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[Spoilers] Season 10 Shipping Lanes

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It's jmo but all the other characters have changed over 9 seasons and sheldon seems to have major life changes in a few espiodes

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13 minutes ago, legacy99 said:

It's jmo but all the other characters have changed over 9 seasons and sheldon seems to have major life changes in a few espiodes

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It's jmo...but Sheldon has been changing since The Earworm Reverberation....the changes were accelerated by his living with Amy.  For a character like Sheldon, that great a shift in his every day dynamic has to have had a huge impact on him.

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It's jmo...but Sheldon has been changing since The Earworm Reverberation....the changes were accelerated by his living with Amy.  For a character like Sheldon, that great a shift in his every day dynamic has to have had a huge impact on him.

You could be right and you are entitled to your opinions but for me after watching sheldon for 9 seasons i have a hard believing he could change so much so quickly

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52 minutes ago, vonmar said:

So Howard/Bernadette should grow as people, get married, renovate a home together, prepare to have a child and Leonard/Penny should have a relationship, get married, navigate the changes in their lives, work at living alone together.....but....no...not Sheldon, he should stay stuck in the past, stunted, never showing any signs of growth with regard to relationships, love and a future as a vastly different person than he was.  That sounds fair.

It is a complex issue. There are all kinds of things in the mix that colour everyone's reponses.

In regard to fairness, consider "prior claim". Leonard and Penny were  there first. Sheldon and Amy came later. One response is to say "hey that's novel. I like it". Another is "hey, what I liked got colonised!".

It's  actually a losing argument, because demographics win and the show is there to make money, not art. Fairness doesn't enter in to it.

There was an original vision of Sheldon that was a unique creation - not seen on screen and rarely encountered in real life. He was odd but he had a principled rationale for his behaviour. He had an agenda. Now Sheldon is like everyone else, or less so. He isn't operating from a lofty intellectualised position, he is often just stamping his foot to get what he wants. In 10.03 he even fell asleep at the breast like a child. That is so far removed from the original creation it boggles me. They have re-drafted and exploited his character to provoke and generate content. Is that fair? Well, it's funny and it is show business, so...probably yes. If you are making the show.

I suspect that the issue of fairness more likely relates to the size of the cohort that gets genuine pleasure from the changes in the Sheldon character and his situation. That's where I think you can make an argument. Is it fair to restrict the pleasure of so many by restricting the scope and flexibility of Sheldon's character? More people derive joy from that than from what they wrote before, or at least than from the continuance of what they wrote before. Which is why Sheldon gets centre stage, not Leonard.

But, to be fair, what do you do for the original cohort, that bought into the show as it was and lifted it up to where it is. Some of them have transferred their affections to the new content, so they are ok. But some aren't. This is were we get into problems of the tyranny of the majority. What do you do that is fair for those left behind. Leave them there? What the show has done is make token efforts for those early adopters. As one, that strikes me as unfair.

In some senses it might like being an establishment Republican. Hehe.

But to your original point, Id suggest it is fair for Sheldon to experience the comforts of human companionship. What is not fair is that this has been at the  expense of the original supporters and the original vision. 

But life isn't fair, nor are markets. The market has decided that Sheldon has to get laid, get engaged, get hitched and have kids. Just like in every Disney story, pretty much. So good bye to the guy who bred luminous fish and hello manchild scared of caffeine.

Fair enough.

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I'm honestly confused here. What sudden changes of Sheldon are we talking about here??? Living with Amy? First of all it was an experiment. And it actually took some persuasion of Lenny and Amy to get Sheldon on board. Now he's just satisfied with the result and he's open to living with Amy. Isn't that always how things are between Shamy? Sheldon fighting against intimacy but once he tries it, he actually enjoys it. 

And if we're talking about Sheldon's behavior in episode 8, first we haven't watched the episode yet. But more importantly I think Sheldon seducing Amy has more to do with his OCD that once he starts something, he won't stop until he gets what he wants than the fact he's so horny that he has to have sex right there in the lab. Besides, the writers have been giving hints about Sheldon's desire over the years, every kiss, every sex reference.

If you ask me, I think what went wrong is the latter part of last season, not this season. The lack of follow up after Shamy's first time really raised some doubts about Sheldon's sexuality, which kind of ruined years of previous work on how Sheldon is slowly changing sexually. Luckily, with this season the writers are back on the right track. 

