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Debate Zone
[Spoilers] Season 10 Shipping Lanes

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Posted

4 minutes ago, JohnPhD said:

That was A trying to make trouble in P & L's marriage.

Trying to make trouble in P&L's marriage, or simply trying to separate Sheldon and Leonard a bit?

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On 17/7/2016 at 5:35 PM, JohnPhD said:

I've noticed that Amy has said several times that she's jealous of Penny and Sheldon's closeness, and she always says it to Leonard. Do the writers expect us to make something of this? It would be quite IC that Amy is trying to make Leonard similarly jealous towards Penny. Like when A told L how P gets S to change the RA to get her way, that was A trying to make trouble in P & L's marriage.. It's a flaw in L's character that he doesn't tell A to F O on these occasions.

Several times? Please provide evidence for these "several times", because I only remember one time in season 7. (I don't expect an answer but I just had to ask)

I seriously doubt that Amy wanted to cause trouble in Penny and Leonard's marriage. I think she was just annoyed at that point and just tired of watching the other three dance around the living arrangements. As for Leonard, if he's annoyed with something, he can open his mouth and say so.

 

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3 minutes ago, veejay said:

l_16.gif

:shy:

I guess we can count that as an exclamation of annoyance :D

Anyway, the thing is, Amy isn't above manipulating/scheming/telling something blunt or inappropriate if the mood strikes her. I like that about her but I guess if she does it in the expense of your favourite character you're not going to like it. Also her and Leonard aren't the best of friends which adds to that scene with her not really caring about him.

Let's not forget though that she didn't lie and she actually did Leonard a favour by informing him of what was going on behind his back. She did reveal what must have been a secret but IMO she did it out of frustration.

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Posted (edited)

I personally think Amy was just trying to seperate Leonard and Sheldon. I Think she is moer annoyed at SP dynamic, and living arrangements now. Like When Amy told Leonard, Penny get's Sheldon to change the RA to get her way. OR how it was established Penny used Sheldon to get to Leonard. I mean I Think Amy manupilates when neccessary. She was trying to help out Leonard. I Thought it was sneaky lol. But neccessary. GO Amy far as I'm concernced. And Leonard has never cared about S and P Bro and Sister dynamic. If he was ever annoyed, he would of said so. Apart from S7 Amy has never had a problem. Maybe its just the fans :D. 

Edited by 3ku11
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12 hours ago, Judith said:

 she actually did Leonard a favour by informing him of what was going on behind his back. She did reveal what must have been a secret but IMO she did it out of frustration.

Do you really think it's OK for an outsider to tell one partner in a marriage something about the other partner that will anger the first partner? Amy needs to be told very firmly to keep her nose out of L & P's business (which Leonard is very much to blame for not doing here). It also shows the utter falseness of Amy's claim to be Penny's friend.

Another example of trouble-making was in the previous episode 920 when Sheldon revealed Leonard's secret savings account. It might be claimed that child-man Sheldon doesn't know the difference between humour and malice, but it illustrates the exasperating idiocy of L&P in taking S&A along with them - you'd think they'd take every opportunity for a break from Sheldon. In Sheldon's defence, he has said on several occasions that he cannot keep a secret, so L was an idiot to tell him. But I guess that was just a plot device to get on to L&P's finances.

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33 minutes ago, JohnPhD said:

Another example of trouble-making was in the previous episode 920 when Sheldon revealed Leonard's secret savings account.

Maybe it was revenge, for Penny using Sheldon's toothbrush to clean the sink.

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5 minutes ago, Stephen Hawking said:

Maybe it was revenge, for Penny using Sheldon's toothbrush to clean the sink.

Yes, that's a possibility -  a slightly different interpretation of Sheldon. Which makes it really foolish of Leonard to reveal something that's going to anger someone who knows an important secret of his. L is really not thinking things through.

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5 minutes ago, JohnPhD said:

Yes, that's a possibility -  a slightly different interpretation of Sheldon. Which makes it really foolish of Leonard to reveal something that's going to anger someone who knows an important secret of his. L is really not thinking things through.

