[Spoilers] Non-Season 10 Show Discussion

[3ku11]

34 minutes ago, Chrismo said:

In Lunar Excitation Leonard took advantage of an obvious drunk Penny. Some have mentioned in the past he thought they were getting back together. Two factors IMO disproves this. One Leonard slept with Dr. Plimpton two episodes earlier. Second drunk Penny made no mention of getting back together.

in regards to the Raj/Penny hook up it was shown on screen they had both been drinking wine. Were they both drunk? Just Penny? Or Penny  more drunk than Raj? JMO but the latter is most likely. The question for me is did Raj realize he was taking advantage of a drunk Penny? When Raj told Penny what happened that night I tend to believe him. Why? I don't think he, or any guy,  would admit he couldn't keep it up. The rest of the story Raj told was Penny was trying to help him put on the condom? Does that mean consent?  From that yes. My guess at that time there was no way Raj would know or may have been capable of knowing if Penny would remember. Did Raj looking back take advantage of a situation? Probably. Did Leonard in the episode earlier say is was okay to bring a girl back to his bed? Yes. Was Leonard having sex with Priya caused Raj to move to Leonard's room? Yes.

Raj IMO did't handle the situation well. Some suggest he must of known Priya was going back to India. But if you were Priya would you let Raj know that? His actions in the first episode of season 5 weren't good. Him knowing Priya then was leaving and still pursuing Penny IMO was wrong. But all of this wasn't as bad as his fantasizing about Bernadette and wishing she would play his "clarinet".

Disagree suggested rape is far worser. Giving consent when your so drunk you remember nothing, is impaired judgement. Did they drink a lot? clearly. Considering in Normal circumstances. Penny has never been in that position at any point six seasons later. But comparatively Raj clearly was more lupid. And should of been more responsible. But he wasent. Imo he took his chance to get into Penny's pants.

Knowing in normal circumstances she would never date him. She even said so. And withholding information about Priyas departure as early as 5.01 too. Also made him look really bad. Proceeding to lie about what really happened for years. Also makes him look bad. Penny attempting to put the condom on Raj. Doesent even suggest consent. Considering how drunk she was, she blacked out. And had no recollection next morning. 

So regardless if Leonard was dating his sister. Leonard's contrasting reputation. To be honest to make a comparison. Leonard would have to hook up with Bernadette. I always shipped these too thought I won't lie . In a hypothetical scenario, where they are both single.

All these other factors. Are irrelevant and beside the point. It was an isolated instance. It is just my opinion the show crossed MAJOR boundaries with this storyline. It felt more like Two and a half men then Big Bang. It was the most shocking thing the show ever did. The most controversial thing the show ever did. We're still talking about it nearly 7 years later lol. It's a polarising subject I accept that.

To be quite honest both Penny and Raj were in the wrong. And they were both responsible. Raj more so though. But he wasent. And has not since taken any responsibility.

Edited February 27, 2017 by 3ku11

[Tensor]

 

9 minutes ago, Chrismo said:

In Lunar Excitation Leonard took advantage of an obvious drunk Penny. Some have mentioned in the past he thought they were getting back together. Two factors IMO disproves this. One Leonard slept with Dr. Plimpton two episodes earlier. Second drunk Penny made no mention of getting back together.

Which has nothing to do with the Raj/Penny interaction.  If you wish to discuss this, we can discuss it, but these are two separate incidents.   

9 minutes ago, Chrismo said:

The question for me is did Raj realize he was taking advantage of a drunk Penny? 

It really doesn't matter if he realized it or not.   Just like it doesn't matter if he doesn't realize he's too drunk to drive, and then drives. 

9 minutes ago, Chrismo said:

 When Raj told Penny what happened that night I tend to believe him. Why? I don't think he, or any guy,  would admit he couldn't keep it up. 

 He prematurely ejaculated.  Not keeping it up wasn't the problem.

9 minutes ago, Chrismo said:

 The rest of the story Raj told was Penny was trying to help him put on the condom? Does that mean consent?  From that yes. My guess at that time there was no way Raj would know or may have been capable of knowing if Penny would remember.

That doesn't mean consent, if she is too drunk to give consent.  Whether Raj would know she would remember or not isn't pertinent.  

