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6 hours ago, Nogravitasatall said:

 

 

 

Regarding the Shamy story ... pup sold have we been perchance. Let the capable and effective woman get on with her life - or give her some decent wins. Imagine another three years of quiveringly anticipative Amy. Golly.

Golly indeed. And let me speedily clarify what I would count as a win: For Sheldon and Amy to both get what THEY want, rather than for Amy to have to (still, again) be tricking/wheedling/coaxing her boyfriend to countenance cohabitation/sexual activity/a proposal which he seemed all set to make a year ago. How on earth is it a win for Sheldon to be kicking and screaming all the way to the bedroom/altar? Unless the goal is for Amy to discover her Mad Skillz as a puppetmaster? Which, considering how infantile Sheldon has become, barely count as skills frankly?

Or! Or! This is radical, show, but hear me out. Maybe, just maybe, Amy's wins could have to do with her career! A science plot! Yes, I know she's a ladyperson, but-show? Show?

ah, dammit, here comes the 'Out of Cucumber Error' sign again.

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4 hours ago, wowbagger said:

Golly indeed. And let me speedily clarify what I would count as a win: For Sheldon and Amy to both get what THEY want, rather than for Amy to have to (still, again) be tricking/wheedling/coaxing her boyfriend to countenance cohabitation/sexual activity/a proposal which he seemed all set to make a year ago. How on earth is it a win for Sheldon to be kicking and screaming all the way to the bedroom/altar? Unless the goal is for Amy to discover her Mad Skillz as a puppetmaster? Which, considering how infantile Sheldon has become, barely count as skills frankly?

Or! Or! This is radical, show, but hear me out. Maybe, just maybe, Amy's wins could have to do with her career! A science plot! Yes, I know she's a ladyperson, but-show? Show?

ah, dammit, here comes the 'Out of Cucumber Error' sign again.

I'm worried about Peter and Olivia, now that she can see objects from the other universe. (Wrong show and maybe last decade... sorry)

Not sure what to offer except maybe if they don't get an extension then they can write a plausible progression. Otherwise it's the premise juggernaut, crushing and feeding hopes simultaneously.

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20 hours ago, wowbagger said:

Well, if it's not just for Lio, here is my response: Discussion of a show should not be confined exclusively to uncritical adoration, or even to qualified adoration. You don't give up being a fan because you dislike (even violently dislike) certain aspects of a show. In addition, if you USED to enjoy a show (as I did, and defended it against charges of lazy writing and overuse of stereotype and cliche) you ought still to be allowed to voice criticism of a direction that you don't enjoy. The problem is when you start telling people how to consume a work of fiction. Voicing your opinion is not the same thing as forcing other people to share it.

You know what IS flirting with forcing other people to share your opinion? Saying 'if you don't like it, why don't you just leave?' That statement, whether one means it or not, suggests that the target has failed a certain basic qualification to have and hold an opinion.

nothing wrong with disagreement, even robust disagreement. Bit tricky when you start deciding who gets to speak.

I never told anybody they should leave. I questioned why if one doesn't like something, why they would waste their time and energy complaining about it. I saw this happen years ago on a Trek board about Enterprise. There was a faction that would invade every post about the show up to wanting to start a petition to have the show canceled. Why? If I don't like a show, who am I to want to have it cancelled so the people who do can't see it. I should just move on to something else. Like Wheaton conveyed on a BBT episode, why let the show (in this case) live rent free in my head?  If you loved the show in Seasons 1-3, and you haven't liked it since then, why would you (et al) think it's going to all of a sudden change back? The characters have (had to) develop or the show would get stagnate. For those, feel free to leave here or stay, but you needn't inject negativity into every conversation to ruin it for the people who do enjoy it.

