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Chit Chat: Season 11


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32 minutes ago, Tonstar17 said:

Well, I know it not over, until the next scandal is revealed. Locked in adult prisons with their mother's. I know this will not be last of it and it's not going to end good for the families, just got to wait for the good folks to expose the lies.

Again homeless people have rights and help is available to them from charities and counties , most prefer to stay homeless. I don't get your comparation. Total different situations.

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I expressed myself poorly perhaps. I don’t want to conflate the two issues. Homelessness is a different thing from seeking asylum, with different causes.

Net border crossings trend down is my point. Was much higher in prior years if you look back. This issue is real, but inflated. 

Mixing the two issues is misleading and distracting. And a political tactic.

I’m glad Trump changed something. But he hasn’t changed his mind. He is an elderly racist who likes punching down and has all the power in the world at his command. Never forget  “Good people on both sides!” Etc.

So he’ll do something cruel again. Probably soon. It’s what he does.

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I expressed myself poorly perhaps. I don’t want to conflate the two issues. Homelessness is a different thing from seeking asylum, with different causes.
Net border crossings trend down is my point. Was much higher in prior years if you look back. This issue is real, but inflated. 
Mixing the two issues is misleading and distracting. And a political tactic.
I’m glad Trump changed something. But he hasn’t changed his mind. He is an elderly racist who likes punching down and has all the power in the world at his command. Never forget  “Good people on both sides!” Etc.
So he’ll do something cruel again. Probably soon. It’s what he does.
The bit about homelessness was not aim at you, it was for Chrismo.stupid qouting system. Totally agree on you take tho.

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1 hour ago, Chrismo said:

So where are they going to be housed? Better than the homeless 

I don't think it's any more expensive to house them together until they sort them out as it is to house them separately. We'll see.

1 hour ago, Chrismo said:

To me and I know this isn’t popular to say but unite the families and send them back over the border

You're assuming they are all Mexican and they are not. Quite a lot are Guatemalan from what I've been hearing.

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You're assuming they are all Mexican and they are not. Quite a lot are Guatemalan from what I've been hearing.
And from the most poorest countries in South and Central America, Bolivia, Paraguay and Haiti to name a few.

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1 hour ago, Die Zimtzicke said:

I don't think it's any more expensive to house them together until they sort them out as it is to house them separately. We'll see.

You're assuming they are all Mexican and they are not. Quite a lot are Guatemalan from what I've been hearing.

Well did you know that Mexico has a wall between their border and Guatemala?

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Well did you know that Mexico has a wall between their border and Guatemala?
Interesting, didn't know that. So does that not show that a wall wouldn't work if migrants are still getting through to USA via Mexico?

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19 minutes ago, Tonstar17 said:

Interesting, didn't know that. So does that not show that a wall wouldn't work if migrants are still getting through to USA via Mexico?

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Actually they enter by river that borders the two countries. It actually goes under the checkpoint. Most who get in normally don’t make it to the US Mexican border.

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19 hours ago, son-goku5 said:

I think that's one of the problems of the "we're the best" attitude in America. Like, "My way or nothing, so why learn another language, let the other nations lern English". That's especially telling in the hotel business. If an American goes into a hotel in Germany, the person at the reception will always be able to speak to the American in English. If a German goes into an American hotel and starts speaking German, the only thing he'll get in 95% of the cases is a face saying "huh?"

I speak two languages myself. German, which is my mother tongue and, of course, English because I learned it in school and kept using it after (had 5 years of Russian in school as well, never used it again and can't speak a sentence ^^) Most of my generation is bilingual

I must say that English has become the "de facto" world language for business. I'm originally from Argentina so I speak Spanish as well. I took French in school (3 years) and was pretty good at it, but forgot most of it because I had no one to practice it with. I tried to learn German with a second generation German friend but found it pretty difficult, and after a handful of classes she got tired of teaching me, and that was it.

Whenever I watch a movie ( I watch a lot of international movies) I choose the soundtrack inn the original language and read the subtitles because I like how the actors sound in their original tongue. As far as the world goes it has become smaller and smaller due to globalization, so it really is beyond me why so many people are interested in dividing and conquering instead of uniting as one.

On ‎6‎/‎19‎/‎2018 at 4:08 PM, Chrismo said:

Like it or not the parents broke the law. Maybe they can be sent to England, Germany or Australia.

