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Chit Chat: Season 10


Tensor
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2 hours ago, sarah7 said:

But all good actors/actresses are nominated/awarded for every character they play, otherwise their nomination or win are merely a lucky strike or the result of Hollywood's whim?

While I agree nominations or awards are not by any means the one and only reference to measure an actor's ability, of course they have to mean something! if anything, the serendipitous combination of a good performer and a particular character in the right place and the right moment.

Because every time Mayim's nominations come up, the same old "noms mean nothing" excuse come up as well, also that she only got those for the type of character she plays, like the only thing anyone has to do is to put on the frumpy clothes and glasses and say a couple weird things and voila!, here's your Emmy nom!, no special talent or ability required!

Excuse me, but Mayim is beyond fantastic playing the quirky side of Amy, just remember the tiara scene, the scavenger hunt karaoke and her plenty of wonderful one-liners perfectly delivered. I'm not sure if she has what it takes to be an all-round dramatic actress, but TBBT is a comedy, and she was nominated accordingly, and also rightfully. Give the same crazy lines and appearance to a less capable actress and let's see how many accolades the same odd duck/academy favorite character gets.

So, no, I don't think noms or awards are everything, nor that those who doesn't have them are lousy actors, but I also don't think it's fair to suggest the actor's talent has nothing/little to do with getting them.

There is an argument "out there" that the best way to win an Oscar is to be straight and play gay, be beautiful and play ugly, and be able and play disabled.  So the extremity of the material makes a difference. In this work Ms Cuoco isn't tested in the same way. But, given that she launched the show, I'd think in this case she is one of the giants on who's shoulders others can stand.

And I don't believe hot and panting A/S. I find the passion a tad forced. Because... Sheldon so well persuaded me for those four years. Such a distinctive performance I can't let go. 

Edited by Nogravitasatall
One of THE giants
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41 minutes ago, sarah7 said:

But all good actors/actresses are nominated/awarded for every character they play, otherwise their nomination or win are merely a lucky strike or the result of Hollywood's whim?

Look, I'm not the one that insinuated Mayim got the nominations because she is a great actor.   I was just pointing that if she was so much better than the others, she would have a nomination for something other than Amy, she doesn't.  Or, as I said in another later post, it's a rare combination of actor and character.  

 

41 minutes ago, sarah7 said:

While I agree nominations or awards are not by any means the one and only reference to measure an actor's ability, of course they have to mean something! if anything, the serendipitous combination of a good performer and a particular character in the right place and the right moment.

Then, why didn't you castigate those that insinuate that Mayim is a better actor than Kaley, solely because of those nominations?   If they aren't the one and only reference, then they can't be used to claim one actor is better than another, wouldn't you agree?  The serendipitous combination is a point I've made over and over again.  

41 minutes ago, sarah7 said:

Because every time Mayim's nominations come up, the same old "noms mean nothing" excuse come up as well, also that she only got those for the type of character she plays, like the only thing anyone has to do is to put on the frumpy clothes and glasses and say a couple weird things and voila!, here's your Emmy nom!, no special talent or ability required!

No, it's because of combination of her acting and the character.  For me it's always been that claiming she is a better actress, just because she has the nominations and others don't, is incorrect.  I'd buy that point if she had nominations for something other than Amy.  You want an example of it being the actor, for the same character?  Ed Asner. He WON an Emmy as best actor in a comedy and best actor in a drama, for the same character.  Or another example would be Bryan Cranston who got comedy nominations for Malcom in the Middle and Won an Emmy for drama.   

41 minutes ago, sarah7 said:

Excuse me, but Mayim is beyond fantastic playing the quirky side of Amy, just remember the tiara scene, the scavenger hunt karaoke and her plenty of wonderful one-liners perfectly delivered. I'm not sure if she has what it takes to be an all-round dramatic actress, but TBBT is a comedy, and she was nominated accordingly, and also rightfully.

I've never said otherwise.  My complaint, all along, are the comments that because she has those nominations, she is somehow better than the other actors.   And, I've yet to see a valid point supporting that, other than "I think" or "I believe".  If people want to think or believe that, that's fine, but it's not a valid supporting argument.    

