[Spoilers] The "Dark" Lenny Thread: Season 11

[veejay]

This thread is for Season 11 related discussion with all free minded Lenny supporters. It reflects the current status of Lenny in the series. Please feel free to write your different opinions about Lenny in an appropriate manner in this thread. Spoilers are allowed.

Quote

Please remember, this is not a ship thread.  While it is primarily for Leonard and Penny, any comments about other characters can get replies or referenced.  If anyone doesn't want to talk about other characters, the best bet is not to refer to other characters here.  Use the Shipping Lanes thread.   

Thank you @Tensor for the advanced clarification. (taken from Season 10 Thread "In Memory of The Leonard and Penny Saga“)

 

 

Edited June 28, 2017 by veejay

[bfm]

Thanks for opening this thread @veejay.

Brace yourselves, season 11 is coming.

Edited June 28, 2017 by bfm

[joyceraye]

Early in season 9, any time I came across an earlier episode in which Leonard saw Penny involved with another man, I used to feel a deep sadness. I thought 'This is his future wife,poor man,' and felt very sorry for him. I couldn't believe I took it that seriously, but I suppose writers do aim to have an effect on their audiences. Since then, that feeling has gradually disappeared as what we've seen of their marriage has been composed of more bickering and sniping than anything else. When they're nice to each other or doing something together I feel like waving a flag.  How they were speaking to each other in 10.24 was appalling ! I accept they were never going to behave like traditional newlyweds, having had more honeymoons than hot dinners in the years before they were married, but being so horrible to each other so often after such a short time shocks me. They're more like a divorced couple being unwillingly forced to attend the same event for their adult children than young people who're supposed to be in love. Now when I see an old episode in which one of them is distressed because the other is in a relationship with someone else, if I think anything at all, it's ' Oh if only you knew.'

We don't get Lenny's level of unpleasantness towards each other from Howard and Bernadette, which is surprising considering what Howard used to be like. They've got a baby, which is more than enough to strain many marriages, plus a depressed third wheel in the house and a godparent who's become more worry than help, all while they're coping with full-time jobs, and still they find time for a cuddle. I wonder if the contrast is deliberate ? 

 

[Tensor]

35 minutes ago, joyceraye said:

Early in season 9, any time I came across an earlier episode in which Leonard saw Penny involved with another man, I used to feel a deep sadness. I thought 'This is his future wife,poor man,' and felt very sorry for him. I couldn't believe I took it that seriously, but I suppose writers do aim to have an effect on their audiences. Since then, that feeling has gradually disappeared as what we've seen of their marriage has been composed of more bickering and sniping than anything else. When they're nice to each other or doing something together I feel like waving a flag.  How they were speaking to each other in 10.24 was appalling ! I accept they were never going to behave like traditional newlyweds, having had more honeymoons than hot dinners in the years before they were married, but being so horrible to each other so often after such a short time shocks me. They're more like a divorced couple being unwillingly forced to attend the same event for their adult children than young people who're supposed to be in love. Now when I see an old episode in which one of them is distressed because the other is in a relationship with someone else, if I think anything at all, it's ' Oh if only you knew.'

We don't get Lenny's level of unpleasantness towards each other from Howard and Bernadette, which is surprising considering what Howard used to be like. They've got a baby, which is more than enough to strain many marriages, plus a depressed third wheel in the house and a godparent who's become more worry than help, all while they're coping with full-time jobs, and still they find time for a cuddle. I wonder if the contrast is deliberate ? 

 

While they have their moments of closeness and cuddles, they also have, as you rightly point out,  far too many snippy, snarky, and just plain unpleasant, comments toward each other.  Then you add the "wore me down" and "He got the hot girl" or "they don't belong together"  comments, and it makes watching them much more of a struggle than it was, for me, pre season eight.  I've been going through seasons 5 and 6 over the last week (for the screen time thing) and there is a huge difference in their interactions then, and now.  

For instance, where are is the cute conversations they had during their dinners alone in seasons six and seven?  Where is the physical closeness they had back then?  Those things are not there as much as they were in those earlier seasons.   Anyone who thinks their current interactions are fine, should go back and observe them in seasons five and six and seven.        

