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[Spoilers] Discussion: Season 10


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41 minutes ago, Tonstar17 said:


I'm not leonard. The minutes she moved to another continent, I would have moved on. Comparing kissing only that you stopped and fucking someone that is not your partner in the same category is just wrong. They are not the same. You are more likely to forgive the kissing.

How do you know she wasn't texting her ex?

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37 minutes ago, Stephen Hawking said:

How do you know she was?

 

Do you mean other than Raj telling Leonard she did?

Sorry, actually, they were Skyping. 

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2 minutes ago, Tonstar17 said:


Yes it was. He just didn't figure it out. Its like when a woman says she wants a break. You know it over and they are trying to ease the blow. If you are not experienced in relationships like leonard back then. It's easier to hold unto hope and think it's still on.

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Why would Leonard have figured it was over?  They were still trying to carry on the relationship long distance over Skype?  

It wasn't until Leonard told Priya about his indiscretion, that she told him of hers.

Even then, Priya wanted to use what Leonard did as an excuse to achieve his forgiveness, though she was more wrong than him.

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The fact remains even

15 minutes ago, Tonstar17 said:


Yes it was. He just didn't figure it out. Its like when a woman says she wants a break. You know it over and they are trying to ease the blow. If you are not experienced in relationships like leonard back then. It's easier to hold unto hope and think it's still on.

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So that makes it alright then. Cause he didn't know. Right... at the end of the day. He did the right thing, most men would have slept with her. But leonard doesn't even get points for doing the right thing in the end.

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He should have done nothing. Is a criminal going to get credit for only stealing $100 dollars when he could of stole $10,000. The fact is he didn't know Priya cheated on him until after he told Priya about Alice.

2 minutes ago, Tensor said:

 

 

 

Do you mean other than Raj telling Leonard she did?

But obviously he didn't listen to Raj

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Just now, Chrismo said:

But obviously he didn't listen to Raj

I didn't claim that, just pointing out how Tonstar knew Leonard knew about Priya and Sanjay communicating. 

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3 hours ago, jenafan said:

I can't remember what my arguments were when all this originally happened.  So, I apologize if there is a contradiction between what I felt then in the moment and what I feel now after reading so much commentary on the matter.

It seems Leonard had no intention of flirting or hooking up with another woman while he was away from Penny.  However, at some point during a party, he started drinking, which lowered his inhibitions.  Before you know it, he was roughly kissing Mandy.   His reference inferred "we/they" kissed, not she kissed "me/him".  (Correct me if I'm wrong.)   The moment he realized what happened, by his own admission, he stopped it.   He walked away and carried the guilt for his actions two years.    While we did not see the events, we can put the pieces together based on Leonard's reveal to Penny.

By definition, cheating is an intent to do something physically with someone else that is supposed to be exclusive to your partner.   Depending on the couple, this could take a variety of forms.   Not to get too far off the subject of Leonard, but to some couples perhaps swimming with someone of the opposite sex is cheating, and Sheldon would fall into that category by what he did.  However, as I don't agree with this mentality, I will digress on the matter.   Couples have to decide for themselves what actions constitute unfaithfulness, but in the area of open-mouth kissing, I think we can agree that this is definitely an area that should be limited to one's partner.

Did Leonard physically cheat?  Yes, he did.   

Leonard cheated, but to be labeled as a cheater is extreme, IMO.    Leonard did not intend to hurt Penny, however he recognized his actions as unpardonable with Penny deserving to know what he did before she married him.  Apparently he figured that this mistake was something he couldn't fix by himself by ignoring it and hoping it will go away, but something that had to be fixed together with Penny, with the hope she was willing to forgive him.

Did Penny have a right to know?  It depends on perspective.   Some feel no harm was done, and what she didn't know wouldn't hurt her.  Leonard waited too long to come clean so why bother just before the most important step in their lives.   Why hurt Penny now?   However, Leonard's conscience couldn't let it go.  He loved Penny enough to reveal his mistake knowing it would hurt her and let her decide if she still wanted to marry him.

Was Penny right to forgive him?  Due to Leonard recognizing his unfaithfulness and no longer wanting to keep anything from the woman he loves so he can put the past behind him, I think so.

