[Spoilers] Discussion: Season 10

[wowbagger]

 I was having a dig..at the writers. It just so happened that I wasn't talking about the Shamy. This time. 

4 hours ago, Tonstar17 said:

 I don't read long posts. It bores me

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And er...just FYI? Every single one of the Shamy posts after yours was a short one, mostly cackling about me being some sort of Shamy High Priest and/or pointing out my right to talk about non-Shamy things on occasion.

Edited September 23, 2016 by Tensor
Removed quotes from edited posts.

[Tonstar17]

And er...just FYI? Every single one of the Shamy posts after yours was a short one, mostly cackling about me being some sort of Shamy High Priest and/or pointing out my right to talk about non-Shamy things on occasion.

You can talk about about who ever you want, like you said it's your right. But don't expect me not to add comments if I feel you are having a dig at Lenny. Short posts for a change. Who knew.

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[wowbagger]

12 minutes ago, Tonstar17 said:

You can talk about about who ever you want, like you said it's your right. But don't expect me not to add comments if I feel you are having a dig at Lenny. Short posts for a change. Who knew.

Sent from my SM-N930F using Tapatalk
 

Hee! Yes, of course comment away (not, of course, that you need my permission to do so)! I was just tickled at the implication that I was some sort of Shamy spin doctor. @April? I'mma need that Ship's Counselor badge. Is there a office, a sash, or... I don't know, biscuits?

[JE7]

32 minutes ago, wowbagger said:

. @April? I'mma need that Ship's Counselor badge. Is there a office, a sash, or... I don't know, biscuits?

Office??? No,No,No you get the table in the back right corner of ten-forward and an unlimited tab. 

Cause even if they don't need a drink you will 

 

[April]

1 hour ago, wowbagger said:

Hee! Yes, of course comment away (not, of course, that you need my permission to do so)! I was just tickled at the implication that I was some sort of Shamy spin doctor. @April? I'mma need that Ship's Counselor badge. Is there a office, a sash, or... I don't know, biscuits?

45 minutes ago, JE7 said:

Office??? No,No,No you get the table in the back right corner of ten-forward and an unlimited tab. 

Cause even if they don't need a drink you will 

If we're talking about drinking in ten-forward and you still want that fancy sash you need to talk to this guy (I hear he likes prune juice):

[GivesAWhit]

5 hours ago, wowbagger said:

I would argue that there doesn't seem to be a great deal of depth or specificity to any of the relationships, romantic or otherwise, in the show. By which I mean that I don't get a particular sense of what keeps them together except for inertia. Let's take the Big Three for the time being.

1) Shelnard: Let me say right now that- my snickering about romantic!Shelnard aside- I have never gotten a sustained sense that Leonard even likes Sheldon that much (and, you know, why should he?), so much as that he is drawn to hyperanalytical, hypercritical intellectuals (Thank you, Mommy!). And I guess Leonard likes being needed? Which is interesting and all that, but also suggests that what Shelnard have is co-dependence, not a friendship (which Penny brought up once, and which was promptly whisked under the carpet. Oh, the festival of missed opportunities that was Season Nine). And in that case - sorry, but then if you like both characters individually, what you're rooting for is amicable separation, not continued co-dependence. Whether with or without Penny, Leonard and Sheldon need to disengage from each other.

2) Shenny: Now, on the other hand, I do (or at least did) get a sense that Sheldon and Penny like each other. What helps here is that we saw the friendship begin before our eyes (similarly with Shelowitz to some extent), whereas Shelnard have the tougher sell of trying to get us to believe that Sheldon and Leonard were and are friends and the spadework of the friendship had been done off-screen. Whereas with Sheldon and Penny, I can identify the antagonism, mutual bafflement and grudging respect that the two formed. I can say 'Penny pulls Sheldon out of his comfort zone, and Sheldon offers her a perspective uncluttered by sentiment, admiration or desire in any way.' It is, or was, enormous fun. The stuff we're seeing now is a distinctly watered-down 'Penny is now another one of Sheldon's caretakers - possibly his preferred one'. Not only nowhere near as fun, but the particular value of the Shenny friendship has been lost somewhere.

