Tripper

1024 'The Long Distance Dissonance' (May 11)

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2 minutes ago, Judith said:

Like I said, the reasons for the writers writing Penny that way are in the show. It's not that they won't let her, they write her that way because it makes sense to the story.

Like I said, everything in the show is because of the writers but the point of writing a story is to have the audience immersed in the characters and for the characters to have a life of their own inside the story's universe.

Why is Sheldon an ass? It's part of who he is. As we've seen in the show, he can be obnoxious and egotistical.

Why does Amy have the patience of a saint? It's part of her character. She can be very patient and understanding, as evidenced by her behaviour towards Sheldon.

Why did Penny propose to Leonard in 7.23? Because her career was going to hell and she was looking for a life saver.

Why does Penny make bad life choices? Because she feels lost and things didn't go according to her plan, so she's looking for the next best thing (Leonard) which is evidently sucking the life out of her.

See? No mention of thewritersmadethemdoit! anywhere. I just watch the show and interpret what I see/hear.

Eta: Lorre might have told the writers to break Lenny up but in universe it made sense which is all that matters.

The writers make the characters do everything, the other part of the equation is to interpret what the characters do in universe. In the writers room the writers decided to have Penny make bad life choices for certain reasons. In tbbt universe it translates to "she's made bad life choices because she was lost and now she's unhappy with her life because of these choices". In tbbt universe there are no writers so Penny can't be miserable in her marriage because of them.

So if the writers make Amy cheat on Sheldon while at Princeton we are not allowed to cmomplain because there are no writers in the TBBT universe?

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Posted (edited)
16 minutes ago, bfm said:

So if the writers make Amy cheat on Sheldon while at Princeton we are not allowed to cmomplain because there are no writers in the TBBT universe?

I'm not saying you're not allowed to complain. It's hypocritical though to yell "it's the writers not the characters" whenever Lenny do sth undesirable. It's still the characters who did it so saying that it's the writers makes you come across as not wanting to accept certain behaviours and waving them away with the writers excuse.

Edited by Tensor
Comment about other posters removed.

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3 minutes ago, Judith said:

Eta: Lorre might have told the writers to break Lenny up but in universe it made sense which is all that matters.

Exactly, it was the writers that broke them up, because Lorre told them to, not because of anything in universe.  The decision to break them up, came before anything was written.  

3 minutes ago, Judith said:

The writers make the characters do everything,

Yep.  

3 minutes ago, Judith said:

the other part of the equation is to interpret what the characters do in universe.

Not necessarily.  I base it all on what the writers do.  And, who determines what is the correct way to interpret it?  

 

3 minutes ago, Judith said:

 In the writers room the writers decided to have Penny make bad life choices for certain reasons.

Exactly what I've been saying all along.  Without the writers, there wouldn't be bad life choices.  Penny isn't making those choices, the writers are.  

3 minutes ago, Judith said:

 In tbbt universe it translates to "she's made bad life choices because she was lost and now she's unhappy with her life because of these choices". 

Well, it depends, doesn't it?  You think she's made bad life choices, because she's lost.  I say, she's made bad life choices because the writers have decided she will make bad life choices.  

3 minutes ago, Judith said:

In tbbt universe there are no writers so Penny can't be miserable in her marriage because of them.

But, without the writers, there would be no TBBT universe.  

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Posted (edited)
12 minutes ago, Tensor said:

 

 

Exactly, it was the writers that broke them up, because Lorre told them to, not because of anything in universe.  The decision to break them up, came before anything was written.  

Yep.  

Not necessarily.  I base it all on what the writers do.  And, who determines what is the correct way to interpret it?  

 

Exactly what I've been saying all along.  Without the writers, there wouldn't be bad life choices.  Penny isn't making those choices, the writers are.  

Well, it depends, doesn't it?  You think she's made bad life choices, because she's lost.  I say, she's made bad life choices because the writers have decided she will make bad life choices.  

But, without the writers, there would be no TBBT universe.  

Dude I've been telling you from the very beginning that everything starts in the writers' minds.

 

Eta: Lorre might have told the writers to break Lenny up but in universe it made sense which is all that matters.

The writers make the characters do everything, the other part of the equation is to interpret what the characters do in universe. In the writers room the writers decided to have Penny make bad life choices for certain reasons. In tbbt universe it translates to "she's made bad life choices because she was lost and now she's unhappy with her life because of these choices". In tbbt universe there are no writers so Penny can't be miserable in her marriage because of them.