[Tonstar17]

Early in season 9, any time I came across an earlier episode in which Leonard saw Penny involved with another man, I used to feel a deep sadness. I thought 'This is his future wife,poor man,' and felt very sorry for him. I couldn't believe I took it that seriously, but I suppose writers do aim to have an effect on their audiences. Since then, that feeling has gradually disappeared as what we've seen of their marriage has been composed of more bickering and sniping than anything else. When they're nice to each other or doing something together I feel like waving a flag.  How they were speaking to each other in 10.24 was appalling ! I accept they were never going to behave like traditional newlyweds, having had more honeymoons than hot dinners in the years before they were married, but being so horrible to each other so often after such a short time shocks me. They're more like a divorced couple being unwillingly forced to attend the same event for their adult children than young people who're supposed to be in love. Now when I see an old episode in which one of them is distressed because the other is in a relationship with someone else, if I think anything at all, it's ' Oh if only you knew.'
We don't get Lenny's level of unpleasantness towards each other from Howard and Bernadette, which is surprising considering what Howard used to be like. They've got a baby, which is more than enough to strain many marriages, plus a depressed third wheel in the house and a godparent who's become more worry than help, all while they're coping with full-time jobs, and still they find time for a cuddle. I wonder if the contrast is deliberate ? 
 

Trust me. It is deliberate by tptb, you can't have 3 happy couples on the show, dont ask me why, so I guess lenny had to pay the ultimate prize to make another couple look good. As Tensor pointed out where is the real lenny from the earlier seasons that showed so much love & care for each other that we recognise. It's like the characters have been rewritten.You can plainly see in s10 that tptb do not, can't be bothered to put any effort into writing lenny or have any plans for them. Even in recent interviews when asked about lenny, Maloro said nothing new and just like the writing stalled on the topic, because they have no plans for lenny except recycled old jokes, snarkiness and fighting. That's what lenny is all about now. Maloro was probably in shocked and did not expect that they asked after lenny. Funny how he had so much more to say on the future of shamy & howardette. Deliberate to shit on lenny. 1000%

Sent from my SM-G955F using Tapatalk

[hokie3457]

1 hour ago, Tensor said:

While they have their moments of closeness and cuddles, they also have, as you rightly point out,  far too many snippy, snarky, and just plain unpleasant, comments toward each other.  Then you add the "wore me down" and "He got the hot girl" or "they don't belong together"  comments, and it makes watching them much more of a struggle than it was, for me, pre season eight.  I've been going through seasons 5 and 6 over the last week (for the screen time thing) and there is a huge difference in their interactions then, and now.  

For instance, where are is the cute conversations they had during their dinners alone in seasons six and seven?  Where is the physical closeness they had back then?  Those things are not there as much as they were in those earlier seasons.   Anyone who thinks their current interactions are fine, should go back and observe them in seasons five and six and seven.        

I would back-track on season 7. Leonard made a cameo appearance in Episode 7.1. We were subjected to a Shenny-fest for that premier. We had him not being supportive of her acting career (save for the purchase of the car--albeit one of the best Lenny moments, you know when the great and mighty Sheldon after bonding with her couldn't be bothered with her serious problem). We were thrown a bone with the final proposal in episode 7.23 only to have it stomped on in 7.24, you know because Raj having sex is so much more of a big deal. Nope. For me, Lenny's golden age ended with Epidode 6.23.

[Tensor]

 

13 minutes ago, hokie3457 said:

I would back-track on season 7. Leonard made a cameo appearance in Episode 7.1. We were subjected to a Shenny-fest for that premier. We had him not being supportive of her acting career (save for the purchase of the car--albeit one of the best Lenny moments, you know when the great and mighty Sheldon after bonding with her couldn't be bothered with her serious problem). We were thrown a bone with the final proposal in episode 7.23 only to have it stomped on in 7.24, you know because Raj having sex is so much more of a big deal. Nope. For me, Lenny's golden age ended with Epidode 6.23.

While it wasn't as good as the seasons before it, it was no where near as bad as the seasons after it.  We still had them actually discussing things, we had them together alone, doing things together (reading the script of Serial Ape-ist).  The box of memories, dinner after the engagement, their talk at Proton's funeral, and several other moments.  Like I said, not as good as the previous, but there is enough good stuff to save it, IMO.  

[hokie3457]

13 minutes ago, Tensor said:

 

While it wasn't as good as the seasons before it, it was no where near as bad as the seasons after it.  We still had them actually discussing things, we had them together alone, doing things together (reading the script of Serial Ape-ist).  The box of memories, dinner after the engagement, their talk at Proton's funeral, and several other moments.  Like I said, not as good as the previous, but there is enough good stuff to save it, IMO.  

Absolutely right on those moments, however it was were things began to slip away.

[veejay]

21 minutes ago, Tensor said:

While it wasn't as good as the seasons before it, it was no where near as bad as the seasons after it.  We still had them actually discussing things, we had them together alone, doing things together (reading the script of Serial Ape-ist).  The box of memories, dinner after the engagement, their talk at Proton's funeral, and several other moments.  Like I said, not as good as the previous, but there is enough good stuff to save it, IMO.  

Yes, my disappointment started at the beginning of season 8. Until then the stories for Lenny were mostly accomplished and above all at least credible.

