problem is like said Lenny was the original ship of the series. Well beyond Shelnard :D. When you invest that long. Your bound to get frustrated. In any case the show has 48 episodes remaining, unless they Season 13 god forbid lol. So hopefully they start balancing out the stories better. 

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Reading all those considerate and well thought out posts was the only good thing about my last 24 hours. So thanks.

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Some lennies are Jealous!!! What the fuck. 99.5% screen time given to sheldon. Yes.

Jealous of shamy happiness. Not going to happen as there is nothing to be jealous of. Happy for them they might get engaged but certainly not jealous of a relationship that is 99.9% on Sheldon's terms who calls the shots 99.9% of what happens in the relationship. When they have sex, (3 times now. Twice a b’day gift and now a going away gift.) or when to have baby, or move in together. And one rule for him, telling his girlfriend not to run of with a scientist but then hangs out with one. Tells his girlfriend to hold her breath so he can sleep. Wanting to have a baby with amy for his selfish reasons without considering Amy feeling or first discussing it with her. Yeah jealous of all that one-sided relationship. Oh wait he is a special case. You got me.

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7 minutes ago, Tonstar17 said:

And one rule for him, telling his girlfriend not to run of with a scientist but then hangs out with one. 


 

Yeah. I just don't see why it can't be said he was wrong in what he did and just leave it that. Maybe a Sheldon excuse thread.

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Sheldon did take his own advice. Once he realized that Ramona was interested in the romantic sense he got the heck out of there. 

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2 minutes ago, Jedichic98 said:

Sheldon did take his own advice. Once he realized that Ramona was interested in the romantic sense he got the heck out of there. 

I think the comment was based on he never should have gotten to the once he realized point.

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Okay, some more mulling about the most recent episode, which I'm not posting in the episode thread since it's a longer-running complaint.
I hated that the Penny career plot was a Lenny plot.
Let me explain.
Ever since Season Seven, every time the show has dealt with Penny's career issues, the story has been - at least in part - about what it means for Lenny. Season Seven turned Penny's career issues into a referendum on the Lenny relationship, culminating in the engagement. And while I was happy about the engagement, I would have preferred for it to be untainted by Penny's sadness about an important part of her life. Though, not gonna lie, Lenny's argument about the realism of Penny's aspirations, and Leonard's later support of Penny, were nicely-thought-out and - it goes without saying - well-acted.
In Season Eight and Season Nine, Penny's career, her money, her worries about her job, were treated as one-episode goads to a go-nowhere Lenny fight. This episode has better and more honest communication, but that cannot obscure the fact that, once again, Penny's career is nothing more than a prop to goose Leonard's insecurity, never more to be mentioned until the next time.
There are two big problems with this line of thinking. 
The first - and this really bothers me - is that it takes away Penny's role and agency in her own story. You think you're watching a story about a human being struggling with her career, but it lurches into a story about her husband's feelings. I remember watching Leonard's discussion with Howard and Raj, and thinking 'hang on - so you're feeding Leonard's insecurity, while implicitly allowing that said insecurity is valid?' I wish so much that someone had early and explicitly told Leonard is. Is not. About. You. Stop making this about yourself.' Thankfully - sing hosannas! - Leonard decided to put his own feelings aside. But the story effectively went from being about Penny, to being about Leonard. And I'm sorry, I deeply resent that. I do not like that one character's misery is little more than the catalyst for another's occasional spasms of partial self-awareness.
The second problem is that this approach to storytelling weakens Lenny. Consider that the actual source of conflict for Penny in this episode was.... Leonard. If Penny's career conflicts are always going to be about managing Leonard's feelings, that won't change. Whereas if Penny's career is her own story, she would be allowed to lean on Leonard sometimes for perspective and strength (and, of course, vice versa). Like with the car. Like when Penny bought Leonard a helicopter to cheer him up. Couples do lean on each other sometimes, you know?
Some part of me wonders whether this is sexism. After all, Sheldon's career conundrums are firmly Sheldon stories, with occasional incurses from Shamy. Indeed, the most recent episode was an object lesson in how Sheldon's issue was a Sheldon story with a little Shamy flavour, whereas Penny's issue was a Lenny story.
But no - Bernie's career issue was also a firmly Bernie (or PAmyDette) story. That wasn't about her managing Howard's feelings at all.
So you see, show? It can be done. If you do explore Penny's career again, please please please don't make it so squarely about Leonard's insecurities, or Leonard's abandonment issues, or Leonard's feelings*. Especially if you're not going to resolve either the insecurities or the career dissatisfaction.
* To be clear: of course Penny's partner will have feelings about Penny's life. I'm not saying Leonard doesn't get to have feelings. I'm saying I'd rather that a story supposedly about Penny's life weren't basically about Leonard's feelings.

So are you bascally saying penny shouldn't discuss any job opportunities with her husband and not consider his feelings or why it might be a bad idea. I haven't watched the episode, that's why I'm asking.