In no way am I justifying Leonard's actions.  However, it is important to look at the context of what happened and weigh in the sincerity of Leonard's desire to make amends with Penny before they exchanged rings.    He got a second chance and hopefully will not put himself in the position to make the same mistake again.

Penny had right to know and he  should have told her right away, but my point is if he didn't then doing it 2 years later add distrust because he is able to keep things from her and amplify the fact because 2 years later he is still feeling guilty. I understand his fear to lose her in the moment and the need to begin the marriage with a clean slate later, I do, but one drunken kiss  being an isolated fact, in a specific circumstances that are  not going to be repeated, if I were penny I'd prefer not to know 2 years later, right before my wedding because I wouldn't so forgiving, not just  for the kiss itself but for keeping it from me for so long. 

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Why would Leonard have figured it was over?  They were still trying to carry on the relationship long distance over Skype?  
It wasn't until Leonard told Priya about his indiscretion, that she told him of hers.
Even then, Priya wanted to use what Leonard did as an excuse to achieve his forgiveness, though she was more wrong than him.

Because like I said she moved to India and she basically told leonard he can't come with her. (To me over) Yes they were skyping and both pretending and lying to each other. Until leonard told her about the kiss. That's what I took from the episode. Why was she carrying on with a relationship with leonard if she was sleeping or back with her ex? What was her game plan, did she want to have her cake and eat it? We will never know. Inconsistency in plots by tptb as usual.

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1 hour ago, Stephen Hawking said:

You know, I struggle to see Penny's moral high ground, given that she suggested to Leonard, that he be unfaithful to Priya.

I guess it depends on if she was just listing off Leonard's options or if she was actually encouraging and condoning the behavior. 

I don't think Penny cared about moral right or wrong.  She hated Priya and wanted her out of Leonard's life and for him to get over her so he could move on.

Edited by jenafan

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Look guys I don't think we will ever reach an agreement about the boat kids because we haven never seen it and probably never will. I do feel that it is unfair to make accusations and label when things are uncertain. IMO, one deserves the benefit of doubt. 

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3 minutes ago, Tonstar17 said:


Because like I said she moved to India and she basically told leonard he can't come with her. (To me over) Yes they were skyping and both pretending and lying to each other. Until leonard told her about the kiss. That's what I took from the episode. Why was she carrying on with a relationship with leonard if she was sleeping or back with her ex? What was her game plan, did she want to have her cake and eat it? We will never know. Inconsistency in plots by tptb as usual.

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I'll play the devil's advocate. Priya could be thinking the same thing about Leonard's ex. When they were together Priya pointed out she was uncomfortable that Leonard was still hanging around Penny. again your interpretation I can understand but the reality is they never officially broke up. I still remember the episode when they had the skype sex.

4 minutes ago, Tonstar17 said:


Nope. But you get less time in jail if any, if you stole $100.

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My point is it still was wrong. less wrong but still wrong.

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My point is it still was wrong. less wrong but still wrong.

Im not saying, it wasnt wrong. They both were. Blaming just leonard is my beef. Did Leonard & Stephanie officially breakup? Must have missed that episode.

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1 minute ago, Tonstar17 said:


Im not saying, it wasnt wrong. They both were. Blaming just leonard is my beef. Did Leonard & Stephanie officially breakup? Must have missed that episode.

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But Priya isn't on the show anymore. Just like nobody is blaming Mandy for the same reason.

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But Priya isn't on the show anymore. Just like nobody is blaming Mandy for the same reason.

Exactly. Double standard. Me think. Leonard gets all the blame. Why don't we just lock him up for his crime against humanity and throw away the keys.

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22 minutes ago, Tonstar17 said:


Nope. But you get less time in jail if any, if you stole $100.

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Hence the reason Leonard was forgiven with some angst at the beginning of his marriage, while Priya got the boot.

Leonard realized both times he made a mistake.  Both times he tried to make amends.  Both times he paid a price.  

While I fault him for very poor judgement resulting from an active drive and his girlfriends being long distance,  I don't think he deserves to be labeled a cheataholic.  What it really is, is pitiful weakness.

Whether to forgive and trust Leonard was really up to Penny.  I'm glad she gave him and their marriage a chance.  I just hope Leonard doesn't blow it the next time there is considerable physical distance between them and an attractive woman taking an interest in him catches his fancy.