9 minutes ago, Chrismo said:

Did Raj looking back take advantage of a situation? Probably. Did Leonard in the episode earlier say is was okay to bring a girl back to his bed? Yes. Was Leonard having sex with Priya caused Raj to move to Leonard's room? Yes.   Raj IMO did't handle the situation well. Some suggest he must of known Priya was going back to India. But if you were Priya would you let Raj know that?

BTW, when Leonard specifically chastised Raj for not telling him Priya was leaving.  Raj didn't say he didn't know she was leaving.  Along with his parents knowing suggests that he did know.    And here is where Raj not telling Leonard is part of it.  Remember, Leonard and Raj swapped living spaces, "...until Priya finds her own apartment".  If Raj would have told Leonard she was leaving, there would have been no reason for Leonard to move to Raj's place, as Priya was not getting her own place.

9 minutes ago, Chrismo said:

His actions in the first episode of season 5 weren't good. Him knowing Priya then was leaving and still pursuing Penny IMO was wrong. But all of this wasn't as bad as his fantasizing about Bernadette and wishing she would play his "clarinet".

This, 4.24 and several other episodes indicate Raj would do what he could to get with different women.  Keeping the information, of Priya's leaving, from Penny and Leonard, fits his character development.  

[Chrismo]

There nothing that was seen or suggested any rape occurred. What was seen  in 4.24 was Raj and Penny drinking then showing Penny waking up in bed with Raj. In 5.01 Penny didn't remember what happened and Raj did. That doesn't make Penny innocent or Raj guilty of anything. Without seeing what actually happen everything after that is conjecture. To me you could make more of a case of Leonard raping  Penny in 3.23 since Penny was drunk and Leonard was totally sober. That was actually seen in the episode.

[Tensor]

 

5 minutes ago, Chrismo said:

There nothing that was seen or suggested any rape occurred. What was seen  in 4.24 was Raj and Penny drinking then showing Penny waking up in bed with Raj. In 5.01 Penny didn't remember what happened and Raj did. That doesn't make Penny innocent or Raj guilty of anything. Without seeing what actually happen everything after that is conjecture. 

Where exactly did I say a rape occurred?  

Penny forgetting the previous night, is not conjecture.  Raj remembering the previous night, is not conjecture.  For Penny to black out about the previous night, saying she would have had to been legally drunk is not much of a conjecture.  Which condition suggest either Raj or Penny was legally drunk, and could not give consent.

[Chrismo]

13 minutes ago, Tensor said:

 

Where exactly did I say a rape occurred?  

Penny forgetting the previous night, is not conjecture.  Raj remembering the previous night, is not conjecture.  For Penny to black out about the previous night, saying she would have had to been legally drunk is not much of a conjecture.  Which condition suggest either Raj or Penny was legally drunk, and could not give consent.

My original response was more to 3ku11 than you about the rape. I should of specified that. You are correct  about the Raj remembering and Penny blacking out

[3ku11]

Leonard and Penny had a former consenting relationship. What about middle earth Paradigm? Why is that not a valid example. Leonard could of taken advantage, but he diddnt. But then Again, those are seperate instances and have nothing to do with the Penny/Raj instance. I don't get using other examples which are similar to justify this storyline. The audience most likely diddnt respond with outrage to Leonard and Drunk Penny. Because it's not like they hadent seen the relationship throughout the series run. Penny/Raj was a blindside period. Tbh Penny probably trusted Leonard despite being drunk. Their was no trust between Raj and Penny.

Edited February 27, 2017 by 3ku11

[No Regrets]

I hated both Raj and Leonard for sleeping (and trying to sleep) with a very drunk Penny. Two times where I wanted to hurl something at the TV.

And also - and this has always bugged me - I feel the show tried to justify both cases by constantly letting the audience know that Penny is sexually very loose. That would never have worked with Bernadette or Amy. But Penny has a lot of sex with different men so it's OK, right? Right?! 

Ugh. 

It reminds me of this scene on Friends where Rachel (sober) tries to sleep with Ross (also sober):

Ross: I'm sorry, I just, I just don't think this is a good idea.
Rachel: Wait, we won't know that until we do it, will we?
Ross: No, look, uh. You are upset about your father and you're feeling vulnerable and I-I just don't feel it would be right, I'd feel like I'd be, you know, taking advantage of you.
Rachel: Taking advantage!? I am giving you the advantage! Enjoy!
Ross: Look, I'm sure it would be great, but I-I think one of us has to be thinking clearly, so, I'm gonna go.
Rachel: (clearly pissed) Wow. Ok.
Ross: I'll see you in the morning (he leaves).

