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[Spoilers] Season 11 Discussion Thread

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11 hours ago, April said:

Thanks @veejay!

The thing is: Conflict drives story and we all know Sheldon is a conflict magnet. He's the water to any instant-plot idea - "Just add Sheldon, let it stew for 10 minutes and enjoy your script!" The writers have been relying on that formula for a long long time, longer than many of you like to admit and longer even than Amy is on the show, and they need to get away from that.

Personally, I think with all the character growth Sheldon is at a point where they could easily do that. I think he can be a lot of fun if he's just a bystander occasionally commenting on the action around him instead of always being the focal point of whatever big drama he's caused this week. All the characters have their quirks and you could easily let Sheldon sit back a bit and relax now that his biggest issues seem to be sorted anyway. And especially do not straddle him with another dramatic twist or whatever cause we all know that'll only divert more attention towards him and nobody really needs that.

Obviously, it's impossible to get rid of that dynamic entirely so there will always be certain Sheldon-centric plots and such but toning it down would already help. And as said, what would help even more is going after the characters that really need the attention. I think both Shamy and Howardette are doing great. The writers nailed their character dynamics and they're very entertaining for me on their own and with others. So just leave them be. Lenny though are great as supportive friends but otherwise their personal stories are pretty aimless and messy. They need a common goal and some character focus that'll give them some development to get them out of the "straight man" trap they're in right now. Raj's story is a god damn train wreck although with a bit of potential for some good developments. In both cases of Lenny and Raj the writers need to sit down and hammer out some stories that play to the strengths of the characters and give them some much needed focus.

I really don't think the writers are willing to make this effort , and thats because the writers thinks it is easier and funnier to write about Shamy 

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15 minutes ago, Lagernisse said:

I really don't think the writers are willing to make this effort , and thats because the writers thinks it is easier and funnier to write about Shamy 

We may talk about art, creativity and originality, but the name of the game is pay-the-bills.
For me, personally, a little Sheldon goes a long way. I could live with seeing a lot less of him in the show. There are a bunch of other characters to focus on.
I do agree, JP is a great actor, but the character of Sheldon does grate on my last nerve sometimes.

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23 minutes ago, Lagernisse said:

I really don't think the writers are willing to make this effort , and thats because the writers thinks it is easier and funnier to write about Shamy 

I sure can't blame anyone who's given up hope that a change will ever happen. Personally, I'm also not particularly optimistic it'll be the case. Sure, you never know but even I'm already here long enough to know that endless "maybe in the next few episodes...!?" posts sound hollow to my ears and rile some of you up because the last years with this dance have been so tiresome.

There's a creative spark missing with Lenny and Raj and it's such a pity. Obviously, the writers will concentrate on what'll be the most fun from their perspective which currently is a big serving of Shamy with a side dish of Howardette while Lenny and Raj get the rehashed story beats with no proper solution or direction. Oh well.

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1 hour ago, veejay said:

We may talk about art, creativity and originality, but the name of the game is pay-the-bills.
For me, personally, a little Sheldon goes a long way. I could live with seeing a lot less of him in the show. There are a bunch of other characters to focus on.
I do agree, JP is a great actor, but the character of Sheldon does grate on my last nerve sometimes.

In the last 3 seasons, and especially season 10, I started to get sick of Sheldon sometimes. I like the character, I like JP but I feel I have been given a major Sheldon overdose. Too much of a (fairly) good thing can be bad.

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7 minutes ago, bfm said:

In the last 3 seasons, and especially season 10, I started to get sick of Sheldon sometimes. I like the character, I like JP but I feel I have been given a major Sheldon overdose. Too much of a (fairly) good thing can be bad.

Yeah, I love the character to bits and I love what they did with him and his relationship with Amy in S10 - aaaaand I also think he deserves a break. lol

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So while we're at the new season madness, talking of what we'd like or not this year, I have a courageous suggestion. What if we just cut off the romance for a while from the show? You know, go back to friendly gaming, ensemble episodes, something science related etc.. (BTW wasn't science the first love of every character except Penny)? There don't have to be any break ups, just maybe, we could do without all the relationship related, emotional roller coasters for a while. After all Lenny is Leonard and Penny, Shamy - Sheldon and Amy - they have their own personalities outside their relationships don't they?  Why not dig a bit into that...or are we really that far, relationships is the only thing writers and us stayed interested in? 