It was obvious that something was going to come out during that game that was going to really piss someone off. Leonard should have been aware of this and should have had it in his mind that Sheldon would blab about something of his if he talked about that toothbrush.

Leonard wasn't actually that mad it came out, in fact I think deep down he is probably glad it did.

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Posted (edited)

12 minutes ago, Jonny83 said:

It was obvious that something was going to come out during that game that was going to really piss someone off. Leonard should have been aware of this and should have had it in his mind that Sheldon would blab about something of his if he talked about that toothbrush.

Leonard wasn't actually that mad it came out, in fact I think deep down he is probably glad it did.

You know let's not handicap Sheldon. HE needs to take responsiblity too. He has often came in between Lenny. Not intentionally, but he has. Not that I am agreeing with Johnphd. When it comes to joint accounts, I think Leonard wanted it to come out. I mean I remember s7 his dreamer comment. And later getting in Leonard's business when it came down to support. So you know, these character are not perfect. But I am so glad the show finnally addressed all of it in Viewing Party, it is healthy. 

Edited by 3ku11
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Posted (edited)

4 hours ago, JohnPhD said:

Do you really think it's OK for an outsider to tell one partner in a marriage something about the other partner that will anger the first partner? Amy needs to be told very firmly to keep her nose out of L & P's business (which Leonard is very much to blame for not doing here). It also shows the utter falseness of Amy's claim to be Penny's friend.

Another example of trouble-making was in the previous episode 920 when Sheldon revealed Leonard's secret savings account. It might be claimed that child-man Sheldon doesn't know the difference between humour and malice, but it illustrates the exasperating idiocy of L&P in taking S&A along with them - you'd think they'd take every opportunity for a break from Sheldon. In Sheldon's defence, he has said on several occasions that he cannot keep a secret, so L was an idiot to tell him. But I guess that was just a plot device to get on to L&P's finances.

Whether it's ok or not depends on the situation. I'm not a fan of the notion that the married couple's relationship is sacred and not to be touched by anyone since life just doesn't work that way. Anyway, particularly about Leonard and Penny, it's not like they have established these firm boundaries between them as a couple and other people. I mean, they practically share their marriage with Sheldon and they've been doing that since the beginning. They live by Sheldon's stupid RA, so why should Amy be blamed for informing L of something going on with it behind his back?

In any case, the characters of this show are all up each other's business most of the time so Amy keeping out of it is going to be a rare thing. Like I said, I think she behaved like that out of frustration, because she could see the ridiculousness of it all while L remained clueless. She has her flaws and maybe she could have handled this better but she's my favourite character anyway and I like most of her flaws while you hate her so we're not going to see it the same way. Oh and while I don't get how Amy and Penny are friends since their friendship chemistry is severely lacking to me I believe that Amy is genuine in calling Penny her friend. She just has her flaws and sometimes even treats her friends like Sheldon does (for ex. with that experiment in s.8) but I'm sure that like Sheldon, she loves them.

Btw, in the Meemaw episode Amy was surprised and IIRC she looked angry that Penny didn't tell her about the ring. At that moment Penny decided it was her time to vanish so we could argue that she knew that what she did (not telling her) would anger Amy and yet she did it, so it's not like Penny is the innocent victim here.

Shamy and Lenny are friends so they're going to go places together. It was Amy who convinced Sheldon to go so it's not like Leonard and Penny were pleading with them or anything.

Leonard was the one who started that round of the game by talking about the toothbrush secret, so yes, he was an idiot for that. I guess that's his character flaw?What I think happened is that Sheldon took that as a sign that he should say something similar to be able to win the game, so that's why when Penny stormed out he looked at her reaction and said he won. It wasn't about not being able to keep a secret.

But anyway, you could call Leonard and Penny idiots for many things when it comes to Sheldon, but the bottom line is that they're friends and they've put up with each other's bullshit for years, so why stop now?

