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[Spoilers] Discussion: Season 10

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Well I have no problem with Sheldon this time around. He diddn't make it about himself and his BS lol. He made it about Lenny. He diddn't derail their moment this time. I would of prefered if Sheldon just sat their and said nothing the whole time, but come on we all knew that was never going to happen hahaha, were talking about Sheldon here. Casuals well love that, hard core fans maybe not so much. 

Edited by 3ku11
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Unfortunately for me tptb seem to think a scene without sheldon is like a day without sunshine

Sent from my SM-G920P using Tapatalk

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18 minutes ago, luminous said:

 

This is actually so wonderful...to all the guest stars...welcome to my house, Stage 25.  The hugs down the line from the the creatives.  So amazing that we have Alex sharing these kind of moments with us.

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Guest

Sexy couple, indeed. So cool that Kaley has it framed already. She's truly the shipper queen.

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1 hour ago, camelliayao said:

Don't know where to post this but I just want to say I think the writers go a little too far on Sheldon's personality. He used to say inappropriate things because he didn't know better. Nowadays it leaves me the impression that a lot of the times Sheldon knows his words would be insulting or make other people uncomfortable, but he says them anyway. Because saying whatever he wants feels good, and because he's Sheldon, people are not allowed to be mad at him. For example, some of the things he said to his mom and Alfred in the premiere episode, IMO he's well aware he shouldn't say them. Another example would be when in the car, he was unhappy because Amy pointed out the truth, a truth he should know and he probably already knew, so he said rude things to Amy. That's really not cool. It's like the writers telling us treating your girlfriend/friends with little respect when you're in a bad mood is Ok, as long as you are, well, Sheldon. It used to be Ok because we all know Sheldon didn't do it on purpose. 

 

Tbh I prefer him this way.The whole "I am rude but innocent" is more annoying for me.I don't think they went to far,he was always like that in my eyes.Maybe,back then he didn't understand half the wrong things he did,but the other half was there and was done on purpose.He is not a bad person but he is a jerk and at least now he seems much more aware of that  (by the manner of which he acts and talks-btw clever acting by JP for him to change the character like this).I don't see why he should change,jerks exist irl too!But what I don't understand though,is how his friends (Lenny) haven't realised he's changed a lot and he is simply manipulating and insulting them for the fun of it now.

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Saw nothing wrong with Sheldon's short speech it was genuine, sincere and from the heart and you could tell that Leonard and Penny appreciated those sentiments.

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10 minutes ago, DoctorWhat said:

Tbh I prefer him this way.The whole "I am rude but innocent" is more annoying for me.I don't think they went to far,he was always like that in my eyes.Maybe,back then he didn't understand half the wrong things he did,but the other half was there and was done on purpose.He is not a bad person but he is a jerk and at least now he seems much more aware of that  (by the manner of which he acts and talks-btw clever acting by JP for him to change the character like this).I don't see why he should change,jerks exist irl too!But what I don't understand though,is how his friends (Lenny) haven't realised he's changed a lot and he is simply manipulating and insulting them for the fun of it now.

This is exactly why I find this Sheldon more unpleasant. Because nowadays the writers are excusing and justifying Sheldon's behavior by letting Lenny and Amy tell us how much Sheldon has changed and how much they appreciate&love Sheldon. If Sheldon is still like his old self which is inappropriate yet innocent , I can understand them. But now he's not innocent. He's just plain rude. 

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5 minutes ago, camelliayao said:

This is exactly why I find this Sheldon more unpleasant. Because nowadays the writers are excusing and justifying Sheldon's behavior by letting Lenny and Amy tell us how much Sheldon has changed and how much they appreciate&love Sheldon. If Sheldon is still like his old self which is inappropriate yet innocent , I can understand them. But now he's not innocent. He's just plain rude. 

But nobody is telling him that they find his rude comments charming. In fact the whole episode through everybody is scolding him for his rude comments. This is literally the opposite of the show saying that this is okay in any way. Sheldon gets called out plenty for his rudeness - whether intentional or not.

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33 minutes ago, April said:

But nobody is telling him that they find his rude comments charming. In fact the whole episode through everybody is scolding him for his rude comments. This is literally the opposite of the show saying that this is okay in any way. Sheldon gets called out plenty for his rudeness - whether intentional or not.