Not that Ross never did some questionable and crappy things but in this case, I loved how they wrote him.

Edited February 27, 2017 by No Regrets

[mirs1]

3 hours ago, No Regrets said:

I hated both Raj and Leonard for sleeping (and trying to sleep) with a very drunk Penny. Two times where I wanted to hurl something at the TV.

And also - and this has always bugged me - I feel the show tried to justify both cases by constantly letting the audience know that Penny is sexually very loose. That would never have worked with Bernadette or Amy. But Penny has a lot of sex with different men so it's OK, right? Right?! 

Ugh. 

What I find even more problematic is how the writers handled the aftermath of both incidents. It looked like the writers wanted to put the blame on Penny for having hurt Leonard's and Raj's feelings with her actions and, even worse, she believed that herself. This is utterly wrong.

[No Regrets]

17 minutes ago, mirs1 said:

What I find even more problematic is how the writers handled the aftermath of both incidents. It looked like the writers wanted to put the blame on Penny for having hurt Leonard's and Raj's feelings with her actions and, even worse, she believed that herself. This is utterly wrong.

Agreed. Penny clearly wasn't able to think straight in both cases. Leonard should've turned her down and talked to her in the morning about whether or not she really wanted to get back together, and Raj should've backed off the second Penny made it clear she wanted Leonard back. 

Would I get as drunk as Penny to the point where I can't remember what I did the night before? No. But that still doesn't excuse the guys' behavior. 

[Chrismo]

3 hours ago, mirs1 said:

What I find even more problematic is how the writers handled the aftermath of both incidents. It looked like the writers wanted to put the blame on Penny for having hurt Leonard's and Raj's feelings with her actions and, even worse, she believed that herself. This is utterly wrong.

I think thats right and in both situations there is a certain truth that Penny was to blame. For Penny to end up in bed with Raj should have hurt Leonard's feelings because she broke up with Leonard. With Raj giving ending up in bed sort of led him on. She even suggested on screen that she would hook up with if he didn't mention the pornography. ( she mentioned mc squared something I don't remember the line). Again I'm not sure will ever know what exactly happened that night.

 

3 hours ago, No Regrets said:

Agreed. Penny clearly wasn't able to think straight in both cases. Leonard should've turned her down and talked to her in the morning about whether or not she really wanted to get back together, and Raj should've backed off the second Penny made it clear she wanted Leonard back. 

Would I get as drunk as Penny to the point where I can't remember what I did the night before? No. But that still doesn't excuse the guys' behavior. 

Ideally your correct. I think The difference between Leonard and Raj though was Leonard was sober and Raj was not. How drunk Raj was who knows. Sober enough to remember what happened that night. Sober enough to control himself around Penny. Who knows.

[No Regrets]

1 hour ago, Chrismo said:

Ideally your correct. I think The difference between Leonard and Raj though was Leonard was sober and Raj was not. How drunk Raj was who knows. Sober enough to remember what happened that night. Sober enough to control himself around Penny. Who knows.

I'd gladly give Raj the benefit of the doubt if he hadn't shown interest in his friends' partners and/or exes plenty of times throughout the show.

[BigBang15]

5 hours ago, No Regrets said:

Agreed. Penny clearly wasn't able to think straight in both cases. Leonard should've turned her down and talked to her in the morning about whether or not she really wanted to get back together, and Raj should've backed off the second Penny made it clear she wanted Leonard back. 

Would I get as drunk as Penny to the point where I can't remember what I did the night before? No. But that still doesn't excuse the guys' behavior. 

Why should he? As far as they knew, Leonard was in a relationship with Priya (against Raj's protests). At that point, Penny getting back with Leonard was not on the table, and if it were a possiblity, as far as Raj knows, it would hurt his sister. (Some people assumed Raj knew Priya was moving back to India, but it is not said, shown or implied on the show). Alcohol affects people differently. Penny may not remember things the next morning with her hang-over, To Raj this was "special" so even in a drunken stupor, he could remember. Like I said, I went back and watched the scenes yesterday and Penny didn't seem any drunker than Raj and vice-versa. We don't know who said "let's go to bed". Maybe Raj went to bed and Penny followed him? We don't know. Since we don't know, we can't make a judgement on Raj or Penny on this incident.