Edited by Tensor
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5 minutes ago, Judith said:

I'm not saying you're not allowed to complain. It's hypocritical though to yell "it's the writers not the characters" whenever Lenny do sth undesirable. It's still the characters who did it so saying that it's the writers makes you come across as not wanting to accept certain behaviours and waving them away with the writers excuse.

 It's not hypocritical if both the good and bad are attributed to the writers.  

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Just now, Tensor said:

 It's not hypocritical if both the good and bad are attributed to the writers.  

It is when you refuse to examine why the characters did so and so and immediately use the writers did it excuse.

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Just now, Judith said:

It is when you refuse to examine why the characters did so and so and immediately use the writers did it excuse.

Nope.  If you see it as everything is from the writers, then the reason the characters do things, there is no need to examine why.  Because the reason why, is because it was the choice of the writers.   There's nothing hypocritical there.  

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13 minutes ago, Judith said:

I'm not saying you're not allowed to complain. It's hypocritical though to yell "it's the writers not the characters" whenever Lenny do sth undesirable. It's still the characters who did it so saying that it's the writers makes you come across as not wanting to accept certain behaviours and waving them away with the writers excuse. Like, this happens with almost every single line/action coming from Lenny these days.

It may have become much more common because the things written for them are now much less justified. Many feel that the writers don't care about them so they write things that don't go with the characters and their history. When Lenny were fighting in "The Comic-Con Conundrum" I didn't say it was bad writing because it was rooted in each of them not wanting the other to suffer. It was justified, it went well with their chracters even though it was fighting.  When Leonard joked that Penny wouldn't clean anything ("The Gyroscopic Collapse") I liked it because it went with Penny's character and Leoonard joking about it wasn't out of character for him. 

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5 minutes ago, Judith said:

Dude I've been telling you from the very beginning that everything starts in the writers' minds.

Which is what I've been saying.  There is no need to interpret it in universe, simply because it's the writers who create the universe.  

5 minutes ago, Judith said:

Eta: Lorre might have told the writers to break Lenny up but in universe it made sense which is all that matters.

The writers make the characters do everything, the other part of the equation is to interpret what the characters do in universe. In the writers room the writers decided to have Penny make bad life choices for certain reasons. In tbbt universe it translates to "she's made bad life choices because she was lost and now she's unhappy with her life because of these choices". In tbbtuniverse there are no writers so Penny can't be miserable in her marriage because of them.

 

Repeating it doesn't change the fact that the writers make the decisions.  The writers don't even have to make it make sense in universe, if they don't want to.  Penny wouldn't be (as you say) miserable, without the writers.  

 

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Just now, Tensor said:

Nope.  If you see it as everything is from the writers, then the reason the characters do things, there is no need to examine why.  Because the reason why, is because it was the choice of the writers.   There's nothing hypocritical there.  

The point of a show is to entertain people with what the characters do and say. If you've got the mentality of "the writers make them do/say everything anyway" then you might as well stop watching cause then the characters lose their meaning. Also, if you really believed that since everything comes from the writers there's no point in examining why the characters do these things, there wouldn't be all these posts in the forum about how Lenny used to be good to each other but now they're not. By that logic, they used to be good to each other because of the writers, so whatever, who cares?

1 minute ago, Tensor said:

Which is what I've been saying.  There is no need to interpret it in universe, simply because it's the writers who create the universe.  

Repeating it doesn't change the fact that the writers make the decisions.  The writers don't even have to make it make sense in universe, if they don't want to.  Penny wouldn't be (as you say) miserable, without the writers.  

 

Then you must be swallowing everything you see in the show without processing it. Of course there's a need to interpret it in universe. Lorre might have told the writers to break up Lenny but the writers had to find a way to go about it that would make sense. Leonard blurting I love you in bed made sense, otherwise they woukd just have the characters say "we broke up" and get it over with.

They're professional writers who know what they're doing. Everything they've shown with the Lenny story so far points to something wrong going on. Saying it's the writers' fault not Penny won't change anything.

