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[Spoilers] Discussion: Season 10


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41 minutes ago, Lionne said:

Sure, but part of that is because they were WRITTEN that way.

So agree. It's like when people say they'll be satisfied with Shamy sex life (how the writers deal with coitus after Opening Night) as long as Amy's fine with it. Well Amy's fine with it because she was WRITTEN that way, because that's the only way for the writers to avoid dealing with the coitus problem. I wouldn't be fine if I were Amy.

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1 hour ago, April said:

It isn't actually that much of a mystery. Bernie asks if someone has anything to say after the vows. Then Leonard's parents say something nice and only then Sheldon chimes in with something nice as well. So it's really not like he's just barging in out of nowhere. In the context of the scene it makes perfect sense.

Actually Bernie says "All right, let's continue" before Sheldon jumps in. Also after she asks if anyone has anything snarky to say, she also said "Didn't think so". So I don't think it was really her intention to let anyone speak. But I can understand Sheldon takes it as a chance to say something.

The difference between Alfred's words and Sheldon's is, Alfred's speech was a compliment to Leonard (something wonderful), the groom; while Sheldon's words are about himself and how important Leonard is to HIM.

(Alfred: Beverly, I know that we don't bring out the best in each other. But something wonderful did come from our relationship: that young man right there.

Sheldon: You and I have our ups and downs. But I have always considered you my family. Even before the recent threat of our parents fornicating like wrinkly old rabbits. I don't always show it, but you are of great importance to me. Both of you.)

Don't get me wrong. I'm Ok with Sheldon's speech. I just find the whole scene a bit forced and think the writers could've tuned Sheldon's self-centered personality down a little since this is a Lenny moment.

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14 minutes ago, camelliayao said:

Actually Bernie says "All right, let's continue" before Sheldon jumps in. Also after she asks if anyone has anything snarky to say, she also said "Didn't think so". So I don't think it was really her intention to let anyone speak. But I can understand Sheldon takes it as a chance to say something.

The difference between Alfred's words and Sheldon's is, Alfred's speech was a compliment to Leonard (something wonderful), the groom; while Sheldon's words are about himself and how important Leonard is to HIM.

(Alfred: Beverly, I know that we don't bring out the best in each other. But something wonderful did come from our relationship: that young man right there.

Sheldon: You and I have our ups and downs. But I have always considered you my family. Even before the recent threat of our parents fornicating like wrinkly old rabbits. I don't always show it, but you are of great importance to me. Both of you.)

Don't get me wrong. I'm Ok with Sheldon's speech. I just find the whole scene a bit forced and think the writers could've tune Sheldon's self-centered personality down a little since this is a Lenny moment.

Nothing about Sheldon's speech felt forced to me. He's said very similar things before (in 9.10 for example), it didn't surprise me at all. And how's Alfred's speech a compliment to Leonard while Sheldon's is just a self-centered statement? That's a bit of a double standard there. Sheldon puts Leonard and Penny through a lot of trouble, so I thought it's nice for him to let them know he loves both of them.

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IT is just circumstanial the writing of Sheldon to me. They have seemed to lost all meaning and value, for a character. IT is some driven Gag, or Tool. I get the logic Sheldon was just telling Lenny how much they mean to him. Fair enough, but why in the middle of their vows? Why coulden't he just bring them aside. I don't know earlier, ahhh just wanna let you know, you mean the world to me bla bla bla, have a sweet hug done. TBH I was not bothered by what Sheldon said at all, or even the hug. It's just the timing, Sheldon tends to nail the timing lol. It is like in the beggining of the episode. Lenny are trying to sleep, and he is trying to talk to them. Then they star talking, and he is like shut up hahha. Funny, but my point is, it is selective bias to me. The issue is not what Sheldon said or did, his actions e.t.c. It is the writing. And I don't like handicapping Sheldon, and going oh everyone acknowledges his behaviour. Does not excuse it, nor does it justify it. I laughed, because was like ahh deadpan Sheldon. Problem is I don't think its so much Deadpan anymore, more thern just Sheldon taking a pan and hitting people over the head with it :sarcastichand:.  But they don't know where the line is anymore. Some of the comments he made towards Alfred and Mary my god. Were so borderline innapropriate, even for Sheldon. Like older adults cannot have sex, is just absurd.  If that was me, I would of been like who the hell do you think you are? We just laugh, because its Sheldon. And it is a sitcom. But he gets away with alot of crap, because of that. Alfred's statement came froma  loving and supportive father. Almost I agree a peace offering between him and Bev. Sheldon is different, he decided to make himself front and centre, tell Lenny how he feels bout them,  as he is not loving most of the time lol. That could of been said in private, if he was going to stand up, it had to be for a bigger reason then that. So you could argue what he said is OOC. So some think oh he has an ulterior motive, or he is being self centred. As he has a history of being the center of attention. So I don't think its a double standard, I just think it is selective thinking from the writers. What I learnt from this, is I was right all along, Amy is still #3 in the Peeking Order compard to Lenny. What do you know :icon_razz:.