Edited February 27, 2017 by BigBang15

[No Regrets]

20 minutes ago, BigBang15 said:

Why should he? As far as they knew, Leonard was in a relationship with Priya (against Raj's protests). At that point, Penny getting back with Leonard was not on the table, and if it were a possiblity, as far as Raj knows, it would hurt his sister. (Some people assumed Raj knew Priya was moving back to India, but it is not said, shown or implied on the show). Alcohol affects people differently. Penny may not remember things the next morning with her hang-over, To Raj this was "special" so even in a drunken stupor, he could remember. Like I said, I went back and watched the scenes yesterday and Penny didn't seem any drunker than Raj and vice-versa. We don't know who said "let's go to bed". Maybe Raj went to bed and Penny followed him? We don't know. Since we don't know, we can't make a judgement on Raj or Penny on this incident.

Everyone has different moral standards. I would never hook up with my best friend's ex (especially not when they still have feelings for my best friend) and I hate it when it happens on TV. Others might say they would never hook up with their friend's sibling (re: Leonard) and that's OK, too. So in MY BOOK, yes, Raj was wrong for doing what he did with Penny. If others feel there was no problem then they have a right to feel that way of course.

Edited February 27, 2017 by No Regrets

[Tensor]

3 hours ago, BigBang15 said:

Why should he? As far as they knew, Leonard was in a relationship with Priya (against Raj's protests). At that point, Penny getting back with Leonard was not on the table, and if it were a possiblity, as far as Raj knows, it would hurt his sister. (Some people assumed Raj knew Priya was moving back to India, but it is not said, shown or implied on the show). Alcohol affects people differently. Penny may not remember things the next morning with her hang-over, To Raj this was "special" so even in a drunken stupor, he could remember. Like I said, I went back and watched the scenes yesterday and Penny didn't seem any drunker than Raj and vice-versa. We don't know who said "let's go to bed". Maybe Raj went to bed and Penny followed him? We don't know. Since we don't know, we can't make a judgement on Raj or Penny on this incident.

Actually, in the next episode, Leonard asks Raj why he didn't tell him, and Raj doesn't protest that he didn't know. A his parents knew, and she would be moving out of Raj's apartment. I feel it's reasonable to believe Raj knew.

As far as Penny's condition, black out drunk is still drunk.  Not remembering what happened would indicate she was black out drunk prior to getting to bed.  At that point,  she would be unable to give consent. 

If you want to say you can't make a judgement, because you believe there isn't enough evidence, or see the evidence as inconclusive,  that's fine. But, I and others feel there is enough evidence.  So, please don't say 'we' when it comes to making a judgement. 

[JohnPhD]

I think the case is a bit simpler than we've all made it.

(1) In 424 Raj committed a crime against Penny. He took her to bed when she was too drunk to consent, and when her words and actions prior to becoming drunk didn't imply consent. We're not talking about a legal case but that's (attempted) rape in English law and I'm assuming it's the same in California.

(2) Penny was the sole victim and in no way to blame. She was entitled to believe it was safe to drink a lot in 4a.

(3) Raj was entirely to blame.

(4) Leonard at that time was not a party or co-victim. Penny's being his ex doesn't give him any standing.

As of mid-season 10 Leonard doesn't know what really happened and Penny presumably still has the dopey belief she was somewhat to blame. If she tells Leonard what actually happened then he's involved, because Penny is now his wife. It wouldn't make any difference if he hadn't known Penny at the time of the crime. A crime was committed against the woman who is now his wife.

The first thing L would have to do is convince Penny that she was the innocent victim of a crime by Raj. The second thing probably is to overcome her naive soft-heartedness and convince her Raj must be punished. The third is to decide together what they want to do to Raj.

[wowbagger]

I'm rather uncomfortable with throwing around words like 'rape'. Regarding 4X24, neither the writing or acting gives one to understand that Raj deliberately withheld information from Penny. Similarly, to my mind neither the writing nor the acting gives one to understand that there was a power imbalance between them because of the alcohol - specifically that the imbalance was in favour of Raj over Penny. Probably neither of them should have had sex while they were pissed. Probably neither was making good decisions. But we don't have enough onscreen evidence to suggest that alcohol led to a power imbalance because of which one person is a victim and another is a perpetrator. 