3) Lenny: Eish. I'm sorry, Lenny friends, but the writers' comfort zone with romances has been identified. It is 'adolescent angst'. The writers were fine with Lenny having a will-they-won't-they, shooting longing glances at each other from across the hall, miscommunicating, misunderstanding, rolling in the hay to patch up quarrels etc. When it comes to an adult relationship, they are mostly stumped. Almost (thank God, not entirely) the only way they can write Lenny recently is to pout and whine about their insecurities or secrets they're keeping from each other. Even adult worries (like financial problems) are written so fantastically unrealistically that you can't take them seriously. Oh, you have debt? You have loans? You know what might help with that? NOT PAYING RENT FOR TWO FLATS. And yes, the living arrangements don't help with that. But the living arrangements are a symbol of the writers' own petrified refusal to pull their fingers out and actually write for Lenny as an adult couple. They have Sheldon inserting himself into Lenny's marriage because they are terrified of what will happen when they don't have the crutch of the six-foot-tall child/pet/diabolus ex machina. 

Well, we'll see how the living arrangements play out, and whether we get some more sense of Lenny's settling into their new lives. Apart from dance parties in their underwear and changing the locks. 

I presume I cannot yet "like" your post because I am a new member, so I must do so directly. I am also an objective, equal opportunity critic; I "ship" good writing, nothing and no one else.

I for one DO read long posts, and whether I agree or not, I enjoy the thoughtful, detailed critiques I find here. If I felt the need for 140 characters of mindless drivel, I'd be reading Twitter. 

[Guest]

6 hours ago, wowbagger said:

Apart from dance parties in their underwear and changing the locks. 

To be honest, it doesn't take any more depth to make this shipper happy. I'm completely fine with that.

[Chrismo]

5 hours ago, wowbagger said:

(blinks) .....because the conversation to which I was responding was about Sheldon's friendship with Penny and how it affected Lenny? I mean, I can talk about my issues with the Shamy if you like. Again. Some more. 

[Cue legions of posters who have worn out their scroll buttons sending you PMs saying 'WHAT THE ACTUAL HELL, DUDE?!?']

I agree with that. But in defense of my fellow Lenny shipper the same things happens the other way too. A Shamy critique will happen and all of a sudden Lenny is brought into the discussion.

[Boonaroma]

4 hours ago, wowbagger said:

 

 I was having a dig..at the writers. It just so happened that I wasn't talking about the Shamy. This time. 

 

I like your long posts, and I hear what you're saying, but I think you're a little unfair to the writers, not in terms of execution, in terms of ability.  They're capable of writing a mature romance with reasonable adult complications.  I think they've shown that with Howardette.  I think they'll get there with Lenny.  Season nine Lenny was clumsy, but I think there were elements laced in there that the writers could pick up and run with.

 

The trouble is, they love going back to the same tired old jokes.  Leonard wore Penny down, tee hee.  Sheldon is unreasonable while Leonard snarks, heh.  Penny is Sheldon's California mom.

 

I get why they stick with it, when they gave up the Raj can't talk to women thing, they never figured out what else to do with him.  But if they asked for my advice, I'd say the best stuff they've done on the show is when they've moved on from the safe and tried something new.  There's a lot to like about the show and much of it wasn't part of the original concept, like  Howardette, the friendship between the girls, and honestly I like the way this LA plot is developing.

 

So, in sum, I agree with you, but I'm a tad more optimistic.

[Carlos]

On ‎9‎/‎21‎/‎2016 at 4:24 AM, April said:

RE: Ugh Raj. (This will probably be one of those things where I keep yelling angrily: And another thing...!! Gawwd.)

Anyway, from what I know they might have had trouble in the past booking Laura Spencer because she plays a recurring character on Bones so there might have been scheduling problems. It happens, no big deal. That's why I thought they upgraded her status last year - make her a regular so that she prioritises TBBT and they can give her more stuff to do. Yay! But then that never happened. Ugh. 

So then, Raj then thought about breaking up with her which he eventually did so I thought, alright, LS isn't working out so they need to end this and get Raj another storyline. Fair enough. At the same time they brought in Claire but her introduction was so luke warm that you wouldn't think this would go anywhere. Again, fair enough. Raj alone after being the maker of this own heartbreak could lead to him sort out his life or something.