JMO

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27 minutes ago, BigBang15 said:

I never told anybody they should leave. I questioned why if one doesn't like something, why they would waste their time and energy complaining about it. I saw this happen years ago on a Trek board about Enterprise. There was a faction that would invade every post about the show up to wanting to start a petition to have the show canceled. Why? If I don't like a show, who am I to want to have it cancelled so the people who do can't see it. I should just move on to something else. Like Wheaton conveyed on a BBT episode, why let the show (in this case) live rent free in my head?  If you loved the show in Seasons 1-3, and you haven't liked it since then, why would you (et al) think it's going to all of a sudden change back? The characters have (had to) develop or the show would get stagnate. For those, feel free to leave here or stay, but you needn't inject negativity into every conversation to ruin it for the people who do enjoy it.

JMO

I don't think the two are exactly equivalent. The case that you are citing describes someone who objects to the very EXISTENCE of the show. A very different proposition from someone who has no problem with the show's existence, is invested in the stories and characters, and happens to not like the direction a show is taking.

I, personally, am not one of the people who think the show peaked in season 3. Neither am I opposed to growth and change. I have speculated with considerable intensity(!) about my preferred directions of change.

but the people who liked the dynamic of the show in seasons 1-3 and are unhappy about all changes since then? Are also fans of the show, and also have a right to vent. To whom else WILL they vent but other fans of the show? Not all of whom will agree with their distress? You don't have to engage if you don't want to, but you ARE better placed to understand this person's plaints than someone who doesn't watch the show and doesn't understand what (s)he is bitching about.

And I am sorry if the tenor of my venting is so distressing to people who enjoy the direction of the show presently. But, to the best of my knowledge, I personally have never implied that those who don't share my opinions are wrong and should feel ashamed or guilty for not agreeing with me. However strongly I express said opinions. And I don't resent that other people enjoy the show, even if I don't. I would certainly never dream of asking them to temper their expressions of glee because it is letting inconvenient rainbows in the way of my thundercloud time. I understand and approve of the concept of trigger warnings and safe spaces, but I am a little alarmed at the implication that I cannot take responsibility for my own feelings about a work of fiction, and that other people have a responsibility to limit the expression of their opinion to spare my fee-fees.

Not that you are saying any of this yourself. I am just a little worried at the idea of formally or informally laying down the law on who gets to have an opinion, and who gets to express it.

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49 minutes ago, BigBang15 said:

 If I don't like a show, who am I to want to have it cancelled so the people who do can't see it. I should just move on to something else. Like Wheaton conveyed on a BBT episode, why let the show (in this case) live rent free in my head?  If you loved the show in Seasons 1-3, and you haven't liked it since then, why would you (et al) think it's going to all of a sudden change back? The characters have (had to) develop or the show would get stagnate. For those, feel free to leave here or stay, but you needn't inject negativity into every conversation to ruin it for the people who do enjoy it.

JMO

I'm not quite sure why there is a problem with the concept but this was specifically noted in the my previous post:

What we don't allow is attacks on other posters.  This includes snarky or highly sarcastic remarks or questioning whether someone should be posting here, if they, in your opinion, don't like the show or if you think what they are posting is negative.  By all means, post your opinion OF THE SHOW.  Don't be negative about another poster's interpretation or opinion.

if someone's post involves negative opinions, as long as they are posted in the proper sub-forum, or not posted in shipping threads, there isn't a problem.  If you think there is something against the rules,  don't post about it, report it.  And that's not just my opinion,  that is also Trippers opinion also.  That's why it's in the rules.

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I guess the thing is that you can't be all things to all people. If you allow negativity in every thread, it is going to push away people who rather want a generally carefree fandom experience, which, since this is a hobby, is perfectly understandable. On the other hand, if any hint of negativity is stomped on, you'll lose the people more interested in mixed discussion. This forum does try to be both, which I find laudable, but it is a difficult balance to strike, since these kind of things tend to spill over from thread to thread.

(On a side note, my other fandoms are mostly centered around tumblr, so I find this discussion kind of happily old-fashioned because so few fandoms still happen on message boards (and thus come with moderators). From my experience, even the biggest fights in the discussion thread are schoolyard spats compared to the unmoderated wild, wild west out there, which has both its good and bad sides.)