I disagree. If the writers really wanted to say this is not Okay, they would've done what they did in 913, where he has to apologize wholeheartedly because everybody's mad at him. In this episode he either doesn't apologize for his behavior or he apologizes because he has to (like when his mother makes him). The fact that the writers add the "touching" moment where Sheldon interupts Lenny's wedding and makes his speech and the scene in the end where Penny kind of says she's used to and starts to like Sheldon's "weirdness" still feel like them justifying Sheldon. Because those moments where everybody is scolding him are not made memorable. But his speech is sure to be made one of the highlights of the episode intentionally by the writers.

It's like the writers were saying "yes Sheldon's rude, but he's also cute, more importantly he's SHELDON! See the little speech he made? Didn't that make you aww? (No it only made me ugh). So whatever he does, it's Okay. People still love him. Let's forget about all the insulting comments he made".

Let me put it this way. I think for Amy and Lenny's love for Sheldon and them saying Sheldon has changed a lot to be logical and not far-fetched, the writers need to show us constant growth and behavior changes of Sheldon. Giving him a few "aww" moments occasionally is not enough.

Edited by camelliayao
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27 minutes ago, camelliayao said:

I disagree. If the writers really wants to say this is not Okay, they would do what they did in 913, where he has to apologize wholeheartedly because everybody's mad at him. In this episode he either doesn't apologize for his behavior or he apologizes because he has to (like when his mother makes him). The fact that the writers add the "touching" moment where Sheldon interupts Lenny's wedding and makes his speech and the scene in the end where Penny kind of says she's used to and starts to like Sheldon's "weirdness" still feel like them justifying Sheldon. Because those moments where everybody is scolding him are not made memorable. But his speech is sure to be made one of the highlights of the episode intentionally by the writers.

It's like the writers were saying "yes Sheldon's rude, but he's also cute, more importantly he's SHELDON! See the little speech he made? Didn't that make you aww? (No it only made me ugh). So whatever he does, it's Okay. People still love him. Let's forget about all the insulting comments he made".

Let me put it this way. I think for Amy and Lenny's love for Sheldon and them saying Sheldon has changed a lot to be logical and not far-fetched, the writers need to show us constant growth and behavior changes of Sheldon. Give him a few "aww" moments occasionally is not enough.

I just disagree with that. You can like a character or person and still not approve of everything they say and do, and this is something they do constantly with Sheldon. He has his good sides and his bad ones just like the others. And yes, his "gimmick" is that he's usually the one saying a lot of outrageous things. But for the most part he doesn't get away with it because someone will call him out on it. Yes, he has grown a lot over the years but I think it's unrealistic to expect that he's behaving perfectly all the time now. He's clearly upset about the idea of his mother hooking up with Leonard's dad. It's a silly reaction from him and results in some really rude behaviour and other characters let him know that this is not okay. Not every episode can have a big Sheldon apology tour. Everybody has a bad day sometimes for all sorts of stupid reasons, it's alright with me. ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

Edited by April
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27 minutes ago, April said:

I just disagree with that. You can like a character or person and still not approve of everything they say and do, and this is something they do constantly with Sheldon. He has his good sides and his bad ones just like the others. And yes, his "gimmick" is that he's usually the one saying a lot of outrageous things. But for the most part he doesn't get away with it because someone will call him out on it. Yes, he has grown a lot over the years but I think it's unrealistic to expect that he's behaving perfectly all the time now. He's clearly upset about the idea of his mother hooking up with Leonard's dad. It's a silly reaction from him and results in some really rude behaviour and other characters let him know that this is not okay. Not every episode can have a big Sheldon apology tour. Everybody has a bad day sometimes for all sorts of stupid reasons, it's alright with me. ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

Nobody is expecting him to behave perfectly all the time. But it seems to me he behaves badly all the time except for those "aww" moments. Everybody has a bad day but not everybody takes his anger on others and still gets excused.

And let me repeat this: Those moments where everybody is scolding Sheldon are not made memorable. But his speech is sure to be made one of the highlights of the episode intentionally by the writers.

Anyway, I think people have different levels of tolarence. I sure can't stand some of Sheldon's behaviors these days. If I were Amy, I would tell Sheldon to get the hell out of my car. Is that too much? Maybe I guess, but hey, everybody has a bad day sometimes. My boyfriend being rude to me just made my day bad. But I'm sure I'm the minority here. Let's just agree to disagree.

Edited by camelliayao
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1 hour ago, camelliayao said:

Anyway, I think people have different levels of tolarence. I sure can't stand some of Sheldon's behaviors these days. If I were Amy, I would tell Sheldon to get the hell out of my car. Is that too much? Maybe I guess, but everybody has a bad day sometimes. But I'm sure I'm the minority here. 