And then that never happened and instead Raj suddenly dated Emily and Claire!?!??!???? Why??? How?? That was so poorly communicated that it feels like they just threw that together after getting drunk in the writers room or something. And then they both dragged it out in the most annoying way possible and did nothing with it at the same time. It was clear that this storyline wasn't working so we were all just waiting for the day that this nonsense would be over, hopefully in a spectacular fashion with one or both of the girls kicking his ass. BUT THEN THAT NEVER HAPPENED EITHER! I mean, yes, it's over, but in the most unsatisfying way, from what I can tell. JFC, writers, you really dropped the ball on this one!

And it's such a pity cause I think it could have been interesting. It could have been something fun for Kunal to do, and for the show to explore beyond just making him look like an ass. It could have also given Emily a better send off. UGH.

I still like Raj as a supportive character for the gang, like when he helps Bernie with the pregnancy. I just wish he would get a nice storyline for himself. I guess that will never happen, too! :C

I agree with everything you say except your last sentence. I really don't like Raj as I think he is one humongous douche and he deserves anything bad that happens to him. Of the whole gang he's the one who has been a worse friend to his friends than any other character (Penny/Bernadette anyone?). However the way TPTB have handled his story is just so atrocious that it reeks of bad writing. The way they've handled it  makes them look like amateur writers, and there are several fan fictions that are much better written than that crap. They started him with Lucy which didn't work out, and then they paired him with Emily. Of all the ways they could have gone with it they never really did take it anywhere: Emily's creepy side? Went nowhere. Emily's (alleged) feud with Penny? Went nowhere. Emily supposedly being a strong woman? They kept that up until they had Raj dump her first and two time her later. Speaking of which  are we supposed to believe that in a very short span of time Raj went from being a very feminine guy who couldn't talk to women (except with the help of alcohol) to a guy who even Leonard describes as a "playa"? Really? And to add insult to injury all the girls (Penny/Amy/Bernadette) gang up on her when she displays a hint of weakness. Furthermore they make Claire fall for him as if he were God's gift to women. It sure is a pathetic story arc if I ever saw one. I mean you have to actively  try to write a story this badly ...

[April]

7 minutes ago, Carlos said:

I agree with everything you say except your last sentence. I really don't like Raj as I think he is one humongous douche and he deserves anything bad that happens to him. Of the whole gang he's the one who has been a worse friend to his friends than any other character (Penny/Bernadette anyone?). However the way TPTB have handled his story is just so atrocious that it reeks of bad writing. The way they've handled it  makes them look like amateur writers, and there are several fan fictions that are much better written than that crap. They started him with Lucy which didn't work out, and then they paired him with Emily. Of all the ways they could have gone with it they never really did take it anywhere: Emily's creepy side? Went nowhere. Emily's (alleged) feud with Penny? Went nowhere. Emily supposedly being a strong woman? They kept that up until they had Raj dump her first and two time her later. Speaking of which  are we supposed to believe that in a very short span of time Raj went from being a very feminine guy who couldn't talk to women (except with the help of alcohol) to a guy who even Leonard describes as a "playa"? Really? And to add insult to injury all the girls (Penny/Amy/Bernadette) gang up on her when she displays a hint of weakness. Furthermore they make Claire fall for him as if he were God's gift to women. It sure is a pathetic story arc if I ever saw one. I mean you have to actively  try to write a story this badly ...

Let me rephrase that to make it more clear: I like Raj when it's not about the burning train wreck that is his dating life. I agree with you that pretty much everything they tried with him on that particular front either went nowhere or was derailed by terrible writing decisions. I honestly do not know why they have such a hard time hitting at least some right notes with him here. Lucy was the only one that had a lasting effect in that the heartbreak cured him from his selective mutism. So I give them that, I guess.

Nevertheless, I do still like him with the rest of the cast in the non-dating stories and it sometimes feels like they're writing a different character there, it's weird. And it's not like Kunal doesn't have great chemestry with them, you know? I have a soft spot for the H/B/R threesome with all its weirdness, I like how Raj is so supportive and helps Bernie with the pregnancy recently, I like it in general when he's with the girls (excluding examples like the one mentioned by you above), Raj/Sheldon stories are always fun to me, etc. etc. But it's a pity that they can manage to put him into other characters' plots and make it work (mostly) but his own material is just... UGH.