 

41 minutes ago, sarah7 said:

 Give the same crazy lines and appearance to a less capable actress and let's see how many accolades the same odd duck/academy favorite character gets.

That can be turned around to "put Mayim in another role, and lets see how many nominations she gets".  We know the answer to that, zero.  That's doesn't make her a bad actress.  

41 minutes ago, sarah7 said:

So, no, I don't think noms or awards are everything, nor that those who doesn't have them are lousy actors, but I also don't think it's fair to suggest the actor's talent has nothing/little to do with getting them.

It's also not fair to claim one actor is better than the other, based only on nominations for one character.  You get several nominations, for several different characters, you may have a point.     

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1 hour ago, Judith said:

Please. Just accept that Mayim has these Emmy nominations, and not a certain someone else, for a reason.

I do, and the reason is because of the character and her acting ability.  Not that she is better actor than anyone else.     

1 minute ago, legacy99 said:

I don't know about tv and movies but the field i work in the best person gets paid more

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TV's and Movies are not like other fields.  It's not usually the best person, it's the more well known, the more needed, the one that's been there longer, the one that will bring in more money, or even other reasons, who gets paid more.   Just like nominations are not necessarily indicative of who is a better actor than someone else.  

Chris Pratt is making a whole lot more money these days, and it has nothing to do with being a better actor than he used to be.  It's simply because he was needed for the sequel to "Guardians of the Galaxy"  or he was coming off of "Jurassic World" which pulled in a lot of money and of some new movies wanted a draw.  

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14 minutes ago, Tensor said:

Look, I'm not the one that insinuated Mayim got the nominations because she is a great actor.   I was just pointing that if she was so much better than the others, she would have a nomination for something other than Amy, she doesn't.  Or, as I said in another later post, it's a rare combination of actor and character.  

 

Actually, she does!!

IMG_0669.PNG

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1 minute ago, Kathy2611 said:

Actually, she does!!

IMG_0669.PNG

 I thought we were talking about Emmys.

 But, if you want to talk about other awards, Kaley has three nominations (for two different shows) in this category and won a The Satellite Award for best actress.  Mayim was nominated that year for supporting but didn't win.  But I'm not going to claim that Kaley is a better actress because she won and Mayim didn't.  

Her and Mayim have each been nominated for and won a Critic's Choice Award.    

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2 hours ago, spidergirl said:

This! ^^ I would give you 1000 likes for this post if I could!

Thanks :shy:

1 hour ago, Tensor said:

Look, I'm not the one that insinuated Mayim got the nominations because she is a great actor.   I was just pointing that if she was so much better than the others, she would have a nomination for something other than Amy, she doesn't.  Or, as I said in another later post, it's a rare combination of actor and character. 

I replied to you because your answer to the poster who mentioned the noms was literally "Which really means nothing", because my main point was that, albeit not everything, nominations do mean something. Since you and me agree that noms and awards are a combination of an actor and a character at the right moment, don't you also agree with me that Mayim's nominations were deserved because she got the right character at the right moment and mainly because she played it greatly, or do you think those were undeserved?

1 hour ago, Tensor said:

Then, why didn't you castigate those that insinuate that Mayim is a better actor than Kaley, solely because of those nominations?   If they aren't the one and only reference, then they can't be used to claim one actor is better than another, wouldn't you agree?  The serendipitous combination is a point I've made over and over again. 

Perhaps for the same reason you immediately jumped to express your disagreement to the poster who claimed Mayim's superiority over Kaley solely because of nominations but had nothing to say to the poster who previously claimed that Mayim/Amy as an actor/character was even less important than the couch and had no right to have feelings about her fictional relationship? I mean, you care about your girl and I care about mine, I guess?

1 hour ago, Tensor said:

No, it's because of combination of her acting and the character.  For me it's always been that claiming she is a better actress, just because she has the nominations and others don't, is incorrect.  I'd buy that point if she had nominations for something other than Amy.  You want an example of it being the actor, for the same character?  Ed Asner. He WON an Emmy as best actor in a comedy and best actor in a drama, for the same character.  Or another example would be Bryan Cranston who got comedy nominations for Malcom in the Middle and Won an Emmy for drama.  