Edited by Judith
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Posted (edited)

We only get a brief glimpse into their lives so it's difficult to understand at times why they are friends and why they love each other. This is why I like for example the Troll Manifestation episode, which gave us a glimpse into why Sheldon and Leonard are so close and enjoy working together. It also ties in with the episode when Professor Proton asks Leonard about why they are friends and Leonard's response about working together. I wish the show showed more scenes of Sheldon and Leonard working well together and making a success of it because I would imagine that happens frequently between them but we just don't see it.

Edited by Jonny83

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Posted

1 hour ago, Judith said:

Whether it's ok or not depends on the situation. I'm not a fan of the notion that the married couple's relationship is sacred and not to be touched by anyone since life just doesn't work that way. Anyway, particularly about Leonard and Penny, it's not like they have established these firm boundaries between them as a couple and other people. I mean, they practically share their marriage with Sheldon and they've been doing that since the beginning. They live by Sheldon's stupid RA, so why should Amy be blamed for informing L of something going on with it behind his back?

In any case, the characters of this show are all up each other's business most of the time so Amy keeping out of it is going to be a rare thing. Like I said, I think she behaved like that out of frustration, because she could see the ridiculousness of it all while L remained clueless. She has her flaws and maybe she could have handled this better but she's my favourite character anyway and I like most of her flaws while you hate her so we're not going to see it the same way. Oh and while I don't get how Amy and Penny are friends since their friendship chemistry is severely lacking to me I believe that Amy is genuine in calling Penny her friend. She just has her flaws and sometimes even treats her friends like Sheldon does (for ex. with that experiment in s.8) but I'm sure that like Sheldon, she loves them.

Btw, in the Meemaw episode Amy was surprised and IIRC she looked angry that Penny didn't tell her about the ring. At that moment Penny decided it was her time to vanish so we could argue that she knew that what she did (not telling her) would anger Amy and yet she did it, so it's not like Penny is the innocent victim here.

Shamy and Lenny are friends so they're going to go places together. It was Amy who convinced Sheldon to go so it's not like Leonard and Penny were pleading with them or anything.

Leonard was the one who started that round of the game by talking about the toothbrush secret, so yes, he was an idiot for that. I guess that's his character flaw?What I think happened is that Sheldon took that as a sign that he should say something similar to be able to win the game, so that's why when Penny stormed out he looked at her reaction and said he won. It wasn't about not being able to keep a secret.

But anyway, you could call Leonard and Penny idiots for many things when it comes to Sheldon, but the bottom line is that they're friends and they've put up with each other's bullshit for years, so why stop now?

I generally agree with the fact that there's a huge lack of boundaries among all characters (and in particular the big three), so it's inevitable that from time to time at turn they are going to spill the beans about some embarrassing situation which is none of their business. That is part of the comedy in the show, sometimes it's more funny than others (and in 9x21 it was not funny at all), but it's a recurring scheme. Anyway, I think that Penny and Leonard did the right thing in keeping Sheldon's secret about the ring, even if  Amy was angry when she knew about that. I mean, when Lenny saw the ring for the first time, Shamy were broken up and, as soon as Sheldon returned from his unlucky walk to Amy's home in 9.7, he had changed his mind about proposing. Let Amy know she had been so close to something she had always wanted at that point was cruel towards her, and embarrassing for Sheldon. After they reconciled, was even more useless. Most of us hates that Amy knows about the ring in the first place, Sheldon evidently is not very close to propose yet and for sure he wasn't close to propose in the Meemaw episode, why telling her?

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Posted

5 hours ago, mirs1 said:

I generally agree with the fact that there's a huge lack of boundaries among all characters (and in particular the big three), so it's inevitable that from time to time at turn they are going to spill the beans about some embarrassing situation which is none of their business. That is part of the comedy in the show, sometimes it's more funny than others (and in 9x21 it was not funny at all), but it's a recurring scheme. Anyway, I think that Penny and Leonard did the right thing in keeping Sheldon's secret about the ring, even if  Amy was angry when she knew about that. I mean, when Lenny saw the ring for the first time, Shamy were broken up and, as soon as Sheldon returned from his unlucky walk to Amy's home in 9.7, he had changed his mind about proposing. Let Amy know she had been so close to something she had always wanted at that point was cruel towards her, and embarrassing for Sheldon. After they reconciled, was even more useless. Most of us hates that Amy knows about the ring in the first place, Sheldon evidently is not very close to propose yet and for sure he wasn't close to propose in the Meemaw episode, why telling her?