[spidergirl]

4 hours ago, wowbagger said:

Hee! Yes, of course comment away (not, of course, that you need my permission to do so)! I was just tickled at the implication that I was some sort of Shamy spin doctor. @April? I'mma need that Ship's Counselor badge. Is there a office, a sash, or... I don't know, biscuits?

Hi! I'd like to say I enjoy to read your long posts. Sometimes I agree with things you said, sometimes not much but I think you agree less with some of my posts, as they have sometimes too much shamy enthusiasm of fan!

 I really enjoy reading clever and well written crictics and you know how to do that. Also like your sense of humour. Keep it up  

Edited September 23, 2016 by spidergirl

[A.D.A.]

Oh good, we're talking about the Shelnard relationship! You know, as much as I do weigh in on pairing conversations, that's actually one of the things I used to like most, and I agree with @wowbagger that nowadays it's a bit difficult to understand why the hell they are friends to begin with and it was always a little tricky.

I think a lot of it has to do with show, don't tell, actually. I remember several scenes from the early seasons where Sheldon was being willingly friendly with Leonard; not in maybe a normal human sense, but in a way that I felt Leonard still appreciated. My favourite example is still from the Codpiece Topology from S2, after Leslie breaks up with Leonard. Sheldon cheers Leonard up by telling him to look on the bright side: Only nine more months to comic-con. The joke is, of course, that this DOES actually cheer Leonard up, and you'll notice Sheldon smiles at that, so that seems to have been his goal. If this scene was written today, Leonard's answer would be something like "Really? I just got dumped by a girl and you are talking about comics? It's like I'm living with a six foot ten year old." [Cue audience laughter.] But of course, Sheldon wouldn't have tried to make him feel better to begin with nowadays. He would have said something mean and callous because he has somehow character de-developed over the seasons and now has to clumsily relearn things he used to be able to do (see: feeling empathy). And yet, now is when we get Sheldon telling Leonard he is his brother and so on. It's weird - or maybe not. I mean, telling your audience that's what they're supposed to feel is easier than creating a brotherly bond onscreen.

And we so rarely see Shelnard doing their hobbies together anymore because now that they have wives and the relationship plots eat up the very short screentime, where would you even fit that all in? If they'd go cosplaying now, we'd probably have to concentrate on the girls shaking their heads at them and commiserating over their childish husbands over some wine, anyway. (Incidentally, I got the cutest photo from a friend a few days ago; she, not really a nerdy person, and her 2 year old were all dressed up as peasants to go to a medieval festival with her LARPer husband because somehow not all wives in real life try to nag away all of their husbands' more outlandish hobbies. They even sometimes participate and do it to spend a fun time with their spouses, even if they're not all that into it themselves???? what is this actual witchery)

It's also that I feel like there was a tipping point of mean-spiritedness in their comments to each other, especially Leonard towards Sheldon. It used to be you could pity him, but because it's so easy to write sarcastic little asides for Leonard about Sheldon's behaviour, they do it so often that it crosses a line, at least for me. I feel like Leonard is not being funny anymore, but an ineffectual whiner who should shut up or move out already if he really hates him so much. On the other hand, Sheldon is now not his eccentric friend, but his responsibility, so Leonard's literally not allowed to leave him (or Penny will push him back, apparently, as we've seen last season); who could blame Leonard for being bitter? Maybe if he gets to hand over the Major Caretaker role to Amy this season, they can return to having a normal friendship while Amy becomes Sheldon's nanny? But at this point, why would they?

Edited September 23, 2016 by A.D.A.

[2L344]

8 hours ago, Jonny said:

Penny is way more 'life smart' than Leonard so I can understand why he opens up to Penny and seeks her advice or guidance on certain things. A plus point to me is in these last two TR episodes is that Amy and Leonard seem to be interacting more and that could be a good thing. Overall I am glad that Lenny are trying to help their friends, it's what friends do but also benefits them in the longer term if they can help make their friends living situation experiment a success.

Leonard is Sheldon's best friend but Penny must be pretty high up in Sheldon's list of friends imo.

She is way up there on that list. Im one who has always enjoyed the friendship and was never concerned it would grow beyond it. Theyve been there for each other through the years and "get" each other.