Shamy being an asexual couple was no longer an option the minute they wrote that scene where Amy was sexually aroused by Zack, and that was at the very beginning of Shamy's relationship. Amy with sexual desire and Sheldo being asexual is just too cruel IMO. I sincerely hope the writers wouldn't do that to one of their most beloved couples on the show, especially given that they've already kind of ruined the other most beloved couple on the show. 

But of course I'm biased. Just like every other human being. Not being a shipper does not make one unbiased IMO.

Edited by camelliayao
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39 minutes ago, Nogravitasatall said:

 

But, to be fair, what do you do for the original cohort, that bought into the show as it was and lifted it up to where it is. Some of them have transferred their affections to the new content, so they are ok. But some aren't. This is were we get into problems of the tyranny of the majority. What do you do that is fair for those left behind. Leave them there? What the show has done is make token efforts for those early adopters. As one, that strikes me as unfair.

In some senses it might like being an establishment Republican. Hehe.

But to your original point, Id suggest it is fair for Sheldon to experience the comforts of human companionship. What is not fair is that this has been at the  expense of the original supporters and the original vision. 

I don't know if I understand it right, but by "original cohort", are you referring to the audience who watched the show from the very beginning ?

I don't think there's a theory saying that because the show gets famous by the support of the "original cohort" so it should always stick to the tastes of those who initially watched it. Besides, the show actually got higher ratings in latter seasons. Let's say all the initial viewers of the first few seasons stopped watching by season 4. Then the show's later success has nothing to do with its original cohort. Because they were no longer watching.

At the end of day, this is a TV show. And that makes almost everything it does fair automatically. A person can simply change channels if he/she isn't satisfied with the route the show is taking. And if enough people do that, the show will eventually runs out of viewers and gets cancelled.

Doing something the market likes probably isn't fair to some of the creators of the show who care more about artistic visions than money, but again they're free to leave too. The fact that they didn't leave means they compromised. It's fair because everybody here is free to choose. 

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17 minutes ago, camelliayao said:

I don't know if I understand it right, but by "original cohort", are you referring to the audience who watched the show from the very beginning ?

I don't think there's a theory saying that because the show gets famous by the support of the "original cohort" so it should always stick to the tastes of those who initially watched it. Besides, the show actually got higher ratings in latter seasons. Let's say all the initial viewers of the first few seasons stopped watching by season 4. Then the show's later success has nothing to do with its original cohort. Because they were no longer watching.

At the end of day, this is a TV show. And that makes almost everything it does fair automatically. A person can simply change channels if he/she isn't satisfied with the route the show is taking. And if enough people do that, the show will eventually runs out of viewers and gets cancelled.

Doing something the market likes probably isn't fair to some of the creators of the show who care more about artistic visions than money, but again they're free to leave too. The fact that they didn't leave means they compromised. It's fair because everybody here is free to choose. 

Yes, the show can do what it likes. It doesn't have to be fair, just successful - or die. The viewer can choose to follow or not. Or get on to a fan site and vent. Or not. Or open that tub of ice cream, or not. Whatever. 

But Sheldon did take over the Petri dish. L/P was there first. Until the show spins to stop and the takeover ends, some people (like me) will be partisan about it. Only here, because IRL no one cares. Which is a sound response, because it's just a TV show.

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55 minutes ago, Nogravitasatall said:

But to your original point, Id suggest it is fair for Sheldon to experience the comforts of human companionship. What is not fair is that this has been at the  expense of the original supporters and the original vision. 

In the original vision Howard was a single, on the prowl sleazeball and Raj couldn't talk to women.  Those characters have changed, why can't Sheldon?

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21 minutes ago, vonmar said:

In the original vision Howard was a single, on the prowl sleazeball and Raj couldn't talk to women.  Those characters have changed, why can't Sheldon?

Maybe here I draw a line is that such old one and hoary that will lead to another argument that I will prememptively decline to pursue. It's  going to be his sexuality. That was a huge change that enabled the rest of the Shamy story - and then consequently  the L/P story got wound up  - and now they prop up the kitchen counter.  But sure, it's a story, let Sheldon change. It's fine and lovely. And no sign of brain injury to explain it, which is nice - just the power of love. Yay. If that works for one's preferences. But the magnitude of the change is huge. Not the same as Howard maturing  - but sure, a little like Raj losing his muteness.

Look, if the show had wrapped it would be fine but missed, but it was one thing and now it's another. To exaggerate, think about what happens if you take something from someone and then give it back broken. That could be how I feel about the show now. But they keep putting it out and I keep hoping to get something I like. Sometimes they get close. It's so frustrating. Lol.

