Tripper

[Spoilers] Non-Season 10 Show Discussion

381 posts in this topic

Posted

Even though legally, the law would look at it as a rape if the woman was too drunk to give consent.  But if she herself doesn't feel it was rape, how could they prosecute?  

I've had drunk sex before that I consented to but according to the law, I was incapable to do so.  After I sobered up, I didn't consider it as the guy taking advantage of me or raping me.

The way I see it, how does Penny feel?  Does she feel Raj took advantage of her?  Does she feel Raj (or Leonard in 3:24) raped her?  However Penny feels about the situation is how I think we should all feel about it.  

Penny: Look, honey, I was really drunk and made a huge mistake last night. We should’ve never slept together. It’s what ruins friendships.

 

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Posted

2 hours ago, Kathy2611 said:

Even though legally, the law would look at it as a rape if the woman was too drunk to give consent.  But if she herself doesn't feel it was rape, how could they prosecute? 

That was my whole point about the difference between breaking the law and a crime. 

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Posted

IMO a peculiar aspect of this incident is that as far as we know Penny has never told Leonard the full details of her night with Raj, in so far as she knows them. I would have thought that was something any couple would want to be clear about.

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Posted

29 minutes ago, JohnPhD said:

IMO a peculiar aspect of this incident is that as far as we know Penny has never told Leonard the full details of her night with Raj, in so far as she knows them. I would have thought that was something any couple would want to be clear about.

Well, to be fair, she doesn't remember, Penny herself may not know all the details.  I think its fair to assume he knows they didn't actually have intercourse. 

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Posted

On 3/8/2017 at 7:39 AM, Tensor said:

And before anyone brings up Leonard and drunk Penny, yes, he also needed to get consent she might not have been able to legally give. 

In the case of The Maternal Capacitance, Penny and Leonard were both pretty drunk, so it's questionable if either were really able to give informed consent.

On 3/8/2017 at 11:54 AM, Kathy2611 said:

Does she feel Raj (or Leonard in 3:24) raped her?

Or Leonard tried to rape her in 2:15?

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Posted (edited)

On 3/12/2017 at 5:29 AM, Stephen Hawking said:

In the case of The Maternal Capacitance, Penny and Leonard were both pretty drunk, so it's questionable if either were really able to give informed consent.

Or Leonard tried to rape her in 2:15?

They were both drinking pretty heavily in 2.15. That was consensual. Do you really beleive intended to rape Penny? Your referring to Lime Kiss right? You could just as argue Penny tried to rape Leonard lol. The whole idea is absurd. Rape means no consent from the other party. In both cases I don't think Penny considers 2.15, 3.23, 4.24 as rape at all. She has a past behaviour of making sexually impaired decisions while under the influence.

Edited by 3ku11

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Posted

Daily Beast:  BBT at 200:  One of the greatest comedies series ever?

http://www.thedailybeast.com/articles/2016/02/25/the-big-bang-theory-s-200th-episode-is-it-one-of-the-greatest-comedies-ever.html?via=desktop&source=Reddit

...

Penny follows him in there. “I hate that your sister and her friends used to torture you. What I hate even more is that if I was there I would’ve tortured you, too,” she says. “My point is there was a time I would never have been friends with someone like you. Now you are one of my favorite people. So if what you need is to spend your birthday in the bathroom, then I’ll do it with you.”

It’s not just Sheldon who’s becoming more of a fully realized human. They all are.

Koothrappali can now talk to women without being drunk. Wolowitz morphed from misogynist to husband and, soon, father. Sheldon has the capacity now to be truly touched, and Penny has learned not to judge.

MORE AT LINK

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Posted

What a false dawn the 200th was. Penny front and centre as she should be. I was really hopeful for future episodes: and what have we had since.

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Posted

20 hours ago, Chrismo said:

Many are commenting on Raj living with Lenny and relating it to 4.24 but let's back to that time and going over some of the facts.

Leonard in Irish Pub was trying to hide his relationship with Priya- this would suggest Leonard was doing something wrong. He came clean because in reality he had to come clean.

From that point on he was with Priya all the way to season 4 finale- this means obviously they slept together countless time.

in the finale Raj suggested they switched bedrooms because he couldn't handle listening to the two have sex. Leonard agreed. Raj was moving in with Sheldon in 4a. Raj inquired if he could bring girls back to the bedroom and Leonard's response was its fine as long as it isn't against their will. At no time was Penny mentioned and at no time from 4.24 till now was it suggested he forced her into the bedroom. JMO but it appeared at the time he had a mocking look like there was no way Raj would get a girl back into the bedroom.

it seems to me if you were okay with Leonard and Priya relationship you should be okay with Raj/Penny hook up. Two more factors. Leonard and Priya went into their relationship knowing full well that there would be objections. Penny and Raj had been drinking. Penny as everyone knows doesn't remember how she ended up in bed. Raj remembers what happened and has taken most of the blame on what happened. The thing is Raj couldn't talk to women back then. The hook up could only have happened if Raj had been drinking. JMO if Raj had ended up in bed sober with Penny it would easy to blame him for what happened. But he wasn't.

