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veejay

In Memory of The Leonard and Penny Saga.

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10 minutes ago, bfm said:

I think TPTB are too afraid so they are keeping them stagnant and fill in stupid pointless fights, which makes things untrue to the characters and unrealistic.

Agree with you about the baby stuff, especially about the part I quoted you. Imo the bigest problem was actors had expressed they would not enjoy babies on set and that might limit a storyplot about "smart and beautiful babies " from lenny. Howardette baby is not seen but another unseen baby would be too repetitive imo.  As you said there are many ways to not have a baby all the time on set but writers had prefered to keep lenny around same pointless storyplots, what is a pity imo. I think writers must pay attention to the things that are failing in tbbt universe. SDCC would be a great opportunity for some not satisfied fans to express their worries to tbbt staff. Maybe they could be aware about the consequences of their choices what is storyplots concerned.

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15 minutes ago, spidergirl said:

Agree with you about the baby stuff, especially about the part I quoted you. Imo the bigest problem was actors had expressed they would not enjoy babies on set and that might limit a storyplot about "smart and beautiful babies " from lenny. Howardette baby is not seen but another unseen baby would be too repetitive imo.  As you said there are many ways to not have a baby all the time on set but writers had prefered to keep lenny around same pointless storyplots, what is a pity imo. I think writers must pay attention to the things that are failing in tbbt universe. SDCC would be a great opportunity for some not satisfied fans to express their worries to tbbt staff. Maybe they could be aware about the consequences of their choices what is storyplots concerned.

I think the actors are paid enough to tolerate a few minutes per 2 episodes with a baby. 

The SDCC from what I have seen is usually very supportive to the writers, no many complaints voiced there. I hope someone will have the courage to tell them what their writing is doing to Lenny and that the organizers will allow it but I don't expect that.

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3 minutes ago, bfm said:

I think the actors are paid enough to tolerate a few minutes per 2 episodes with a baby. 

Agree.

3 minutes ago, bfm said:

The SDCC from what I have seen is usually very supportive to the writers, no many complaints voiced there. I hope someone will have the courage to tell them what their writing is doing to Lenny and that the organizers will allow it but I don't expect that.

Yeah, you are right about the supportiveness tone there. But it would be the perfect place for a complain like that imo. But probably won't happen though.

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10 minutes ago, bfm said:

I think the actors are paid enough to tolerate a few minutes per 2 episodes with a baby. 

Keep in mind though it's not just about the actors tolerating a baby for a few minutes - it's about the whole production having to work around the strict working restrictions. The way the show is filmed in front of a live audience doesn't exactly lend itself for using babies and toddlers a lot.

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4 hours ago, hokie3457 said:

It is not the storybook type of love we would like to see, but in the end, I am confident they are going to be fine. 

If it's not what I want to see, why bother watching?   Because they are going to be fine in the end?  Oh boy, two years of crappy Lenny, just so we get a good episode at the end.  No thanks.  

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1 hour ago, bfm said:

Exactly!

And you know what? I don't think the baby plot would be so terrible that it should not be done. It seems like they see it as a big threat so they won't do it, maybe just have her pregnant/giving birth at the finale. But what are they so afraid of? IMO, they could be creative and make awesome episodes out of it of they made the efforts. Would it be so bad to see Penny with a genius baby? Maybe she will be amazed by the baby's fast development pace while Leonard doesn't get why it is such a huge deal because in his family everybody had that pace. Would it be so bad to see Leonard standing his ground when it comes to the baby, making Sheldon surprised and offended that Leonard does not succumb to his needs anymore? Would it be so bad to see Penny gushing about her baby like crazy while she keeps her cool demeanor about everything else? Would it be so bad to see Sheldon coming up with weird complaints about the baby (e.g., he expected to here her/his cry from his apartment but he can't) I think there are a lot of options there. Lenny are different from Howardette they both can have babies and have interedting original stories. They don't even need to have a baby on set that much, they have a big enough two bedroom apartment they can always say the baby is sleeping in the room or in the crib in the corner of the room which is far enough for a doll to be not too obvious.  

I think TPTB are too afraid so they are keeping them stagnant and fill in stupid pointless fights, which makes things untrue to the characters and unrealistic.

I agree that the baby plotline would be a good arc for season 11.   They do not have to show her pregnant (not until season 12 anyway) but maybe have them trying to conceive so they are thinking about taking the next step in their marriage. Some people have mentioned the Chuck Lorre interview and think that he might want them to continue bickering in their marriage, but I read Steven Molaro's interview where he said that Penny and Leonard make each other better and helped each other mature to be responsible adults. He also did mention that they probably will continue their ups and downs as a married couple. But how better can a storyline be for them than a babyplot line of them trying to conceive and all the joy and disappointments that go with that scenario.

