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veejay

In Memory of The Leonard and Penny Saga.

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7 hours ago, 3ku11 said:

This thread is a haven for the disgruntled Lenny shippers. Why are Sheldon fans coming in here defending him anyway lol. 

I don't believe that  serena  wanted to spread her opinion here as a die hard Sheldon fan. I've recognized her view on the show rather than pretty differentiated and critical.  :scratchhead:

 

 

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2 hours ago, Zephon75 said:

You're right it is your opinion,but saying Leonard is boring is also subjective, while you find Leonard boring i see him as being the most normal and grounded of the guys which to me doesn't make him boring.While agree they could and should explore Leonard's character more, also in my opinion Sheldon's idiosyncrasies have become boring to me, doesn't mean he is to you and others just like Leonard isn't boring to me and others.

Extremely subjective.  In TBBT, Leonard over the last three seasons has become victim to what I like to call the "Richie Cunningham syndrome". Ron Howard played this role on the '70's show Happy Days.  The show was from his point of view concerning him, his family and friends as high school students in 1950's Milwaukee, Wisconsin.  Then.  All of a sudden, the world discovered the character of Arthur Fonzarelli or Fonzie; "The Fonz".  Fonzie took off like wildfire and the television show followed suit, making Fonzie a breakout character similar in many ways to what has occurred with Sheldon.  More and more episodes included Fonzie until he began to figure heavily in many, many stories.  The term "jumping the shark" originated with an episode featuring Fonzie doing a daredevil stunt where he in fact jumped over sharks on water skis.

Leonard's character has been diminished greatly.  IMO, the reason people now find him "boring" is because he has no stories being told, or if they are told, they are done so briefly.  We heard all about how sad both Howard and Sheldon were when the project was termed "finished" early----what about Leonard?  It was his original idea that morphed into the project. Why wasn't his reaction explored more.  Leonard is boring?  What about more focus on his upbringing?  We all know how reprehensible Bev treated him.  That can be fleshed out more.  His wife could seek to find out more about that relationship.  We could further explore his relationship with and his feelings about his father and how that effected his youth.  He has a brother and sister.  We've met Sheldon's sister and Penny's brother.  Why not one of Leonard's siblings?  There would be much, much to explore in either of those relationships.  Those explorations could also include Penny.  I could go on and on.  Once the character for whom the series' point of view went through is now just an afterthought (we all remember the episode where Sheldon discovered that Leonard was the center of their group....). 

The Big Bang Theory is very close to "jumping the shark".  There is a way to keep things fresh without the same old same old.....Expand the horizons.....

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26 minutes ago, veejay said:

Thanks for making it notice. So I made a little change in the headline of this thread.  :shy:

Ship Zones have special rules that run a bit contrary to the thread's idea though:

If you get one for next season I guess it probably needs some more individual rules or something.

Edited by April
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3 minutes ago, April said:

Ship Zones have special rules that run a bit contrary to the thread's idea though:

If you get one for next season I guess it probably needs some more individual rules or something.

Thanks for the hint. :shy:

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@veejay: If i get it right, this thread is supposed to be a "Shipping Lanes" for Lenny. So you could tag it as Ship Debate Zone:icon_wink:

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1 hour ago, bfm said:

Not sure about that but you're welcome :) We Lennys work best as a team don't we? 

Indeed we do!

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Every time I see the this thread's title it makes me sad(no offense Veejay).  It makes me think of a (metaphorical) funeral for Leonard and Penny but it also makes me think of Professor Proton's funeral, a sad episode in which I loved Lenny in so much. 

Proton's Funeral.jpg

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32 minutes ago, luminous said:

@veejay: If i get it right, this thread is supposed to be a "Shipping Lanes" for Lenny. So you could tag it as Ship Debate Zone:icon_wink:

Ha, since this is not my personal thread, I dispose the changes in the headline to our data master Tensor. :shy:

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28 minutes ago, Strawberry PopTart Fan said:

Every time I see the this thread's title it makes me sad(no offense Veejay).  It makes me think of a (metaphorical) funeral for Leonard and Penny but it also makes me think of Professor Proton's funeral, a sad episode in which I loved Lenny in so much.

You're absolutely right Strawberry PopTart Fan.
That was some kind of my starting point when I launched the thread after I couldn’t found the good old Lenny thread in the forum. My mood was as sad as on a funeral after all the disappointment about Lenny this season too.
But I think, we’ll all together find a appropriate label for Season 11. How about a survey for this in this summer break. :shy:

n_00369.gif.ee4fbd7db0468dd50de8264b2d9165db.gif

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Guys, a Ship Zone is for generally supportive statements for a particular ship, and does not allow negative comments about other ships, or other characters.  This is to prevent debate about other ships or characters in a particular ship's thread.  Or to prevent negative comments about the particular ship.