How this relates to now. It appears with the characters on the show its been forgotten. The only time mentioned was he told Emily. I do understand fans and Penny at the time being mad at this. It seems to me the only way it's going to be brought up again is if Emily comes back because the version she heard appears different than the real version.

Agree with most of what you are saying, but the dialogue before they wound up in bed was Penny confessing how she messed up in breaking up with Leonard and how she missed him. In season 5 premiere she admits to Amy that she hurt Leonard until she found out her and Raj did not "sleep together" and promised not to tell about his "quick draw" moment. But, IMO Leonard really does not know this full story and it might be a point of contention towards the season finale.

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Posted

7 minutes ago, Mario D. said:

Agree with most of what you are saying, but the dialogue before they wound up in bed was Penny confessing how she messed up in breaking up with Leonard and how she missed him. In season 5 premiere she admits to Amy that she hurt Leonard until she found out her and Raj did not "sleep together" and promised not to tell about his "quick draw" moment. But, IMO Leonard really does not know this full story and it might be a point of contention towards the season finale.

Actually Leonard does know. In the hook up reverberation after Emily and Penny discuss the "hook up" Penny storms into 4a and confronts Raj that everyone knows they didn't sleep together. Leonard was there when that discussion happened

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Posted

23 hours ago, Chrismo said:

Many are commenting on Raj living with Lenny and relating it to 4.24 but let's back to that time and going over some of the facts.

Leonard in Irish Pub was trying to hide his relationship with Priya- this would suggest Leonard was doing something wrong. He came clean because in reality he had to come clean.

But what was he trying to hide?  Having a relationship with Priya, or breaking his pact with Howard, because of the relationship with Priya? 

Quote

From that point on he was with Priya all the way to season 4 finale- this means obviously they slept together countless time.

No, he wasn't.  Irish Pub was episode 6.  He didn't get back with Priya again until episode 16.  In between, he kissed Penny several times and was begged not to give up on her by her father(Boyfriend complexity, almost had sex with Penny (Raj Interrupted), in Love Car, and Penny almost almost admitted to him she still had feelings for him (Justice League).  Not to mention his dalliance with Mrs Latham.  

Quote

it seems to me if you were okay with Leonard and Priya relationship you should be okay with Raj/Penny hook up. 

As they were two single people, I have no problem with that aspect of the hook up.  I do have a problem with it as Penny was drunk, and thus unable to give consent.  Not to mention Raj's not letting Penny (and Leonard) know that Priya was leaving.  

 

Quote

Leonard and Priya went into their relationship knowing full well that there would be objections. 

And, so?  

Quote

The thing is Raj couldn't talk to women back then. The hook up could only have happened if Raj had been drinking. 

Not true.  He could talk to Summer Glau, without drinking alcohol (he was drinking non-alcoholic beer).  He also could talk to women upon taking a drink, before the drink could even have reached his intestines to be absorbed(The Pirate Solution), or even just rum cake, again before it gets to his intestines (The Apology Insufficiency).  All Raj needs is the idea that his ingested alcohol.   In this case though, we saw him drink wine, the question is always, how much.  

Quote

JMO if Raj had ended up in bed sober with Penny it would easy to blame him for what happened. But he wasn't.

As has been pointed out several times, Penny was unable to give consent, so it is easy to blame Raj.  

 

 

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Posted

1 hour ago, Tensor said:

almost had sex with Penny (Raj Interrupted), in Love Car

I got the impression they did have sex, despite Raj's interruption:-

Leonard: Oh, I don’t know. Maybe when you walk into a hotel room and you see a guy getting back together with his girlfriend, you should consider doing something other than crawling into the adjoining bed.

Raj: I did. You said no Bridget Jones.

Penny (voice): We weren’t getting back together! It was a one-time thing!

 

The "It was a one-time thing" remark suggests it happened.

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Posted

As much as I, as a Lenny, would love to have had that happen, the visuals suggest otherwise. 

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Posted

1 hour ago, Tensor said:

The visuals suggest otherwise. 

What visuals?

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Posted

Them starting kissing, and Raj walking in while they were still just kissing, and also still had their clothes on. 

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Posted

1 hour ago, Tensor said:

I do have a problem with it as Penny was drunk, and thus unable to give consent.

You don't know enough about the incident to make these assumptions. Flat out assuming it was rape is way over the top.

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Posted

 

24 minutes ago, Cloud Strife said:

You don't know enough about the incident to make these assumptions. Flat out assuming it was rape is way over the top.