But isn't that a bit contradictory?, you say you don't believe in nominations to measure an actor's talent, yet, at the same time, you say that you'd buy the point of Mayim's superiority if only she had nominations for other something than Amy, then, at the end, are nominations important or not?

1 hour ago, Tensor said:

I've never said otherwise.  My complaint, all along, are the comments that because she has those nominations, she is somehow better than the other actors.   And, I've yet to see a valid point supporting that, other than "I think" or "I believe".  If people want to think or believe that, that's fine, but it's not a valid supporting argument.   

What would be a valid supporting argument then?

1 hour ago, Tensor said:

That can be turned around to "put Mayim in another role, and lets see how many nominations she gets".  We know the answer to that, zero.  That's doesn't make her a bad actress.  

 

It's also not fair to claim one actor is better than the other, based only on nominations for one character.  You get several nominations, for several different characters, you may have a point.     

Oh, look at Kathy261's post! Sems that the answer was wrong, there was more than zero!

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20 minutes ago, sarah7 said:

 

I replied to you because your answer to the poster who mentioned the noms was literally "Which really means nothing"

Yes, here's what I responded to:

Quote

Yeah that's why Mayim has been nominated for her portrayal of the character multiple times and Kaley hasn't even been nominated once.

Insinuating Mayim was a better actress, because of the nominations.  When in fact the noms mean nothing as to who is a better actor.  Unless you are saying the nominations mean something, when it comes to claiming who is a better actor, but I haven't seen you say that.

20 minutes ago, sarah7 said:

 

I replied to you because your answer to the poster who mentioned the noms was literally "Which really means nothing", because my main point was that, albeit not everything, nominations do mean something. Since you and me agree that noms and awards are a combination of an actor and a character at the right moment, don't you also agree with me that Mayim's nominations were deserved because she got the right character at the right moment and mainly because she played it greatly, or do you think those were undeserved?

I've never claimed they weren't deserved.  Since we both agree that a nomination is due to acting ability and character, do you agree that just because Mayim has been nominated and Kaley hasn't, it doesn't mean that Mayim's a better actress?  

 

20 minutes ago, sarah7 said:

But isn't that a bit contradictory?, you say you don't believe in nominations to measure an actor's talent, yet, at the same time, you say that you'd buy the point of Mayim's superiority if only she had nominations for other something than Amy, then, at the end, are nominations important or not?

Go back and look.  I said nominations based on one character are not a valid measure of how good an actor is.   Actors nominated for more than one role,(or like Ed Asner, one character and winning for both drama and comendy) is a better indication that the actor is a good one.  Not infallible, but a pretty good indication.    

This goes back to actors like Don Knotts and Kelsey Grammar. Both won multiple Emmys, but never were nominated for any other role.  In fact, Don Knotts spent the rest of his career (and the time previous to it, if you go look) playing variations of Barney fife.  He was brilliant in that particular role, but not so much in any role that didn't have a Barney Fife component.

If Mayim had nominations (Emmy) other than Amy (or a clone of Amy), then I would say she's would be better than Kaley.  But for only one character, that appears to one of those serendipitous coming together of actor and character.    Why do you think Meryl Streep is so revered by the acting community.  She's not tied to one character, or one genre, or one medium.    

20 minutes ago, sarah7 said:

What would be a valid supporting argument then?

I don't know, I'm not trying to argue that side.  But the supporting arguments so far, are not valid.  If you want to have the opinion that she is the best actor on the show, because of the nominations, that's fine, but it's really not any kind of valid support.  

20 minutes ago, sarah7 said:

Oh, look at Kathy261's post! Sems that the answer was wrong, there was more than zero!

Her other Emmy noms are zero.  If you want to get into other awards, you'll note my response to Kathy that Kaley won an award (in the higher category of staring, rather than supporting) the same year Mayim was only nominated.  But, that doesn't make Kaley, a better actor.  In fact, like Mayim's nominations, "it really means nothing".