So I made my wish. And I almost forgot... humor. I gotta get my humor back.  :icon_wink:

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On 7/26/2017 at 5:19 PM, Lagernisse said:

I only have one wish for season 11 (actually two wishes: more Lenny screen time would be nice, but that's not gonna happen) that the writers tries to make the show funny again. The LOL moments in season 10 was few and far between ,especially in the second half of the season. There were way too many filler episodes in my opinion in the previous season. 

Make the show funny again ? Preach ! seasons 8-10 have not been good. this week , I re-watched classic *LOL* moments as you said... time went by quickly, it was oddly beautiful. The clips: the episode where Leonard and Sheldon start their own fantasy sword collection and go  to Will Wheaton's party(and make a mortal enemy too !),  Sheldon working with Penny & Bernie at the cheesecake factory and also the episode with the wormhole generator prank. So funny ! there was heart too. I don't care that much about the proposal drama/shipping/relationship stuff(JMO) but I just miss the simple oddball situational comedy, more than anything else.  sometimes I don't laugh at all now. Its been a while ! 

Edited by serena_1995
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15 hours ago, April said:

To be perfectly honest and a bit blunt here but:

I'll never understand the quick-fixes a lot of you guys are coming up with. The show is out of balance, nobody is denying that. But many of the suggestions I've read during my time here simply won't fix that. Quite the opposite actually, they will only make things worse for you. You're shooting yourself in the foot if you want the show to doctor around with some peripheral symptoms that don't address the core problem.

Like, framing Amy as the scapegoat that ruined everything and if you take her out What will happen is: 1) At least half a season if not more will be dedicated to Sheldon dealing with the pain of losing her forever. Look at the breakup arc and how it dealt with that. If you think that Sheldon will go back to being "robotic" or whatever then this alone made it clear that's never ever gonna happen again. 2) You won't automatically get more Lenny stories out of it. Season 9a wasn't the big Lenny era where they suddenly got a ton of amazing stories, now was it? They were relegated to the kitchen area being witnesses and occasionally commenting on Sheldon's life and taking care of him to the point of putting their married life on hold for a year. I don't remember any of you being particularly happy about that.

"But wait," I hear you say, "that was just because Amy was not really gone! What we really want is to let things go back to where it was before S4!!" Okay, pushing aside the fact that Amy won't be completely gone because contracts and such, let's entertain this idea. Let's say Sheldon has a short mourning period and then somehow magically transforms into his former self again what would happen? Looking at the S1-3 stories you'll get: 1) Sheldon third-wheeling Lenny like crazy cause he has no one else. He'll be nosing around their business all the time and I'm sure you'll looooove that. 2) You'll get Penny and Sheldon spending a ton of time together cause S2/3 were just full of that and if you want that again it means endless episodes with Shenny. 3) If you're lucky you'll also get Sheldon spending more time with Leonard and the boys. Again, what you won't get is automatically better and more Lenny stories cause the most important part back then was their will-they-won't-they courtship phase which obviously isn't an option now that they're married.

And that leads me to the core problem: Lenny itself, specifically that the writers don't have the creative drive for them that they have for the other two couples. That is the thing that needs fixing  - not with writing out some other character that will only drive attention away from the very thing that needs fixing! It's like when last year everyone was suggesting "Sheldon needs to move out - once he's out everything will finally be better for Lenny!!" Guess what, Sheldon moved out but the writers concentrated on Sheldon's new experiences instead of making Lenny better.  The only ones who can fix that are the writers by concentrating on Lenny. The easiest way to do this is let Shamy live happily in homeostasis in the background and become the couple at the kitchen island. Wishing bad things on them will only backfire massively if your goal is more attention for Lenny.

OMG, you are just so spot on!!!

The bold parts, I sooooooooooo agree.

