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veejay

In Memory of The Leonard and Penny Saga.

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How about a nice long arc with Lenny trying to adopt a child instead of a pregnancy going on for a year ? We don't see many sitcoms with that plotline. There could be a child we don't see on screen every week because it's in a foster home, or an orphanage or out for the day with a relative etc. It coud be a very 'smart'  child who has difficulties fitting in and is desperate to be where s/he's understood but avoids the worst kind of bullying because he or she is fortunately 'beautiful'. How about being 'in demand' for his or her beauty but hitherto always turned down by prosepctive carers because they can't cope with smarty-pantses ? Penny could cope with that.

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I always thought Lenny would end up together. The writers liked the idea of opposites attracting and want to make it look like people stay together despite the lack of commonality and being in a less-than-completely fulfilling relationship.

It could be so easy. It's not only about what they do, but how they do it. Lenny don’t need babies, neither in person or in form of a Sheldon. Also no new roommates or other absurd distractions. In the past they have been able to prove that they are also building a lot of funny shit on their own.

So writers, shake your brain-bushes again! WTF! :icon_rolleyes:

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1 hour ago, April said:

So on one hand you're realising that the writers won't probably stop with the fighting stories anytime soon and yet on the other you want to throw a baby into this?? Oh dear that sounds like a recipe for disaster. I wouldn't trust the writers to come up with a good baby story as long as they're still stuck in their "Lenny are always fighting because they're too different!" mindset. Instead of the cutesy fun baby stories you want you'd get Lenny fighting over dirty diapers and Penny being a frustrated stay at home mom with Leonard morphing into a fat stereotypical sitcom dad judging by how some of the recent jokes went... Yikes.

Be careful what you wish for, dear Lennies!

I'll explain my view then. I see the fighting as something they use to give Lenny something to do besides watching Shamy from the kitchen island. If they had something else for them they wouldn't need the fighting. 

36 minutes ago, joyceraye said:

How about a nice long arc with Lenny trying to adopt a child instead of a pregnancy going on for a year ? We don't see many sitcoms with that plotline. There could be a child we don't see on screen every week because it's in a foster home, or an orphanage or out for the day with a relative etc. It coud be a very 'smart'  child who has difficulties fitting in and is desperate to be where s/he's understood but avoids the worst kind of bullying because he or she is fortunately 'beautiful'. How about being 'in demand' for his or her beauty but hitherto always turned down by prosepctive carers because they can't cope with smarty-pantses ? Penny could cope with that.

I think Mike & Molly went for that. And of course Modern Family.

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Just now, bfm said:

I'll explain my view then. I see the fighting as something they use to give Lenny something to do besides watching Shamy from the kitchen island. If they had something else for them they would not need the fighting. 

Good luck with that when the writers are all about their differences and the fighting. lol

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9 minutes ago, April said:

Good luck with that when the writers are all about their differences and the fighting. lol

I see that as "promotional jibber jabber" like @veejay said. Just excuses to make their lousy ideas seem well thought of. If Leonard and Penny are SO different now then they were the most different possible in previous seasons, when they had fights but their fights weren't unjustified and pointless... The current fighting is different than previous fights they had, which makes no sense if the reason is that they are just extremely different.

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8 minutes ago, bfm said:

I see that as "promotional jibber jabber" like @veejay said. Just excuses to make their lousy ideas seem well thought of. If Leonard and Penny are SO different now then they were the most different possible in previous seasons, when they had fights but their fights weren't unjustified and pointless... The current fighting is different than previous fights they had, which makes no sense if the reason is that they are just extremely different.

It doesn't matter whether or not it makes sense to you. The only thing that counts for the writing is what the writers think of it and what's been evident to me is that what the writers do with Lenny and what their fans want are two very different things at this point. I see a lot of truth in that "promotional jibber jabber" because that's exactly how the couple has been written for quite some time now and to be perfectly honest despite some positive developments here or there over the years the idea that their differences lead to pointless fights has always been there in the writing. As long as the writers don't find a way to give the couple some serious mature development (and with that I mean something that actually sticks instead of being forgotten like whatever positive episodes you like to dig out from years ago) it won't help to slap a band aid on it in form of a baby just like giving them 4A didn't help either. It's a fundamental issue with how the writers see the couple (which is very different than what you see) and that needs solving first imho.