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ohh looks like most of the people here believe Modern Family is a lot lot lot better than big bang theory since it has won so many EMMY awards ... and big bang theory has one ZERO

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2 hours ago, Tensor said:

Insinuating Mayim was a better actress, because of the nominations.  When in fact the noms mean nothing as to who is a better actor.  Unless you are saying the nominations mean something, when it comes to claiming who is a better actor, but I haven't seen you say that.

 

I've never claimed they weren't deserved.  Since we both agree that a nomination is due to acting ability and character, do you agree that just because Mayim has been nominated and Kaley hasn't, it doesn't mean that Mayim's a better actress? 

I do say nominations mean something, not everything but definitely something. And thing is, I don't think any of them is a better actress than the other, and actually, from what I've seen of them none of them strike to me as a an all-round actress, but, in they other hand, they both are, in my opinion, terrific comedic actresses who are perfect for the roles they respectively play at TBBT.

3 hours ago, Tensor said:

Go back and look.  I said nominations based on one character are not a valid measure of how good an actor is.   Actors nominated for more than one role,(or like Ed Asner, one character and winning for both drama and comendy) is a better indication that the actor is a good one.  Not infallible, but a pretty good indication.    

This goes back to actors like Don Knotts and Kelsey Grammar. Both won multiple Emmys, but never were nominated for any other role.  In fact, Don Knotts spent the rest of his career (and the time previous to it, if you go look) playing variations of Barney fife.  He was brilliant in that particular role, but not so much in any role that didn't have a Barney Fife component.

If Mayim had nominations (Emmy) other than Amy (or a clone of Amy), then I would say she's would be better than Kaley.  But for only one character, that appears to one of those serendipitous coming together of actor and character.   Why do you think Meryl Streep is so revered by the acting community.  She's not tied to one character, or one genre, or one medium.   

So, nominations (which you had firmly insisted mean nothing as to who is a better actor) can nonetheless become a valid measurement point as long as someone has at least two of them for two very different characters?

3 hours ago, Tensor said:

I don't know, I'm not trying to argue that side.  But the supporting arguments so far, are not valid.  If you want to have the opinion that she is the best actor on the show, because of the nominations, that's fine, but it's really not any kind of valid support. 

But if you don't know what supporting arguments are valid, how can you be so sure that the ones that are being given are not valid?

3 hours ago, Tensor said:

Her other Emmy noms are zero.  If you want to get into other awards, you'll note my response to Kathy that Kaley won an award (in the higher category of staring, rather than supporting) the same year Mayim was only nominated.  But, that doesn't make Kaley, a better actor.  In fact, like Mayim's nominations, "it really means nothing".

And I could also point out that when they were younger both were nominated for the same award (different years, obviously) and that Mayim won it and Kaley didn't, also, if you want to point out that in the case the award both had won, Kaley's was one of a "higher category", I could also mention that Kaley apparently has won two worst actress awards last year (altough those were in a supporting actress category anyways), but, ok, since we have agreed that noms and wins are not really relevant, let's leave that aside.

As I see it, acting is something that can be very difficult to measure in an objective way, because it appeals directly to the audience's emotions. Then that's why we retort to more easily measurable concepts, like nominations or salaries, but at the end of the day, what really matters is what a given actor/actress make us feel, something that, obviously is not going to be the same for all and each one of the viewers, hence the difficulty to come to an agreement.

Also, while we are here fighting over who of them is the next Meryl Streep, none of them seem to be that much into acting, I mean, Mayim's passion seems to be writing and Kaley's seem to be horse riding. I can easily see them dedicating more time to their respective passions once TBBT is over, with the ocassional TV or film appearance and not breaking a sweat over getting an oscar nom ever.

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13 hours ago, Kathy2611 said:

Yeah that's why Mayim has been nominated for her portrayal of the character multiple times and Kaley hasn't even been nominated once.

So... we're going to go there? Really? That proves nothing, as far as who's better. For the record I like both actresses even if I prefer character of Penny.