 

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He's not saying Sheldon can't change.  Nograv has been clear on that point.  Sheldon has changed and there is nothing wrong with that.   Since the show is successful, the change has been validated in the minds of TPTB.  All those of us who don't like all the changes can do is to either quit watching, or watch, hoping to see the parts we like, at least occasionally, and vent about the rest. 

 

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1 hour ago, Nogravitasatall said:

Yes, the show can do what it likes. It doesn't have to be fair, just successful - or die. The viewer can choose to follow or not. Or get on to a fan site and vent. Or not. Or open that tub of ice cream, or not. Whatever. 

But Sheldon did take over the Petri dish. L/P was there first. Until the show spins to stop and the takeover ends, some people (like me) will be partisan about it. Only here, because IRL no one cares. Which is a sound response, because it's just a TV show.

No, Leonard and Sheldon were there first.  Penny was added during the second try.  And even if you wanna start from there, Sheldon was there in the beginning right with Leonard and Penny.  And honestly, in the beginning the show was mostly focus on Leonard and Sheldon, then Penny, then Howard and Raj.

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1 hour ago, vonmar said:

In the original vision Howard was a single, on the prowl sleazeball and Raj couldn't talk to women.  Those characters have changed, why can't Sheldon?

There are many differences. Sheldon is a main character. Howard and Raj are not. Raj not talking to women really limited. I believe they milked that as long as they could. Howard was on the prowl really just to get one girl. His actions changed after getting Bernadette. Sheldon went from no interest in women, to having a girl friend who wasn't a girlfriend, to conceiving a baby through a petri dish, to having coitus, to living with Amy and now throwing dinner parties. Also Raj really wanted to talk to women. Howard really wanted just one girl. Sheldon on the otherhand was very satisfied with his life before Amy. He never wanted a woman in his life.

3 minutes ago, nickelette424 said:

No, Leonard and Sheldon were there first.  Penny was added during the second try.  And even if you wanna start from there, Sheldon was there in the beginning right with Leonard and Penny.  And honestly, in the beginning the show was mostly focus on Leonard and Sheldon, then Penny, then Howard and Raj.

I think he may have been talking male female relationships.

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5 minutes ago, Chrismo said:

There are many differences. Sheldon is a main character. Howard and Raj are not. Raj not talking to women really limited. I believe they milked that as long as they could. Howard was on the prowl really just to get one girl. His actions changed after getting Bernadette. Sheldon went from no interest in women, to having a girl friend who wasn't a girlfriend, to conceiving a baby through a petri dish, to having coitus, to living with Amy and now throwing dinner parties. Also Raj really wanted to talk to women. Howard really wanted just one girl. Sheldon on the otherhand was very satisfied with his life before Amy. He never wanted a woman in his life.

I think he may have been talking male female relationships.

Maybe so, because that is the only way that comment works.

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2 minutes ago, nickelette424 said:

Maybe so, because that is the only way that comment works.

He mentioned the Petri dish. That referred to Shamy having a baby.

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Look we could go back and fourth here lol. People are entitled to an opinion, it is not an democracy. Wowbagger said it best, people are bias based on their preferences. I never said that Sheldon does not deserves the same lvl of fairness or love e.t.c. i never said that. My point was on the spectrum. Characters like Howard, Raj, Leonard always had a deal. They were straight. Sheldon never wanted any of it. Season 2 established Sheldon has no deal. So while I see one's argument, about "Oh Howard changed why not Sheldon?". Because his original creation was unique. Just like Aspergers, sexuality is on the spectrum. Howard because he was straight since the pilot, a woman was always possible. Particularly a serious relationship. Their was always the possiblity Sheldon was Assexual. The potential was their for Shamy to have a Assexual relationship. Which IMO they should of taken (I guess Amy coulden't hang on any longer lol, I get that), would of made Shamy even more unique. Seeing two people very much in love, have that kinda of relationship. Set's them apart from other couples on other tv shows. Good oppurtunity to show Assexuality in a very good light. Instead they choose them to sleep together. Now we've got a Horny Man, who does not know what to do with his emotions, because his development spurted. He is basically a Teenager.

