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[Spoilers] Season 10 Shipping Lanes


Tensor
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51 minutes ago, nickelette424 said:

I think everyone, at the end of the day, is responsible for the changes they make in life.  The progression that Sheldon has made over the years is because, no matter long it might have taken him, he choose to take the steps to improve upon what he believed he needed to improve on.  Amy and the rest could be the best people in the world, but if Sheldon doesn't allow their influences, it means nothing.  Also, Amy is more than just Sheldon's savior.  It should not be hers or anyone else's on the shows burden to make Sheldon better.  I think there are some who think of Amy as more than just Sheldon's girlfriend and think she has a worth as a character all her own.

But what I think @serena_1995's main point is that it is rather insulting to characterize Sheldon has someone who was half a man, just because he didn't approach life and relationships the way others have.  Now, that doesn't mean he doesn't have deeper issues that may make him feel that way.  But sometimes it is presented on the show that the basics, the surface, of who Sheldon is needed for him to change so he can be a "real boy".  He was always a real boy, a real person with perfectly valid methods in the way he lived his life.  He shouldn't be better now because he has a girlfriend, is in love, and had sex.  He should be in a good place (and/or be better) because he found something that makes him happy that just so happens to be his girlfriend, who he is in love with and had sex with.

I'm on board with an asexual Amy and an asexual Sheldon. But I'm strongly against an asexual Sheldon and a heterosexual Amy. Because I don't think in that case Amy will be satisfied with her life. In reality she may choose to leave. But since in the show's world she can't leave, she'll always be stuck in a relationship where she should be unsatisfied but she's not and nobody knows why.

To sum up, 

1) I do think the show suggests Sheldon is becoming a better person because of Amy and his friends. 

2) Do I think people should feel offended because of 1)? No. Because the show never let other characters force Sheldon to change. The show never says Sheldon "needs" to change or that how he used to live is wrong or being asexual is wrong. It never said that. Sheldon did all those changes himself.

3) I remember CL used to say we should not label Sheldon. Just because Sheldon appears to be asexual doesn't mean he's asexual for life. People change. He met Amy, he changed. It's that simple.

Sheldon wanted to change for Amy. He realized he was living half a man before Amy. Does that mean the show is telling us how Sheldon used to live is wrong? No. It's just Sheldon believes that.

4) I prefer the show as it is now rather than an asexual Sheldon. The reason, like I said before, is that I think the show would haven been cancelled years ago if it kept Sheldon the same. The writers need a show first. Then they can express their artistic visions or how unique their characters are or whatever in their minds.

5) Judging by the ratings and how successful the show has been, the majority of the audience prefers the show as it is IMO.

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4 hours ago, serena_1995 said:

but I don't buy that Sheldon was ever  'stunted' or 'half a man' just because he wasn't in a relationship

I don't buy that either and I don't even think the show buys that. But that may just be my generous reading here.

I do think Sheldon was "stunted" in early seasons but it has nothing to do with his dating situation. He has been portrayed as an overgrown manchild/momma's boy who was living his life governed by a rigid routine and rules, and if something didn't go as planned he'd have a freakout somewhere on the scale of "making everybody around him miserable" to "having a mental breakdown". His friendships were rather of reluctant nature and he treated most people with varying degrees of contempt. He had little experience or desire to socialise with anyone and many of his social interactions were a nightmare because of that - that in and of itself wouldn't be so bad if it didn't result in him hurting others and even himself in the process. He had never really learned how to deal with his emotions in a healthy way and in result trouble expressing himself or work through difficult situations.

And that was all long before Amy showed up. What she brought to the table was that she was one of the very few people Sheldon was able to have a proper connection with, someone he actually wanted to engage with. If Shamy had never actually become a couple and just stayed friends, or if they decided they would keep their "relationship of the mind" as platonic as it was initially intended - as long as they would be on the same page and happy I still think we'd have a similar outcome in terms of Sheldon's character development. Amy softened up as she was drawn into Sheldon's social circle and he softened up thanks to her in result. Whether or not their relationship would involve physical intimacy I'm pretty sure we would have still seen a softer and more social Sheldon emerge over the years.

But with S4 they already threw in the idea that Shamy might have a sexual relationship one day and while the "will they won't they" struggle over the years may have been frustrating to varying degrees with the pacing and all that I do think it's been pretty clear that this is where the writers already put them on that track. It's just the way it is and I guess success proved them right.