The first bold part: TBH, when I rewatch Season 1 to 3, sometimes I'm really wondering why the writers didn't make Shenny together, especially after Lenny's broke up, and the writers sure as hell put a lot of efforts on these two characters' plots, some episodes really revolved around them. And then those episodes became the classic ones of the show. For example, 308, Adhesive Duck, I really think this episode was a standard script that would get the two characters together, I watch enough shows to know the "pattern". So I think if Sheldon didn't have Amy(nah, not just Amy, girlfriend for that matter), they would definitely make Sheldon the third wheel, to the point that the audience would think Leonard is the "real" third wheel. Like in Season 9, I think some of the Shenny plots or lines were so much better than the Lenny ones. They even got a hot kiss on screen for God's sake! And I think Penny treated Sheldon much better than she treated her REAL  husband, Leonard. That was just so messed up. UGH.

 

The second bold part: Yes, so true. Look at 1022, we got Shamy on the back burner, so the writers could focus on Lenny. Albeit they still obsessed with Penny's job and didn't get some new things out of it, but at least Lenny was in the center of the episode. And I hope we could get more like this in the next two seasons. Shamy are happy together in the back, and Lenny gets more decent plots.

 

And @April, I really loooooooove your posts, you just made a lot of sense of the show, and the writers' intentions, for that matter. Thank you!!!

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2 hours ago, serena_1995 said:

Make the show funny again ? Preach ! seasons 8-10 have not been good. this week , I re-watched classic *LOL* moments as you said... time went by quickly, it was oddly beautiful. The clips: the episode where Leonard and Sheldon start their own fantasy sword collection and go  to Will Wheaton's party(and make a mortal enemy too !),  Sheldon working with Penny & Bernie at the cheesecake factory and also the episode with the wormhole generator prank. So funny ! there was heart too. I don't care that much about the proposal drama/shipping/relationship stuff(JMO) but I just miss the simple oddball situational comedy, more than anything else.  sometimes I don't laugh at all now. Its been a while ! 

I can only agree with this, these past seasons there have been a few times when I have doubted if I'm watching a sit-com or a relationship drama. 

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12 hours ago, JohnPhD said:

The current situation is that Shamy scenes are hogging the screentime. A pre-requisite for fixing Lenny is screentime to do it in, so Shamy have to be moved aside. Letting them live happily in the background sounds reasonable, but I don't think the programme makers can be trusted to keep them there. That's why I believe Amy should go - to be safe. And Sheldon could go back to his first love - his own mind.

I certainly don't believe that wonderful Lenny will automatically expand into the space vacated by Shamy, and I don't think anyone else said so. You are quite right that the writing of L & P needs fixing. I would guess they need to change some of the writing team and maybe the showrunner, but I don't claim to know how brilliant Lenny writing is to be achieved. But they had it for many seasons (still a majority of past seasons) so it can be done. And really they only need to give KC half a chance to show what she can do.

Personally I wouldn't mind Sheldon third-wheeling Lenny if it was done well. Lots of sitcom households are eccentric in some way, so why not the Hofstatders and their Sheldon? Plus Sheldon could provide conflict and problems for L&P to confront - we can't have them just being lovey-dovey all the time.

Yeah this pretty much. The show are giving Shamy too mich screen time. How can they fix Lenny writing wise. If 90% of the screen time is Shamy. They put so much energy into Sheldon. They have none left for the other characters You just can't  ignore the fact. That Shamy are the centre of the show. And with season 10 ending with Sheldon proposing. Clearly tptb well be focusing around that's the first five tapings.

So until they put Shamy in the background. And work on fixing a fractured Lenny and other characters. Well,that won't change. I agree that is why I think writing Amy out. Would fix a lot of these issues. Sheldon can go back to like you said being in a relationship with his mind. The source of good sitcoms is conflict. Their is currently none.

Point is unless Moloro steps down. Or they get new writers. Or Prady comes back on board. I don't see much changing with Lenny in the next two seasons. I don't expect to get an award winning post, for sharing my opinion. But this is my pov. 