He was there for Penny when she broke her arm, she took care of Sheldon when he was sick, they kept each other company when Leonard was away- the list is endless. I like that Penny sees past Sheldon's b.s. and he is always her "weirdo" friend.

Im not one of those Shamy shipper s who is intimidated by the relationship, though I can understand why some fans covet the intimacy of that friendship for Amy. Penny was there way before Amy came on the scene, and the friendship was established early. The scene where Sheldon breaks into Penny's apartment to ask her not to hurt Leonard, when he learned she might break up with Leonard, sold for me the idea that Sheldon will always have Leonard's back in the end and that Penny will always be a friend and nothing more. The friends continue to define that relationship as such in different episodes.

Penny is Amy's bff and that can make things awkward to be sure for Shamy because of Sheldon's friendship with her as well. We saw that time and again, and the S9 breakup arc really tested some of those boundaries. Frankly, Penny pissed me off during the breakup because I thought she shouldve been more supportive of Sheldon but looking back I can see what a tough position she had to be in.

I hope Sheldon and Penny stay very close up to the last episode of the show.

 

Edited September 23, 2016 by 2L344

[kerrycec03]

8 minutes ago, 2L344 said:

She is way up there on that list. Im one who has always enjoyed the friendship and was never concerned it would grow beyond it. Theyve been there for each other through the years and "get" each other.

He was there for Penny when she broke her arm, she took care of Sheldon when he was sick, they kept each other company when Leonard was away- the list is endless. I like that Penny sees past Sheldon's b.s. and he is always her "weirdo" friend.

Im not one of those Shamy shipper s who is intimidated by the relationship, though I can understand why some fans covet the intimacy of that friendship for Amy. Penny was there way before Amy came on the scene, and the friendship was established early. The scene where Sheldon breaks into Penny's apartment to ask her not to hurt Leonard, when he learned she might break up with Leonard, sold for me the idea that Sheldon will always have Leonard's back in the end and that Penny will always be a friend and nothing more. The friends continue to define that relationship as such in different episodes.

Penny is Amy's bff and that can make things awkward to be sure for Shamy because of Sheldon's friendship with her as well. We saw that time and again, and the S9 breakup arc really tested some of those boundaries. Frankly, Penny pissed me off during the breakup because I thought she shouldve been more supportive of Sheldon but looking back I can see what a tough position she had to be in.

I hope Sheldon and Penny stay very close up to the last episode of the show.

I agree 90%.... I've never minded the Shenny friendship and time & time again we know they want whats best for one another.  And some of my favorite non-Shamy episodes are Shenny ones. 

I do disagree with Amy's BFF being Penny.  That ship has sailed seasons ago for me.  They are close friends sure BUT Penny's always going to have a guarded way with Amy and actually in the last 2 seasons especially the 3 girls as a whole are equals (in fact we've seen more confiding in Bernadette over Penny probably because of Penny's closeness to Sheldon).

 

I also am enjoying more closeness between Leonard & Amy.  Its an awkward relationship that deserves to be looked closer at.  They are both with alphas, both feel like underdogs, both have that Shenny bond so it makes sense and helps offset other aspects of things.

 

 

 

[ATM]

Leonard is a useless , boring , dull character.

When was the last time his character had a story arc???

[2L344]

11 minutes ago, kerrycec03 said:

I agree 90%.... I've never minded the Shenny friendship and time & time again we know they want whats best for one another.  And some of my favorite non-Shamy episodes are Shenny ones. 

I do disagree with Amy's BFF being Penny.  That ship has sailed seasons ago for me.  They are close friends sure BUT Penny's always going to have a guarded way with Amy and actually in the last 2 seasons especially the 3 girls as a whole are equals (in fact we've seen more confiding in Bernadette over Penny probably because of Penny's closeness to Sheldon).

 

I also am enjoying more closeness between Leonard & Amy.  Its an awkward relationship that deserves to be looked closer at.  They are both with alphas, both feel like underdogs, both have that Shenny bond so it makes sense and helps offset other aspects of things.

 

 

 

I agree that from Penny's perspective Amy may not be HER bff, but I believe in Amy's eyes she still is. The running gag used to be this one-sided view of that friendship, with Amy injecting herself into Penny's life. The friendship is more natural now but it still skews in Penny's favor. But youre right, lately Bernie has been front and center with Amy. Maybe as Amy has matured over the seasons she finds Bernie's grounded advice and the shared professional background more appealing to the adolescent fangirling of the "popular girl" that was the Penny attraction.