But it does not really matter now does it. My point is, great a ton of Shamy fans are happy Sheldon is drunk on love man! Some don't like the direction the show has taken his character. Both sides are welcome. I mean it's not really just his emotional maturity or development with his relationship with Amy. It's all of it, Sheldon acts like theirs nothing wrong with him. His apology to Stuart was a great example, it felt normal. Dunno about that, he feels normalized. Like they shot him with a tranquilizer, that or he got hit on the head with a coconut haha. Does he have Amnesia too? The next episode, is he gonna declear Geology is just as legit as Physics? Is he going to go don't worry Leonard, I don't need a lift, I can drive to the comic book store on my own. While you were sleeping, I got my restricted LOL. Anyway back onto topic, i think this went wayward lol. Because they choose to give Sheldon most of the screen time. He get's more indepth plots. So that means Leonard and Penny screen time is limited. Some fans have an issue with that. So it is less an ensemble imo because of this. It is basically Sheldon Cooper's Adventures and his Friends, not The Big Bang Theory. I well state this I am glad Sheldon found Amy, I am glad he is not alone, while hsi friends are hapy and moved on. The way and the manner they went about it though, is what I disgaree with. 

Edited by 3ku11

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12 minutes ago, 3ku11 said:

Characters like Howard, Raj, Leonard always had a deal. They were straight. Sheldon never wanted any of it. Season 2 established Sheldon has no deal. So while I see one's argument, about "Oh Howard changed why not Sheldon?". Because his original creation was unique. Just like Aspergers, sexuality is on the spectrum. Howard because he was straight since the pilot, a woman was always possible. Their was always the possiblity Sheldon was Assexual.

Just to point out.  Asexuality has nothing to do with what sex one is attracted to, asexuality has to do with how much or little one desires sexual contact.  Whether someone is straight, gay, lesbian, bi-sexual etc is someone's sexual orientation.  So to compare Howard wanting women, with Sheldon not wanting sex is somewhat of a false equivalency.  

Sheldon, up to this point, is straight and is still asexual, as evidenced by not wanting to have sex since his and Amy's first encounter last year. That encounter wasn't so much due to his sexual desires, but more his wanting to give Amy a present.  

One of the things that bother's me about Sheldon is the way they have made his desire something of a variable.  Up to now he hasn't had much of a desire for sex.  That he suddenly now wants to have sex (according to Taping Reports) doesn't fit with him not wanting it since that first experience.  

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I was alluding to colonisation. One thing taking over another. The Petri dish was metaphorical. Looks, it's not possible to say Sheldon/Amy is wrong. It works - for many. All I'm doing is griping after the whistle has blown. It's a done deal and there may be consolation prizes- but there is no point expecting change - except that each week I hope stupidly that it rolls back to say s6. Or s3. And that's not going to happen. There is no way to argue the clock into reverse.

ciao folks

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57 minutes ago, serena_1995 said:

This is a viewpoint I have never gotten TBH. Don't get me wrong, I love Shamy in s10, but I don't buy that Sheldon was ever  'stunted' just because he wasn't in a relationship. Sheldon could speak with women and unlike Howard, Sheldon was never a sleazeball. Unlike Howard and Raj , he never expressed a desire to find someone. What growth are you talking about ? Throwing brunches ? Having sex ? Those are new experiences, but I wouldn't call them 'growth'. Sure, he is more open to admitting his faults now , but other than that, there was nothing fundamentally wrong with the way he lived his life in the past IMO.  

He was a brilliant, eccentric guy, who loved his job, indulged in his hobbies in his spare time and paid his rent.  He was puzzled by people but he was ultimately decent and innocent. He showed empathy -towards his mom, and his friends - he comforted Leonard after Leslie broke up with him , he lent money to Penny and took care of her when she broke her arm and he felt very guilty and apologized to Howard after he betrayed him to an FBI agent. Sheldon was always an emotional character with empathy. Despite seeming rigid, he came through for his friends many times.

 Sheldon just didn't want to date, hold hands , kiss or have intimacy - did that make him stunted ? Just because  he had a very different but very valid outlook to sex, romance and dating - he was somehow "half a man" ? I find that notion,  frankly, a bit offensive. It's a strange idea that without Amy, he couldn't have experienced "life and love". There are all kinds of people - asexual, aromantic or single people who lead rich fulfilled lives and experience emotional growth. Don't people who casually date have a life worth living ? Don't asexual people have a life worth living ? Don't single people ? Don't they learn and grow ? Sheldon could have been any of those- he could have grown though his family, his friends, his work or his failures in his career. But TBBT is just very insistent in having everyone 'paired up'.   

It is also a disservice to the Amy character, every time someone goes "OMG look Amy is the key to Sheldon's happiness" or "OMG look Amy has changed/taught Sheldon so much " . Because it makes Amy seem like a Mary Sue character with no flaws or oddity of her own, she solely exists to 'change' Sheldon. Is Sheldon also the key to Amy's happiness ? Is he also Amy's exception ? Those questions more or less remain unanswered and it all seems half baked and one sided sometimes. 