Edited by April
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9 hours ago, nickelette424 said:

 

@Tensor I agree that the second half didn't do much to foreshadow where Shamy are right now, but it didn't do much of anything, even negate what is happening right now.  It stayed unbelievably static.  Chatting with people like wowbagger and such, we've come to feel that what is happening now really should have been the follow up to Opening Night.  I think it kinda goes for the show as a whole.  You can pretty much, save a scene or maybe an episode, do without the second half narrative of season 9.  But I think before that, the signs of progression in their relationship were there (which made the breakup a bit jolting).  And I can see how living together can expedite a lot of this stuff as well.  So to me the story line itself isn't a tough sell, but the management of it (particularly the timing) is.

Yeah, the management and timing is what is bothering me.  The pause in the second half of season 9, would have been a perfect place to do some incremental movement, so it .   It's all that movement in the last few episodes that makes me go hmmmmmmmm.  Not saying the changes are OOC, or indeed, I'm not saying the changes are bad, but the rapidity of that change seems to be OOC, at least for me.  

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I'm only going to go with your first two, as the rest don't directly

 

8 hours ago, wowbagger said:

Again, I feel like a number of issues might be being bundled up here?

1) Are Lenny owed primacy as the focus of the show, at least romantically?

My answers:

1) (blinks) no? Yes, long-time viewers deserve to see the Lenny relationship being executed well, but otherwise...

 

I don't think that Lenny is owed the primacy at all.  However, I would like to see more balance both in the time on screen, and in how the writers are telling the story. Season 8 we know about.  Season nine was a bit better.  This year?   It would have been nice to see some discussion, between Lenny, when Sheldon moved over to 4B and had his discussions with Amy.  We still haven't gotten that.  What we do have are reports that they may redecorate, but only after Leonard discovers Penny is hiding his figurines, without telling him.  Again, no discussion, but if they don't have the time to show the discussion, it wouldn't be shown. (I will wait until the episode to see if this needs to be fully condemned.  

 

8 hours ago, wowbagger said:

2) Was that focus 'stolen' by Sheldon? Specifically, because of his romantic/sexual life?3

My answers:

2) I don't know. Yes, Sheldon would have gotten attention - and he was a breakout character well before Amy, no? - but does that mean that attention would necessarily have gone to Leonard, Penny or Lenny? Not necessarily. Focus could have shifted to Howard and his maturing from sleazeball, or Raj and his ability to interact with woman like a human being (we're still waiting). Or the girls and their career struggles. We don't have a counterfactual.

While you don't have a counterfactual, would you say the additional time they give to Sheldon does take away from the possibility of giving more time to any of the other characters?  And to say Lenny wouldn't get anymore time, would seem to imply all the other characters would get the time, with Lenny getting none (like back in season 8 :icon_neutral: ). 

We know they can force Sheldon into genuine Lenny moments, to get him more time, but they can't seem to do the same in reverse (if there is more than last year's Valentine's Day episode, I'll be more than happy to be corrected.  And even there, I don't think it rises to interrupting two weddings and them saying goodbye for four months).  

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@Tensor, you know I am with you about the writing of Lenny, as well as the eye-rolling gratuitousness of Sheldon's insertion into their wedding vows renewal. I guess that I should have added an item to the list in my earlier post: do we think that the writing of Lenny has deteriorated? Because I think it has, and I think that Sheldon (and the 'three-way marriage') is a too convenient scapegoat. After all, Sheldon was off wining and dining Odds and Sods with Amy in the most recent episode, and the writers had Lenny off in their own plot. And I think we can all agree that the result was not altogether pretty... 

Basically, I think the writers need to coax themselves out of this rut they've fallen into when writing Lenny. But the rut is the issue, I think, not other characters.

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But the characters are part of the problem. The original point was, Sheldon getting all the screen time, and Lenny hardly. IS one of the big reasons Lenny get no stories. TBH this lack of balance between stories between the characters, and the baIance onscreen. Kinda all started, well for me anyway in 6x24, with Sheldon in the backseat. Like he was Lenny's kid, that started the forced unneccessary Sheldon scenes. So i agree it is all about balance. Hate to Reference Friends for the billionth time, but although Chandler and Rachel were the breakout stars of the show, they never took over the show. Sheldon has. So  Sheldon and Amy have had all the in depth plots. Found out more about Sheldon's backstory, even to absurd lengths (He knocks because he found his father cheating please, he has OCD). Yet all Lenny get is dancing in their underwear, fun. But not exactly in depth is it. Last season Lenny spoke about having kids, other then that. No real discussion about what they are going to do with their space at all. Yet 99% of the episodes 10x04-10x07. Have all been about Shamy and how they are navigating living together. What about Lenny? They just seem to put them in the background, or behind kitchen island, and hope for the best. The time invested in Shamy, is clearly alot more then Lenny or any other couple. So I Think the characters are at fault, as is the writing. Guess what i am saying is it is Quality v Quantity. 