I, too, would like to see the writers explore the Amy/Leonard relationship more. Like you point out, there is a lot to explore with that dynamic. 

[serena_1995]

1 hour ago, 2L344 said:

She is way up there on that list. Im one who has always enjoyed the friendship and was never concerned it would grow beyond it. Theyve been there for each other through the years and "get" each other.

He was there for Penny when she broke her arm, she took care of Sheldon when he was sick, they kept each other company when Leonard was away- the list is endless. I like that Penny sees past Sheldon's b.s. and he is always her "weirdo" friend.

Im not one of those Shamy shipper s who is intimidated by the relationship, though I can understand why some fans covet the intimacy of that friendship for Amy. Penny was there way before Amy came on the scene,

------

I hope Sheldon and Penny stay very close up to the last episode of the show.

 

Absolutely.   And dont forget, Penny  taught him how to welcome the audience aka "spread your legs, invite them in" during the Fun with Flags ! Always laughed at that one.

Edited September 23, 2016 by serena_1995
Spell check

[Guest]

1 hour ago, ATM said:

Leonard is a useless , boring , dull character.

When was the last time his character had a story arc???

Uh... right now?

[veejay]

11 minutes ago, FileXxX said:

Uh... right now?

[djsurrey]

2 hours ago, A.D.A. said:

Oh good, we're talking about the Shelnard relationship! You know, as much as I do weigh in on pairing conversations, that's actually one of the things I used to like most, and I agree with @wowbagger that nowadays it's a bit difficult to understand why the hell they are friends to begin with and it was always a little tricky.

I think a lot of it has to do with show, don't tell, actually. I remember...

It is one of the show's mysteries. An enigma. Leonard is special, somehow.

Quote

Sheldon: So, I hear you saying you’re angry with your mother.

Leonard: Damn right, I’m angry with my mother. For God’s sake, I was eight years old. She humiliated me. That’s when the bed-wetting started again.

Sheldon: Thank you, Leonard.

Leonard: For what?

Sheldon: If someone as damaged as you can find his way to crawl out of bed each morning, I think I can face a simple award ceremony.

Leonard: Wait, that’s it? I thought we had a whole hour!

 

Edited September 23, 2016 by djsurrey

[Judith]

The Shenny friendship is something that 95% of the time I feel neutral about, and 5% of the time (depending on the plot) draws my attention. Kind of like Penny.

I've spent some time now on the forum but I still don't understand what is this so-called Shenny bond that people keep bringing up and where it originated from. I mean I've watched the episodes and I know they're very good friends but I still don't see what is special about it for it to be referred to as something threatening for Amy or annoying for shippers.

@2L344 What kind of intimacy do Sheldon and Penny have in your opinion that fans would covet for Amy? Especially at this point? Because Leonard has known Sheldon longer than Penny.

Edited September 23, 2016 by Judith

[Tonstar17]

It is one of the show's mysteries. An enigma. Lenard is special, somehow.

It's a mythical mystery why Leonard or Penny for that matter are friends with someone so condescending and selfish as Sheldon. Which then begs the question, which comes first: the discovery of the Loch Ness Monster and Bigfoot, or the actual whereabouts of this bond, brotherhood and best friends tptb and posters speak of.

Sent from my SM-N930F using Tapatalk

[Swedish Chef]

7 minutes ago, Tonstar17 said:

It's a mythical mystery why Leonard or Penny for that matter are friends with someone so condescending and selfish as Sheldon. Which then begs the question, which comes first: the discovery of the Loch Ness Monster and Bigfoot, or the actual whereabouts of this bond, brotherhood and best friends tptb and posters speak of.

Sent from my SM-N930F using Tapatalk

I don't think you can say that Sheldon is selfish all the time, he has helped Leonard and Penny and other characters on several occasions. 

[Tonstar17]

I don't think you can say that Sheldon is selfish all the time, he has helped Leonard and Penny and other characters on several occasions. 

A couple of rights does not overright many wrongs. Everything thing that Sheldon has done has motives behind them which ends in his favour. Except for when he loaned penny money.

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