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2 minutes ago, Judith said:

The point of a show is to entertain people with what the characters do and say. If you've got the mentality of "the writers make them do/say everything anyway" then you might as well stop watching cause then the characters lose their meaning. Also, if you really believed that since everything comes from the writers there's no point in examining why the characters do these things, there wouldn't be all these posts in the forum about how Lenny used to be good to each other but now they're not. By that logic, they used to be good to each other because of the writers, so whatever, who cares?

The starting point is the writers make everything. However, they may have different motives/things in mind when writing different stuff. I will speak for myself: I feel that the writers wrote many things for Lenny in the past because apart from wanting to draw audiences and make it fun they cared for the characters and thought about what may fit them and their story. Nowadays I feel they don't care and barely spend time thinking about the characters and their story and they write them because they feel obligated to keep them there and increasingly also in order to make Sheldon/Shamy look better by comparison. The result is many unjustified things, things that don't match or result logically from the characters and their history.

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Posted (edited)

I buy into the idea that they need better storylines both as individuals and as a couple. It's not an issue of merely screen time, that convention storyline earlier this season surely proved that. If you are going to give them more storylines like that then maybe seeing more of them isn't a good idea.

I don't at all buy into this theory they are merely on the show and being paid what in excess of $80m dollars over the next two years as some sort of compare and contrast with another couple to make them look better. That sounds far fetched.

Edited by Jonny
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1 minute ago, Judith said:

The point of a show is to entertain people with what the characters do and say. If you've got the mentality of "the writers make them do/say everything anyway" then you might as well stop watching cause then the characters lose their meaning. 

Maybe that's how it works for you.  They haven't lost their meaning for me, even if I see the writers as making them say/do everything.  

  

6 minutes ago, Judith said:

Also, if you really believed that since everything comes from the writers there's no point in examining why the characters do these things, there wouldn't be all these posts in the forum about how Lenny used to be good to each other but now they're not.

I can examine them from any or all points.  I've given my interpretation as to how I see how the writers write them.  

 

6 minutes ago, Judith said:

 By that logic, they used to be good to each other because of the writers, so whatever, who cares?

I cared when they wrote them as good to each other.  I still care that they don't write them that way anymore.  Either way, the reason is simply because the writers are writing them whatever way, they want to.  

The difference between us, I guess, is that I find the reason for their actions, on what they writers want them to do, based on reasons outside the in universe of the show.  For example, the reason for Sheldon being on his knee, with the ring to be based on the writers determining it's time for a Shamy engagement, and it makes a nice cliffhanger, to rope viewers in for the first episode, next year   You find the reason for Sheldon's actions, perhaps as a reaction to Ramona's kiss and the realization, for Sheldon, that he needs Amy to make him happy.  

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4 minutes ago, bfm said:

The starting point is the writers make everything. However, they may have different motives/things in mind when writing different stuff. I will speak for myself: I feel that the writers wrote many things for Lenny in the past because apart from wanting to draw audiences and make it fun they cared for the characters and thought about what may fit them and their story. Nowadays I feel they don't care and barely spend time thinking about the characters and their story and they write them because they feel obligated to keep them there and increasingly also in order to make Sheldon/Shamy look better by comparison. The result is many unjustified things, things that don't match or result logically from the characters and their history.

I don't understand why the writers would want to write something bad for Lenny to make Shamy look better so I don't agree with that.

I agree that the writers don't care to give Lenny major plots these days but I also think that the execution of what they've been given fits with how I think of them in my mind. I know you don't agree but I see the Lenny relationship very differently. The writers can have a million different reasons for anything they write in the show but at the end of the day they will always have to find a way to make things fit in.

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5 minutes ago, Jonny said:

I buy into the idea that they need better storylines both as individuals and as a couple. It's not an issue of merely screen time, that convention storyline earlier this season surely proved that. If you are going to give them more storylines like that then maybe seeing more if them isn't a good idea.

I don't at all buy into this theory they are merely on the show and being paid what in excess of $80m dollars over the next two years as some sort of compare and contrast with another couple to make them look better. That sounds far fetched.

Lenny is at the moment just some sort of relationship adviser for Shamy with no own plots at all. To me that is a little bit of waste of two actors. 

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1 minute ago, Tensor said:

 

Maybe that's how it works for you.  They haven't lost their meaning for me, even if I see the writers as making them say/do everything.  

  

I can examine them from any or all points.  I've given my interpretation as to how I see how the writers write them.  