I think there's far greater canonical evidence to suggest that Leonard took advantage of a drunk Penny when they had sex in an earlier episode. If you think what happened in 4X24 was rape, then what do you think of a sober man having sex with a drunk woman? 

I agree with all who hate that the show put Penny in this position. Twice, for fuck's sake. There are so many layers of misogyny there that it sickens me to contemplate them. First, Penny has to be drunk to have on-screen sex with someone with whom she is not in a relationship. So she isn't allowed to exercise her libido on-screen without the mediation of alcohol or a long-term relationship. But if you object to people she trusts failing in a duty of care to her and/or themselves, it's somehow okay, because we've told you how she's a big old slag, right?

Go fuck yourself, show.

And BTW, I'm no fan of Raj and I am sick and tired of the 'Poooooooooor Raj' shit that gets chucked around to excuse his entitlement and shallowness. 

Edited February 27, 2017 by wowbagger
tidied up shitty syntax.

[April]

7 minutes ago, wowbagger said:

Leonard took advantage of a drunk Penny when they first had sex.

????

They first had sex in 3x01 - I don't remember either of them being drunk. Leonard taking advantage of a drunk Penny when she wanted to have sex with him was 3x23.

[wowbagger]

2 minutes ago, April said:

????

They first had sex in 3x01 - I don't remember either of them being drunk. Leonard taking advantage of a drunk Penny when she wanted to have sex with him was 3x23.

argh I meant 'first' as in it happened before Rajgate. Fixed now.

[Capt. Hilts]

14 hours ago, mirs1 said:

What I find even more problematic is how the writers handled the aftermath of both incidents. It looked like the writers wanted to put the blame on Penny for having hurt Leonard's and Raj's feelings with her actions and, even worse, she believed that herself. This is utterly wrong.

It's a man's man's world, to quote a guy who beat up women....

2 hours ago, wowbagger said:

I think there's far greater canonical evidence to suggest that Leonard took advantage of a drunk Penny when they had sex in an earlier episode. If you think what happened in 4X24 was rape, then what do you think of a sober man having sex with a drunk woman? 

I agree with all who hate that the show put Penny in this position. Twice, for fuck's sake. There are so many layers of misogyny there that it sickens me to contemplate them. First, Penny has to be drunk to have on-screen sex with someone with whom she is not in a relationship. So she isn't allowed to exercise her libido on-screen without the mediation of alcohol or a long-term relationship. But if you object to people she trusts failing in a duty of care to her and/or themselves, it's somehow okay, because we've told you how she's a big old slag, right?

Go fuck yourself, show.

And BTW, I'm no fan of Raj and I am sick and tired of the 'Poooooooooor Raj' shit that gets chucked around to excuse his entitlement and shallowness. 

Agreed.

[serenaded214]

Which means anyone else doesn't need an example either.  But providing one does help bolster one's assertions.   That Penny doesn't remember the previous night, and Raj does, is support for saying Penny was too drunk to give consent.  And, instigation doesn't mean consent.  And saying yes isn't consent, if you are impaired enough.  If you want to say that we don't know if anyone drank more, then Penny would have had to been drunk enough, at the time of the last scene with Penny and Raj, to  black out .  

I hate this type of argument with a hot burning passion. Just because raj remembers what happened does not mean he took advantage of her. They were both drinking and both of them could have been impaired enough to not know what they are doing. Just because he remember the events does not at all allude to how impaired he was. I say they were BOTH unable to give consent. No one took advantage of the other.

Sent from my HTC One_M8 using Tapatalk

[Carlos]

On ‎2‎/‎26‎/‎2017 at 6:38 PM, BigBang15 said:

Hey, Leonard doesn't have a(n) (openly admitted) problem with it, why should anyone else. He knows Penny's reputation. What happened between Penny & Raj is none of his business, especially since he was banging Raj's sister (against Raj's protests).