I mean when he gets up. People be thinking OMGG the Big Shenny moment, he well finnaly declare his long suffering love for Penny!!! Nope. So he is declearing his love for Leonard then? Nope. So he is proposing to Amy then? Nope. So he is just disrupting proceedings then, to tell Leonard and Penny he appreciates them. Wow Lenny should be so grateful...

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13 minutes ago, FileXxX said:

Nothing about Sheldon's speech felt forced to me. He's said very similar things before (in 9.10 for example), it didn't surprise me at all. And how's Alfred's speech a compliment to Leonard while Sheldon's is just a self-centered statement? That's a bit of a double standard there. Sheldon puts Leonard and Penny through a lot of trouble, so I thought it's nice for him to let them know he loves both of them.

Hi FileXxX.  Happy Tuesday!  The main difference, to me is that Alfred's comment was an aside, meant for Beverly. Sort of a "peace offering" on the way they each behave toward the other since the end of their marriage (and probably in the lead-up to that end).  Of course Leonard, Penny and probably most everyone else there heard the comment, but it was meant for Beverly alone.  Sheldon, on the other hand got up and put himself in front of the action and announced what the couple meant to him.  This was the sort of thing that could have and should have been said to them in private, perhaps after or before the ceremony.  Just my two-cents worth.

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23 minutes ago, FileXxX said:

Nothing about Sheldon's speech felt forced to me. He's said very similar things before (in 9.10 for example), it didn't surprise me at all. And how's Alfred's speech a compliment to Leonard while Sheldon's is just a self-centered statement? That's a bit of a double standard there. Sheldon puts Leonard and Penny through a lot of trouble, so I thought it's nice for him to let them know he loves both of them.

First, I didn't say Sheldon's speech felt forced. I said the whole scene felt forced. As in the scene didn't flow IMO. It feels like the writers put Sheldon's speech in that scene just so some of us could "aww". I don't find Sheldon being sentimental forced at all. Like you said he said similar things before. In fact nowadays he pours his heart out so frequently that it almost becomes his everyday routine lol, that Sheldon being genunie stops working for me because like, what else is new?

Second, Alfred's words are not self-centered because, this is Lenny's wedding, and people are supposed to say how wonderful Leonard/Penny are or how great a couple they are. Alfred complimented Leonard, calling Leonard "something wonderful". Sheldon, on the other hand, tells Leonard how important Leonard is to him. So, like, Ok... But I don't think being someone who is important to Sheldon qualifies as a virtue? So the standard is pretty "single" IMO, and that is whether the words are something nice about Lenny. For example, Sheldon could say he's grateful for Leonard always being patient, generous and kind. That would count.

I have no problem about Sheldon letting Lenny know that he loves them. It's just the timing seems a little inappropriate? 

I don't think Lenny wedding is anywhere near "shadowed" because of Sheldon's speech though. Just, well I'd prefer the wedding without his speech.

Edited by camelliayao
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8 minutes ago, camelliayao said:

I have no problem about Sheldon letting Lenny know that he loves them. It's just the timing seems a little inappropriate? 

It's not any less inappropriate than all the other comments from the crowd. Why everyone's nitpicking over Sheldon's speech is beyond me. He basically said that Leonard and Penny are two wonderful human beings. What's so self-centered about that? I don't get it!

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3 minutes ago, FileXxX said:

It's not any less inappropriate than all the other comments from the crowd. Why everyone's nitpicking over Sheldon's speech is beyond me. He basically said that Leonard and Penny are two wonderful human beings. What's so self-centered about that? I don't get it!

It's the way he said it.  Also where he said it.  Everyone else made comments to themselves or people they were sitting with.  Sheldon got up, walked to the front of the aisle where the couple stood and said "I don't always show it, but you are of great importance to me. Both of you.". I think that is the difference.  Anyway enough out of me on this subject. It was a great episode that had me lauging often.  One that will last in my memory of this wonderful television show and appear in my top twenty list!!!

