Tensor

Debate Zone
[Spoilers] Season 10 Shipping Lanes

763 posts in this topic

Posted

On 15/05/2017 at 3:55 PM, Carlos said:

But a lot has indeed changed. If you take into consideration the amount of screen time that is devoted to Sheldon, for example you can understand why people think that the writers consider him a god. Or if not a god, at least their golden boy. Also, IMO their attitude (the writers') has changed from writing a fairly balanced sitcom to just concentrating on Sheldon. The biggest insult was when he and Amy split how that was shown 95 % from Sheldon's point of view. If you need another example of Sheldon's god-like status in the writers' eyes look no further than the 200 episode, or even S10 finale. Everything is written form the POV of how it affects Sheldon. I guess it is fine if you love the character, but good story telling it is not.

I think that was fair enough: Sheldon is a primary character and Amy's just his appendage. What I thought was insulting was how much time it was given cf Lenny's marriage. And there was really no need to show Amy's improbable dating while split up..

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Posted

35 minutes ago, Tensor said:

I haven't gone back .........

Maybe this will be my summer project.  Check on various different screen times for each of the years.   

:scratchhead:

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Posted (edited)

44 minutes ago, Tensor said:

I haven't gone back to check on that.  If you give me a few weeks, I'll check it for you.  And, a question, for two and three, do you want just Lenny vs Sheldon?  The problem there would be Sheldon isn't alone very much.  Or would you want a comparison to Sheldon with others, except Lenny) and Lenny with others, except Lenny, along with Shenny time?  Or, just total screen time for each of the characters, and each of the couples, no matter who they are with.   

For season four, would you want a comparison of alone time for Lenny and Shamy?  Or time with Shamy and others, except Lenny) and Lenny and others, except Shamy.  

I'm asking as there are so many different ways to separate it.

Maybe this will be my summer project.  Check on various different screen times for each of the years.   

 

For season 2 and 3 , I wanted to know maybe just Lenny vs Shenny vs Shelnard  time ? Just the big 3 relationships. 

Or if that is also too vague, maybe just total screen times for individual character ? 

For season 4 - Lenny alone  time vs Shamy alone  time ?

Edited by serena_1995

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Posted

2 minutes ago, serena_1995 said:

 

For season 2 and 3 , I wanted to know maybe just Lenny vs Shenny vs Shelnard alone time ? Just the big 3 relationships. 

Or if that is also too vague, maybe just total screen times for individual character ? 

For season 4 - Lenny alone time vs Shamy alone time ?

As I said, I'll get the screen time for all characters and couples (including Shelnard and Rajard).   But, within all that,  you'll get the info you want.  

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Posted

3 hours ago, JohnPhD said:

I think that was fair enough: Sheldon is a primary character and Amy's just his appendage. What I thought was insulting was how much time it was given cf Lenny's marriage. And there was really no need to show Amy's improbable dating while split up..

I understand the dynamics involved in main characters and supporting characters but IMO it was still too one sided. And regardless of who's a primary character and who isn't a couple is supposed to be 50/50, right? I know that's never the case, but 95/5 seems too much of a tilt.

 

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Posted

12 minutes ago, Carlos said:

I understand the dynamics involved in main characters and supporting characters but IMO it was still too one sided. And regardless of who's a primary character and who isn't a couple is supposed to be 50/50, right? I know that's never the case, but 95/5 seems too much of a tilt.

That is because your 95/5 claim is completely made up nonsense. If Tensor were a Shamy fan he probably would have already corrected you a dozen times about who got how much screen time devoted to their side of the story. Fact is Amy got her own dating storyline the moment she she broke up with Sheldon and Howardette / Stuart told her she deserves someone better. We got some development on that almost every episode alongside with how she's doing emotionally whenever there's a confrontation with Sheldon. She's even musing about what went wrong while not forgetting what she likes about him and their time together.

Meanwhile on Sheldon's side of things he just was an ass for no reason for two episodes. Then while Penny's bachelorette party was more about how Amy deals with the breakup there was nothing from Sheldon. In the 4th ep he finally starts to see that he may not have been the best boyfriend, after that he's also pushed into this "you should date someone"  advice that in the end only serves to kick Amy's dating plot into the next phase. The next episode is about the gang helping Amy to find a date in the worst way possible only to find she's already been to dates. We then see her with Dave in the subsequent episodes. Meanwhile Sheldon gets again an episode of nothing with regards to the breakup, followed by the Spock episode that is carrying the biggest load of his character work here, followed by another non serious attempt at dating which fails because he's still hung up on Amy.