 I have no problem with Sheldon being sexual, and I actually love the path Amy and Sheldon took, but I would have been equally happy had they continued to be weirdo best friends who have a torrid intellectual affair; had the writers not chosen to enact the change in Amy or Sheldon to desire conventional romance. Because I don't think they were ever 'stunted'. They were  funny and they were best friends. Not everyone wants date nights, engagement, marriage, babies and the joys of renovating a house. But TBBT writers continue to overlook this.

I think whether to change Sheldon mostly has something to do what the audience/market would prefer.

IMO the show would never have lasted this long if Sheldon is just, born "weird". After a few years, people would get tired of Sheldon acting the same, talking the same, making the same mistakes and annoying Lenny in similar ways day after day. People would want to see him stepping outside his comfort zone and show us another side of himself. IMO people want Sheldon to be "weird" for a reason. It makes him more human and loveable. Thus the writers introduced Shamy.

Also, even before Amy, it was clear that the writers want some depth in the character's personality. In another word, they wanted him to be "broken", like Leonard said. For example, back in season 3, there was an episode where Sheldon hides in the comic book because Lenny's fighting reminds him of his parents.

And if you accept the show's setting, that Sheldon is a little broken, that his "weirdness" has something to do with his childhood. Then he actually did become a happier and better person because of Amy. And not only because of Amy, also Leonard, Penny, Howard, Bernie, Raj, even Stuart.

In 910, Sheldon literally admits himself that Amy is like the dryer sheet of his heart, that "he was living like half a man" before Amy.  Another evidence is the 200th episode, where it's so obvious that the show is admitting itself it has turned into the "Sheldon Cooper and his friends&girlfriend who help him over the years to become a better person" show.

You may disagree with the the route the show has taken, but people have plenty of reasons to believe Sheldon has become a better person because of Amy and his friends, as the show tells us so.

And from a more realistic POV, I think it actually makes more sense that there's an explanation for Sheldon's personality.

In the end I think it just comes down to the fact that you maybe not be with the majority here. Just like there're people who ship Shenny and they have plenty of reasons. They are just not with the majority. IMO the majority of the audience prefer the show as it is, maybe some slight changes would be better, but not major ones, or it would've lost viewers or got cancelled a long time ago as it has changed so much of Sheldon since season 4.

Edited by camelliayao
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1 hour ago, serena_1995 said:

This is a viewpoint I have never gotten TBH. Don't get me wrong, I love Shamy in s10, but I don't buy that Sheldon was ever  'stunted' or 'half a man' just because he wasn't in a relationship. Unlike Raj,  Sheldon had no problem speaking with women and unlike Howard, Sheldon was never a sleazeball. Unlike Howard and Raj , he never expressed a desire to find someone. What growth are you talking about ? Throwing brunches ? Having sex ? Those are new experiences IMO, but I wouldn't call them 'growth'. Sure, he is more open to admitting his faults now , but other than that, there was nothing fundamentally wrong with the way he lived his life in the past IMO.  

He was a brilliant, eccentric guy, who loved his job, indulged in his hobbies in his spare time and paid his rent.  He was puzzled by people but he was ultimately decent and innocent. He showed empathy -towards his mom, and his friends - he comforted Leonard after Leslie broke up with him , he lent money to Penny and took care of her when she broke her arm and he felt very guilty and apologized to Howard after he betrayed him to an FBI agent. Sheldon was always an emotional character with empathy. Despite seeming rigid, he came through for his friends many times.

 Sheldon just didn't want to date, hold hands , kiss or have intimacy - did that make him stunted ? Just because  he had a very different but very valid outlook to sex, romance and dating - he was somehow "half a man" ? I find that notion,  frankly, a bit offensive. It's a strange idea that without Amy, he couldn't have experienced "life and love". There are all kinds of people - asexual, aromantic or single people who lead rich fulfilled lives and experience emotional growth. Don't people who casually date have a life worth living ? Don't asexual people have a life worth living ? Don't single people ? Don't they learn and grow ? Sheldon could have been any of those- he could have grown though his family, his friends, his work or his failures in his career. But TBBT is just very insistent in having everyone 'paired up'.   

It is also a disservice to the Amy character, every time someone goes "OMG look Amy is the key to Sheldon's happiness" or "OMG look Amy has changed/taught Sheldon so much " . Because it makes Amy seem like a Mary Sue character with no flaws or oddity of her own, she solely exists to 'change' Sheldon. Is Sheldon also the key to Amy's happiness ? Is he also Amy's exception ? Those questions more or less remain unanswered and it all seems half baked and one sided sometimes. 