The writers are clearly struggling to accomodate for more then two couples. They have Howardette having a baby, Shamy moving in together. Then they have to write Lenny as a married couple properly all in 25 mins. I mean the writers have clearly prooven they suck at writing Lenny as a married couple, or any married couple for that matter lol. It is no coincidence, things changed in the Lenny universe, the minute they got engaged. Don't make me bring up Season 8 trainwreck. So it is a bit of both, cannot say it is not the characters it clearly is and the writing. JMO. I mean it always seems, they make Sheldon depend on Lenny. But their is no give or take their. Sheldon takes from Lenny, but does not give back. And he definately knows better, ton of examples, where it is clear he knows what is happening, it is just indecision tbh.  Penny also barley confides in Leonard, and Sheldon barley confides in Amy. Cannon backs this up. That's also not a character issue just a writing issue. OF course they are subtle, with their pronouns. Like Penny saying to Leonard "I can't beleive it was 9 years ago that I met you". But you know. Ton of examples of Sheldon being in scenes he doesen't need to be, but they seem to force him in a scene.

So I do agree, they do seem to be in rut when it comes to Lenny. TBH they seem clueless. God I wish I could just watch this show and laugh, but their are way too many problems with this show atm to do so. Don't get me wrong I have generally enjoyed this season, but their still issues their. Now of course if they married Lenny off in Season 6 (Or heck not get engaged at all, and rush the whole thing), made them move in together. Instead of dragging out Lenny, and Shamy post Love Spell Potential and The Spoiler Alert Segmentation. Another three seasons. Well then they woulden't of tuned out a big part of the audience. And we woulden't be here discussing about screen time or lack of.. I mesn compare that to now. This whole lliving arrangments has been all on Sheldon's terms. Lenny have had no say in it at all. It has all been from Sheldon's point of view. 

Edited by 3ku11
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In these recent episodes they have had plenty of screen time and being on their own to do new things, when Shamy moved into 4B they had them dancing in their underwear and when Shamy had their brunch they had them give an ego boost to Leonard at the comic con ugh!

I agree with @wowbagger it's the writing of Lenny that is the issue here not Sheldon or other characters impacting their lives and restricting them from doing things on their own.

The season is still young though and we have seen in the past that they do focus on particular characters for a while then shift focus. We could still get some good or interesting Lenny storylines.

Edited by Jonny
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39 minutes ago, Tensor said:

And look at how imbalanced the writing was during the screen time.  Shamy got two scenes trying to figure out what their moving in together meant, how they were going to do it, and a scene showing the problems in sharing a bed.  Lenny got two 30 or so second scenes of them dancing and one pointing out how physically incapable Leonard is at dancing. 

Go back to the season 8 discussion thread.  How Lennys complained about the lack of stories for Lenny and were told the season wasn't half over and there was plenty of time to get some good Lenny plots.  Non of which materialized.   When they finally got a major plot, it was shattered by the revelation of Leonard kissing another woman.  There is a reason some Lennys renamed that season, season hate. 

n_00026.gif

The awakening of the trauma! :vampire:

Edited by veejay
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Maybe they should of never married Lenny in the first place. Because

  • They clearly suck at writing married couples
  • And they clearly are struggling to accomodate all these characters, and three couples

It has become too complex. They clearly had no idea how they were going to write Lenny post Engagement. Clearly Shamy was going to take up alot of room over the next (Post Season 6) 4 years of the show. So either they got engaged too soon. Or should of waited to marry them off. Till they had some idea of what they were going to do with them. Getting them engaged. Then not even mentioning the fact they are engaged, for most of Season Hate. Then when they did. Oh that doozy, that lovely storyline of Leonard cheating on the love of his life, and lieing about it for two years. That was lovely. After that awesome season for Lenny fans. To top the cherry on top of the cake, they throw that one out their Clearly their is writer who does not like Lenny. Wonderful. Theirs this Top Ten Video thing on Youtube with Decisions Writers should get fired for. Lenny Season 8 finalie top the lot haha. So it was my opinion, either get married in Series Final. Or marry them off in S6.

I remember in the Season 6 finalie. Bernadette even suggested it. Penny was not like no thanks, not in so many words lol. Looking back, seeing it was just three years ago. Why not Penny? Who are you saving yourself for? You have clearly outgrown dumb gym types. Leonard is clearly the type of guy your interested in romantically now. What was stopping them? On the same achord, after Love Spell Potential. What was stopping Shamy from doing the deed? Was dragging it al out for three more seasons, really neccessary? Because all they did, was tune out a big proportion of the audience.