So all in all it was pretty balanced. Sure, there are episodes where Amy only had short scenes, but there were also episodes where Sheldon's plot had nothing to do with the breakup. They painted a pretty clear picture of Amy's situation all through the breakup and just because you didn't like the resolution doesn't mean it didn't happen.

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Posted

Parity in terms of screen-time doesn't necessarily mean you will get better quality.

I don't know this for a fact but I suspect Howardette probably had less screen-time than Lenny (depends on how you break it down, do you consider screen-time only when the couples are alone? Because Howardette also had Raj and Stuart or just the one of them at times with them) and they had an AMAZING season.

Better storylines for all yes! Making sure equal screen-time is not would I would be looking for if I was a disgruntled fan. You just never know if you gave Lenny more screen-time based on the writing for them this season you may get storylines of the quality of the Fetal Kick Catalyst. Would you want what 8-10 mins of that every week?

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Posted

47 minutes ago, Jonny said:

Parity in terms of screen-time doesn't necessarily mean you will get better quality.

Here's the difference.  Can you unambiguously state what quality is for different people?   I can't.  

However, I can unambiguously state and compare screen time.    Quality, as an opinion on the show, cannot be compared.  

Quote

Better storylines for all yes! Making sure equal screen-time is not would I would be looking for if I was a disgruntled fan. You just never know if you gave Lenny more screen-time based on the writing for them this season you may get storylines of the quality of the Fetal Kick Catalyst. Would you want what 8-10 mins of that every week?

As opposed to the 1:45 seconds of screen time Lenny got in one episode this year, where they didn't do anything more than comment on Shamy?    Some Lenny's were happy with what they saw as the quality this year and probably would have been thrilled for more screen time.  

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Posted (edited)

I don't think it matters how much screen time Leonard and Penny got in previous seasons. Since Season 3 it has been shared with Sheldon. Or it turned out to Sheldon is central focus Post Season 6. It is not about Quantity of Screen time, but Quality. And in Lenny's case Quantity too lol. All this talk about what percieved screen time Lenny got. If they would be happy for 8-10 mins. Passe anyway. In one episode like Tensor said got 1:45 seconds of screen time. They have 24 episodes in a season. And used most of that to focus on Shamy and/or Howardette. When they did focus on Lenny they were either reacting to Shamy. Or standing behind kitchen island. And/or making a rare apperence by the doorway. When they did focus on Lenny based stories. It was rehashed ideas, and clichies seen in many other sitcoms and tv shows. Repeated Cannon. And not even good repeated cannon. Episodes like Romance Racalibration and Emotion Detections. Were lazy, and poorly thought out. And were a mockey of actually good episodes like Guitar Amplification and Recombination Hypothesis.

TBH They feel like props to me. The show are using Leonard and Penny as props to enhance everyone else around them. They are not utilizing them at all. Which is a shame because Johnny and Kaley still have undeniable chemistry on screen. The showrunners are just luckey they have such a great cast. Because they would be screwed without them. I guess you could argue Season 6 they had a ton of screen time. But it was still balanced out with Shamy. I think because they evolved them so much that season. Scenes like Penny saying I love you to Leonard for the first time, just won't happen these days. Its like when it comes to Lenny, they are running on fumes. And I Expect the last (hopefully) 48 episodes to be centred around Shamy. And phoning it in for the rest of the show and their characters. 

Edited by 3ku11

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Posted

5 hours ago, April said:

That is because your 95/5 claim is completely made up nonsense. If Tensor were a Shamy fan he probably would have already corrected you a dozen times about who got how much screen time devoted to their side of the story. Fact is Amy got her own dating storyline the moment she she broke up with Sheldon and Howardette / Stuart told her she deserves someone better. We got some development on that almost every episode alongside with how she's doing emotionally whenever there's a confrontation with Sheldon. She's even musing about what went wrong while not forgetting what she likes about him and their time together.