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12 minutes ago, Tonstar17 said:


So are you bascally saying penny shouldn't discuss any job opportunities with her husband and not consider his feelings or why it might be a bad idea. I haven't watched the episode, that's why I'm asking.

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Just to quote from myself again:

22 minutes ago, wowbagger said:

* To be clear: of course Penny's partner will have feelings about Penny's life. I'm not saying Leonard doesn't get to have feelings. I'm saying I'd rather that a story supposedly about Penny's life weren't basically about Leonard's feelings.

 

Edited by wowbagger
I was needlessly snippy in my previous post. Sorry, tonstar!
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I read your post. But if the writers are going to write a plot about penny going to work with her ex, then ofcouse it is going to be about leonard feeling insecure. That was the idea, penny's career was just a smokescreen to drive the plot. TBTB had no intention of actually working on her career, as some have said here, they could have ended the plot with them looking for other jobs or them sitting down and trying to find out what penny really wants to do. Instead it was another lame excuse to bring out leonard is insecurities and coming across as not very supportive.


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5 minutes ago, Tonstar17 said:


I read your post. But if the writers are going to write a plot about penny going to work with her ex, then ofcouse it is going to be about leonard feeling insecure. That was the idea, penny's career was just a smokescreen to drive the plot. TBTB had no intention of actually working on her career, as some have said here, they could have ended the plot with them looking for other jobs or them sitting down and trying to find out what penny really wants to do. Instead it was another lame excuse to bring out leonard is insecurities and coming across as not very supportive.


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Bingo. Very much my problem with the plot - that Penny's career was just an excuse for another 'Leonard is insecure' story.

And my apologies for misunderstanding your last question.

Edited by wowbagger
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8 minutes ago, Tonstar17 said:


I read your post. But if the writers are going to write a plot about penny going to work with her ex, then ofcouse it is going to be about leonard feeling insecure. That was the idea, penny's career was just a smokescreen to drive the plot. TBTB had no intention of actually working on her career, as some have said here, they could have ended the plot with them looking for other jobs or them sitting down and trying to find out what penny really wants to do. Instead it was another lame excuse to bring out leonard is insecurities and coming across as not very supportive.


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To me he came across as caring and supportive, he was willing to deal with his greatst weaknesses for her to be happy and knew she should not suffer because of them (kind of like in "The 43 Peculiarity" though he didn't say it outright). However, some didn't get that impression. IMO some of the difference in opinions regarding that point stems from different perceptions of how bad are Leonard's insecurities and views of himself.

Edited by bfm
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@wowbagger that's why I want to see how Amy's doing in Princeton, and I feel we got a glimpse of it in 10x24. Now bear with me:

Even though we know nothing was going to happen really with Sheldon and Ramona —and I'm sure deep down Amy knew too, all she knew was that this hussy is taking advantage of her boyfriend's naiveté and she's about 3000 miles away. I've stated before that's Amy's gotten quite used to the role as "the fixer", and now the long distance presents a level of helplessness. She can't swoop in to save the day or handle the situation. It puts her in a place of vulnerability and I think that terrifies her. Not to mention having to face her deeply rooted fear of solitude by being far away from the only friends she's ever known along with the pressures of having to prove yourself to a new research team. 

Now take all that and add Sheldon showing up at her door to propose to her, and that's why I strongly predict a panic attack at first in 11x01. I really want her to tell Sheldon how hard this has been for her, because this forces her to face her worst fears. *fanfic mode on* then have her embarrassed that Sheldon got to see the more broken side of her, how she knows he relies on her, but she's not always so strong as she wants him to believe. She then looks at him defensively and says "you still wanna marry me?!" then have sheldon take her hand and just say, "quirks and all" and then she wraps her arms around him. *fanfic mode off* (sorry I can't control my shipper heart.) Back to the job thing,

As you said the writers have proven they can do it with Bernie so they can do it here. There's a lot of material to delve into, with Bernie, with Penny, with Amy. Our girls are working girls and there's a story to tell with that that doesn't have to rely on how it makes the men feel. (it can be there, but it shouldn't be the focus) 

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To me he came across as caring and supportive, he was willing to deal with his greatst weaknesses for her to be happy and knew she should not suffer because of them (kind of like in "The 43 Peculiarity" though he didn't say it outright). However, some didn't get that impression. IMO some of the difference in opinions regarding that point stems from different perceptions of how bad are Leonard's insecurities and views of himself.

Like I said, havent seen the episode in question, but talking from past experience of leonard been insecure and what ppls have said here. TPTB alway write leonard as not always or very supportive of her career choices but in the end changes his mind to support her whatever she decides to do.
I agree with him to be wary as some of them have been dumb choices and has been shown that leonard was right in the end. But in this episode, I get why he wasn't very supportive in the beginning that his wife wanting to go work with Zack. It's just recycling old materials with a different plot. Same old same.