Sorry, I said I wasn't going to answer to you anymore and it's better I don't. My bad,

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1 hour ago, Tonstar17 said:

And from the most poorest countries in South and Central America, Bolivia, Paraguay and Haiti to name a few.

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The rule for refugees in Europe is they have to claim asylum in the country in which they first land. If they travel through any country to get to another one they get sent back to the first one. If they are refused asylum they get sent home. At least that's how it's supposed to work. (What's supposed to happen and what does happen aren't always the same thing. )

If a family travels through Mexico from another country to get to the USA, is Mexico allowing it  or are Mexicans getting conned ? Why don't refugees claim asylum in Mexico if they're fleeing persecution ? Has the USA got an agreement with Mexico about this ? 

If the travellers are not refugees in need of asylum, what the bloody hell are they doing, dragging themselves and their kids over and into other people's countries without permission ? It's a damned cheek. Every country has its rules as to who can and can't enter and stay in it. And when those rules are broken, the government of the  invaded country chucks 'em out if it wants to, or otherwise deals with the problem as it sees fit. It's the way the world works. In my experience, nobody dislikes illegal immigrants more than the people who entered through the proper channels by filling in application  forms, getting references, arranging work and living accommodation in advance, waiting their time and paying the processing fees and the plane or train fares. 

 

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36 minutes ago, joyceraye said:

The rule for refugees in Europe is they have to claim asylum in the country in which they first land. If they travel through any country to get to another one they get sent back to the first one. If they are refused asylum they get sent home. At least that's how it's supposed to work. (What's supposed to happen and what does happen aren't always the same thing. )

If a family travels through Mexico from another country to get to the USA, is Mexico allowing it  or are Mexicans getting conned ? Why don't refugees claim asylum in Mexico if they're fleeing persecution ? Has the USA got an agreement with Mexico about this ? 

Mexico is not considered a safe place for refugees to settle.

Quote

In a July 2017 report Human Rights First found that Mexico was not a safe third country for refugees. The organization’s findings included that refugees and migrants face acute risks of kidnapping, disappearance, sexual assault, trafficking, and other grave harms in Mexico; that Mexican migration officers deport Central Americans who have expressed fear of return despite the country’s nonrefoulement and human rights obligations; and that deficiencies, barriers, and flaws in the Mexican asylum system leave many refugees unprotected. 

Since July 2017, the dangers facing refugees and migrants in Mexico have escalated. Recent reports confirm that Mexican authorities continue to improperly return asylum seekers to their countries of persecution and that the deficiencies in the Mexican asylum system have grown.

from https://www.humanrightsfirst.org/resource/mexico-still-not-safe-refugees-and-migrants 

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¡Hola. ¿Qué pasa?

I don’t know the answer to the immigration problems, but I don’t think a wall and child abuse is the way to go. Maybe it had to be tried /s

Building a wall out of the tears of babies is what Trump attempted,  metaphorically. Such a great man. Heart as big as his hands. 

I hope every night or every week the media give a report on the number of children re-united with their parents or still stockpiled, so we know how this heinous act plays out for the innocent.

Edited by Nogravitasatall
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4 hours ago, Chrismo said:

Well did you know that Mexico has a wall between their border and Guatemala?

Did you know that this is an internext hoax? There's no wall between Mexico and Guatemala. It's one of the most open borders in the world

https://www.quora.com/Does-Mexico-have-a-wall-on-its-southern-border

Edited by son-goku5
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1 hour ago, joyceraye said:

In my experience, nobody dislikes illegal immigrants more than the people who entered through the proper channels

Are you sure? "Nobody"? I don't see legal immigrants burn down refugee shelters, attacking illegal immigrants for no reason and, oh right, write bullshit policies that separates families at the borders and put babies in cages. Those people are racists assholes coming in all sorts of flavours and they sure as hell "dislike illegal immigrants more" because they are such a convenient target for their hate.

6 hours ago, Nogravitasatall said:

Homelessness is a different thing from seeking asylum, with different causes.

Homelessness is reliably being brought up as a whataboutism whenever it it's about immigrants and refugees. Suddenly all the people who usually don't give two fucks about homeless people are suuuuuuper worried about the poor homeless. It's particularly telling when it comes from a racist organisation of some sorts. I don't see the populist assholes here in Germany found charities to support the homeless so fuck these guys and their racist bullshit.