This thread is a perfect example of the opposite to a ship thread.    There were negative comments about Lenny.  There were critical comments about Sheldon, and there were rebuttals to the comments about Sheldon.  All those would not be allowed in a ship thread.   To turn this into a ship thread, all the negative comments about Lenny would have to be removed.   All the negative comments about any other characters would have to be removed, and all the rebuttals would have to be removed.  

A suggestion would be, if you don't want rebuttals to your posts concerning other characters, don't post negative comments about other characters.  It may not stop all of the rebuttals, but it will lessen them.  

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1 hour ago, hokie3457 said:

Extremely subjective.  In TBBT, Leonard over the last three seasons has become victim to what I like to call the "Richie Cunningham syndrome". Ron Howard played this role on the '70's show Happy Days.  The show was from his point of view concerning him, his family and friends as high school students in 1950's Milwaukee, Wisconsin.  Then.  All of a sudden, the world discovered the character of Arthur Fonzarelli or Fonzie; "The Fonz".  Fonzie took off like wildfire and the television show followed suit, making Fonzie a breakout character similar in many ways to what has occurred with Sheldon.  More and more episodes included Fonzie until he began to figure heavily in many, many stories.  The term "jumping the shark" originated with an episode featuring Fonzie doing a daredevil stunt where he in fact jumped over sharks on water skis.

Leonard's character has been diminished greatly.  IMO, the reason people now find him "boring" is because he has no stories being told, or if they are told, they are done so briefly.  We heard all about how sad both Howard and Sheldon were when the project was termed "finished" early----what about Leonard?  It was his original idea that morphed into the project. Why wasn't his reaction explored more.  Leonard is boring?  What about more focus on his upbringing?  We all know how reprehensible Bev treated him.  That can be fleshed out more.  His wife could seek to find out more about that relationship.  We could further explore his relationship with and his feelings about his father and how that effected his youth.  He has a brother and sister.  We've met Sheldon's sister and Penny's brother.  Why not one of Leonard's siblings?  There would be much, much to explore in either of those relationships.  Those explorations could also include Penny.  I could go on and on.  Once the character for whom the series' point of view went through is now just an afterthought (we all remember the episode where Sheldon discovered that Leonard was the center of their group....). 

The Big Bang Theory is very close to "jumping the shark".  There is a way to keep things fresh without the same old same old.....Expand the horizons.....

Only Raj has had less development when it comes to the guys, but I guess their argument was that Leonard was seen as the one with the less issues and the straight man in term of comedy to the quirkier other characters. Leonard was the one they turned to for real life stuff, the same can be said for Penny.

I think they should give them both some individual hobbies and individual storylines and then have the other react to them if they are struggling to write stuff for them as a couple. You can still have decent moments between them that way in terms of both comedy and romance.

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I suggest "The Dark Lenny Thread" since I think we Lennys need a place to let out our frustrations about the writing of our beloved couple. I think it is getting hard to keep positive about Lenny nowadays. However, I think we need a place for negative comments made mainly by Lennys, as opposed to Shipping Lanes or the season DT. This is not to exclude other members, not at all! I think non-shippers' views regarding our ideas should be welcome. It is just to have a place mainly for negative comments made out of love for the couple. I think this is what this thread has turned into and its success shows that it met the needs of many. 

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2 hours ago, Jonny said:

I think they should give them both some individual hobbies and individual storylines and then have the other react to them if they are struggling to write stuff for them as a couple. You can still have decent moments between them that way in terms of both comedy and romance.

This sounds really good, but the problem to me is that I really don't think the writers care that much about Leonard and Penny anymore. Season 11 will be all about Shamy's engagement and not much more. 

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23 minutes ago, Lagernisse said:

This sounds really good, but the problem to me is that I really don't think the writers care that much about Leonard and Penny anymore. Season 11 will be all about Shamy's engagement and not much more. 

o_00334.gif.de0558e877393e7f64e9a04079a5190a.gif

:shy:

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1 hour ago, bfm said:

 It is just to have a place mainly for negative comments made out of love for the couple. 

This is not a knock on you bfm, just some examples of how we have to look at things.  

And how, exactly, do we determine which comments were made out of love, and which comments were not?  One of the reasons for the supportive statement restriction was exactly this problem.  Because, for example, we were running into the problem where if one person, who was seen as a Lenny supporter made a negative comment, it was generally thought to be okay.  Where as, the same negative comment, made by someone who wasn't a Lenny supporter, was considered a problem.  And, of course, we got why was this one allowed, but not the other.   

Generally, we allow anyone to post in ship threads, even if they aren't members of that ship.  All they have to do is follow the rules of that particular thread.  We would also have to determine exactly who gets to post.  Do we allow only declared Lennys to post?  What about those who aren't shippers but have a complaint about Lenny?  Do we allow supported statements from non-Lenny and neutral people, or only from Lennys?    I think you can see some of the trade off we have to have.   