If Leonard was banging Raj's sister it most certainly is NOT Raj's business. I don't know what you mean by Leonard knowing Penny's reputation. Are you implying that Penny's a slut? As I said, I really don't know what you mean by that. Besides that, Leonard doesn't know exactly how things happened. I'm pretty sure that the sex between Priya and him was 100 % consensual. Furthermore they did it (well, almost did it) in his bed, so...

[Jonny]

24 minutes ago, Carlos said:

If Leonard was banging Raj's sister it most certainly is NOT Raj's business. I don't know what you mean by Leonard knowing Penny's reputation. Are you implying that Penny's a slut? As I said, I really don't know what you mean by that. Besides that, Leonard doesn't know exactly how things happened. I'm pretty sure that the sex between Priya and him was 100 % consensual. Furthermore they did it (well, almost did it) in his bed, so...

It's a bit of a stereotype but a close friend hooking up with someone's sister can be really really frowned upon. I have two sisters myself and if one of my friends got in a relationship with one of them I am not sure I would be all that happy about it either, though that depends on the friend and how their relationship actually progressed etc. Put it this way I could totally see where Raj was coming from on this, but ultimately that's his problem to try and deal with and get over.

Slut is not a term I would use, was she portrayed as highly promiscuous with loose sexual morals? The writers definitely went there for a while with jokes from not only her friends but also Penny herself. Hell we had an old gag about it this season with getting back at someone by sleeping with their boyfriend as her go to move. Good thing for the most part because she is now married they have pretty much dropped those gags now. Which is the correct thing to do imo.

I assume this whole discussion over these past couple of pages is because Raj has moved in and there is some fear he and Penny might almost get a bit too close again, or perhaps even one step further (especially as Lenny seem to be arguing a lot at the moment)? I can't see the writers going there, it would create such a furore.

Edited February 28, 2017 by Jonny

[Tensor]

 

1 hour ago, serenaded214 said:

I hate this type of argument with a hot burning passion.

But, it appears that you turn around an use it yourself

1 hour ago, serenaded214 said:

Just because raj remembers what happened does not mean he took advantage of her. 

And, because he remembers what happened, and she didn't, it could mean he did.  We don't have enough information to state definitively what exactly happened.  All we have are the various incidents, and clues.  How we judge each of those, will determine how we feel about the incident.  With the amount of information available, there are going to be differing opinions.  Doesn't mean there is anything wrong with the way different people get to their conclusion.    

1 hour ago, serenaded214 said:

They were both drinking and both of them could have been impaired enough to not know what they are doing.

Of course it COULD indicate that, but it doesn't mean it DOES indicate that.  It's going to depend on how you see it. 

1 hour ago, serenaded214 said:

 Just because he remember the events does not at all allude to how impaired he was. I say they were BOTH unable to give consent. No one took advantage of the other.

That's a possibility also. If you wish to think this, I have no problem with it.  I just happen to believe that being black out drunk, indicates a level of intoxication higher than one who can remember what happened.   Blackouts start happening when a BAC is above a 0.20 BAC.  That's about 2.5 times the legal limit.  

Like I said, it COULD have happened the way you described it.   I take the blackout Penny experienced as an indication that she was over the legal limit, and unable to legally give consent.  You may see it differently.   But, California law puts the onus on men.  If both are drunk, the woman can't give consent,  and it's up to the man to realize what is happening.  This doesn't mean it's fair (I don't think it is), but that is the law.   

 

[3ku11]

Both Leonard and Raj taking advantage of a drunk Penny in 3.23 and 4.24. Were low moments for the show. We can all agree about that. Of course Penny is an adult, and she needed to take responsibility. But thing is she has. Raj never did. They keep spouting "Feel sorry for me" routine to justify his shallowness and self entitlement. It is down to ones interpretation and how you feel about the incident.

Me. I see Leonard and Priya as both fully consenting adults. Who were in a 100% consensual relationship. No way can I say the same about Penny and Raj. I just can't see Penny giving full legal consent. When like said was over the legal limit for alcohol intake. To the point she blacked out. And contrastly Raj had full recollection. Under the Law Raj was in the wrong. I also diddnt like how they delt with the aftermath of it tbh. To me it was the worst thing they ever did. Nothing they do we'll ever top it in shock value. 

Edited February 28, 2017 by 3ku11

[BigBang15]

There's no under the law stuff here. No law was broken. As far as we know penny instigated and at minimum assisted

Sent from my D5803 using Tapatalk