Meanwhile on Sheldon's side of things he just was an ass for no reason for two episodes. Then while Penny's bachelorette party was more about how Amy deals with the breakup there was nothing from Sheldon. In the 4th ep he finally starts to see that he may not have been the best boyfriend, after that he's also pushed into this "you should date someone"  advice that in the end only serves to kick Amy's dating plot into the next phase. The next episode is about the gang helping Amy to find a date in the worst way possible only to find she's already been to dates. We then see her with Dave in the subsequent episodes. Meanwhile Sheldon gets again an episode of nothing with regards to the breakup, followed by the Spock episode that is carrying the biggest load of his character work here, followed by another non serious attempt at dating which fails because he's still hung up on Amy.

So all in all it was pretty balanced. Sure, there are episodes where Amy only had short scenes, but there were also episodes where Sheldon's plot had nothing to do with the breakup. They painted a pretty clear picture of Amy's situation all through the breakup and just because you didn't like the resolution doesn't mean it didn't happen.

My claim of 95/5 is not nonsense. Can you tell me why Amy split from Sheldon? No, it wasn't explored, and while some of your examples might be true, it was all done from the point of view of how it affected Sheldon even most of Amy's dating. Can you tell me why she got back with him? No because it wasn't explored either. Amy's feelings were not explored ad nauseam like Sheldon's were. Heck, we even got I episode in particular dedicated to it, when Sheldon reverted to 2001. Did we get one full episode that dealt with Amy's feelings. I don't think so.

And if you don't know screen time, please don't use it against my point, unless you have verifiable data. Furthermore some of your examples even prove the point I was trying to make on how what we see is how everything is affecting Sheldon

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Posted

Well the Shamy break up was definately seen from Sheldon's point of view. As the whole show is these days...

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Posted

2 hours ago, Carlos said:

My claim of 95/5 is not nonsense. Can you tell me why Amy split from Sheldon? No, it wasn't explored, and while some of your examples might be true, it was all done from the point of view of how it affected Sheldon even most of Amy's dating. Can you tell me why she got back with him? No because it wasn't explored either. Amy's feelings were not explored ad nauseam like Sheldon's were. Heck, we even got I episode in particular dedicated to it, when Sheldon reverted to 2001. Did we get one full episode that dealt with Amy's feelings. I don't think so.

Yes, I can.

Why did Amy split from Sheldon?

-> 8x24: First she just wants break to take some time off to re-think their relationship

Amy: Being your girlfriend is so challenging. Emotionally, physically. I’ve been incredibly patient for years. [...] I love you, but I need some time to take a step back and re-evaluate our situation.

-> 9x01: Then after Sheldon doesn't give her that time and pushes her too much she snaps

Amy: You know what, Sheldon, you’ve made this really easy. You’re immature, you’re selfish, you just insulted me to my face. I don’t need any more time to think. We’re broken up.

-> 9x08: During her date with Dave she talks further about her relationship issues with Sheldon

Amy: After five years, it was just feeling like more work than it should be.

She also mentions Sheldon bringing work to their dates (which matches was Sheldon said earlier about him neglecting her) and giving her crappy presents.

Why did Amy get back with him?

All through the breakup she's showing signs of regret and being reluctant to move forward. She's still defending Sheldon and annoyed whenever anyone insults him, when she spends time with him at the aquarium she realises how much she missed him, and just as her breaking up with him was impulsive due to the circumstances her wanting him back was just as much her acting on her gut feeling. Sheldon didn't get over her and she didn't get over him. Simple as that.

2 hours ago, Carlos said:

And if you don't know screen time, please don't use it against my point, unless you have verifiable data. Furthermore some of your examples even prove the point I was trying to make on how what we see is how everything is affecting Sheldon

Okay, you know what, S9 is on Netflix so let me just go through the episodes and tally up the numbers. From 9x01 to 9x09 the times for the breakup/dating related scenes and plots amount to roughly...

Shamy shared scenes: 21:15 min

Sheldon scenes: 25:25 min

Amy scenes: 18:20 min

And Amy's storyline was about how she is dealing with the breakup and the new dating situation. In fact Amy is more able to communicate her feelings while Sheldon's arc was all about how he's suppressing his until his façade finally cracks in 9x07. Before that it's all a lot of guesswork what is going on with him as he himself has a hard time understanding his emotions.

Bottom line: Just because you're completely dismissing her viewpoint doesn't mean it wasn't there. And the numbers are nowhere near your 95/5 claim to back up your point.