Also, as for the lapsed fans, I think it's difficult to let go of things you really liked because you do know that technically, all the ingredients are still there for it to be as good as it used to be. And it's not like I don't enjoy TBBT at all, in my case; the actors are still good (my main reason), some writing is quite snappy, and some character dynamics still work. Really, that makes it almost more annoying to me, hence my occasional complaining here. It's like watching someone drive a really pretty car straight into a wall. (And yes, I know. It's a very popular TV show, money talks, the devs have no reason to change it, etc. Fair enough. I don't expect them to. However, as the dominance of reality TV proves to us, popularity does not necessarily equal quality.) The disgruntledness of formerly loyal fans usually means to me that certain shows/books/etc. really struck a chord at some point, so it's almost a weirdly twisted compliment in itself. I've read the Twilight series for curiosity's sake, for example, and aside from an occasional joke, you won't ever hear me talk about that because I never thought it deserved my mental energy that much at any point; to me, it was never salvageable*. TBBT is quite different.

*(sorry to all Twihards for dragging Twilight into this; your opinion may differ, of course, and indeed I know quite a few ardent fans who showed the same angry fan attitude we see here over Twilight 4)

Edited by A.D.A.
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On 9/9/2016 at 10:35 AM, Tensor said:

 

 

I'm not quite sure why there is a problem with the concept but this was specifically noted in the my previous post:

What we don't allow is attacks on other posters.  This includes snarky or highly sarcastic remarks or questioning whether someone should be posting here, if they, in your opinion, don't like the show or if you think what they are posting is negative.  By all means, post your opinion OF THE SHOW.  Don't be negative about another poster's interpretation or opinion.

if someone's post involves negative opinions, as long as they are posted in the proper sub-forum, or not posted in shipping threads, there isn't a problem.  If you think there is something against the rules,  don't post about it, report it.  And that's not just my opinion,  that is also Trippers opinion also.  That's why it's in the rules.

I don't know what you're getting out of my post, but I am not saying if you have a negative opinion that you shouldn't post here. First, I specifically said I was not talking about one member (et al). Second, I said that I can't understand why one would waste their time and energy. And then gave me Enterprise story.  Just wanted to straighten that out.

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13 hours ago, BigBang15 said:

I don't know what you're getting out of my post, but I am not saying if you have a negative opinion that you shouldn't post here. First, I specifically said I was not talking about one member (et al). Second, I said that I can't understand why one would waste their time and energy. And then gave me Enterprise story.  Just wanted to straighten that out.

Just because one chooses to deconstruct a show negatively, does not mean one can presume they do not like the show anymore.  They are two seperate things. You can analyze things you love. especially if something you love was worth being salvaged, as this show is.  Just because one may say something negative about the show, does not change the narrative or function of actually watching.  Because tbh their is a lot wrong with BBT these days. No point denying that, The quality has declined,  Like some said popularity does not = Quality. And Vice Versa. That's different from not watching at all. For one to have an insight into a show, good and bad. You need some lvl of investment. 

ETA: FYI about Amy and Science plots, I Think she gets alot more then the guys actually. YOu see her in her lab more then Sheldon and Leonard do. But as she is a supporting player. Penny gets alot of screen time, as she always be the Main Female Character. Prob not enough time in 24 minutes, to have a Amy Science Plot. 

Edited by 3ku11
Removed comments directed at other posters
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I don't see this major decline that people talk of, sure there are some aspects I would personally change but I am not the only viewer and I think it's a fair criticism that they are having difficulty at times with the writing in regards to developing and advancing relationships but at the same time keeping the concept of the show to what it has always been.

Even if we go with this much heralded 'peak' period of the show there were times when the writers didn't get it right one week with a particular storyline or episode. That's the difficulty of writing and producing a show that focuses on different storylines or characters each week, we are being told the life story of these characters that will face new experiences, challenges and outcomes both good and bad. it's not just one simplistic point a to point b narrative.