 

I cared when they wrote them as good to each other.  I still care that they don't write them that way anymore.  Either way, the reason is simply because the writers are writing them whatever way, they want to.  

The difference between us, I guess, is that I find the reason for their actions, on what they writers want them to do, based on reasons outside the in universe of the show.  For example, the reason for Sheldon being on his knee, with the ring to be based on the writers determining it's time for a Shamy engagement, and it makes a nice cliffhanger, to rope viewers in for the first episode, next year   You find the reason for Sheldon's actions, perhaps as a reaction to Ramona's kiss and the realization, for Sheldon, that he needs Amy to make him happy.  

I think they're writing them in the way that they want to while at the same time doing it in a way that fits in the show.

One thing doesn't exclude the other. Sheldon was on his knee proposing because the writers decided it was time for that but that goes for everything else in the show. The in universe reason is he wanted to propose and Ramona was the trigger that made it happen.

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6 minutes ago, Lagernisse said:

Lenny is at the moment just some sort of relationship adviser for Shamy with no own plots at all. To me that is a little bit of waste of two actors. 

I think they are being wasted as well, I just suspect we have different reasons why we think that's the case and solutions ultimately to address it.

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2 minutes ago, Jonny said:

I think they are being wasted as well, I just suspect we have different reasons why we think that's the case and solutions ultimately to address it.

I think this is the way Lenny will be for the next 48 episodes so there is sadly nothing to solve. 

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3 minutes ago, Judith said:

One thing doesn't exclude the other. Sheldon was on his knee proposing because the writers decided it was time for that but that goes for everything else in the show. 

But this is my point. The writers decided it was time.  If the writers decided the time wasn't right, Sheldon wouldn't have been down on one knee. 

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1 minute ago, Tensor said:

But this is my point. The writers decided it was time.  If the writers decided the time wasn't right, Sheldon wouldn't have been down on one knee. 

This is only half the equation. The other half is, they decided it was time and executed it in a way that makes sense in the show. Which is the same for everything Lenny are going through.

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1 minute ago, Judith said:

This is only half the equation. The other half is, they decided it was time and executed it in a way that makes sense in the show. Which is the same for everything Lenny are going through.

This is why I can't buy into your idea.  It doesn't make sense for everyone.  From comments, not everyone thinks it was the right reaction for Sheldon to run and propose. Nor, does everyone think what's happening with Lenny is bad. What is agreed upon, is that the writers are the ones that created the situations. 

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Posted (edited)
26 minutes ago, Tensor said:

This is why I can't buy into your idea.  It doesn't make sense for everyone.  From comments, not everyone thinks it was the right reaction for Sheldon to run and propose. Nor, does everyone think what's happening with Lenny is bad. What is agreed upon, is that the writers are the ones that created the situations. 

But my original point wasn't about Sheldon. It was that every time Lenny do something questionable, people will say it's the writers' fault. There's never any attempt to interpret these actions in the show, unless the characters do something nice. Which yes, I find highly suspicious.

Edited by Judith

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2 minutes ago, Judith said:

But my original point wasn't about Sheldon. It was that every time Lenny do something questionable, people will say it's the writers' fault. There's never any attempt to interpret these actions in the show, unless the characters do something nice.

And, so?  Tripper has it set up, within the rules, that if people want to do it that way, they are allowed to do that.  Without getting negative comments about it. You can disagree, and state how you see things about the show. People just can't be derogatory about how others see it. 

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8 minutes ago, Tensor said:

And, so?  Tripper has it set up, within the rules, that if people want to do it that way, they are allowed to do that.  Without getting negative comments about it. You can disagree, and state how you see things about the show. People just can't be derogatory about how others see it. 

You're the one who started this back and forth with me by stating the obvious - that the writers make Lenny do stuff in the show, so I responded in kind. Anyway, I have things to do outside this forum so I'm not going to recycle my arguments. I've said what I wanted to say and I'm done on this matter.

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10 minutes ago, Judith said:

You're the one who started this back and forth with me by stating the obvious - that the writers make Lenny do stuff in the show, so I responded in kind. Anyway, I have things to do outside this forum so I'm not going to recycle my arguments. I've said what I wanted to say and I'm done on this matter.

I started the back and forth by stating how I see the show?  I'm working on an article or two, so I'm already on the computer, couple with these not taking long to answer, once I get a notification, this isn't that big of a deal for me.  

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