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18 hours ago, April said:

So on one hand you're realising that the writers won't probably stop with the fighting stories anytime soon and yet on the other you want to throw a baby into this?? Oh dear that sounds like a recipe for disaster. I wouldn't trust the writers to come up with a good baby story as long as they're still stuck in their "Lenny are always fighting because they're too different!" mindset. Instead of the cutesy fun baby stories you want you'd get Lenny fighting over dirty diapers and Penny being a frustrated stay at home mom with Leonard morphing into a fat stereotypical sitcom dad judging by how some of the recent jokes went... Yikes.

Be careful what you wish for, dear Lennies!

That's not what she's saying. She's saying (as I understand it) that if Lenny were to be given a baby plot, she'd like it  to be the way she described it, but that she thinks they will not and that all Lenny will be given are more fighting plots. In any case what we Lennies wish for is for Lenny to be written competently , even if at this stage a lot of us don't believe they will ever be again written in such a fashion.

17 hours ago, April said:

Good luck with that when the writers are all about their differences and the fighting. lol

Thanks for the well wishes...

16 hours ago, April said:

It doesn't matter whether or not it makes sense to you. The only thing that counts for the writing is what the writers think of it and what's been evident to me is that what the writers do with Lenny and what their fans want are two very different things at this point. I see a lot of truth in that "promotional jibber jabber" because that's exactly how the couple has been written for quite some time now and to be perfectly honest despite some positive developments here or there over the years the idea that their differences lead to pointless fights has always been there in the writing. As long as the writers don't find a way to give the couple some serious mature development (and with that I mean something that actually sticks instead of being forgotten like whatever positive episodes you like to dig out from years ago) it won't help to slap a band aid on it in form of a baby just like giving them 4A didn't help either. It's a fundamental issue with how the writers see the couple (which is very different than what you see) and that needs solving first imho.

But of course it does. Actually I only care if it makes sense to me. I don't watch a show to see what the writers think. I only watch a show to see if what the writers think is something I like, appreciate, are moved by, etc. Other people's motivations and/or reasons are completely immaterial to me.

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Jmo but to me i kind of seems tptb are trying to change the history of lenny they never seemed to fight this much in earlier seasons plus there were good things too. Maybe tptb are trying to make shamy the lovable couple and using lenny like this for that purpose

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It has been mentioned often a baby for lenny or something new or diferent for Penny what is a job concerned but I think it also  might be pondered something more focused on Leonard. It could be about a work project of his own or a science prize, a teacher offer, something as it could explore more the character's traits. Or a relative event he would be involved in someway. As viewer I think it would be great for the character as it is always nice to see these guys to be involved in new things as they grow as human beings. Just a thought though. 

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I like these ideas but I'm afraid next season we will only get more fighting and insults from sheldon about lennys marriage

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2 hours ago, bfm said:

I'll explain my view then. I see the fighting as something they use to give Lenny something to do besides watching Shamy from the kitchen island. If they had something else for them they wouldn't need the fighting. 

I think Mike & Molly went for that. And of course Modern Family.

I don't know who Mike and Molly are. I saw an episode of Modern Family many years ago. I think it was the first one. Two men were applying to adopt a baby.

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5 hours ago, joyceraye said:

How about a nice long arc with Lenny trying to adopt a child instead of a pregnancy going on for a year ? We don't see many sitcoms with that plotline. There could be a child we don't see on screen every week because it's in a foster home, or an orphanage or out for the day with a relative etc. It coud be a very 'smart'  child who has difficulties fitting in and is desperate to be where s/he's understood but avoids the worst kind of bullying because he or she is fortunately 'beautiful'. How about being 'in demand' for his or her beauty but hitherto always turned down by prosepctive carers because they can't cope with smarty-pantses ? Penny could cope with that.