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5 minutes ago, Tonstar17 said:


I read your post. But if the writers are going to write a plot about penny going to work with her ex, then ofcouse it is going to be about leonard feeling insecure. That was the idea, penny's career was just a smokescreen to drive the plot. TBTB had no intention of actually working on her career, as some have said here, they could have ended the plot with them looking for other jobs or them sitting down and trying to find out what penny really wants to do. Instead it was another lame excuse to bring out leonard is insecurities and coming across as not very supportive.


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You're being highly critical of an episode you supposedly refuse to watch.

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6 minutes ago, Tonstar17 said:


Like I said, havent seen the episode in question, but talking from past experience of leonard been insecure and what ppls have said here. TPTB alway write leonard as not always or very supportive of her career choices but in the end changes his mind to support her whatever she decides to do.
I agree with him to be wary as some of them have been dumb choices and has been shown that leonard was right in the end. But in this episode, I get why he wasn't very supportive in the beginning that his wife wanting to go work with Zack. It's just recycling old materials with a different plot. Same old same.

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I don't think it was Penny wanting to work with Zack. He offered her a job and Penny brought Leonard back to go on a double date with Zack and his fiancée to discuss it. Penny did not leave Leonard out of the mix. Zack offered when she was out with the girls and they bumped into each other at the bar. The job did seem perfect. It involved sales and restaurant menus something she does know a lot about. I understand to be wary of dumb choices but Leonard's jealousy issues while Lenny have been together have always been unfounded. I can see why you would say Leonard he was right in the end. But was he? She's still working at a job she hates. I do agree that a Penny storyline with no attachments, like Zack, would be better. Especially now since she does have some real job experience.

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You're being highly critical of an episode you supposedly refuse to watch.

Maybe. But I'm going on the TR and what has been said here. It's not rocket science to put the pieces together without watching the said episode.

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8 minutes ago, Chrismo said:

I don't think it was Penny wanting to work with Zack. He offered her a job and Penny brought Leonard back to go on a double date with Zack and his fiancée to discuss it. Penny did not leave Leonard out of the mix. Zack offered when she was out with the girls and they bumped into each other at the bar. The job did seem perfect. It involved sales and restaurant menus something she does know a lot about. I understand to be wary of dumb choices but Leonard's jealousy issues while Lenny have been together have always been unfounded. I can see why you would say Leonard he was right in the end. But was he? She's still working at a job she hates. I do agree that a Penny storyline with no attachments, like Zack, would be better. Especially now since she does have some real job experience.

No, Zach offered Penny the job when she was with Leonard, they didn't speak about it when they first met at the bar.

Edited by mirs1
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9 minutes ago, Cloud Strife said:

You're being highly critical of an episode you supposedly refuse to watch.

I actually agree. Other people's opinions and taping reports aren't the same as watching it

1 minute ago, mirs1 said:

No, Zach offered Penny the job when she was with Leonard, they didn't speak about it when they first met.

I stand corrected. You actually helped my argument.

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1 hour ago, bfm said:

I agree with you on some parts and disagree in others (e.g., I think they made it clear that the engagement wasn't about her career dissatifaction and is was important for Leonard to make that clear. Also, in the past she had some acting stuff that didn't spark focus on Leonard, but that was long time ago...).

I do agree that it should have been more focused on Penny. I think the major problem, which our knowledge of makes us look at it this way, is that it doesn't have a continuation, at least not this season. I think it would have been so much better if in the end of the episode Penny decided to start searching for a new job, figuring what she wants before and in the process, with Leonard's help and support (we have seen he has a lot of these to give her). Then have them doing that in the following episodes. But no, they chose to jusy leave it like they always do. Why? Well my guess is because they simply don't care. They don't care about neither Penny nor Leonard nor Lenny. They decided to give them an episode close to the finale, IMO to pay what they percieve as mandatory fee. And since that is the little time they were willing to dedicate to them they took it to do something with their relationship, to show them communicating because they have gone too far with the recurrent fighting and thought that that would make things seem a little better to the viewers. IMO, they didn't really mean or care about doing something for Penny, at least not now (and I'm not holding my breath for next year, it has been too long with nothing).

I have a lot of sympathy with this. And indeed my disgruntlement is in large part because I know there will be no follow-through. But even in the context of the episode, nobody told Leonard - and Leonard didn't say himself - that he was making Penny's problems about himself. Even if the episode had ended with Penny being offered another role at her existing company that was more to her liking, the central problem remains that the show seems to think that the only, or most, interesting thing about Penny's career is what it means for Leonard or Lenny. And - um - @veejay, do you have that .gif of Penny saying '....wow'?

Edited by wowbagger
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What's interesting about the Lenny storyline was IMO you could ask 100 people who side your on and I think it would be split. When Penny talked to Bernadette she basically took Leonard's POV and when Leonard talked to Howard( raj was useless) he took Penny's POV.

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