 I have no problem with Sheldon being sexual, and I actually love the path Amy and Sheldon took, but I would have been equally happy had they continued to be weirdo best friends who have a torrid intellectual affair; had the writers not chosen to enact the change in Amy or Sheldon to desire conventional romance. Because I don't think they were ever 'stunted'. They were  funny and they were best friends. Not everyone wants date nights, engagement, marriage, babies and the joys of renovating a house. But TBBT writers continue to overlook this.

I completely agree with all of this.  However, there does seem to be this idea that it is OOC, or even something wrong, for Sheldon to act as he has in the last 4 episodes or so.  I disagree with this.  There is nothing OOC or wrong about it.  Sheldon is just happy and enjoying this part of his life, and as he does with everything, he's gone all in. Once Sheldon gets there, he's setting up camp and getting comfortable.  It's happened with the idea of having a girlfriend, or handing hands, hugging and kissing.  Why should this be surprising to people? 

My main want for Sheldon and Amy is that they are happy in whatever path they choose.  If they decided that they would just be besties for the rest of their life and are happy with that, great.  If they decided to be life partners, yet without a sexual relationship, awesome.  If they decided to leave themselves open to a sexual relationship, allow it to develop and then decide they wanna go all in with it, fantastic.  

All the cute little scenes in the episodes we've seem or have info for are great.  But the best part of them is that they are happy, and that's all that matters to me.

@Tensor I agree that the second half didn't do much to foreshadow where Shamy are right now, but it didn't do much of anything, even negate what is happening right now.  It stayed unbelievably static.  Chatting with people like wowbagger and such, we've come to feel that what is happening now really should have been the follow up to Opening Night.  I think it kinda goes for the show as a whole.  You can pretty much, save a scene or maybe an episode, do without the second half narrative of season 9.  But I think before that, the signs of progression in their relationship were there (which made the breakup a bit jolting).  And I can see how living together can expedite a lot of this stuff as well.  So to me the story line itself isn't a tough sell, but the management of it (particularly the timing) is.

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1 hour ago, serena_1995 said:

This is a viewpoint I have never gotten TBH. Don't get me wrong, I love Shamy in s10, but I don't buy that Sheldon was ever  'stunted' or 'half a man' just because he wasn't in a relationship. Unlike Raj,  Sheldon had no problem speaking with women and unlike Howard, Sheldon was never a sleazeball. Unlike Howard and Raj , he never expressed a desire to find someone. What growth are you talking about ? Throwing brunches ? Having sex ? Those are new experiences IMO, but I wouldn't call them 'growth'. Sure, he is more open to admitting his faults now , but other than that, there was nothing fundamentally wrong with the way he lived his life in the past IMO.  

He was a brilliant, eccentric guy, who loved his job, indulged in his hobbies in his spare time and paid his rent.  He was puzzled by people but he was ultimately decent and innocent. He showed empathy -towards his mom, and his friends - he comforted Leonard after Leslie broke up with him , he lent money to Penny and took care of her when she broke her arm and he felt very guilty and apologized to Howard after he betrayed him to an FBI agent. Sheldon was always an emotional character with empathy. Despite seeming rigid, he came through for his friends many times.

 Sheldon just didn't want to date, hold hands , kiss or have intimacy - did that make him stunted ? Just because  he had a very different but very valid outlook to sex, romance and dating - he was somehow "half a man" ? I find that notion,  frankly, a bit offensive. It's a strange idea that without Amy, he couldn't have experienced "life and love". There are all kinds of people - asexual, aromantic or single people who lead rich fulfilled lives and experience emotional growth. Don't people who casually date have a life worth living ? Don't asexual people have a life worth living ? Don't single people ? Don't they learn and grow ? Sheldon could have been any of those- he could have grown though his family, his friends, his work or his failures in his career. But TBBT is just very insistent in having everyone 'paired up'.   

It is also a disservice to the Amy character, every time someone goes "OMG look Amy is the key to Sheldon's happiness" or "OMG look Amy has changed/taught Sheldon so much " . Because it makes Amy seem like a Mary Sue character with no flaws or oddity of her own, she solely exists to 'change' Sheldon. Is Sheldon also the key to Amy's happiness ? Is he also Amy's exception ? Those questions more or less remain unanswered and it all seems half baked and one sided sometimes. 