Friends had quite a long arc about adoption.

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3 hours ago, joyceraye said:

I don't know who Mike and Molly are. I saw an episode of Modern Family many years ago. I think it was the first one. Two men were applying to adopt a baby.

Mike and Molly was another Chuck Lorre production about a teacher and a Chicago Police officer.  Both were overweight.  It was on for six seasons (a respectable amount of time.  It starred Melissa McCarthy and Billy Gardell, Swoozie Kurtz was also a member of the cast.  

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4 hours ago, legacy99 said:

Jmo but to me it kind of seems tptb are trying to change the history of Lenny. They never seemed to fight this much in earlier seasons plus there were good things too. Maybe tptb are trying to make Shamy the lovable couple and using Lenny like this for that purpose.

Yes, it seems that TPTB don't even know the couple they invented anymore. It is like the writers have been replaced with moronic versions of themselves.

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3 hours ago, joyceraye said:

Who adopted whom ?

Monica and Chandler adopted twins.

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8 hours ago, spidergirl said:

It has been mentioned often a baby for lenny or something new or diferent for Penny what is a job concerned but I think it also  might be pondered something more focused on Leonard. It could be about a work project of his own or a science prize, a teacher offer, something as it could explore more the character's traits. Or a relative event he would be involved in someway. As viewer I think it would be great for the character as it is always nice to see these guys to be involved in new things as they grow as human beings. Just a thought though. 

I would certainly like something about Leonard since lately he doesn't have many plots revolving around him and is more of a support character to the others (Penny's situation is a tad worse though). I didn't mention this because I think it would be less of a joint thing for them. If he is considering taking a higher position (e.g., head of the department) Penny can help but eventually it wouldn't be much about them. Penny's job situation is a more complex, bigger issue and some of her considerations could be related to Leonard (e.g., their financial situation or working hours) so he can be more involved there. Of course starting a family or buying a house would involve them both and will be about them.

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9 hours ago, bfm said:

We differ in our view of their fights. I see the season 10 fights as different than previous fights. Do they jave many differences? Yes, but these are irrelevant to most of the S10 fights. Actually, they were more relevant to fights they had in earlier seasons (e.g., acting in S7 and that pshycic fight in S3) and these were resolved. As I said, I don't think there is something deep rooted they can fix that "will stick" because their fights don't have some common underlying cause, they fight because they fight. I see the S10 fighting as something TPTB do because they don't know what to do with Lenny so in my view giving them a new major arc, like a baby (or something else like trying to find a new job for Penny - would you say that will also turn out ugly and will be a useless band aid?), could make the pointless unjustified fights (not all possible fights, this is not a disney movie) go away. This kind of fights, IMO, is there just because of TPTB being at loss regarding Lenny and not because the story or characters justify it. So the baby idea is not a band aid to me. 

I'm mostly arguing from the writers perspective here as outlined in the CL interview recently and from what I've seen in the writing because I get the impression that people just won't understand that there's a version of Lenny sitting in the writers heads that differs a lot from the shipper's version of the couple -  and yes, it most likely also differs from what I see in the couple.

If I personally had to make sense of the fighting situation I would absolutely go after Penny's job as one of the core issues here. Fixing Penny's job is not a band aid, it's going straight for the source of her unhappiness. Penny being stuck in a job situation that frustrates her has been a big source of conflict in the past and even now with her new job her being unhappy with it has been dangled in front of us as a potential plot arc since S9. So that's 1.5-2 years of her being miserable, in part because she wants to do the grown up thing for Leonard (and he's been openly in favour of her keeping that job when the topic came up). That in and of itself is enough reason for me to explain the fighting cause that kinda stuff just wears you down. It comes back to what they did in the CC episode -  they try to do the right thing for their partner but they make each other miserable in the process until someone hits them over the head to get their shit together.