I think in this episode Sheldon made some stunningly offensive comments, sure. If he was reprimanded, immediately after the incident would get glossed right over as they moved onto something else, because there was just a lot to pack into the episode and they didn't have a lot of time for "people being outraged at sh*t Sheldon says." And I do think he had a few offensive lines that no one directly took issue with. The line about wrinkled up old bags of flesh, something along those lines, and the grossness of the idea of them having sex because they are too old, was really incredibly cruel and vicious. And all people did was drop their jaw or roll their eyes, but he didn't get any comeuppance because he was in the middle of pledging his love to Leonard while Leonard was in the midst of his vow renewal ceremony. (Take heart, Shelnard shippers.)

So I don't think that Sheldon actually got reprimanded for everything he was pulling in this episode, I also think the stuff he pulled was ludicrious and simply....I don't know, it's a different and meaner flavor than it used to be. But it's hard really getting into the difference. It's like the show used to be chocolate ice cream, and now it's chocolate mint with a whirl of chocolate chips, and it definitely tastes different but you know you're going to run into a bunch of people screaming "but it's still chocolate!" and treat you like you're splitting hairs so what's the point?

And the thing is....Sheldon has been both growing up and getting meaner and getting more childish as the seasons go by, so it's hard to tell the difference in the taste of the flavor anymore, right? You can still put incredibly insulting and mean things in his mouth and those who love him will let him get away with it, and those who hate him will continue to peg him as a jackass. Not going to change how people feel about him now. 

Besides, a part of it is also that people around him are written as letting him get away with it, and that's just a trope of the sitcom world. Will & Grace is a good example of a show where you really have to wonder why Will and Grace don't clobber Jack and Karen to death for the insulting things they say, or on HIMYM there were times that Lily was truly disgusted by the way Barney treated women, but she would relent because in sitcom world you cannot break up the gang or stop on the slutty sex jokes, even if the character took a woman camping to have sex with her and then abandoned her in the wildness with no car to be attacked by wild cougars. Other characters might gape or snort or roll their eyes, but they are never going to take any concrete, justifiable, normal human action like sever relationships. You can't really do that in sitcoms, because then obviously the family-like dynamics and relationships between your main characters fall apart and you have no show. You have no show without these people interacting, and at a certain point, like when a show has gone on as long as TBBT, I'm not necessarily sure that they care about it making sense anymore. Everyone has gotten so beaten down by Sheldon's antics, and someone on the show needs to be able to make those brutal (but supposedly funny) lines work. So. You know. You get your Sheldons and your Karens and your Barneys, and over the years they go from amusing and beloved characters to some other level of.....something. Still chocolate, but you know they've mixed nuts or honey or something else in there that's making it taste funny. (Or not so funny, as the case maybe.) Sometimes what looks like straight up Flanderization looks like actual character growth to another.

If you have to, you can always course correct an episode or so later. You go from Sheldon's over-the-top behavior here to the fact he knows he's controlling and is going to cede some of that control to Amy to make their living experiment work, and you don't know where this guy showed up from but it still tastes something like chocolate. Or maybe Monica's "mocklate" at this point but who knows after so long of the flavor sliding around on you.

 

Edited by Lionne
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When it comes to TV shows in general, you just have to realize that most of the time, characters don't act or react like people would in real life. Writers will always write characters in whichever way they want as long as it serves the story they want to tell. You rarely come across TV shows where plots are character driven. To the masses, Sheldon's insults - intentional or not - are "funny". If you just watch this show for the sake of being entertained and then don't think about it until the next episode, then I guess it works. If you're more invested in these characters and actually start analyzing them? That's when it stops being funny. At least to me.