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Posted

15 hours ago, hokie3457 said:

From Ramona's first appearence!!!

Yeah, but the second time Penny feels to go crackers. :shy:

crap1.gif.46493a213db364a0003426861c9c6be1.gif

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Posted (edited)

19 minutes ago, veejay said:

Yeah, but the second time Penny feels to go crackers. :shy:

crap1.gif.46493a213db364a0003426861c9c6be1.gif

Disappointed they didn't repeat that line in that episode? I think when Ramona and Sheldon left for 4B they could have fitted that line in there as Penny was trying to rally the troops. Maybe the writers forgot that line, it was 8 years ago lol.

Edited by Jonny

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Posted

16 hours ago, Tensor said:

I haven't gone back to check on that.  If you give me a few weeks, I'll check it for you.  And, a question, for two and three, do you want just Lenny vs Sheldon?  The problem there would be Sheldon isn't alone very much.  Or would you want a comparison to Sheldon with others, except Lenny) and Lenny with others, except Lenny, along with Shenny time?  Or, just total screen time for each of the characters, and each of the couples, no matter who they are with.   

For season four, would you want a comparison of alone time for Lenny and Shamy?  Or time with Shamy and others, except Lenny) and Lenny and others, except Shamy.  

I'm asking as there are so many different ways to separate it.

Maybe this will be my summer project.  Check on various different screen times for each of the years.   

data nerd question: How does one define 'sheldon scene'? Or 'howard scene' etc.? Does a scene with the character in it count? Does the character have to have speaking lines? Or does the character not even need to be present, but be referred to?

and also, that's quite a lot of footage. Do you do it manually or use some sort of scraping tool? (pushes glasses up nose)

er - PM me, if I'm boring everyone else!

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Posted (edited)

58 minutes ago, wowbagger said:

data nerd question: How does one define 'sheldon scene'? Or 'howard scene' etc.? Does a scene with the character in it count? Does the character have to have speaking lines? Or does the character not even need to be present, but be referred to?

and also, that's quite a lot of footage. Do you do it manually or use some sort of scraping tool?* (pushes glasses up nose)

er - PM me, if I'm boring everyone else!

*Highly trained Oompa Loompas . Or, given ... things,  one of those one-eyed minions. Stuart, maybe. :) 

 

IMG_1808.JPG

Edited by Nogravitasatall
This Stuart
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Posted

45 minutes ago, Jonny said:

Disappointed they didn't repeat that line in that episode? I think when Ramona and Sheldon left for 4B they could have fitted that line in there as Penny was trying to rally the troops. Maybe the writers forgot that line, it was 8 years ago lol.

It's a shame they didn't use it. It's an iconic line to many of us....

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Posted

46 minutes ago, Jonny said:

Disappointed they didn't repeat that line in that episode? I think when Ramona and Sheldon left for 4B they could have fitted that line in there as Penny was trying to rally the troops. Maybe the writers forgot that line, it was 8 years ago lol.

The writers should know about this forum. We could always help them in case of memory failures, lol!

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Posted

48 minutes ago, hokie3457 said:

It's a shame they didn't use it. It's an iconic line to many of us....

I agree. Inconsistencies in continuity and logic again. Penny didn't even remember who she was at all. We last heard Ramona shouting "bite me" at Penny as she exited down the stairs. :icon_rolleyes:

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Posted

It was eight years ago. IT is plausible that Penny would of forgotten her. 

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Posted

14 minutes ago, 3ku11 said:

It was eight years ago. IT is plausible that Penny would of forgotten her. 

o_00496.gif.84b6fc4afe41de26c65c2196277a7446.gif

Excuse me, but this is cracker-barrel philosophy about any holy crap. :shy:

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Posted

29 minutes ago, veejay said:

I agree. Inconsistencies in continuity and logic again. Penny didn't even remember who she was at all. We last heard Ramona shouting "bite me" at Penny as she exited down the stairs. :icon_rolleyes:

Yeah Bernie said she googled her and Penny was like what is she like? lol

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Posted (edited)

22 minutes ago, veejay said:

Oh, I'm pretty sure Bernie had not appeared at this time (Ep6 - Season2). :shy:

I know, I was on about Penny's reaction to not knowing anything about Ramona.

Edited by Jonny
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