Yes, Leonard and Penny did the right thing. My point was that judging from Penny's reaction in the Meemaw episode she knew that it would anger Amy if she found out and yet went on and did it anyway. So it's not like Penny doesn't struggle with these things.

I don't know what will happen with the ring but it is weird that Amy knows about it. Maybe the writers are thinking of doing something completely different this time, because after H and B and P and L's proposals some variety was needed. So maybe they're going to handle this in a more original away (we are talking about Shamy after all).

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Posted

In some previous posts. there are personal comments (hint telling other posters they hate this or that character is not allowed).  Since I don't have time to go through them an edit them, those posts and their replies have been hidden. I have now gone through and edited out those comments that caused the posts to be hidden, and as a result, I've unhidden the posts.  The first line in this post still stands: telling other posters they hate a certain character isn't allowed.  Feel free to discuss the characters, not other posters. 

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On ‎7‎/‎30‎/‎2016 at 10:09 AM, Judith said:

1) Whether it's ok or not depends on the situation. I'm not a fan of the notion that the married couple's relationship is sacred and not to be touched by anyone since life just doesn't work that way. Anyway, particularly about Leonard and Penny, it's not like they have established these firm boundaries between them as a couple and other people. I mean, they practically share their marriage with Sheldon and they've been doing that since the beginning. They live by Sheldon's stupid RA, so why should Amy be blamed for informing L of something going on with it behind his back?

2) In any case, the characters of this show are all up each other's business most of the time so Amy keeping out of it is going to be a rare thing. Like I said, I think she behaved like that out of frustration, because she could see the ridiculousness of it all while L remained clueless. She has her flaws and maybe she could have handled this better but she's my favourite character anyway and I like most of her flaws while you hate her so we're not going to see it the same way. Oh and while I don't get how Amy and Penny are friends since their friendship chemistry is severely lacking to me I believe that Amy is genuine in calling Penny her friend. She just has her flaws and sometimes even treats her friends like Sheldon does (for ex. with that experiment in s.8) but I'm sure that like Sheldon, she loves them.

3) Btw, in the Meemaw episode Amy was surprised and IIRC she looked angry that Penny didn't tell her about the ring. At that moment Penny decided it was her time to vanish so we could argue that she knew that what she did (not telling her) would anger Amy and yet she did it, so it's not like Penny is the innocent victim here.

Shamy and Lenny are friends so they're going to go places together. It was Amy who convinced Sheldon to go so it's not like Leonard and Penny were pleading with them or anything.

4) Leonard was the one who started that round of the game by talking about the toothbrush secret, so yes, he was an idiot for that. I guess that's his character flaw?What I think happened is that Sheldon took that as a sign that he should say something similar to be able to win the game, so that's why when Penny stormed out he looked at her reaction and said he won. It wasn't about not being able to keep a secret.

5) But anyway, you could call Leonard and Penny idiots for many things when it comes to Sheldon, but the bottom line is that they're friends and they've put up with each other's bullshit for years, so why stop now?

1) I don't think it depends on the situation. The relationship between a couple is indeed sacred IMO even if minor transgressions can happen once in a while. Amy should be blamed for informing something to L because she should know better.

2) The fact that Amy 's your favorite character doesn't make it right. The problem I have with Amy treating her friends like Sheldon does is that she's more socially aware than Sheldon and not as clueless, even if I believe that Sheldon is less clueless everyday, and does it out of selfishness (lately). JMO btw.

3) Not Penny's place (or obligation) to tell her about the ring.