 

(Pardon my French but, you know, the topic...)

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@April   Thank you very much!!!

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7 hours ago, Chrismo said:

I didn’t realize you were an expert on the US. Some prefer to stay homeless but certainly not all. Certainly there isn’t help for all of them. To me and I know this isn’t popular to say but unite the families and send them back over the border

Most people are interested in their own human rights as soon as they realize that they are in danger. The human rights of others that are at issue are somehow not so important. So even pure chance of being born on the right half of the globe (of which, of course, one is "proud") can massively narrow the perspective.

Edited by veejay
the quote system confuses me
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2 hours ago, April said:

Are you sure? "Nobody"? I don't see legal immigrants burn down refugee shelters, attacking illegal immigrants for no reason and, oh right, write bullshit policies that separates families at the borders and put babies in cages. Those people are racists assholes coming in all sorts of flavours and they sure as hell "dislike illegal immigrants more" because they are such a convenient target for their hate.

Homelessness is reliably being brought up as a whataboutism whenever it it's about immigrants and refugees. Suddenly all the people who usually don't give two fucks about homeless people are suuuuuuper worried about the poor homeless. It's particularly telling when it comes from a racist organisation of some sorts. I don't see the populist assholes here in Germany found charities to support the homeless so fuck these guys and their racist bullshit.

 

(Pardon my French but, you know, the topic...)

I did not know that. That’s some disordered thinking right there.  It’s like the one about there being no relationship between a) having guns in the house to keep you safe and b) being shot by your toddler with your own gun. Only one is  connected by facts and causation and one is not.  

Maybe there is some organisation coordinating these responses. I think Australia may need to apologise for Rupert.

Edited by Nogravitasatall
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For more than a year I have heard escalating madness.  Every few weeks I thought the last bit of crazy would result in Trump resigning or being thrown out. Now we hear there is no plan for reuniting kids with their families. No real plans. This will dog Trump forever.

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2 hours ago, April said:

Are you sure? "Nobody"? I don't see legal immigrants burn down refugee shelters, attacking illegal immigrants for no reason and, oh right, write bullshit policies that separates families at the borders and put babies in cages. Those people are racists assholes coming in all sorts of flavours and they sure as hell "dislike illegal immigrants more" because they are such a convenient target for their hate.

 

I am sure of my own experience, yes, which is what  I referred to. I have never seen any of the stuff you mention. I don't know anybody who has done that sort of thing. It hasn't happened here,at least not  yet. I don't go abroad much and have never been to the USA. I haven't even met more than half a dozen Americans in my life. The ones I have are perfectly decent people who don't go around hating.  I can only ask questions about American policies since I have no say in them, nor should I. Every country has racist thugs. I don't know any and hope never to do so, but from what I've heard they hate everybody they regard as different from themselves and don't give a monkey's whether their targets are British-born, refugees, overseas students, or whether they're legally here or not.

There's a difference between real refugees and illegal immigrants. My direct experience of refugees is of  a group who made attempts on my life for their own gain but I hope that's the extreme. They were fleeing from justice rather than to justice so they were sent home and I got a good night's sleep for the first time in months.  They were  phoney refugees in the first place.That sort of thing is the reason camps were set up - to filter out the goodies from the baddies. There was a  fire in a camp but it was started by people living in it.

Edited by joyceraye
typo

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28 minutes ago, joyceraye said:

There's a difference between real refugees and illegal immigrants.

There needs to be a hearing to made a determination who has a legitimate claim and who does not. It takes time and is not easy to work out. People running from rogue governments don't necessarily have documents with them.

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59 minutes ago, joyceraye said:

I am sure of my own experience, yes, which is what  I referred to.

Well, thanks for specifying what "In my experience" meant to you cause I would have assumed you'd have caught at least the news that there are some really awful people out there who hate refugees and immigrants (and anyone they think might look like one cause no, they don't make a distinction, to them they are all violent greedy thugs that need to get out of the country one way or another) to the point of arson and murder. And while things may not have gotten that bad in the UK at least during the whole Brexit campaign there've been some people on the news spouting some very hateful garbage so I would have thought you'd be aware of that at least. Guess not.

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58 minutes ago, djsurrey said:

There needs to be a hearing to made a determination who has a legitimate claim and who does not. It takes time and is not easy to work out. People running from rogue governments don't necessarily have documents with them.