 

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1 hour ago, April said:

Keep in mind though it's not just about the actors tolerating a baby for a few minutes - it's about the whole production having to work around the strict working restrictions. The way the show is filmed in front of a live audience doesn't exactly lend itself for using babies and toddlers a lot.

There are pretaped scenes. 

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6 hours ago, bfm said:

There are pretaped scenes. 

I know. But they prefer to keep those to a minimum in favour of the live experience. If you want to have a prominent baby story (as in Lenny interacting with their kid on screen frequently) that would be a departure from their usual routine and I can understand the writers and everybody else being hesitant of such changes.

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1 hour ago, April said:

I know. But they prefer to keep those to a minimum in favour of the live experience. If you want to have a prominent baby story (as in Lenny interacting with their kid on screen frequently) that would be a departure from their usual routine and I can understand the writers and everybody else being hesitant of such changes.

As I said there are ways to minimize the use of an actual baby. I understand them being hesitant but it has got to the point that the current situation is unrealstic and untrue to the characters. If they had ended the series in season 10 it wouldn't have been that bad but now we are going for 2 more years (or at least one and a half if they will "dare" to do the unthinkable and have her pregnant before the finale) of Lenny being stagnant with stupid fights thrown in to fill the void...

Edited by bfm
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2 minutes ago, bfm said:

As I said there are ways to minimize the use of an actual baby. I understand them being hesitant but it has got to the point that the current situation is unrealstic and untrue to the characters. If they had ended the series in season 10 it wouldn't have been that bad but now we are going for 2 more years (or at least one and a half if they will "dare" to do the unthinkable and have her pregnant before the finale) of Lenny being stagnant with stupid fights thrown in to fill the void...

Minimising the baby would get us another Halley situation and I'm not sure that this would be a good solution either cause then we'd end up with Lenny getting hand-me-down plots from Howardette. They can get away with the off-screen baby with Howardette because of the running gag with Howard's mother -  not so much with Lenny on the main set.

Look, as I said in one of the other threads, I'm all for a pregnancy plot but I just don't see a baby on set any time soon if they can avoid it. Give Lenny a season to sort out their trouble and decide to make the next step, then let Penny get pregnant in S12 and have the baby by the end of it. That makes the most sense to me right now.

 

 

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Well, we seem to have learnt that it's not just Molaro to blame for the destruction of the beauty that was Lenny, Lorre himself is to blame.

I don't think they need a baby, in fact that would be another example of the writers ruining the show by forgetting that they created the 3 couples quite differently in the first place. Lenny were created as the only truly romantic couple, and Penny is the only possible romantic heroine. By trying to put Shamy/Amy in those roles at this stage they have created a grotesque parody of what they first created. Similarly Bernadette and Howard are the only truly domestic couple  and fully satisfy the requirement for a parenthood story. Copying it with P & L would just look silly.

If the writers can't think of anything for Lenny to do after marriage except have children the whole series should haver terminated when the got married, or even when they got engaged. Obviously a couple like Lenny can be expected to have children eventually but we don't need to see it. TBBT isn't going to be a multi-generational saga that will outlive us all, is it?

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21 hours ago, luminous said:

The perfect stuff for the "Dark Lenny Thread".

From an interview with Chuck Lorre, he gave Times Live, published on June 5.  In case you missed it.

TL: There’s a fan theory that Leonard and Penny may be in some deep relationship trouble. Is a split is on the cards?

CL: Not at the moment, no. It’s very clear that they are very very different people. Their backgrounds, their view of life… they’re extremely different so their relationship is fraught with difficulties in that they see the world very differently. As writers, we believe they love each other dearly, but their difficulties in their relationship, I think will continue.

It looks (sounds) as if they don't even really know the characters they're writing. It seems to me that all the special Lenny moments we got during S1-S7 were merely happy coincidences and not planned events at all.

7 hours ago, bfm said:

As I said there are ways to minimize the use of an actual baby. I understand them being hesitant but it has got to the point that the current situation is unrealstic and untrue to the characters. If they had ended the series in season 10 it wouldn't have been that bad but now we are going for 2 more years (or at least one and a half if they will "dare" to do the unthinkable and have her pregnant before the finale) of Lenny being stagnant with stupid fights thrown in to fill the void...