[Swedish Chef]

11 minutes ago, veejay said:

Yes, my disappointment started at the beginning of season 8. Until then the stories for Lenny were mostly accomplished and above all at least credible.

I can only agree with this, before season 8 I think Lenny to be pretty well written but season 8,9 and 10 has largely been disappointing. 

It is really sad that the writers don't want to go any further than "we wore me down " jokes and he got "the hot girl" with Lenny. 

1 hour ago, Tonstar17 said:

Trust me. It is deliberate by tptb, you can't have 3 happy couples on the show, dont ask me why, so I guess lenny had to pay the ultimate prize to make another couple look good. As Tensor pointed out where is the real lenny from the earlier seasons that showed so much love & care for each other that we recognise. It's like the characters have been rewritten.You can plainly see in s10 that tptb do not, can't be bothered to put any effort into writing lenny or have any plans for them. Even in recent interviews when asked about lenny, Maloro said nothing new and just like the writing stalled on the topic, because they have no plans for lenny except recycled old jokes, snarkiness and fighting. That's what lenny is all about now. Maloro was probably in shocked and did not expect that they asked after lenny. Funny how he had so much more to say on the future of shamy & howardette. Deliberate to shit on lenny. 1000%

Sent from my SM-G955F using Tapatalk
 

With both Johnny and Kaley going to SDCC  there could be some interesting questions to TPTB from the audience. 

[No Regrets]

20 minutes ago, Lagernisse said:

With both Johnny and Kaley going to SDCC  there could be some interesting questions to TPTB from the audience. 

Oh they are? I wouldn't even know what anyone would ask about Leonard and Penny at this point, except, "WTF is even going on?"

[veejay]

18 minutes ago, No Regrets said:

Oh they are? I wouldn't even know what anyone would ask about Leonard and Penny at this point, except, "WTF is even going on?"

Wouldn't this be the most obvious question?

I guess I know the answer...

[bfm]

2 hours ago, hokie3457 said:

I would back-track on season 7. Leonard made a cameo appearance in Episode 7.1. We were subjected to a Shenny-fest for that premier. We had him not being supportive of her acting career (save for the purchase of the car--albeit one of the best Lenny moments, you know when the great and mighty Sheldon after bonding with her couldn't be bothered with her serious problem). We were thrown a bone with the final proposal in episode 7.23 only to have it stomped on in 7.24, you know because Raj having sex is so much more of a big deal. Nope. For me, Lenny's golden age ended with Epidode 6.23.

I liked season 7. Sure the first episode had a lot of Sheldon-Penny but I don't see that pairing as undermining Lenny, they are just friends, like Sheldon-Leonard. She also really missed Leonard and I cannot watch their reunion in the next episode enough, it was adorable. There was the problem of Leonard having a hard time supporting her and being too blatant about it. However, we got to see him handling that and finding a way to show support even if her decisions do not follow his reasoning. That was a tense situation that truly originated from difference in perceptions and it was explored and resolved, as opposed to the nonsense we get now.

[3ku11]

15 hours ago, Tensor said:

While they have their moments of closeness and cuddles, they also have, as you rightly point out,  far too many snippy, snarky, and just plain unpleasant, comments toward each other.  Then you add the "wore me down" and "He got the hot girl" or "they don't belong together"  comments, and it makes watching them much more of a struggle than it was, for me, pre season eight.  I've been going through seasons 5 and 6 over the last week (for the screen time thing) and there is a huge difference in their interactions then, and now.  

For instance, where are is the cute conversations they had during their dinners alone in seasons six and seven?  Where is the physical closeness they had back then?  Those things are not there as much as they were in those earlier seasons.   Anyone who thinks their current interactions are fine, should go back and observe them in seasons five and six and seven.        

They are married now. Generally affection fades. And it becomes hard work.

[Zephon75]

51 minutes ago, 3ku11 said:

They are married now. Generally affection fades. And it becomes hard work.

If that was the case why didn't the same thing happen with Howard and Bernadette? I've never seen the level of arguments between Howardette that Lenny have been shown doing. Also this might be me but but the couples have  a sort of hierarchy it used to be Lenny at the top Shamy in the middle and Howardette last. With being bottom Howardette got the least attention from the writers getting the odd plot here or there but mainly playing support characters.Now It's Shamy top surprisingly Howardette in the middle and Lenny are now the last place couple, and with that get the least attention and story plots.With the added misery of having them argue with no resolution , stupid jokes about why there together, and Sheldon even this last season taking digs  about there marriage.This is not what fans want to see.

Oh another depressing thing i rewatched season 10 and counted how many scenes there where with the couples in bed, there was a total of 13, how many of them  where of Lenny? ONE

Edited July 2, 2017 by Zephon75

[veejay]

39 minutes ago, Zephon75 said:

.....