Edited by jenafan
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On 4/29/2017 at 3:21 PM, Cloud Strife said:

Am I the only one who doesn't give a shit when these characters make fun of each other?

NO you are not. It's a comedy. That's what happens in comedies. Comedies should not be taken seriously the way I sometimes see this one taken. I don't understand it.

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Hence the reason Leonard was forgiven with some angst at the beginning of his marriage, while Priya got the boot.
Leonard realized both times he made a mistake.  Both times he tried to make amends.  Both times he paid a price.  
While I fault him for very poor judgement resulting from an active drive and his girlfriends being long distance,  I don't think he deserves to be labeled a cheataholic.  What it really is, is pitiful weakness.
Whether to forgive and trust Leonard was really up to Penny.  I'm glad she gave him and their marriage a chance.  I just hope Leonard doesn't blow it the next time they're is considerable physical distance between them and an attractive woman taking an interest in him catches his fancy.

I'm afraid I can't guarantee Leonard wouldn't stray again. :) Once a cheater always a cheater. Icon_rolleyes. Please@jenafan, just know this is not directed at you.

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8 minutes ago, bfm said:

Look guys I don't think we will ever reach an agreement about the boat kids because we haven never seen it and probably never will. I do feel that it is unfair to make accusations and label when things are uncertain. IMO, one deserves the benefit of doubt. What good does it do you to label him as a cheater? 

Yes, say we all agree he is a cheater. Then what? A boycott?

It's "whataboutism". People have motives for that, beyond trolling. Goodness knows it's easy to beat up Sheldon because that's  how he is built. Leonard had been something heroic in the early days, but it's funnier to give him  a weakness and it gave them drama. The show started as a sex comedy anyway. Why the surprise? In a liberal democracy some sex based farce skates past most people most of the time. The show has been careful to calibrate the injuries as highly contingent and mostly forgivable. Nobody got knocked up or even laid. Teenage stuff, really. (Pre-teen?)

I still think it was a huge error to go this "nuclear" on the character but the show wanted a big and dramatic hook to bring people back for the next season.

But feel free to beat up Leonard. It's therapeutic.

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18 minutes ago, Tonstar17 said:


I'm afraid I can't guarantee Leonard wouldn't stray again. :) Once a cheater always a cheater. Icon_rolleyes. Please@jenafan, just know this is not directed at you.

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I hate to say it, but I agree with you.  That is why I keep saying "I hope." 

That is why as much as I hate the boat kiss storyline was even invented, if one digs deep enough, you can find evidence to support how it could have and did happen. 

Another example:

Leonard took advantage of Stephanie's disinterest in Howard by accepting her advances on him.  He felt bad, but it didn't stop him.  Just another page on how his judgement falters and morals go out the window sometimes.   Now he did nothing wrong here except to disregard his friend's feelings for his own selfish gain, even continuing to sleep with Stephanie long after he knew he wanted to end the relationship.

Leonard is loyal, but he is also weak where physical intimacy is concerned, or so it seems.  He slept with an older woman, not for the college grant but because she tempted him with her talk about being a good lover.  The grant was just the consequence.

Edited by jenafan
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4 hours ago, Judith said:

I consider what Leonard did cheating and here's why: the writers made sure to have him be drunk on the boat. Why would that be? Because they needed a mitigating factor for the fact that he didn't stop it immediately. Alcohol doesn't make you do things you otherwise wouldn't want to do. It lowers your inhibitions to the point where you won't be able to stop yourself from doing things you already wanted when sober. Not immediately, anyway. So, we know that Leonard likes to feel desirable by other women even if he won't do anything about it because he's with Penny. He probably already thought that Mandy was attractive and/or while they were both drunk, she kissed him, he liked it and of course didn't stop it immediately because of the alcohol so when he did stop it, he'd already done enough to feel guilty about. The way he talked to Penny about it also points to consenting participation. The fact that we didn't see it, the booz, Mandy doing the rounds, are mitigating factors to take some of the blame away from Leonard, which means there's a reason to blame him in the first place.

Wow. 

 

As for when he talked to Penny about it, I didn't get 'consenting participation' at all. Far from it. I got 'drunk', 'seasick' and 'I stopped it'. 