... then my prayers would have been answered...

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7 minutes ago, Carlos said:

It looks (sounds) as if they don't even really know the characters they're writing. It seems to me that all the special Lenny moments we got during S1-S7 were merely happy coincidences and not planned events at all.

 

Or due to the wonderful acting of KC and JG.

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38 minutes ago, JohnPhD said:

Or due to the wonderful acting of KC and JG.

Indeed !!!!!!!

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1 hour ago, JohnPhD said:

Or due to the wonderful acting of KC and JG.

c_0068.gif.e3e1ed1290a59ebcf96c143e9ccd1264.gif

:shy:

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8 hours ago, April said:

Minimising the baby would get us another Halley situation and I'm not sure that this would be a good solution either cause then we'd end up with Lenny getting hand-me-down plots from Howardette. They can get away with the off-screen baby with Howardette because of the running gag with Howard's mother -  not so much with Lenny on the main set.

Look, as I said in one of the other threads, I'm all for a pregnancy plot but I just don't see a baby on set any time soon if they can avoid it. Give Lenny a season to sort out their trouble and decide to make the next step, then let Penny get pregnant in S12 and have the baby by the end of it. That makes the most sense to me right now.

 

 

They can interact with the baby character or describe their interactions with her/him without showing an actual baby frequently. They barely do that with Halley, it is mostly about her crying. 

While I support this idea I do not think it will happen. I also don't think they will have them sorting out problems because it will leave them with nothing to do with the little screen time Lenny get. Sorting out problems wouldn't take that much and won't be humorous enough for them to make it a season long arc. Besides, most of their fights are unjustified and pointless so there isn't so much to solve. It's not that there are some deep overarching issues they have never adressed. They fight because they fight. Don't get me wrong, I want resolution but there isn't much to work with when the writers have them fighting "just because". They have communication issues and insecurities but they have been through this many times. I can't see them working on their problems for a whole season.

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5 hours ago, JohnPhD said:

Well, we seem to have learnt that it's not just Molaro to blame for the destruction of the beauty that was Lenny, Lorre himself is to blame.

I don't think they need a baby, in fact that would be another example of the writers ruining the show by forgetting that they created the 3 couples quite differently in the first place. Lenny were created as the only truly romantic couple, and Penny is the only possible romantic heroine. By trying to put Shamy/Amy in those roles at this stage they have created a grotesque parody of what they first created. Similarly Bernadette and Howard are the only truly domestic couple  and fully satisfy the requirement for a parenthood story. Copying it with P & L would just look silly.

If the writers can't think of anything for Lenny to do after marriage except have children the whole series should haver terminated when the got married, or even when they got engaged. Obviously a couple like Lenny can be expected to have children eventually but we don't need to see it. TBBT isn't going to be a multi-generational saga that will outlive us all, is it?

I think that starting a family can be romantic in it's own way. I found their talk in "The Positive Negative Reaction" romantic. But that depends on how ypu define romantic, to each their own.

Also, I think that besides being romantic Lenny have been "the parents"/"the mature adults" of the show many many times. In fact, I thought they should have kids before Howardette (this could be outside of the show if it ended in season 10). Howardette, IMO, weren't that "domestic". Maybe more since his mother passed. But Bernadette wasn't into babies and she also wasn't "the mature adult" as much as she is since she got pregnant. The show just got very long so, IMO, change was necessary. However, I think some of the changes (e.g., the stupid S10 Lenny fights) were very bad.

Edited by bfm
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21 minutes ago, bfm said:

They can interact with the baby character or describe their interactions with her/him without showing an actual baby frequently. They barely do that with Halley, it is mostly about her crying. 

While I support this idea I do not think it will happen. I also don't think they will have them sorting out problems because it will leave them with nothing to do with the little screen time Lenny get. Sorting out problems wouldn't take that much and won't be humorous enough for them to make it a season long arc. Besides, most of their fights are unjustified and pointless so there isn't so much to solve. It's not that there are some deep overarching issues they have never adressed. They fight because they fight. Don't get me wrong, I want resolution but there isn't much to work with when the writers have them fighting "just because". They have communication issues and insecurities but they have been through this many times. I can't see them working on their problems for a whole season.

...it will be continued (within a so called comedy, sigh!).

c_0071.gif.9e042f8a61048fb7522c55b4a791c32d.gif

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4 minutes ago, veejay said:

...it will be continued (within a so called comedy, sigh!).

c_0071.gif.9e042f8a61048fb7522c55b4a791c32d.gif

I know this is off topic, but I just love to see then standing together.....