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I think in this episode Sheldon made some stunningly offensive comments, sure. If he was reprimanded, immediately after the incident would get glossed right over as they moved onto something else, because there was just a lot to pack into the episode and they didn't have a lot of time for "people being outraged at sh*t Sheldon says." And I do think he had a few offensive lines that no one directly took issue with. The line about wrinkled up old bags of flesh, something along those lines, and the grossness of the idea of them having sex because they are too old, was really incredibly cruel and vicious. And all people did was drop their jaw or roll their eyes, but he didn't get any comeuppance because he was in the middle of pledging his love to Leonard while Leonard was in the midst of his vow renewal ceremony. (Take heart, Shelnard shippers.)
So I don't think that Sheldon actually got reprimanded for everything he was pulling in this episode, I also think the stuff he pulled was ludicrious and simply....I don't know, it's a different and meaner flavor than it used to be. But it's hard really getting into the difference. It's like the show used to be chocolate ice cream, and now it's chocolate mint with a whirl of chocolate chips, and it definitely tastes different but you know you're going to run into a bunch of people screaming "but it's still chocolate!" and treat you like you're splitting hairs so what's the point?
And the thing is....Sheldon has been both growing up and getting meaner and getting more childish as the seasons go by, so it's hard to tell the difference in the taste of the flavor anymore, right? You can still put incredibly insulting and mean things in his mouth and those who love him will let him get away with it, and those who hate him will continue to peg him as a jackass. Not going to change how people feel about him now. 
Besides, a part of it is also that people around him are written as letting him get away with it, and that's just a trope of the sitcom world. Will & Grace is a good example of a show where you really have to wonder why Will and Grace don't clobber Jack and Karen to death for the insulting things they say, or on HIMYM there were times that Lily was truly disgusted by the way Barney treated women, but she would relent because in sitcom world you cannot break up the gang or stop on the slutty sex jokes, even if the character took a woman camping to have sex with her and then abandoned her in the wildness with no car to be attacked by wild cougars. Other characters might gape or snort or roll their eyes, but they are never going to take any concrete, justifiable, normal human action like sever relationships. You can't really do that in sitcoms, because then obviously the family-like dynamics and relationships between your main characters fall apart and you have no show. You have no show without these people interacting, and at a certain point, like when a show has gone on as long as TBBT, I'm not necessarily sure that they care about it making sense anymore. Everyone has gotten so beaten down by Sheldon's antics, and someone on the show needs to be able to make those brutal (but supposedly funny) lines work. So. You know. You get your Sheldons and your Karens and your Barneys, and over the years they go from amusing and beloved characters to some other level of.....something. Still chocolate, but you know they've mixing nuts or honey or something else in there that's making it taste funny. (Or not so funny, as the case maybe.)
If you have to, you can always course correct an episode or so later. You go from Sheldon's over-the-top behavior here to the fact he knows he's controlling and is going to cede some of that control to Amy to make their living experiment work, and you don't know where this guy showed up from but it still tastes something like chocolate. Or maybe Monica's "mocklate" at this point but who knows after so long of the flavor sliding around on you.
 

So very well said Lionne! Multiple likes & loves for this!
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There was nothing wrong with the timing from what I saw, if Leonard or Penny were saying some type of vows and were cut off mid-flow then those annoyed with it would have a point. Alfred and Beverely had chimed in and it was clear that the ceremony was about to end so it was perfect timing from Sheldon.

And there was nothing wrong with what he said, Lenny clearly appreciated it a lot more than some of us.

Seems like people are annoyed by Sheldon (which is fair enough I find some characters on the show annoying sometimes) so when he speaks even if its something pretty nice, or complimentary he still gets called up on it. I think that's a tad unfair in this case even if Sheldon isn't your favorite character, again a view which anyone is perfectly entitled to.

Edited by Jonny
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18 minutes ago, Lionne said:

. You go from Sheldon's over-the-top behavior here to the fact he knows he's controlling and is going to cede some of that control to Amy to make their living experiment work, and you don't know where this guy showed up from but it still tastes something like chocolate. Or maybe Monica's "mocklate" at this point but who knows after so long of the flavor sliding around on you.

 

I think that's the issue. Sheldon (and Amy and to a large degree Penny) aren't coherent characters anymore, so much as plot devices to deliver whatever gags the writing team du jour find funniest. Do the writers think it's hilarious for Sheldon to have the emotional maturity of a toddler (and a spectacularly self-centred one at that) with the vocabulary of an adult? In addition, do the writers think it is fascinating but icky to think of people over the age of thirty having sex? And moreover that there is something weird/titillating/who even knows about Leonard and Sheldon being *gasp* brothers?

Then we get Sheldon throwing his toys out of the pram at the concept of his mother's sexuality (a concept to which he had been graphically reintroduced way back in the mists of Season Seven). Oh, and Sheldon also freaking out about Leonard being his brother. The man with whom he lives and whom he is so reluctant to let go. This is the guy whose potential involvement in his life Sheldon is so exercised about.

[And here's the thing: there is the kernel of an idea here about Sheldon's need to control everything and the need to let go. Which, if anything, would have been resolved with Sheldon butting the fuck out of his friends' moment, or butting in to say 'I have had an epiphany. I am serving you with notice of termination of the Roommate Agreement. Go live your lives. I have to stop trying to micromanage every aspect of my life.' It would have been awkward and clunky, but it would have built to something. But God help us all, the writing team for this episode is only interested in tittering about Sheldon's rudeness and The Sex Lives of the Ancients.]*

If you have a writing team interested in charting Sheldon's control issues and his maturity, you'll have Sheldon articulately dissect his own need to control, and consciously ceding control to the woman he loves...whom, a bare three episodes before, he had no trouble disrespecting vocally- and unrepentantly- in front of his mother. 