4) Calling Leonard being an idiot a character flaw? Niiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiice one.

5) Because IMO it has come to a tipping point.

 

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Posted

@Carlos,

I don't worry too much about Shamy because it's  not why I watch. I will say that Amy does seem to have more free range of action than Sheldon, who has been increasingly held hostage to his innate peculiarities. Amy has had the chance to consider her options -and dallied with the idea of Dave - but she snapped right back to her position as soon as she had the opportunity. It seems she is a captive to her inclinations as is Sheldon. This might be great for them as a unit, but if she is capable of overlooking around Sheldon's ethical shortcomings I feel that she, like Sheldon, is more inclined to favour ends over means. 

Why she persists in her tolerance of Sheldon and his utilitarianism... Must be love. 

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35 minutes ago, Nogravitasatall said:

@Carlos,

I don't worry too much about Shamy because it's  not why I watch. I will say that Amy does seem to have more free range of action than Sheldon, who has been increasingly held hostage to his innate peculiarities. Amy has had the chance to consider her options -and dallied with the idea of Dave - but she snapped right back to her position as soon as she had the opportunity. It seems she is a captive to her inclinations as is Sheldon. This might be great for them as a unit, but if she is capable of overlooking around Sheldon's ethical shortcomings I feel that she, like Sheldon, is more inclined to favour ends over means. 

Why she persists in her tolerance of Sheldon and his utilitarianism... Must be love. 

Yeah…but this should be a different "soap". :icon_wink:

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3 hours ago, Carlos said:

1) I don't think it depends on the situation. The relationship between a couple is indeed sacred IMO even if minor transgressions can happen once in a while. Amy should be blamed for informing something to L because she should know better.

2) The fact that Amy 's your favorite character doesn't make it right. The problem I have with Amy treating her friends like Sheldon does is that she's more socially aware than Sheldon and not as clueless, even if I believe that Sheldon is less clueless everyday, and does it out of selfishness (lately). JMO btw.

3) Not Penny's place (or obligation) to tell her about the ring.

4) Calling Leonard being an idiot a character flaw? Niiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiice one.

5) Because IMO it has come to a tipping point.

 

1) Like I said I don't believe that a couple's relationship is sacred and since we're talking about Lenny I'd be willing to bet that they don't either, judging from how they interact with Sheldon and how they shared the first year of their marriage with him. Taking into account all of that, Amy telling Leonard about Penny manipulating Sheldon about the RA seems redundant. I mean we're talking about 3 people living together and very occasionally (nowadays) squabbling over a contract that tells them how to live. What Amy did was minuscule in comparison. Unless you wanted Leonard to keep being in the dark, of course. Penny was the one doing the manipulating and if you consider the circumstances Amy did Leonard a favour.

2) I don't remember saying anywhere that anything Amy does is right because I like her. At most I said that I like her misbehaviors because I like her or that I can overlook them.

3) By her reaction in Meemaw she knew that not telling Amy could cause trouble between Amy and her so one could argue that she did something knowing her friend wouldn't like if she found out, which of course is a minus for Penny. And while I'd prefer not to degenerate to this type of arguing I can't help but say that it wasn't Amy's place/obligation either not to tell Leonard about Penny (which goes with what I said in paragraph 1).

4) Whatever. Would you prefer naive?

5) Even then, they'll continue to put up with each other. Maybe the living arrangements will change when one of them reaches their own limit which apparently hasn't been reached yet. Though it looks like Amy is starting to lose her patience with this nonsense which I'm very glad about. Anyway, we don't know how the writers will deal with it. 

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4 hours ago, Judith said:

1) Like I said I don't believe that a couple's relationship is sacred and since we're talking about Lenny I'd be willing to bet that they don't either, judging from how they interact with Sheldon and how they shared the first year of their marriage with him. Taking into account all of that, Amy telling Leonard about Penny manipulating Sheldon about the RA seems redundant. I mean we're talking about 3 people living together and very occasionally (nowadays) squabbling over a contract that tells them how to live. What Amy did was minuscule in comparison. Unless you wanted Leonard to keep being in the dark, of course. Penny was the one doing the manipulating and if you consider the circumstances Amy did Leonard a favour.