The good thing about the show is that let's say we accept they do sometimes get it wrong, it's undeniable that they get far more right even now after 9 seasons with a 10 around the corner. This is not a flawless show but it deserves every bit or praise it gets and then some.

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I strongley disagree, I think their has been a major decline in the show since Season 7. Due too way too many inconsistencies, repeated Cannon e.t.c. Compared to other sitcoms, BBT is still watchable. But if we compare it to its original, geeky, unique former self. It is a former shadow of it self, and it has kinda become a parody within it self. Now I beleive the show has made some terrible choices, that has really kinda killed the show the past three seasons. I think they have made more faults, then successes. Choosing to get Lenny engaged, then dragging it out for over a year. Not even mention it, then 8x24. Then go another year. And go oh look at this sweet wedding, were pulling off. Your only pulling off cos you screwed up. Then dragging out Shamy coitus for 3 seasons, to the point it felt anti climatic. I see the decline similar to Heroes. Now The reason the show is still watachble, despite the many things wrong with it. IS the characters. Theirs still enough creativity their. If you suspend your disbelif, the show really is about Young Student Professionals now. IT is time the show get rid of the intiial premise, and embrace that. If they want to go beyond s10. Now I respect above opinions, its not a democracy. But thats just my two cents. 

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15 hours ago, Jonny83 said:

I don't see this major decline that people talk of, sure there are some aspects I would personally change but I am not the only viewer and I think it's a fair criticism that they are having difficulty at times with the writing in regards to developing and advancing relationships but at the same time keeping the concept of the show to what it has always been.

Even if we go with this much heralded 'peak' period of the show there were times when the writers didn't get it right one week with a particular storyline or episode. That's the difficulty of writing and producing a show that focuses on different storylines or characters each week, we are being told the life story of these characters that will face new experiences, challenges and outcomes both good and bad. it's not just one simplistic point a to point b narrative.

The good thing about the show is that let's say we accept they do sometimes get it wrong, it's undeniable that they get far more right even now after 9 seasons with a 10 around the corner. This is not a flawless show but it deserves every bit or praise it gets and then some.

I actually think it has gotten much better than in s1-s3

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For my part, I spent the majority of the summer hiatus traveling, but I have to be honest and say I was in no hurry to rush back to the forum.   While there were some exciting Shamy moments in S9, I found myself increasingly dissatisfied with the way they were being written.   Going through the break up.   Seeing Amy's seeming indifference to it and then her sudden desire to return to status quo.   The rush to coitus after reconciliation and then return again to status quo.   Having Amy tell Meemaw to stop treating Sheldon like a child, while she does so herself.  Having Sheldon refer to apologies as "nonsense" when he knows he is in the wrong.  Seeing Sheldon still having to be pushed to say/do the right thing, etc.   Feeling like the Lenny shippers were getting screwed by the writers.  It got old, and frankly I burned out.

I just got so frustrated that I couldn't vent without others telling me how I should feel.   My perceptions, whether realistic or not, stemmed from the way the stories were written, with no real closure and what I thought were many inconsistencies in what we have come to know about the characters we love so much.   So many cliché's that could have been avoided, like Amy making some major career advancement in her absence from Sheldon rather than pining for a man.   The group constantly making fun of Sheldon about not knowing what a girlfriend is used for, but the subject of finally having sex doesn't even deserve a minor taunt from his friends.   It just seems there were so many opportunities missed by the writers in S9 for more quality in the storylines.

I never stopped being a fan of the show or a Shamy shipper, but I needed to take a break.   I had become consumed from the negativity and had forgotten what I loved about Shamy.    I've gotten my focus back and have rejoined the forum, but I intend to put a lot more thought into making my posts.   Before I post any of my frustrations, I will take more time to see if the evidence is really there to support them or if I am just being paranoid and need a moment to calm down.   Maybe what I need to do is watch a few future episodes before i draw conclusions on what may or may not happen when I am worried about a specific direction a storyline might be headed.

Edited by jenafan
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