And yes, they have emphasised a lot of the characters differences as well. Every time we hear that godawful "the nerd got the hot chick hurhurrr" joke, there were several plots that revolved around how they don't have much if anything in common, how they don't make as much of an effort anymore and how somehow their honeymoon phase is over. I have a hard time thinking of a Lenny plot (not single scenes!) this season that showed them as a proper happy couple who have at least some things in common and like to spend time with each other.  There are moments, sure, not denying that. But the writers didn't exactly invest a lot of time and energy here and there is clearly a lot more interest in showing and telling how "Penny is hot and Leonard is not" or "Leonard is a nerd and Penny doesn't like that" or "Leonard finds Penny's hobbies silly" etc etc.

If I were a writer I would tackle the differences and let them work towards finding some common ground already and also fix Penny's job situation. Both could be ongoing plots through the season showing them to make an effort and try new things, showing them actually talk things out and occasionally let Penny look for a new job. And only after that baseline is established I'd go in with the baby suggestion and only then it can actually be a sweet storyline where they are not bugged down by all the other frustrating things in their lives.

Though I'm not one of the writers so who knows what they'll do. But imho it's a saver bet to look at what they did recently and what they say they plan to do cause even though it's promotional talk they're usually not outright lying.

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50 minutes ago, bfm said:

I would certainly like something about Leonard since lately he doesn't have many plots revolving around him and is more of a support character to the others (Penny's situation is a tad worse though). I didn't mention this because I think it would be less of a joint thing for them. If he is considering taking a higher position (e.g., head of the department) Penny can help but eventually it wouldn't be much about them. Penny's job situation is a more complex, bigger issue and some of her considerations could be related to Leonard (e.g., their financial situation or working hours) so he can be more involved there. Of course starting a family or buying a house would involve them both and will be about them.

My guess is that Penny's job situation will probably never be resolved or possibly something could happen in season 12 when the writers starting to panic because the show is near it's end. It's really sad that the writers are so lazy/afraid of doing something new with Lenny , that we got this freaking stalling of their progress all the time. 

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Lets be honest we as Lenny fans are probably never going to get what we want to see on the show for them, because in all honesty i think the writers just don't care enough about them anymore.It also means we're going to keep getting the stupid wore her down jokes and him supposedly begging her jokes and more comments from Sheldon taking digs at there marriage.Unfortunately if the plots don't involve or revolve around Sheldon it's like they no longer matter, as others have said there fighting in season 10 was ridiculous and instead of fixing the issue they where just swept under the rug  which is just stupid. They need to give them more no drama screen time and definitely more plots, it was a joke in S10 that to me it looked like they had less plots than even Howardette.They need to cut back on the Sheldon/Shamy focus and let others characters shine, the tptb should remember not every fan of the show enjoys seeing the antics of Sheldon/Shamy.In my opinion there are 24 episodes usually with 2 plots per episode sometimes 3 or on rare occasions 1 but it's safe to say roughly 50 different plots per season, yet how many did Lenny get in S10?.

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18 minutes ago, April said:

I'm mostly arguing from the writers perspective here as outlined in the CL interview recently and from what I've seen in the writing because I get the impression that people just won't understand that there's a version of Lenny sitting in the writers heads that differs a lot from the shipper's version of the couple -  and yes, it most likely also differs from what I see in the couple.

If I personally had to make sense of the fighting situation I would absolutely go after Penny's job as one of the core issues here. Fixing Penny's job is not a band aid, it's going straight for the source of her unhappiness. Penny being stuck in a job situation that frustrates her has been a big source of conflict in the past and even now with her new job her being unhappy with it has been dangled in front of us as a potential plot arc since S9. So that's 1.5-2 years of her being miserable, in part because she wants to do the grown up thing for Leonard (and he's been openly in favour of her keeping that job when the topic came up). That in and of itself is enough reason for me to explain the fighting cause that kinda stuff just wears you down. It comes back to what they did in the CC episode -  they try to do the right thing for their partner but they make each other miserable in the process until someone hits them over the head to get their shit together.