12 hours ago, Judith said:

1) Of course you can.

2) The Shamy love storyline has been in the show for seven seasons now which is more than enough time for it to have depth and a history, which it does. Mayim has also made Amy a very believable and relatable character - more relatable than Penny, for sure - which makes the audience want to root for her. It's easier to root for the bullied underdog than the unattainable trophy. It goes without saying though that acting ability takes part in that too.

3) Shamy have always been a very believable couple and especially in this last season, the love and domestic intimacy in their scenes is outshining even Howardette - not by much though. The couple who isn't believable at this stage is Lenny - even in 10.22 there was no love or warmth. Kaley was just saying her lines which made the Penny character feel empty and like her life had been sucked out of her. I would even go as far as to say that Penny is the writers' (Leonard's) reward which is why the Lenny relationship hasn't been developed as it should have been.

4) In general, Mayim has done a much better job with Amy than Kaley has with Penny which is something that is reflected not only on the show but also on the Emmy nominations that Mayim has acquired, something that Kaley hasn't managed to do in ten years as the sole female protagonist.

5) Of course Mayim has earned the right to care for her character. She has worked hard for Amy's portrayal and has made her a character more complex and life-like than Penny could ever hope to be (goes back to acting ability).

Sorry, I can't agree with you here, except for number 1.  

11 hours ago, vonmar said:

I going to have to disagree with you here.  Characters are created by writers.  What the performer does with the character is what is recognized in the awarding process.

It was the actress Mayim Bialik who was nominated for her performance as Amy Farrah Fowler....the character of AFF was not nominated for anything.

That is not what Tensor's saying. If you re-read his post you'll realize what he was saying.

Edited by Tensor
Edited comments directed at another member's opinion.
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11 minutes ago, sarah7 said:

I do say nominations mean something, not everything but definitely something. 

If you want to think a nom means something as to who is a better actor, that's fine, but it really doesn't.  I may see it a bit differently as I've gotten two local awards for acting, and people I think are much better actors (not to mention people whose opinions I respect, think so also), and in fact know more than I learned from them, haven't gotten any.  If it came down to one of them or me, I'm willing to be the director will take them over me every time. 

 

11 minutes ago, sarah7 said:

So, nominations (which you had firmly insisted mean nothing as to who is a better actor) can nonetheless become a valid measurement point as long as someone has at least two of them for two very different characters?

If you need me to specify fine.  Mayim's nominations for Amy, versus those who haven't been nominated mean nothing as far as who is a better actor.   More than one, for different character types or in different genres can mean something.  Although, as I point out, it's not infallible, but a good indication, simply because two very different characters lessen the chance of it being a serendipitous pairing.  

11 minutes ago, sarah7 said:

But if you don't know what supporting arguments are valid, how can you be so sure that the ones that are being given are not valid?

You don't have to know what arguments are valid, to know what arguments are invalid.  

11 minutes ago, sarah7 said:

And I could also point out that when they were younger both were nominated for the same award (different years, obviously) and that Mayim won it and Kaley didn't, also, if you want to point out that in the case the award both had won, Kaley's was one of a "higher category", I could also mention that Kaley apparently has won two worst actress awards last year (altough those were in a supporting actress category anyways), but, ok, since we have agreed that noms and wins are not really relevant, let's leave that aside.

That would be fine by me.  BTW, what awards are considered valid awards?  I usually go with other actors and critics, but you may have a different opinion.    

11 minutes ago, sarah7 said:

As I see it, acting is something that can be very difficult to measure in an objective way, because it appeals directly to the audience's emotions. Then that's why we retort to more easily measurable concepts, like nominations or salaries, 

But, if acting is difficult to measure in an objective way, doesn't that make the awards highly subjective? 

11 minutes ago, sarah7 said:

Also, while we are here fighting over who of them is the next Meryl Streep, none of them seem to be that much into acting, I mean, Mayim's passion seems to be writing and Kaley's seem to be horse riding. I can easily see them dedicating more time to their respective passions once TBBT is over, with the ocassional TV or film appearance and not breaking a sweat over getting an oscar nom ever.