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59 minutes ago, Tensor said:

This is not a knock on you bfm, just some examples of how we have to look at things.  

And how, exactly, do we determine which comments were made out of love, and which comments were not?  One of the reasons for the supportive statement restriction was exactly this problem.  Because, for example, we were running into the problem where if one person, who was seen as a Lenny supporter made a negative comment, it was generally thought to be okay.  Where as, the same negative comment, made by someone who wasn't a Lenny supporter, was considered a problem.  And, of course, we got why was this one allowed, but not the other.   

Generally, we allow anyone to post in ship threads, even if they aren't members of that ship.  All they have to do is follow the rules of that particular thread.  We would also have to determine exactly who gets to post.  Do we allow only declared Lennys to post?  What about those who aren't shippers but have a complaint about Lenny?  Do we allow supported statements from non-Lenny and neutral people, or only from Lennys?    I think you can see some of the trade off we have to have.   

I have no problem with the ship zone rules and also wasn't trying to suggest rules for this thread. As I said I also don't want to exclude comments from non-shippers, absolutely not. My suggestion was regarding the title of the thread. I think sometimes you don't have to set strict rules but can go with titles and "norms". If you look at this thread you'll see that some norms are developing in it already. We have enough threads with specific rules I don't think we should give you mods more hard work. My suggestion was regarding the naming, no more than that.

Edited by bfm
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4 hours ago, Tensor said:

Guys, a Ship Zone is for generally supportive statements for a particular ship, and does not allow negative comments about other ships, or other characters.  This is to prevent debate about other ships or characters in a particular ship's thread.  Or to prevent negative comments about the particular ship.

This thread is a perfect example of the opposite to a ship thread.    There were negative comments about Lenny.  There were critical comments about Sheldon, and there were rebuttals to the comments about Sheldon.  All those would not be allowed in a ship thread.   To turn this into a ship thread, all the negative comments about Lenny would have to be removed.   All the negative comments about any other characters would have to be removed, and all the rebuttals would have to be removed.  

A suggestion would be, if you don't want rebuttals to your posts concerning other characters, don't post negative comments about other characters.  It may not stop all of the rebuttals, but it will lessen them.  

Tensor, I understand what you're saying completely and it is, in fact, in complete accordance with the rules. What I think is great about this particular thread is that we can talk bad about Lenny , even if it is not really talking bad about  Lenny, but Lenny's treatment by the writers and other characters (he who shall not be named: Voldem... errmmm.. I mean Sheldon). IMO it has a narrower focus than the Shipping Lanes thread, serves the specific needs of many, and personally don't have a problem if it's declared a debate zone as well.

Edited by Carlos
Clarification
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13 minutes ago, Carlos said:

Tensor, I understand what you're saying completely and it is, in fact, in complete accordance with the rules. What I think is great about this particular thread is that we can talk bad about Lenny , even if it is not really talking bad about  Lenny, but Lenny's treatment by the writers and other characters (he who shall not be named: Voldem... errmmm.. I mean Sheldon). IMO it has a narrower focus than the Shipping Lanes thread, serves the specific needs of many, and personally don't have a problem if it's declared a debate zone as well.

Well said @Carlos! This is kind of adding/clarifying what I was going for with "out of love".

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On 5/24/2017 at 10:28 AM, serena_1995 said:

Why are you blaming Sheldon for everything ? They still write Howard ,Bernadette and even Penny with the girls and/or Sheldon/Raj  (outside of Lenny) relatively well imo. I know it is very easy to blame Sheldon, but I felt Sheldon always had a prominent focus in TBBT as early as season 2. Why is this news ?

So did I. I watched for Sheldon.

 

On 5/24/2017 at 10:28 AM, serena_1995 said:

I guess my problem lies with Leonard. This is just my opinion, but Leonard as a character, has gotten pretty boring in the last 3 seasons .  He has not changed as much from the begining except now he has got the hot girl and has more "confidence" to cheat (?). Imo, Lenny suffers because they don't wanna explore Leonard and consequently  Lenny beyond the nerd / hot girl dynamic.  

I totally agree.

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On 5/25/2017 at 8:52 AM, hokie3457 said:

Extremely subjective.  In TBBT, Leonard over the last three seasons has become victim to what I like to call the "Richie Cunningham syndrome". Ron Howard played this role on the '70's show Happy Days.  The show was from his point of view concerning him, his family and friends as high school students in 1950's Milwaukee, Wisconsin.  Then.  All of a sudden, the world discovered the character of Arthur Fonzarelli or Fonzie; "The Fonz".  Fonzie took off like wildfire and the television show followed suit, making Fonzie a breakout character similar in many ways to what has occurred with Sheldon.  More and more episodes included Fonzie until he began to figure heavily in many, many stories.  The term "jumping the shark" originated with an episode featuring Fonzie doing a daredevil stunt where he in fact jumped over sharks on water skis.