Eta: I don't expect Amy to Be ever written out. This is all hypothetical 

Edited by 3ku11
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5 hours ago, tallin said:

So while we're at the new season madness, talking of what we'd like or not this year, I have a courageous suggestion. What if we just cut off the romance for a while from the show? You know, go back to friendly gaming, ensemble episodes, something science related etc.. (BTW wasn't science the first love of every character except Penny)? There don't have to be any break ups, just maybe, we could do without all the relationship related, emotional roller coasters for a while. After all Lenny is Leonard and Penny, Shamy - Sheldon and Amy - they have their own personalities outside their relationships don't they?  Why not dig a bit into that...or are we really that far, relationships is the only thing writers and us stayed interested in? 

So I made my wish. And I almost forgot... humor. I gotta get my humor back.  :icon_wink:

thumbup7.gif.b13b5bd30385600233f370828b455213.gif

Thank you!  :shy:

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22 hours ago, bfm said:

In the last 3 seasons, and especially season 10, I started to get sick of Sheldon sometimes. I like the character, I like JP but I feel I have been given a major Sheldon overdose. Too much of a (fairly) good thing can be bad.

I think the big exercise that Tensor did shows Sheldon has always had a great deal of air time. It is just the way TBBT is. Add to that the one spin of is young Sheldon and I don't see how we can conclude anything but the producers are fascinated by Sheldon.

____

edit -- that was to read big not bit -- typo

Edited by djsurrey
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5 hours ago, serena_1995 said:

Make the show funny again ? Preach ! seasons 8-10 have not been good. this week , I re-watched classic *LOL* moments as you said... time went by quickly, it was oddly beautiful. The clips: the episode where Leonard and Sheldon start their own fantasy sword collection and go  to Will Wheaton's party(and make a mortal enemy too !),  Sheldon working with Penny & Bernie at the cheesecake factory and also the episode with the wormhole generator prank. So funny ! there was heart too. I don't care that much about the proposal drama/shipping/relationship stuff(JMO) but I just miss the simple oddball situational comedy, more than anything else.  sometimes I don't laugh at all now. Its been a while ! 

Spot on you, Serena. :shy:

n_119.gif.c876464440521947784f9daadf3d86fb.gif

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5 hours ago, tallin said:

What if we just cut off the romance for a while from the show?

They have a new series for that.

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On 7/26/2017 at 4:31 PM, JohnPhD said:

 JG, JP and KC created the show (with some assistance from SH and KN). When MB was brought in she was luggage (although she may have a personal following who wouldn't have liked TBBT without her). 

The erotic spark between Leonard and Penny is unmistakeable. The love of L&P has been so beautifully acted as to captivate even an old cynic like me who usually despises love stories in sitcoms.

In contrast, there has never been the slightest chemistry between JP and MB. MB was brought in to play Amy as an obnoxious woman with no sex-appeal obsessed with a man indifferent to sex, whose belief that Sheldon was her "boyfriend" was a joke. She played this role perfectly well. She has utterly failed to convert Amy into a woman that Sheldon could actually love and want to have sex with. Perhaps the character transformation was too drastic and nobody could have done it. Anyway, MB couldn't. Sheldon's declarations of love have been completely unbelievable because no-one could love Amy. The lack of any erotic spark between them makes the spectacle of their getting physical even to the extent of a kiss quite creepy to watch

 

If there is such a big spark, how many times have they been nominated?

Now compare that to MB and JP.

16 hours ago, JohnPhD said:

The current situation is that Shamy scenes are hogging the screentime. A pre-requisite for fixing Lenny is screentime to do it in, so Shamy have to be moved aside. Letting them live happily in the background sounds reasonable, but I don't think the programme makers can be trusted to keep them there. That's why I believe Amy should go - to be safe. And Sheldon could go back to his first love - his own mind.

I certainly don't believe that wonderful Lenny will automatically expand into the space vacated by Shamy, and I don't think anyone else said so. You are quite right that the writing of L & P needs fixing. I would guess they need to change some of the writing team and maybe the showrunner, but I don't claim to know how brilliant Lenny writing is to be achieved. But they had it for many seasons (still a majority of past seasons) so it can be done. And really they only need to give KC half a chance to show what she can do.