 I have no problem with Sheldon being sexual, and I actually love the path Amy and Sheldon took, but I would have been equally happy had they continued to be weirdo best friends who have a torrid intellectual affair; had the writers not chosen to enact the change in Amy or Sheldon to desire conventional romance. Because I don't think they were ever 'stunted'. They were  funny and they were best friends. Not everyone wants date nights, engagement, marriage, babies and the joys of renovating a house. But TBBT writers continue to overlook this.

Such a great post! My neck hurts from all of that approving nodding :)

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1 hour ago, camelliayao said:

I think whether to change Sheldon mostly has something to do what the audience/market would prefer.

IMO the show would never have lasted this long if Sheldon is just, born "weird". After a few years, people would get tired of Sheldon acting the same, talking the same, making the same mistakes and annoying Lenny in similar ways day after day. People would want to see him stepping outside his comfort zone and show us another side of himself. IMO people want Sheldon to be "weird" for a reason. It makes him more human and loveable. Thus the writers introduced Shamy.

Also, even before Amy, it was clear that the writers want some depth in the character's personality. In another word, they wanted him to be "broken", like Leonard said. For example, back in season 3, there was an episode where Sheldon hides in the comic book because Lenny's fighting reminds him of his parents.

And if you accept the show's setting, that Sheldon is a little broken, that his "weirdness" has something to do with his childhood. Then he actually did become a happier and better person because of Amy. And not only because of Amy, also Leonard, Penny, Howard, Bernie, Raj, even Stuart.

In 910, Sheldon literally admits himself that Amy is like the dryer sheet of his heart, that "he was living like half a man" before Amy.  Another evidence is the 200th episode, where it's so obvious that the show is admitting itself it has turned into the "Sheldon Cooper and his friends&girlfriend who help him over the years to become a better person" show.

You may disagree with the the route the show has taken, but people have plenty of reasons to believe Sheldon has become a better person because of Amy and his friends, as the show tells us so.

And from a more realistic POV, I think it actually makes more sense that there's an explanation for Sheldon's personality.

In the end I think it just comes down to the fact that you maybe not be with the majority here. Just like there're people who ship Shenny and they have plenty of reasons. They are just not with the majority. IMO the majority of the audience prefer the show as it is, maybe some slight changes would be better, but not major ones, or it would've lost viewers or got cancelled a long time ago as it has changed so much of Sheldon since season 4.

I think everyone, at the end of the day, is responsible for the changes they make in life.  The progression that Sheldon has made over the years is because, no matter long it might have taken him, he choose to take the steps to improve upon what he believed he needed to improve on.  Amy and the rest could be the best people in the world, but if Sheldon doesn't allow their influences, it means nothing.  Also, Amy is more than just Sheldon's savior.  It should not be hers or anyone else's on the shows burden to make Sheldon better.  I think there are some who think of Amy as more than just Sheldon's girlfriend and think she has a worth as a character all her own.

But what I think @serena_1995's main point is that it is rather insulting to characterize Sheldon has someone who was half a man, just because he didn't approach life and relationships the way others have.  Now, that doesn't mean he doesn't have deeper issues that may make him feel that way.  But sometimes it is presented on the show that the basics, the surface, of who Sheldon is needed for him to change so he can be a "real boy".  He was always a real boy, a real person with perfectly valid methods in the way he lived his life.  He shouldn't be better now because he has a girlfriend, is in love, and had sex.  He should be in a good place (and/or be better) because he found something that makes him happy that just so happens to be his girlfriend, who he is in love with and had sex with.

Edited by nickelette424
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There are many sitcoms that are rated as excelent. Most of them when I give a try to watch them, after one season, two seasons in maximum, I am done with them. Because the plots were going in circles and the jokes were recycled count less times. And I bet most of them had not had so interisting discussions among their fans in their  fansites as Big Bang Theory has.

What I am trying to say is whatever is for please a big audience that include several ages of fans around the world for several years or for making money with clever plotlines, Big Bang keeps viewers interested to keep going to follow the show, even when their points of view on characters or about the stories development colide with their own opinions about the life facts that show portraits through  its characters.

All Bbt characters, some more than others, have changed in their lives as some of use have been changed in our own lives more than others for the circunstances of each one lives.Imo it is what makes this sitcom special. It has its flaws that can irritate us but it is the realistic  tone that make us to discuss about the characters  passionately as they were real people.

I rather prefer to follow  a show that makes me think about the characters challenges as they live their  lives, that their tries to adapt to new situations make me laugh than to watch for 10 years the same scenario, same jokes and the characters might have not growth a bit since pilot episode.

 

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Again, I feel like a number of issues might be being bundled up here?