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1 hour ago, camelliayao said:

So agree. It's like when people say they'll be satisfied with Shamy sex life (how the writers deal with coitus after Opening Night) as long as Amy's fine with it. Well Amy's fine with it because she was WRITTEN that way, because that's the only way for the writers to avoid dealing with the coitus problem. I wouldn't be fine if I were Amy.

Also...is she that fine with it? To me, 'fine with it' would be some variant of 'I am genuinely okay with having sex again on my birthday (at the earliest)*, and consider the subject basically closed.' 'Fine with it' does not include hinting and hoping for Sheldon to show her his naked form or to have a repeat performance prior to the next birthday. Unless 'fine with it' actually means 'I do not really accept your declaration that sex will be some form of annual event and I will try to nudge you into rescinding it through hints and jokes, but hey- I'm still here, aren't I?'

Which....maybe it does. Maybe anything short of actually explicitly saying that you want more and/or walking out does truly mean 'fine with it'. And hey- Amy doesn't have to be 'fine with it'. It would be all right if Amy had the occasional 'Dang, I agreed too soon to the 'next birthday' thing. I want more!' moment, if she were shown (shown, not described) to enjoy Sheldon's company in other, emphatically non-sexual matters. Then you could argue that the sex thing is one niggle in an otherwise good relationship. But the writers too seldom allow Sheldon and Amy to complement each other, play off each other or challenge each other so you can sort of see why they're good together** and why Amy would put up with his metric tonnes of bullshit - and, frankly, he with hers. Instead, what they're quite keen to put on screen is a Sheldon who provides Amy crushed expectations and irritation, for the satisfaction of ministering to a spoiled brat's ego and annual genital-donation. For them to then have Amy turn around and say 'But he completes me!' or whatever is so monumentally lazy. It's a TV show, writers. Clue's in the name. Show, don't tell.

Ah well. Come the cohabitation experiment, writers who seem to actually like these characters will be back in the driver's seat. I can enjoy that one while waiting for the other shoe to fall. And work on that writers' room fanfic.

*Well, I suppose the latest issue isn't coitus so much as 'waiting for my boyfriend to propose to me on his own schedule'.

**cf. 'Can werewolves swim?' argument, tag scene of 'Big Bear', what seems like an almost unbearably delightful cohabitation experiment.

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15 minutes ago, FileXxX said:

It's not any less inappropriate than all the other comments from the crowd. Why everyone's nitpicking over Sheldon's speech is beyond me. He basically said that Leonard and Penny are two wonderful human beings. What's so self-centered about that? I don't get it!

No, he said Leonard and Penny are important to him. So being important to Sheldon equals "wonderful human being"? Wow, I didn't know Sheldon gets to define the standard of wonderfulness.

------

Plus, if Sheldon actually means (which I don't think he does) "You're important to me, you're like my family thus you're wonderful human beings", then I have to say this is like the definition of self-centered... 

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4 minutes ago, camelliayao said:

No, he said Leonard and Penny are important to him. So being important to Sheldon equals "wonderful human being"? Wow, I didn't know Sheldon gets to define the standard of wonderfulness.

Sheldon phrases things differently than a lot of other people, but it was a clear compliment in his way to them, it even had a clear element of self deprecation to it on his part.

I think you should also consider their reaction to it as well, they both clearly were very happy with what he said. There wasn't any famous Penny snark, Leonard shrugging or eye rolling.

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3 minutes ago, Jonny said:

Sheldon phrases things differently than a lot of other people, but it was a clear compliment in his way to them, it even had a clear element of self deprecation to it on his part.

I think you should also consider their reaction to it as well, they both clearly were very happy with what he said. There wasn't any famous Penny snark, Leonard shrugging or eye rolling.

agree 100%. 

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6 minutes ago, camelliayao said:

No, he said Leonard and Penny are important to him. So being important to Sheldon equals "wonderful human being"? Wow, I didn't know Sheldon gets to define the standard of wonderfulness.

Knowing that you're important to someone means a great deal to many people. It definitely is for Leonard and Penny, as you can see. 

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The wedding scene, to me, was handled very well. Remember that tbbt is really more like a stage play than a movie in how it is filmed. The speeches from the guests were to me stage versions of their interior monologues. In a movie, these speeches might be presented as flashbacks or "dream" sequences, but because tbbt films live, they had to use more theatrical devices such as direct monologues.  But as there are only so many ways to handle a character monologue in a wedding scene, I commend them for allowing as many characters to have a voice during the wedding and still have the scene play as believably as it did.