Then it happened again in Season 9, the 2003 Approximation. Lenny or Penny decided to stay with Sheldon, because they felt sorry for him. Yeah Sheldon really appreicated that diddn't he lol. They then dragged it out another season. And now after 4 years, they are finnally living apart. Four years too late imo. So I do agree, its fine saying Lenny have got the entire season for more stories. Well after Season 8 and 9, been told that. Sorry if some Lennys find that hard to beleive. this season 6 episodes in a row. Has been 95% Shamy. And Lenny standing behind kitchen island. So clearly the writers either just don't care about Lenny anymore, or are just too lazy. 

 

Edited by 3ku11
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On October 30, 2016 at 8:26 PM, vonmar said:

So Howard/Bernadette should grow as people, get married, renovate a home together, prepare to have a child and Leonard/Penny should have a relationship, get married, navigate the changes in their lives, work at living alone together.....but....no...not Sheldon, he should stay stuck in the past, stunted, never showing any signs of growth with regard to relationships, love and a future as a vastly different person than he was.  That sounds fair.

No, that is not at all what 3ku11 was saying. What he was saying is that while he expected Sheldon 2 go though all the experiences he went through, he would have preferred for him to do so without loosing as much of himself as he did.  IMO all of the characters (except maybe for Raj- he's mainly the same douche he's always been-) have grown and changed but not lost as much of their essence as Sheldon has . In all fairness I believe writers have grown complacent and lazy and the characters are all in general more poorly written than in earlier seasons. 

Edited by Tensor
Removed comment directed at another member.
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I think this is the appropriate place to post this. With all the regards to Lenny's lack of screen time. They did get basically 3 full episodes of screen time from 9x23-10x01. I guess gone are the days when they got isolated scenes. That is prob what most Lenny's or anyone who is a fan of the show wants. Some alone time. Last episode they got no isolated scenes. Just their reactions to other characters. Then off screen for some fun ha. One of my favorite moments from the show is Penny in the Season 2 Finalie. The Monopolar Expeidition. I guess it is hard to expect that kinda quality these days. As it seems the writers are either Lazy, or are stuck in a rut when it comes to Lenny. The original goal was for Leonard to marry Penny. And it seems they have no idea how to write them as a married couple, without putting them in the background too much. Which has clearly happened. And I Think they have used this season to advance Shamy at a fast pace. Because their well be an engagement at the end. And tbh not ever series finalie, needs a close ended episode. Some have open ended ones, and tbh I actually prefer the open ended ones. Where their are questions. As they could just suggest, Lenny left for this place. Shamy become a gray area, in terms of if they re getting married. And generally everyone is where they should be since the pilot. Considering how they are treating two of their mainstays. I Think it would be an improovement if they ended up writing Lenny off. And if their is a Season 11, their well be a downsized cast. Probably see Burt and Stuart become more regulars. More and more it is pointing to Season Ten being the last season, or Season 11 looking alot different. Kinda similar to when Foreman and Eric left in That 70's show. 

Edited by 3ku11
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19 minutes ago, Chrismo said:

Actually in season 1 in the episode when they are playing video games Sheldon made the comment about Penny being attractive and good at video games.

"No one can be this attractive, and good at video games". Hmm yeah an observation. But I don't think Sheldon ever outright was physically atrracted to looks. It was always intelligence. Often he gets you know going lol, if Amy for an example says something he finds sexy. Like a loophole in something, or a scientific explanation, or some rant about the universe, and non procreation methods e.t.c. A lot of people's critisism over Sheldon. Has not been the fact he has a girlfriend, or he found love. That they changed his character too much to get their. Some don't like that, simply as they have been watching since the Pilot. Some may only tuned in half way through, so your investment won't be as strong. I also don't like how they use Amy as a prop for Sheldon most of the time. Wish they would be more creative with Sheldon. And also give Amy some plots. And give Leonard tenure. 

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Thought more appropriate to bring here. With the talks of Shamy being very imbalanced. And where Sheldon fits on the spectrum. When it comes to his sexuality and desires. One moment it is on the other end, in The Brain Bowl Incubation. They write him like he is Joey Tribianni, horny lol. Trying to seduce Amy. Next moment, he does not act like he desires Amy at all, or any form of physical contact. Then he is like it's your birthday girl, you know what that means! Dance with no pants time! I mean when are they going to actively have Sheldon show he desires Amy. Not just for the sake of some obligatory thing he promised Amy. IS he ever going to develop to the point, sex is just one part of their relationship. Not something they create a mileston around? Point is the Shamy relationship is severley imbalanced. The Opening Night Excitation was very successful, made it into The Guiness World Records. So now the show is basically when well Shamy have sex again, that is the show now. It is caled milking a good thing. 