 

 

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28 minutes ago, Die Zimtzicke said:

This thread reminds me so much of something Sara Michelle Geller once said to a fan that was questioning her about something two characters on Buffy did. She listened patiently to their whole rant and then said, "You do know they're not real, don't you?" That is something that really needs to be remembered more than it is.

My current weird hang up is that I have come to see Sheldon and Leonard as representatives of conservatism and liberalism. And those are real. Popular culture has an impact. The show might be just a reflection of the world but it is messaging. And Sheldon keeps winning over Leonard.

Crazy I know. Fevered even, but we are at a fringe here. Hehe.

Edit. And I feel Sheldon could adjust to the  Republic of Gilead. Um... lol

Edited by Nogravitasatall
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I hate to say it, but I agree with you.  That is why I keep saying "I hope." 
That is why as much as I hate the boat kiss storyline was even invented, if one digs deep enough, you can find evidence to support how it could have and did happen. 
Another example:
Leonard took advantage of Stephanie's disinterest in Howard by accepting her advances on him.  He felt bad, but it didn't stop him.  Just another page on how his judgement falters and morals go out the window sometimes.   Now he did nothing wrong here except to disregard his friend's feelings for his own selfish gain, even continuing to sleep with Stephanie long after he knew he wanted to end the relationship.
Leonard is loyal, but he is also weak where sex is concerned, or so it seems.

You can't knock the guy for having a high sex drive and sometimes follows his desires, and when lonely, a need for sexual contact to feel satisfied, I think now he is married and more mature, he will not go there But it's tptb I don't trust not to go there again. With Stephanie it was stated Howard had no chance and leonard even asked if she liked Howard which the answer was nope, so nothing wrong there to me. Back then leonard was just like most twentysomething guys, get as much sex as possible and probably looked at sex as a science project, but now as he has gotten older it has become less of an obsession to him. But my worry is tptb regressing leonard to create drama for lenny.

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You are right.  For the record, I don't mean to come across as bashing Leonard. I know it seems that way.    I'm just trying to find justification for the boat story because the whole thing stinks. 

He has Penny.  He won't stray again.

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My current weird hang up is that I have come to see Sheldon and Leonard as representatives of conservatism and liberalism. And those are real. Popular culture has an impact. The show might be just a reflection of the world but it is messaging. And Sheldon keeps winning over Leonard.
Crazy I know. Fevered even, but we are at a fringe here. Hehe.
Edit. And I feel Sheldon could adjust to the  Republic of Gilead. Um... lol

Sheldon will always win. It's never his fault or he doesn't know what he is doing. Even when he goes off the deep end with his aggressive tendencies to be a complete idiot.

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You are right.  For the record, I don't mean to come across as bashing Leonard. I know it seems that way.    I'm just trying to find justification for the boat story because the whole thing stinks. 
He has Penny.  He won't stray again.

I dont see you as bashing leonard. But seeing the flaws in his personality and an honest opinion of him and not making excuses for some of his behaviours

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3 hours ago, jenafan said:

You are right.  For the record, I don't mean to come across as bashing Leonard. I know it seems that way.    I'm just trying to find justification for the boat story because the whole thing stinks. 

He has Penny.  He won't stray again.

I generally just try to forget the dumb boat kiss like I block out the marriage to Zack and slip with Raj. 

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13 hours ago, serena_1995 said:

 

I thought it was pretty clear and straightforward . Leonard cheated, Penny forgave him. Where is the doubt ?

Leonard said "there was kissing".  He didn't deny participating and  it was a mutual kiss.  He was a willing participant and he ultimately stopped it. But he participated nonetheless, and therefore cheated. Penny forgave him.  I think Penny deserved to have her feelings of anger explored a bit more. Not that I'm advocating them bringing it up again. 

Again, it is not clear and straightforward. I wish it was , but it wasn't. I've seen the episode as well, and IMO there was no intent on Leonard's part. The fact that he stopped it demonstrates there was no intent. The fact that he participated is irrelevant ( I believe he was NOT a willing participant). On top of all of that, it was not shown, so you cannot draw the conclusions you are drawing. The only thing we know for sure, because we saw it in the show was that Penny forgave him.

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