Personally I wouldn't mind Sheldon third-wheeling Lenny if it was done well. Lots of sitcom households are eccentric in some way, so why not the Hofstatders and their Sheldon? Plus Sheldon could provide conflict and problems for L&P to confront - we can't have them just being lovey-dovey all the time.

But how do you fix a couple who have nothing in common, unlike Shamy.

That's why Shamy is "hogging" the screen time.

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And yet Howardette get less screen time than Lenny and in my view have better storylines than them especially the season just gone.

I don't think they need to massively increase their screen time, more importantly they need some new ideas for them both as individual characters and as a couple.

It's always been a Sheldon dominated show so screen time changes that people are calling for are very unlikely to happen. But if I was a Lenny I would be looking for ways to maximise the quality of the screen time they do get like Howardette have been doing for many seasons now.

Edited by Jonny
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4 hours ago, djsurrey said:

I think the bit exercise that Tensor did shows Sheldon has always had a great deal of air time. It is just the way TBBT is. Add to that the one spin of is young Sheldon and I don't see how we can conclude anything but the producers are fascinated by Sheldon.

That is true but if you look at it relatively you can see that Sheldon has gotten increasingly more focus than Leonard who was the other character with so much screen time.

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20 minutes ago, bfm said:

I know some will disagree but I never saw anything romantic in Shenny. I remember an interview with Jim in which he said he didn't either. They didn't get them together because there was nothing romantic between them, it was all friendly, no more romantic than Shelnard - a pairing that got A LOT of screen time. The Shenny friendship worked especially good in early seasons becaise they didn't know each other well enough and are so opposite. "The Adhesive Duck"? It lacked the most important part of "the pattern" - the part where they start seeing each other differently. Nope. They never ever were attracted to one another. That season 9 kiss IMO was to please, for a minute, those who shipped them as a romantic couple because JMO it will never ever happen. Honestly Shenny scenes didn't bother me at all before I got to the forum and fanfiction and saw that some shipped them romantically ("The Spock Recurrence" and "The Viewing Party Combustion did bother me but because Penny was such a b**** to her husband, like in "The Collaboration Fluctuation"). 

Sometimes...

shen_0114.gif.c476a0d79fdd8fab1c3535468db5b5ce.gif

...but...

shen_0146.gif.2968193a050bbdb57e68e6ae3bd9118a.gif

:shy:

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3 hours ago, Chiany said:

If there is such a big spark, how many times have they been nominated?

Now compare that to MB and JP.

What do nominations have to do with spark ? Jim  was nominated for Emmys in seasons 2,3 and 4. That was before Mayim was a main character on the show. Those awards/nominations had little to do with Shamy spark (esp the ones from s2 and 3). Conversely, there has been plenty of shamy focus in season 9-10, yet neither Jim, nor Mayim got any Emmy nominations during these years. I'm happy to be corrected but i think chemistry is a bit subjective . Nominations can also mean the actors were individually funny in their scenes too. 

I do think Johnny and Kaley had great chemistry in the older seasons. Jim and Kaley were also comedy gold imo. Many TV critics praised the old  Sheldon/Penny interactions . Its a pity Kaley was never nominated. Johnny was nominated for an Emmy though. 

Edited by serena_1995
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1 hour ago, bfm said:

I know some will disagree but I never saw anything romantic in Shenny. I remember an interview with Jim in which he said he didn't either. They didn't get them together because there was nothing romantic between them, it was all friendly, no more romantic than Shelnard - a pairing that got A LOT of screen time. The Shenny friendship worked especially good in early seasons becaise they didn't know each other well enough and are so opposite.

I think this is an excellent example of how the writers will latch onto whatever pairing they find will give the most entertainment. The show started out with a strong Shelnard focus in S1 but then somewhere along the way the writers discovered the Sheldon vs. Penny dynamic and latched onto that for like 3 seasons.