Oh another depressing thing i rewatched season 10 and counted how many scenes there where with the couples in bed, there was a total of 13, how many of them  where of Lenny? ONE

Now I've had to search for a long time, which scene you probably meant.

How hilarious and...well, you know. 

 

[Swedish Chef]

1 hour ago, veejay said:

Now I've had to search for a long time, which scene you probably meant.

How hilarious and...well, you know. 

 

There is so much going on in this scene so I really don't know where to look.    sarcasm ????  Yes !

Edited July 2, 2017 by Lagernisse

[bfm]

2 hours ago, Zephon75 said:

If that was the case why didn't the same thing happen with Howard and Bernadette? I've never seen the level of arguments between Howardette that Lenny have been shown doing. Also this might be me but but the couples have  a sort of hierarchy it used to be Lenny at the top Shamy in the middle and Howardette last. With being bottom Howardette got the least attention from the writers getting the odd plot here or there but mainly playing support characters.Now It's Shamy top surprisingly Howardette in the middle and Lenny are now the last place couple, and with that get the least attention and story plots.With the added misery of having them argue with no resolution , stupid jokes about why there together, and Sheldon even this last season taking digs  about there marriage.This is not what fans want to see.

Oh another depressing thing i rewatched season 10 and counted how many scenes there where with the couples in bed, there was a total of 13, how many of them  where of Lenny? ONE

I agree about the hierarchy. Also, Howardette used to fight more and weren't as good as they are now, they got much better these last two seasons. Not that I have a problem with that! Absolutely not! But it's like the writers to some degree moved Lenny to their spot. I mean, Leonard burping while playing video games in his underwear with food on his shirt and all that when his wife is sitting next to him? That was not Leonard, it was Howard.

Edited July 2, 2017 by bfm

[veejay]

22 minutes ago, Lagernisse said:

There is so much going on in this scene so I really don't know where to look. 

…and as I said several times before, I do miss a sound function in this forum, (knock, knock, knock) LOL

1 minute ago, bfm said:

..... I mean, Leonard burping while playing video games in his underwear with food on his shirt next to his wife? That was not Leonard, it was Howard.

ooopsy, maybe I don't miss these function?

[Zephon75]

24 minutes ago, bfm said:

I agree about the hierarchy. Also, Howardette used to fight more and weren't as good as they are now, they got much better these last two seasons. Not that I have a problem with that! Absolutely not! But it's like the writers to some degree moved Lenny to their spot. I mean, Leonard burping while playing video games in his underwear with food on his shirt next to his wife? That was not Leonard, it was Howard.

I guess but even though Howardette did fight they where never like what Lenny have, i mean i don't remember Bernadette ever turning to Howard and telling him she was taking someone else with her to do something they where going to do together. You are right about that scene with Leonard in his underwear and burping and playing a video game Leonard had NEVER done anything like that before. But there he was doing something imo out of character, then again that whole episode was  had alot of ooc moments in it.

Edited July 2, 2017 by Zephon75

[bfm]

50 minutes ago, Zephon75 said:

I guess but even though Howardette did fight they where never like what Lenny have, i mean i don't remember Bernadette ever turning to Howard and telling him she was taking someone else with her to do something they where going to do together. You are right about that scene with Leonard in his underwear and burping and playing a video game Leonard had NEVER done anything like that before. But there he was doing something imo out of character, then again that whole episode was  had alot of ooc moments in it.

That was one of the most bizzare TBBT episodes ever. 

[veejay]

53 minutes ago, bfm said:

That was one of the most bizzare TBBT episodes ever. 

Absolutely right!

...well, I say it. This was by far the worst episode since 'Speckerman' and 'Itchy Brain' and no, I don't even mention the stupid RA again, damn.

[bfm]

1 hour ago, veejay said:

Absolutely right!

...well, I say it. This was by far the worst episode since 'Speckerman' and 'Itchy Brain' and no, I don't even mention the stupid RA again, damn.

Yeah right there on the list with these ones and only "The Good Guy Fluctuation", "The Collaboration Fluctuation" (what is it with these flactuation episodes? Is that their code name for OOC episodes?) and of course "The Commitment Determination" (although that one was fine up until the end).

[Tensor]

7 hours ago, 3ku11 said:

They are married now. Generally affection fades. And it becomes hard work.

Really?   It hasn't been hard work for me, and I've been married for forty years. Is your marriage hard work?

 

6 hours ago, veejay said:

Now I've had to search for a long time, which scene you probably meant.

 

And notice it was dominated by Sheldon. 

 

 

[veejay]

18 minutes ago, Tensor said:

And notice it was dominated by Sheldon.

(knock, knock, knock) …do I really have to use a sarcasm sign?