And yes, they have emphasised a lot of the characters differences as well. Every time we hear that godawful "the nerd got the hot chick hurhurrr" joke, there were several plots that revolved around how they don't have much if anything in common, how they don't make as much of an effort anymore and how somehow their honeymoon phase is over. I have a hard time thinking of a Lenny plot (not single scenes!) this season that showed them as a proper happy couple who have at least some things in common and like to spend time with each other.  There are moments, sure, not denying that. But the writers didn't exactly invest a lot of time and energy here and there is clearly a lot more interest in showing and telling how "Penny is hot and Leonard is not" or "Leonard is a nerd and Penny doesn't like that" or "Leonard finds Penny's hobbies silly" etc etc.

If I were a writer I would tackle the differences and let them work towards finding some common ground already and also fix Penny's job situation. Both could be ongoing plots through the season showing them to make an effort and try new things, showing them actually talk things out and occasionally let Penny look for a new job. And only after that baseline is established I'd go in with the baby suggestion and only then it can actually be a sweet storyline where they are not bugged down by all the other frustrating things in their lives.

Though I'm not one of the writers so who knows what they'll do. But imho it's a saver bet to look at what they did recently and what they say they plan to do cause even though it's promotional talk they're usually not outright lying.

Do you really think that the writers care so much about Penny's job situation so they will try and fix it in the same season as Shamy is getting married,so in my humble opinion will season 11 clearly be all about Shamy. 

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1 minute ago, Lagernisse said:

Do you really think that the writers care so much about Penny's job situation so they will try and fix it in the same season as Shamy is getting married,so in my humble opinion will season 11 clearly be all about Shamy. 

As I said, I don't know what the writers will do. They've been dangling this Penny's job situation in front of us for ages now with no resolution in sight. The closest was 10x22 but even that ended with everything staying the same. Personally I think they should finally bite the bullet after all this time but who knows how long they'll drag this out?

I don't think it has anything to do with Shamy. I know it's easy to blame everything on Shamy as if they personally hold the writers hostage or something but Howardette get great plots, too, and they have even less screen time. So that is no excuse imo.

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1 hour ago, April said:

I'm mostly arguing from the writers perspective ..../..... not outright lying.

@April, I understand your descriptions and explanations about Lenny, but after I watched it for the period of the last 3 seasons, that shows me more of a drama rather than a funny comedy. That's the main point of my constant irritation and complaint. For a long time, the writers have been able to develop a wonderful balance between seriousness and the situation-based fun, enriched by wonderful dialogues and, indeed, refreshing jokes. I also do not complain about lack of consistency when it will be done in negligible areas and the writers retain the credibility of the characters.
But as long as the share of my disapproval in TBBT is bigger than my tendency to amusement in the situations shown, the less I can and will resign myself to the current status.
And no, I will not give up and turn away from my screen, damn. :scratchhead::shy:

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2 minutes ago, veejay said:

@April, I understand your descriptions and explanations about Lenny, but after I watched it for the period of the last 3 seasons, that shows me more of a drama rather than a funny comedy. That's the main point of my constant irritation and complaint. For a long time, the writers have been able to develop a wonderful balance between seriousness and the situation-based fun, enriched by wonderful dialogues and, indeed, refreshing jokes. I also do not complain about lack of consistency when it will be done in negligible areas and the writers retain the credibility of the characters.
But as long as the share of my disapproval in TBBT is bigger than my tendency to amusement in the situations shown, the less I can and will resign myself to the current status.
And no, I will not give up and turn away from my screen, damn. :scratchhead::shy:

Yeah, I think those writing issues and the lack of humour go hand in hand. The only kind of "joke" (which really doesn't deserve being called that) they love to play up with Lenny these days it the "the nerd got the hot chick hurrhurr!" right down to centring a whole plot and plenty of scenes around it. Even if it were the funniest joke ever (which it isn't) it loses its appeal after being repeated so often and not giving the couple much variety in terms of funny situations. I know one of the writing mantras is that story comes from conflict but conflicts can be more positive as well and thus it could easily lead to more fun and light-hearted situations for Lenny. It worked for the other couples so why not Lenny??

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