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On 10/30/2016 at 4:49 AM, Chrismo said:

The first season he didn't knock on Penny's door like that. Him seeing his dad with another woman happened years before. The door routine and his other behaviors are meant to be funny. OCD? I guess will have to agree to disagree.

One explanation could be that what Sheldon perceived as Penny's persistent  promiscuous behaviour eventually provoked his return to a thrice knocking habit he'd grown out of but was still at the back of his mind. We used to call this 'restimulation'. It's one of his OCD routines that he's rationalised. He could probably give a 'reason' behind all his phobias and foibles if he had to. Perhaps he'll gradually shed the ones that don't benefit him now that he lives with Amy.

Edited by joyceraye
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I guess I did prefer this show when it was not so relationship driven and focused. Let me state while I accept the show was always about relaitionships. Lenny were always endgame, since Hi. But I am refering more to the dynamics. I kinda miss the Friendship Dynamics of the earlier years, particularly the first three seasons. Guess it is a personal preference. The moment Leonard and Penny became involved 3x01, clearly that changed. 

I too wonder about Sheldon's knocking habits. Did it regenerate, re surface e.t.c. I don't know. I guess I could accept Sheldon's perception of what he deemed promiscious beahviour by Penny, brought back his habit in knocking the door. But i always thought it was just a symptom of his OCD. Too find out it started because he walked in on his Dad having an affair, does not really compute with me. As it feels too selective when it comes to his door knocking. Like above said, maybe Penny's promiscious behaviour brought back the return. But like I Said, I beleive it is just a symptom of his OCD. So if it originatedby discovering his Dad cheated. It does not really justify his other OCD behaviour. So it seems selective from the writers. To explain his door knocking because of a represssed memory. Not just one symptom of his OCD beahviour. Does not really add up. 

Edited by 3ku11
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2 hours ago, 3ku11 said:

I guess I did prefer this show when it was not so relationship driven and focused. Let me state while I accept the show was always about relaitionships. Lenny were always endgame, since Hi. But I am refering more to the dynamics. I kinda miss the Friendship Dynamics of the earlier years, particularly the first three seasons. Guess it is a personal preference. The moment Leonard and Penny became involved 3x01, clearly that changed. 

I too wonder about Sheldon's knocking habits. Did it regenerate, re surface e.t.c. I don't know. I guess I could accept Sheldon's perception of what he deemed promiscious beahviour by Penny, brought back his habit in knocking the door. But i always thought it was just a symptom of his OCD. Too find out it started because he walked in on his Dad having an affair, does not really compute with me. As it feels too selective when it comes to his door knocking. Like above said, maybe Penny's promiscious behaviour brought back the return. But like I Said, I beleive it is just a symptom of his OCD. So if it originatedby discovering his Dad cheated. It does not really justify his other OCD behaviour. So it seems selective from the writers. To explain his door knocking because of a represssed memory. Not just one symptom of his OCD beahviour. Does not really add up. 

No, it’s not, it’s not, it’s not. :shy:

Edited by veejay
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  • 3 weeks later...

Look what this TR has done to me! To me, the always-positive-glass-half-full-guy. I changed my avatar, changed my member title, removed my profile cover photo, removed my signature. Saying that I am at a complete and total loss right now regarding the TR is an understatement.

A relationship agreement for Lenny? Are you f***king kidding me?

My girlfriend, a bigger Lenny shipper than I could ever be, is on the verge of tears right now, after she read the TR. For that alone I hate you writers...so much!

I don't know how. But writers...Fix this!

Edited by luminous
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On ‎12‎/‎14‎/‎2016 at 8:37 AM, luminous said:

Look what this TR has done to me! To me, the always-positive-glass-half-full-guy. I changed my avatar, changed my member title, removed my profile cover photo, removed my signature. Saying that I am at a complete and total loss right now regarding the TR is an understatement.

A relationship agreement for Lenny? Are you f***king kidding me?

My girlfriend, a bigger Lenny shipper than I could ever be, is on the verge of tears right now, after she read the TR. For that alone I hate you writers...so much!

I don't know how. But writers...Fix this!

I feel exactly the same as you do. I know it says somewhere to turn the other cheek , but if we keep on doing so, the slaps are so hard that we're going to get whiplash.

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