Hehehehehe, yeah, we agree here.  Kaley's in a better position than Mayim, simply because she's made more salary and backend of the show.   Although, I really don't see either of them worrying about money.   I also don't see them giving up acting completely.  Maybe not a full series, but a guest staring role, a movie here or there.  Kaley did quite a few TV movies before and during the first years of TBBT.  Mayim recently did one and they both do voice over work.  So they will probably be able to keep as busy, acting wise, as they want.   

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Ugh the Kaley Mayim argument. I've said Before Kaley has more charisma on screen then Mayim. But her Emmy noms are based on character not acting ability. Kaley playing blonde girl next door materialistically. Is not giving you ALOT to work with. Mayim has never won an Emmy though. Neither has Kaley. Kaley has won other awards Mayim Hasent. But anyway this show, and it's actors we'll never win an Emmy anyway. Kaley has said she may leave the spotlight after the show ends. That maybe hard haha.

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10 hours ago, sarah7 said:

Perhaps for the same reason you immediately jumped to express your disagreement to the poster who claimed Mayim's superiority over Kaley solely because of nominations but had nothing to say to the poster who previously claimed that Mayim/Amy as an actor/character was even less important than the couch and had no right to have feelings about her fictional relationship? I mean, you care about your girl and I care about mine, I guess?

Best line I've read in this thread in a while!!!!

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14 hours ago, Kathy2611 said:

Actually, she does!!

I don't care who has what awards because I think that whole system, for TV and movies, is insane. I'm still upset because they wouldn't give Judi Dench an Oscar for Mrs. Brown but they gave her one for Shakespeare in Love. But I still think the best thing Mayim ever did was Beaches. I couldn't stand Blossom and I adore how she plays Amy, so I'm definitely not just rooting for Mayim in general.

7 hours ago, 3ku11 said:

Kaley has won other awards Mayim Hasent.

This was disproved earlier in the thread. But again, as had also been pointed out, this whole thing started because Mayim was being unfairly disparaged.

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16 hours ago, Judith said:

^Exactly.

...................

 

Please. Just accept that Mayim has these Emmy nominations, and not a certain someone else, for a reason.

But probably not the reason you think. First, Mayim is nominated in a different category than Kaley (supporting vs. lead). The playing field in Lead Actress for a Comedy is VERY tough most years. And the characters that the actresses are nominated for are sometimes more complicated/intricate/troubled/etc... . The supporting field is a little less competitive.

Another reason is the combination of actress/character. Amy started out as a sad sack/loner/single person. The WRITERS gave her a personality and a boyfriend. (Sorry, she still is sort of a sad sack.) Penny's character, while having evolved, was not such a change as Amys'.

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6 minutes ago, BigBang15 said:

But probably not the reason you think. First, Mayim is nominated in a different category than Kaley (supporting vs. lead). The playing field in Lead Actress for a Comedy is VERY tough most years. And the characters that the actresses are nominated for are sometimes more complicated/intricate/troubled/etc... . The supporting field is a little less competitive.

Another reason is the combination of actress/character. Amy started out as a sad sack/loner/single person. The WRITERS gave her a personality and a boyfriend. (Sorry, she still is sort of a sad sack.) Penny's character, while having evolved, was not such a change as Amys'.

Kaley submits her nom in the supporting actress category.

Edited by mirs1
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On 5/27/2017 at 1:04 PM, Stephen Hawking said:

And how many sad faces does Penny have?

From what I've seen, Penny's default reaction to sadness is to cry, as in The Barbarian Sublimation, The Bath Item Gift Hypothesis, The Cohabitation Formulation, and The Gorilla Experiment.

That's a meaningless question because KC is a brilliant facial actor who doesn't just go through a set of stock expressions. As for your second sentence, consider the scene in 418 (I think that was the ep) where Leonard tells Penny he can't see her any more because Priya doesn't like it. Penny's "Goodbye Leonard" held more genuine and affecting sadness than all Amy's irritating misery.

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