2) I don't remember saying anywhere that anything Amy does is right because I like her. At most I said that I like her misbehaviors because I like her or that I can overlook them.

3) By her reaction in Meemaw she knew that not telling Amy could cause trouble between Amy and her so one could argue that she did something knowing her friend wouldn't like if she found out, which of course is a minus for Penny. And while I'd prefer not to degenerate to this type of arguing I can't help but say that it wasn't Amy's place/obligation either not to tell Leonard about Penny (which goes with what I said in paragraph 1).

4) Whatever. Would you prefer naive?

5) Even then, they'll continue to put up with each other. Maybe the living arrangements will change when one of them reaches their own limit which apparently hasn't been reached yet. Though it looks like Amy is starting to lose her patience with this nonsense which I'm very glad about. Anyway, we don't know how the writers will deal with it. 

Well, isn't it how Amy deals with it?

Either she has agency, because  else why would one care, or she is a fiction, so how can one care *sigh*.  

I don't see how one can attribute the good to Amy and the bad to the writers. If Amy does something it's either all Amy or it's  all the writers. If you think at all there is an Amy at all then she has to cop to the lot. Otherwise it's "the devil made me do it" dodge. :( 

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3 minutes ago, Nogravitasatall said:

I don't see how one can attribute the good to Amy and the bad to the writers. If Amy does something it's either all Amy or it's  all the writers. If you think at all there is an Amy at all then she has to cop to the lot. Otherwise it's "the devil made me do it" dodge. :( 

That's exactly what happens with Sheldon and Leonard, though...Whatever Sheldon does, it's his fault, whatever Leonard does, it's the writers' fault.

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29 minutes ago, Nogravitasatall said:

Well, isn't it how Amy deals with it?

Either she has agency, because  else why would one care, or she is a fiction, so how can one care *sigh*.  

I don't see how one can attribute the good to Amy and the bad to the writers. If Amy does something it's either all Amy or it's  all the writers. If you think at all there is an Amy at all then she has to cop to the lot. Otherwise it's "the devil made me do it" dodge. :( 

I meant we don't know how the writers will deal with the living arrangements, what will be the reason they decide to break them up and how it will unfold.

 

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8 minutes ago, Judith said:

I meant we don't know how the writers will deal with the living arrangements, what will be the reason they decide to break them up and how it will unfold.

 

Fingers crossed for a peaceful and smooth transition, though every other time it has been mentioned there has been angst so I won't get my hopes up. How they actually resolve it and what happens afterwards is just as important to me as the actual decision.

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19 minutes ago, mirs1 said:

That's exactly what happens with Sheldon and Leonard, though...Whatever Sheldon does, it's his fault, whatever Leonard does, it's the writers' fault.

Is it?  I'd say rather that is the partisan response that we all suffer from. We should fight that response in ourselves. Or fold.

But  - if you want to talk about Leonard's most significant fall from grace (s8.24) - it is like he said; he was drunk, on a boat a long way from home and he was not his best self.  Not pretty but then later he had insight into his failings and was remorseful. Afterwards, eventually, he owned it - to the extent that he almost completely lost what he had been struggling towards for eight years. He faced his weakness and his guilt, 'fessed up and pleaded for forgiveness. And his now spouse had the strength and wisdom to grant that forgiveness, luckily for him. And I'd submit he won't relapse. Not once a cheater, always a cheater - just once an idiot.

It's not Leonard's default setting to be a dick. Not saying he isn't one sometimes. But he does recognise when he is one, and it makes him uncomfortable.. My complaint, now, on the ret-conn is that it was so clumsily inserted post-hoc. They pulled that one out of their... hats.

Others have different defaults, that trend otherwise, to my mind. And they have no insight or remorse. 

Of course, I could be talking out of my own partisan... hat. :) 

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