Leonard's character has been diminished greatly.  IMO, the reason people now find him "boring" is because he has no stories being told, or if they are told, they are done so briefly.  We heard all about how sad both Howard and Sheldon were when the project was termed "finished" early----what about Leonard?  It was his original idea that morphed into the project. Why wasn't his reaction explored more.  Leonard is boring?  What about more focus on his upbringing?  We all know how reprehensible Bev treated him.  That can be fleshed out more.  His wife could seek to find out more about that relationship.  We could further explore his relationship with and his feelings about his father and how that effected his youth.  He has a brother and sister.  We've met Sheldon's sister and Penny's brother.  Why not one of Leonard's siblings?  There would be much, much to explore in either of those relationships.  Those explorations could also include Penny.  I could go on and on.  Once the character for whom the series' point of view went through is now just an afterthought (we all remember the episode where Sheldon discovered that Leonard was the center of their group....). 

The Big Bang Theory is very close to "jumping the shark".  There is a way to keep things fresh without the same old same old.....Expand the horizons.....

I disagree about TBBT being solely from Leonard's perspective at the beginning of the show. The show has always been from the perspective of BOTH Leonard and Sheldon.

Look at the show description. It clearly states The Big Bang Theory is centered on physicists Sheldon Cooper and Leonard Hofstadter, whose geeky and introverted lives are changed when Penny, an attractive waitress and aspiring actress, moves into the apartment across from theirs. If it was always from Leonard's POV wouldn't the descriptor be different? I would think it might read something more along the lines of:

The Big Bang Theory is centered on physicist Leonard Hofstadter, whose geeky and introverted life is changed when he moves in with a new roomate and when Penny, an attractive waitress and aspiring actress, moves into the apartment across from his.

They are vastly different descriptors...

 

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4 hours ago, Sah said:

I disagree about TBBT being solely from Leonard's perspective at the beginning of the show. The show has always been from the perspective of BOTH Leonard and Sheldon.

No, it wasn't.  

4 hours ago, Sah said:

Look at the show description. It clearly states The Big Bang Theory is centered on physicists Sheldon Cooper and Leonard Hofstadter, whose geeky and introverted lives are changed when Penny, an attractive waitress and aspiring actress, moves into the apartment across from theirs.

 

Centered on two physicists.  Sure, they live together.  But that doesn't mean the story isn't told from Leonard's point of view.  

4 hours ago, Sah said:

If it was always from Leonard's POV wouldn't the descriptor be different?

 

Why would it?  As I said, it can be centered on both of them (after all, quite a bit of the action takes place in their apartment, which would be centered on both of them.  However, the viewpoint with Leonard was interested in Penny, not Sheldon is from Leonard's point of view (explaining it to Sheldon).  Leonard being interested in Sheldon, not Penny, it also told from Leonard's point of view (Leonard explaining it to Penny).   Raj and Howard started as friends with Leonard and state in the first season that it's because of Leonard that they hang out with Sheldon, that's from Leonard's viewpoint.  

It was also described, by Bill Prady as Penny pulling Leonard out of the nerd world, and Sheldon pulling him back into the nerd world.  That can't be told from Penny's point of view or from Sheldon's point of view.  Only from Leonard's point of view.

4 hours ago, Sah said:

The Big Bang Theory is centered on physicist Leonard Hofstadter, whose geeky and introverted life is changed when he moves in with a new roomate and when Penny, an attractive waitress and aspiring actress, moves into the apartment across from his.

They are vastly different descriptors...

Can you explain why saying the show is centered on two people, HAS to mean the viewpoint of the show has to be from both of them?  Early in the run of the show, it's Sheldon reacting to mostly Leonard.  That's not Sheldon's viewpoint, that's simply Sheldon's reaction.   

 

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I don't think there was ever any doubt that Leonard was the comparatively normal one among the guys, so we couldn't help seeing the TBBT world from L's POV. But we've also seen Sheldon in particular from Penny's POV. And all relationships other than her own are seen more or less from Penny's POV, it seems to me. Because she's not only normal but she has an inner life we can share. (She's also an idiot in some respects but that's not inconsistent).

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11 minutes ago, JohnPhD said:

I don't think there was ever any doubt that Leonard was the comparatively normal one among the guys, so we couldn't help seeing the TBBT world from L's POV. But we've also seen Sheldon in particular from Penny's POV. And all relationships other than her own are seen more or less from Penny's POV, it seems to me. Because she's not only normal but she has an inner life we can share. (She's also an idiot in some respects but that's not inconsistent).

o_00642.gif.b52268bd6652e11099dbd1e889437530.gif

:icon_cheesygrin:

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