Yes. It's an old problem (not just for the US), but laws and contracts must be observed. This is particularly true of the country that enshrined human rights in the UN Charter, the USA! The UN refugee convention co-created by the USA as a founding member is also valid for the US government, since it was ratified by Congress. At every (economic) border, on the one hand poverty and on the other incredible wealth, people gather who want a better life. Only the improvement of prosperity in the countries of origin of the lucky seekers will help. In addition, there are real asylum seekers whose lives, physical integrity and dignity are threatened in their home countries. Nobody objects if the USA make sure with a rational foreign policy that people are getting a better life in there home country. If they are doing well, they don't try to cross the borders illegally. Nobody objects if the richest country in the world by a huge margin, the USA, abides by local and international law and welcomes the arrivals to reception centers in a humane manner (of course together with their children), and then decides whether there is a reason for asylum, can be immigrated or the family can be deported back to their home country. The USA pays these costs out of petty cash!
Trump seems to portray everything and everything done before him by other US administrations as false and stupid, including the own constitution, to which he took an oath, also all the international agreements ratified by the US.
US justice has a lot of work to do to slow down Trump. But I am still convinced that they will do so.

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11 hours ago, Chrismo said:

Well did you know that Mexico has a wall between their border and Guatemala?

I don't think there is. I don't think that's true, but if there is, it sure as hell is not working.

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6 hours ago, April said:

Well, thanks for specifying what "In my experience" meant to you cause I would have assumed you'd have caught at least the news that there are some really awful people out there who hate refugees and immigrants (and anyone they think might look like one cause no, they don't make a distinction, to them they are all violent greedy thugs that need to get out of the country one way or another) to the point of arson and murder. And while things may not have gotten that bad in the UK at least during the whole Brexit campaign there've been some people on the news spouting some very hateful garbage so I would have thought you'd be aware of that at least. Guess not.

Absolutely ! I have certainly learned over the years to be discriminating with what's on the news.

I didn't specify what my experience of legal immigrants, those who'd been granted asylum, and the EU was. I don't think anybody would be interested to read it if I wrote about it all, but it's nice of you to thank me. 

 

7 hours ago, djsurrey said:

There needs to be a hearing to made a determination who has a legitimate claim and who does not. It takes time and is not easy to work out. People running from rogue governments don't necessarily have documents with them.

Spot on.

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14 hours ago, Chrismo said:

Well did you know that Mexico has a wall between their border and Guatemala?

 

2 hours ago, Die Zimtzicke said:

I don't think there is. I don't think that's true, but if there is, it sure as hell is not working.

 

Die Zimtzicke you are correct.  There is no wall along the Guatemala-Mexico border.  There are pictures that have circulated on the internet purporting to show such a wall.  But in reality, they are pictures of the Israeli-Gaza Border, or the Israeli border on the West Bank or, ironically, the US-Mexican border.  Now, near population centers, there are chain-link fences to basically control traffic, but this is no where near a wall.  

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8 hours ago, veejay said:

Yes. It's an old problem (not just for the US), but laws and contracts must be observed. This is particularly true of the country that enshrined human rights in the UN Charter, the USA! The UN refugee convention co-created by the USA as a founding member is also valid for the US government, since it was ratified by Congress. At every (economic) border, on the one hand poverty and on the other incredible wealth, people gather who want a better life. Only the improvement of prosperity in the countries of origin of the lucky seekers will help. In addition, there are real asylum seekers whose lives, physical integrity and dignity are threatened in their home countries. Nobody objects if the USA make sure with a rational foreign policy that people are getting a better life in there home country. If they are doing well, they don't try to cross the borders illegally. Nobody objects if the richest country in the world by a huge margin, the USA, abides by local and international law and welcomes the arrivals to reception centers in a humane manner (of course together with their children), and then decides whether there is a reason for asylum, can be immigrated or the family can be deported back to their home country. The USA pays these costs out of petty cash!
Trump seems to portray everything and everything done before him by other US administrations as false and stupid, including the own constitution, to which he took an oath, also all the international agreements ratified by the US.
US justice has a lot of work to do to slow down Trump. But I am still convinced that they will do so.

Such irony in the contrast between the slogan to "make America great again" and the policies that erode many of the things that actually make America great.

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