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15 minutes ago, Jonny said:

Sheldon phrases things differently than a lot of other people, but it was a clear compliment in his way to them, it even had a clear element of self deprecation to it on his part.

I think you should also consider their reaction to it as well, they both clearly were very happy with what he said. There wasn't any famous Penny snark, Leonard shrugging or eye rolling.

Actually I posted that reply you quoted because I agreed with Lionne's theory regarding your original post (lol please forgive me for my poor language), that Lenny's reaction is like that because it was WRITTEN to be like that. So their reaction does nothing for me.

I am aware that Sheldon has a different way of pharsing things. The fact is the way he phases things shows that he's a self-centered person. I have no problem with him being self-centered either. Because that's the Sheldon we've known for years. He's like that from the beginning.

Like I said, it's just bad timing. He can show his self-centered self at some other time, not on Lenny's second wedding ceremony, especially since he had already "kind of" showed his self-centered self watching the live ceremony of the first one.

7 minutes ago, FileXxX said:

Knowing that you're important to someone means a great deal to many people. It definitely is for Leonard and Penny, as you can see. 

That's a tricky thing. Let me see if I can express myself with my poor language lol.

See, the thing is, when Sheldon says "Leonard, you are important to me". Leonard can imterprete it as "Oh Sheldon is saying I'm a wonderful human being."

But, if Sheldon thinks "Telling Leonard that he's important to me equals saying he's wonderful", then IMO Sheldon's being self-centered, or even condescending.

Because it's like saying "I am Sheldon and I am so great. If you're able to get to be important to me. Then by all standards, you're wonderful."

Edited by camelliayao
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And here we thought when we first heard news from the TR that the 'weird husband' line was going to be the big bone of contention.

I guess to quote Howard when he was trying to persuade Sheldon to go and meet Amy for the first time "I'm out". I'm fine with it and that's all that matters at the end of the day to me. 'To each his own' and all that :icon_cool:

 

Edited by Jonny
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I guess the issue with Sheldon's little interruption is: it was staged in a rather dramatic fashion. To me, in the 'grammar' of narrative, that sort of thing would be the result of some equivalently dramatic stimuli (cf. Sheldon's epiphany in Earworm) and/or lead to some major character movement. Otherwise, it just seems...unnecessary and forced.

Take Sheldon's little declaration to Lenny. It revealed nothing that these three characters didn't already know. Sheldon loves them. They know that. Was there place for Sheldon to say he loved Lenny in the episode? Absolutely - for example, quietly to the two of them before or after the vows renewal. In that manner, in that moment? Why? It wasn't feeding off a sudden realisation of Lenny's importance to Sheldon - at this point, creatures living under rocks are clear on the basic dynamic that Lenny Are Important To Sheldon. It wasn't feeding off a change in the dynamic in any other way e.g. an argument, as @Lionne suggested. There was nothing to suggest that Sheldon had this opportunity, and this alone, to make this declaration - the traditional use of the 'Speak Now or Forever Hold Your Peace' interjection, as it were. Lenny aren't moving to another country. They aren't even moving across the hall (sigh). So what was so very urgent about Sheldon's speech that he had to make it right there, in front of everyone?

What's that you said? Sheldon had to get up and make the Very Dramatic Interjection for the promos to sucker in anyone who thought that this was the Shenny/Shamy/Shelnard moment they'd been waiting for? No, no, that is obstructively cynical. I will not entertain it. Fie, fie.

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46 minutes ago, legacy99 said:

Its jmo that the tptb seem to think that the other characters beside sheldon can't a scene and make it funny without sheldon being front and center. Again jmo

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Another question would of be could the wedding scene be just as funny or touching if Sheldon had said nothing? JMO yes.

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I was talking to a friend over coffee this morning whos a big shamy fan and she made a interesting comment she said she wouldn't be surprised if the last scene of the last espiode had leonard penny and sheldon in bed together smiling

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1 minute ago, legacy99 said:

I was talking to a friend over coffee this morning whos a big shamy fan and she made a interesting comment she said she wouldn't be surprised if the last scene of the last espiode had leonard penny and sheldon in bed together smiling

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Thanks for the image, I'm gonna get my brain bleach now. S'cuse me.

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