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3 minutes ago, bfm said:

I think that starting a family can be romantic in it's own way. I found their talk in "The Positive Negative Reaction" romantic. But that depends on how ypu define romantic, to each their own.

Also, I think that besides being romantic Lenny have been "the parents"/"the mature adults" of the show many many times. In fact, I thought they should have kids before Howardette (this could be outside of the show if it ended in season 10). Howrdette, IMO, weren't that "domestic". Maybe more since his mother passed. But Bernadette wasn't into babies and she also wasn't "the mature adult" as much as she is since she got pregnant. The show just got very long so, IMO, change was necessary. However, I think some of the changes (e.g., the stupid S10 Lenny fights) were very bad.

That's very true. The only other character who could possibly be considered a mature adult is Bernadette. What you point out raises the question of would Lenny having a baby of their own look like a substitute for Sheldon who's finally left the nest? I never meant to suggest they couldn't be parents, just that I don't see it as the right storyline for them. I can well imagine KC paying a slightly ditzy and harrassed new young mother, but not as Penny.

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7 minutes ago, hokie3457 said:

I know this is off topic, but I just love to see then standing together.....

May I form it on topic for you (and us)?  :shy:
/they love each other dearly/

 

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10 minutes ago, JohnPhD said:

That's very true. The only other character who could possibly be considered a mature adult is Bernadette. What you point out raises the question of would Lenny having a baby of their own look like a substitute for Sheldon who's finally left the nest? I never meant to suggest they couldn't be parents, just that I don't see it as the right storyline for them. I can well imagine KC paying a slightly ditzy and harrassed new young mother, but not as Penny.

I would like an extremely adorable baby who makes everyone follow them on the streets when they walk with her/him and be nice to them LOL Sort of a compensation for all those years of having to endure Sheldon. They don't deserve another Sheldon and I don't see the combination of their genes creating another Sheldon. As for Penny as a mother I would like something surprising. Surprise is good for comic effect. Maybe have her gush and be all over her baby and "normal" "cool" Penny whenever she is not with the baby. Or maybe she leaves the nursery a mess but somehow knows where everything is. Maybe the usually "confident" Penny gets nervous at the beginning and asks Leonard for help for in little thing. There are many possibilities for funny, not agonizing nor irritating plots.

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1 hour ago, bfm said:

They can interact with the baby character or describe their interactions with her/him without showing an actual baby frequently. They barely do that with Halley, it is mostly about her crying. 

While I support this idea I do not think it will happen. I also don't think they will have them sorting out problems because it will leave them with nothing to do with the little screen time Lenny get. Sorting out problems wouldn't take that much and won't be humorous enough for them to make it a season long arc. Besides, most of their fights are unjustified and pointless so there isn't so much to solve. It's not that there are some deep overarching issues they have never adressed. They fight because they fight. Don't get me wrong, I want resolution but there isn't much to work with when the writers have them fighting "just because". They have communication issues and insecurities but they have been through this many times. I can't see them working on their problems for a whole season.

Sadly I don't think any of Lenny so called problems will be solved in season 11 either, because the fights and drama plots with Lenny are perfect for the writers to spare to future episodes. 

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2 hours ago, bfm said:

They can interact with the baby character or describe their interactions with her/him without showing an actual baby frequently. They barely do that with Halley, it is mostly about her crying. 

While I support this idea I do not think it will happen. I also don't think they will have them sorting out problems because it will leave them with nothing to do with the little screen time Lenny get. Sorting out problems wouldn't take that much and won't be humorous enough for them to make it a season long arc. Besides, most of their fights are unjustified and pointless so there isn't so much to solve. It's not that there are some deep overarching issues they have never adressed. They fight because they fight. Don't get me wrong, I want resolution but there isn't much to work with when the writers have them fighting "just because". They have communication issues and insecurities but they have been through this many times. I can't see them working on their problems for a whole season.

So on one hand you're realising that the writers won't probably stop with the fighting stories anytime soon and yet on the other you want to throw a baby into this?? Oh dear that sounds like a recipe for disaster. I wouldn't trust the writers to come up with a good baby story as long as they're still stuck in their "Lenny are always fighting because they're too different!" mindset. Instead of the cutesy fun baby stories you want you'd get Lenny fighting over dirty diapers and Penny being a frustrated stay at home mom with Leonard morphing into a fat stereotypical sitcom dad judging by how some of the recent jokes went... Yikes.

Be careful what you wish for, dear Lennies!

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