And I'm sorry, when you are basically at the mercy of an authorial preference regarding the character on an episode-by-episode basis, this is an issue. This isn't 'Oh, people can surprise you'. This is The Strange Case of Dr Jekyll and Mr Hyde.

*Not that I think either Mary or Alfred is ancient. But clearly someone in the writing team does, or thinks that Sheldon should. Because he is a toddler. That day. 

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8 minutes ago, Lionne said:

Sheldon wasn't in hot water with Leonard or Penny, and the vow renewal was about them, so why his character felt the impetus to declare his love for his special person, Leonard (and Penny was there too, so what the hell), in the middle of that moment is sort of a mystery.

It isn't actually that much of a mystery. Bernie asks if someone has anything to say after the vows. Then Leonard's parents say something nice and only then Sheldon chimes in with something nice as well. So it's really not like he's just barging in out of nowhere. In the context of the scene it makes perfect sense.

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14 minutes ago, Lionne said:

Sure, but part of that is because they were WRITTEN that way.

Even though it's a sitcom, part of its popularity has been because it struck a chord with people. I know NoGav and Tensor enjoy Penny and Leonard because in some ways their relationship reminds them of their own marriages. Or the guy who wrote a blog post about getting into the show over the scene where the boys are going to nerd out over assembling Penny's shelving unit, because that reminded him of himself and his friends. Or the myriad people who have gotten into the show because their SO reminds them a bit of Sheldon. Or the Mom who was arrested by the scene where Penny takes a talkative and oblivious Sheldon to work despite being exhausted, because the dynamic reminded her of herself and her autistic son. The show is a sitcom and is painted in broad strokes, but people have related to the characters and found them real enough that they felt the show was tapping into certain truths.

And that's often where true humor lies; speaking or showing a comedic variant on the truth, especially things people are not exactly supposed to say out loud. This is part of why you get some of the lines you do in comedy, and like any comedic material, sometimes it flies and sometimes it doesn't.

But you will run into problems when you write scenes for your characters that don't feel authentic. Sheldon wasn't in hot water with Leonard or Penny, and the vow renewal was about them, so why his character felt the impetus to declare his love for his special person, Leonard (and Penny was there too, so what the hell), in the middle of that moment is sort of a mystery. It seems reasonable to wonder why Penny and Leonard didn't say, "we love you too, now please sit down and butt the hell out because this isn't about you." Instead they were very welcoming of Sheldon as the third wheel in their relationship, which is something that they sometimes seem okay with, even reliant on, and something that they sometimes seem highly annoyed by. (A few months ago Penny went on anti-anxiety meds over it, for instance.)

I think it's actually realistic that they would have conflicted feelings over it, as Sheldon has always had a very strong presence in their lives and even served as a crutch for their relationship from time to time. I think a lot of fans would like to see that crutch fall away, though, especially this deep into the show's run and considering that Lenny are now married and Sheldon has Amy. It's beginning to seem jarring and inorganic, and even annoying, that this dynamic persists despite the underpinnings making no logical sense anymore.

Some people still buy into it. Other people just don't find it believable anymore. Some people might still find it believable, but that doesn't mean they want to watch it. Especially not now. Personally, I think that I totally buy into how the three leads used to revolve around each other, but particularly with Amy's inclusion and Sheldon's supposed character development or growing up as well as Lenny's engagement and marriage, it's not exactly making sense anymore. And why Sheldon decided then and there was the appropriate moment for his big speech like that seemed illogical and forced.

So things can be written a certain way by the show's writers, but that doesn't mean people actually buy it. And the more it seems like it was just a convenient way to write something, or to pick some low-hanging comedic fruit, the more that "the strings are showing" on the puppets.

I get what you are saying, at the end of the day it comes down to each individual's opinion or their take on it and what if anything may bother them or not.

I can only speak for myself but I take it as cannon that they have this strong bond and that they love each other despite the snark, banter and nastiness that they ALL have displayed to one another at some point. So I get why Sheldon said what he said and I have no problem with the way he went about it or the timing but others may feel differently. Like I said in my previous post if this had been an actual wedding or if Sheldon had cut them off mid-flow and made it clearly all about himself then I would have had a problem with it.

It has to be respected that others may feel differently, as this is a show viewed by millions across the globe so therefore you are going to get millions of different opinions.

Edited by Jonny
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