1) Are Lenny owed primacy as the focus of the show, at least romantically?

2) Was that focus 'stolen' by Sheldon? Specifically, because of his romantic/sexual life?

3) Was it conceptually wrong or abhorrent for the show to have explored Sheldon's sexuality?

4) Was it conceptually wrong or abhorrent for the show to have explored Amy's sexuality? And no, I know nobody's brought that up, but I'm going to, because while we're wringing our hands about how Sex Ruined Sheldon, how about we spare a thought for whether Sex Ruined the Person Whose Literal First Sentence had the Words 'Coitus is Off The Table'?

5) Or at the very least, did introducing sex into the Shamy make them less unique?

6) Even if not conceptually wrong, was the execution of Romance/Sex+Shamy less than ideal?

7) As a flipside: were romance or sex necessary to the development of Sheldon (or Amy) as a character?

My answers:

1) (blinks) no? Yes, long-time viewers deserve to see the Lenny relationship being executed well, but otherwise...

2) I don't know. Yes, Sheldon would have gotten attention - and he was a breakout character well before Amy, no? - but does that mean that attention would necessarily have gone to Leonard, Penny or Lenny? Not necessarily. Focus could have shifted to Howard and his maturing from sleazeball, or Raj and his ability to interact with woman like a human being (we're still waiting). Or the girls and their career struggles. We don't have a counterfactual.

3) No. Sheldon's intelligence and his bafflement with social norms didn't derive singularly from his low libido. The show seems to slip into the notion from time to time that his lack of interest in romance and sex is the Source of Sheldon's Powers. This is a tooth-grindingly simplistic and offensive attitude to take towards sex and cognition.

4) See (3).

5) Yes. That is empirically true. There are fewer couples who cheerfully don't have sex or want it, on screen, than couples who do.

6) Yes. Oh God, yes. Absolutely. Down to the push/pull of Seasons Six and Seven, the breakup and its aftermath, coitus and the regression that followed in the back half of Season Nine, and now this breakneck pace. The story management is all over the place.

7) No. Absolutely not. See @serena_1995's post above. 

Edited by wowbagger
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48 minutes ago, wowbagger said:

Again, I feel like a number of issues might be being bundled up here?

1) Are Lenny owed primacy as the focus of the show, at least romantically?

2) Was that focus 'stolen' by Sheldon? Specifically, because of his romantic/sexual life?

3) Was it conceptually wrong or abhorrent for the show to have explored Sheldon's sexuality?

4) Was it conceptually wrong or abhorrent for the show to have explored Amy's sexuality? And no, I know nobody's brought that up, but I'm going to, because while we're wringing our hands about how Sex Ruined Sheldon, how about we spare a thought for whether Sex Ruined the Person Whose Literal First Sentence had the Words 'Coitus is Off The Table'?

5) Or at the very least, did introducing sex into the Shamy make them less unique?

6) Even if not conceptually wrong, was the execution of Romance/Sex+Shamy less than ideal?

7) As a flipside: were romance or sex necessary to the development of Sheldon (or Amy) as a character?

My answers:

1) (blinks) no? Yes, long-time viewers deserve to see the Lenny relationship being executed well, but otherwise...

2) I don't know. Yes, Sheldon would have gotten attention - and he was a breakout character well before Amy, no? - but does that mean that attention would necessarily have gone to Leonard, Penny or Lenny? Not necessarily. Focus could have shifted to Howard and his maturing from sleazeball, or Raj and his ability to interact with woman like a human being (we're still waiting). Or the girls and their career struggles. We don't have a counterfactual.

3) No. Sheldon's intelligence and his bafflement with social norms didn't derive singularly from his low libido. The show seems to slip into the notion from time to time that his lack of interest in romance and sex is the Source of Sheldon's Powers. This is a tooth-grindingly simplistic and offensive attitude to take towards sex and cognition.

4) See (3).

5) Yes. That is empirically true. There are fewer couples who cheerfully don't have sex or want it, on screen, than couples who do.

6) Yes. Oh God, yes. Absolutely. Down to the push/pull of Seasons Six and Seven, the breakup and its aftermath, coitus and the regression that followed in the back half of Season Nine, and now this breakneck pace. The story management is all over the place.

7) No. Absolutely not. See @serena_1995's post above. 

Stop marking. Dammit. Lol. 

Edit: no, don't. But I just feel an order of magnitude stupider after you do. :) So carry on. I come here to learn.

(And to repeat, so far this season I have laughed at each show up to 10.03, so all this is just supplementary entertainment)

peace out

Edited by Nogravitasatall

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