Then Shamy became the next hot thing and basically have been since at least S6 where their alone time got a huge boost and dominated all the other couples (romantic or platonic) - that's 5 out of 10 seasons so that's literally half the show by now. And with S10 getting another increase I don't see their interest waning any time soon. Maybe a little and back to S6-S9 levels but not to the extend some wish it to be.

Question then remains: How do you turn Lenny into something that's equally interesting for the writers?

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16 minutes ago, April said:

Question then remains: How do you turn Lenny into something that's equally interesting for the writers?

Struggling to think of anything to be honest.

I mean a pregnancy storyline has just been done on the show so I have my doubts back to back seasons involving a pregnancy storyline will appeal to a great deal of viewers. I think the writers will want at least a season away from that type of storyline. 

Penny's career? I think they will bring it up again this season but will it go anywhere? A large part of me thinks they will always use her career as a way to cause friction between them, you got a bit of that again in Season 10 (of course by the end they usually are on the same page in these discussions). I REALLY DON'T want to see her return to acting!

They won't move them out of the building into their own house, that really would kill off the show. They want Shamy and Lenny in close proximity to each other.

Leonard has just lost the guidance system project so I guess a new project might provide something for him.

I think you probably need one main storyline for both of them and them maybe add some smaller ones like a new found hobbies or interests?

How about they get them out of Pasadena and visit either Penny or Leonard's family? Episodes are only 20 mins or so but they could fit something in one of them to show they have done that. They managed that with Shamy visiting Mary in Texas.

Maybe Penny's career finally gets resolved and Leonard gets some new project he is really into? Though that might also involve the guys, pretty sure I saw some quotes a while back with Molaro that they might get them all together on a new project again, maybe including Raj this time in some way.

Edited by Jonny
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12 minutes ago, April said:

Question then remains: How do you turn Lenny into something that's equally interesting for the writers?

Well that, my friend, is the crux of our sorrows isn't it? *Sigh*

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1 hour ago, Jonny said:

And yet Howardette get less screen time than Lenny and in my view have better storylines than them especially the season just gone.

I don't think they need to massively increase their screen time, more importantly they need some new ideas for them both as individual characters and as a couple.

It's always been a Sheldon dominated show so screen time changes that people are calling for are very unlikely to happen. But if I was a Lenny I would be looking for ways to maximise the quality of the screen time they do get like Howardette have been doing for many seasons now.

Yes, I think more focus for Lenny means first and foremost better writing for them. In Season 9 and 10 especially, IMO, there have been a lot of episodes where it looked like the writers were setting a story arc for them, while they turned out to be just one-off plots, which altogether made no sense. It would have needed very little to make some of the plots they got in S. 10 more positive for them. Take The Cognition Regeneration for example. While I didn't like Leonard bragging about his wife's ability in a job she hates (and he knows that by now...), I thought he was supportive as he realized she really wanted to quit being a pharm. rep. If the episode ended with a few seconds scene where Leonard and Penny are working together on her resume, looking for job offers or Leonard is suggesting her some alternative careers, that would have set a positive story arc,  to be tackled eventually in the next season. That would have taken more or less the same amount of time of the "thumbs up" joke the writers came up with, but it would have been much more significative for Lenny.

The same thing I think holds true with Raj, probably even more for him. The writers seems to be setting a lot of plots for him, like dating Emily, dating two women, giving up to his parents money and moving in with Lenny, but then they don't follow up with that, so the audience can't even understand what's going on with him. He dated Emily for 2 years, but the audience didn't get really accustomed to her because we saw very little about this couple. Then suddenly he wanted to break up with her, and when he finally decided to do that, the whole "dating two girls" affair started. Thanks goodness we didn't get to see much of that, because frankly it was cringeworthy, but I think the way the menage-a-troi ended deserved to be seen on screen. Then he decided to grow up, very good idea indeed, but how did he do that? He stopped sponging his parents just to sponge Lenny and then he went out of their house too suddenly, without much explanations (he shouldn't have entered their house to begin with, TBH). Frankly, it looks like the writers are just writing random plots for Raj, in the hope that one of them sticks with the audience, but up to now the haven't had much luck, at least in my case, since I don't buy any of them.

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