Penny blacked out, that is not an assumption.    Blackouts start happening at just over 0.20 BAC, almost three times the legal limit, that is also not an assumption.   Penny was drunk, and legally unable to give consent.  That is not an assumption either, it's based on the known fact that she blacked out.  

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Posted

15 minutes ago, Tensor said:

 

Penny blacked out, that is not an assumption.    Blackouts start happening at just over 0.20 BAC, almost three times the legal limit, that is also not an assumption.   Penny was drunk, and legally unable to give consent.  That is not an assumption either, it's based on the known fact that she blacked out.  

But Penny being raped is an assumption. I'm not sure said that you said that but many others have.

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Posted

1 hour ago, Tensor said:

Penny blacked out, that is not an assumption.

We know she didn't remember.

Not remembering is not the same as blacking out.

Many moons ago, a few of us guys were on a night out, drinking quite heavily.

The following day, one of my mates couldn't remember what had happened that night, but I can assure you that, at no point during our night out, did he black out. Indeed, he was able to flag down his own taxi, to take him home.

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Posted

3 minutes ago, Stephen Hawking said:

We know she didn't remember.

Not remembering is not the same as blacking out.

Many moons ago, a few of us guys were on a night out, drinking quite heavily.

The following day, one of my mates couldn't remember what had happened that night, but I can assure you that, at no point during our night out, did he black out. Indeed, he was able to flag down his own taxi, to take him home.

Just because he was able to flag a taxi doesn't mean he didn't black out. The Whole thing IMO really doesn't matter since nothing happened between Penny and Raj.

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Posted

11 minutes ago, Stephen Hawking said:

We know she didn't remember.

Not remembering is not the same as blacking out.

Many moons ago, a few of us guys were on a night out, drinking quite heavily.

The following day, one of my mates couldn't remember what had happened that night, but I can assure you that, at no point during our night out, did he black out. Indeed, he was able to flag down his own taxi, to take him home.

Actually, not remember IS blacking out.  There is a difference between blacking out and passing out.  Passing out is becoming unconscious, and that can start happening at 0.30.  Again, blackouts start happening at just over 0.20.  Your mate blacked out, he did not pass out.    Based on this, his BAC was somewhere between 0.20 and 0.30.  

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Posted

9 minutes ago, Stephen Hawking said:

We know she didn't remember.

Not remembering is not the same as blacking out.

Many moons ago, a few of us guys were on a night out, drinking quite heavily.

The following day, one of my mates couldn't remember what had happened that night, but I can assure you that, at no point during our night out, did he black out. Indeed, he was able to flag down his own taxi, to take him home.

Blacking out and not remembering are the same thing and different from passing out. With a blackout the recogition of not remembering can typically occur the same night. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Blackout_(drug-related_amnesia)#Types_of_blackouts

 

Just now, Tensor said:

Actually, not remember IS blacking out.  There is a difference between blacking out and passing out.  Passing out is becoming unconscious, and that can start happening at 0.30.  Again, blackouts start happening at just over 0.20.  Your mate blacked out, he did not pass out.    Based on this, his BAC was somewhere between 0.20 and 0.30.  

You beat me to it.

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Posted (edited)

21 minutes ago, Chrismo said:

But Penny being raped is an assumption. I'm not sure said that you said that but many others have.

Well, he said "without consent" and sex without consent is rape. I think saying it was rape is a bit of a stretch because 1) she didn't sue him, which means she doesn't think it was anything like that, 2) she's still friends with him and 3) a comedy would never go there.

And just because you're drunk and fell asleep during a failed attempt to have sex doesn't mean you didn't know what you were doing, even if the alcohol prevents you from remembering anything the next morning. If he would've drugged her and dragged her to the bedroom, that would be rape. But the whole thing comes across as mutual to me. Especially because of that conversation they had before the bedroom scene where sex with Raj wasn't exactly off the table.

Edit: But then again, I don't see how all this is relevant since all the involved characters already moved on.

Edited by Cloud Strife
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Posted

17 minutes ago, Chrismo said:

But Penny being raped is an assumption. I'm not sure said that you said that but many others have.

But not my assumption.  I will cop to an inference, based on her not giving being able to legally give consent.  However, as it wasn't reported, it can't legally be prosecuted.  

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Posted

3 minutes ago, Cloud Strife said:

And just because you're drunk and fell asleep during a failed attempt to have sex doesn't mean you didn't know what you were doing, even if the alcohol prevents you from remembering anything the next morning.

By California law, even if you know what you are doing, even if it is mutual,  if either or both of the participants are over the legal limit, either or both, can be charged with rape, if it is reported.   That's why I specifically said that she was unable to give consent, she was legally impaired. 

11 minutes ago, djsurrey said:

You beat me to it.

:icon_razz:

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