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[Spoilers] Season 11 Discussion Thread

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32 minutes ago, April said:

....

Question then remains: How do you turn Lenny into something that's equally interesting for the writers?

Who, if not TPTB and the writers themselves, can give Lenny some more interesting and fun stories and continue the whole series back to a cheerful ensemble comedy? They should be professionals enough. :scratchhead:

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34 minutes ago, mirs1 said:

Yes, I think more focus for Lenny means first and foremost better writing for them. In Season 9 and 10 especially, IMO, there have been a lot of episodes where it looked like the writers were setting a story arc for them, while they turned out to be just one-off plots, which altogether made no sense. It would have needed very little to make some of the plots they got in S. 10 more positive for them. Take The Cognition Regeneration for example. While I didn't like Leonard bragging about his wife's ability in a job she hates (and he knows that by now...), I thought he was supportive as he realized she really wanted to quit being a pharm. rep. If the episode ended with a few seconds scene where Leonard and Penny are working together on her resume, looking for job offers or Leonard is suggesting her some alternative careers, that would have set a positive story arc,  to be tackled eventually in the next season. That would have taken more or less the same amount of time of the "thumbs up" joke the writers came up with, but it would have been much more significative for Lenny.

The same thing I think holds true with Raj, probably even more for him. The writers seems to be setting a lot of plots for him, like dating Emily, dating two women, giving up to his parents money and moving in with Lenny, but then they don't follow up with that, so the audience can't even understand what's going on with him. He dated Emily for 2 years, but the audience didn't get really accustomed to her because we saw very little about this couple. Then suddenly he wanted to break up with her, and when he finally decided to do that, the whole "dating two girls" affair started. Thanks goodness we didn't get to see much of that, because frankly it was cringeworthy, but I think the way the menage-a-troi ended deserved to be seen on screen. Then he decided to grow up, very good idea indeed, but how did he do that? He stopped sponging his parents just to sponge Lenny and then he went out of their house too suddenly, without much explanations (he shouldn't have entered their house to begin with, TBH). Frankly, it looks like the writers are just writing random plots for Raj, in the hope that one of them sticks with the audience, but up to now the haven't had much luck, at least in my case, since I don't buy any of them.

Exactly! Imo the major problem with Raj 's plots is the lack of a well built story arc. For be realistic what is writen for a character, even in a sitcom where plots tend to be not very complex but tbbt had proved they can get complex in comedy field, the character's life has to have a purpose, a goal. It is a question of writers give Raj and also lenny the enough time to focusing in table writing/reading for make their plots get more interisting. Honestly I am not much hopeful but at same time I want much that could be possible to happen to these three characters. It would not hurt if shamy and howardette could get most of plots b for next seasons for it allowed lenny and Raj to shine more. Shamy eventually get engaged soon and all their steps foward about that could be plots b for a while . As fan of the show I am rooting much for that. The show is great but it would be much better if writers could do that.

Edited by spidergirl
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I personally think there will be more sheldon plots about child hood problems so they can be used in the new series

Sent from my SM-G930P using Tapatalk

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47 minutes ago, legacy99 said:

I personally think there will be more sheldon plots about child hood problems so they can be used in the new series

Damn, that’s a clever idea. Don’t tell the writers!  :fi_lone_ranger:

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4 hours ago, bfm said:

I know some will disagree but I never saw anything romantic in Shenny.

Me neither.

Sheldon and Penny explained it perfectly:-

Penny: Aw, sweetie, I’m comfortable around you, too.

Sheldon: Of course you are, I’m warm and soothing. I’m like a human bowl of tomato soup.

Penny: I meant more like a little brother.

Sheldon: Oh. Well, I suppose I do think of you as a sister. And sometimes, a mother.

Edited by Stephen Hawking
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We talk about "the writers" but I for one know little about them. Does anyone know how much change of writing personnel there is over the years? I find it hard to believe that the present show is written by the same people who gave us the classic seasons when Penny and Leonard's romance was the long-term story arc. Or is it all down the the showrunner, and the writers just fill in the plots they're told to? Should those of us who hate the replacement of The Big Bang Theory we enjoyed by The Shamy Show just blame Molaro?

There has of course been a resulting change in the audience. It seems that the programme makers guessed or found that foregrounding Amy brought in a new lot of viewers who were not fans of the original TBBT. They have increasingly pandered to this new fanbase, evidently judging that it's worthwhile to lose some of the original fans in the process. I think we old-line TBBT fans are justified in feeling betrayed.

A couple of episodes provide evidence of long-term planning to go that way. Before Amy's first appearance, there was an episode where Leonard said something to the effect that "that chick who played Blossom has a science PhD". This otherwise random and pointless line indicates that the makers were planning to try to bring in old fans of Blossom by hiring MB. And in 623 The Love Spell Potential Amy complains to Sheldon that "people think our relationship is a joke", to which S replies that it's very intimate by his standards. The "people" referred to IMO are really the viewers: A & S's relationship was a joke, and this is an early warning that in later seasons the makers would try to transform it into a real romance, which they presumably thought was what the newer fanbase wanted. That this was done at the expense of the real romance they already had, Penny and Leonard, shows that they don't care about the old fans.

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17 minutes ago, JohnPhD said:

A couple of episodes provide evidence of long-term planning to go that way. Before Amy's first appearance, there was an episode where Leonard said something to the effect that "that chick who played Blossom has a science PhD". This otherwise random and pointless line indicates that the makers were planning to try to bring in old fans of Blossom by hiring MB. And in 623 

There was no evil plan. In 1.13 (the episode you are mentioning) the writers didn't even know the show would have been renewed for a third season, let alone all the others. Mayim Bialik auditioned for the part of Amy, as well as many other characters actresses, Kate Micucci was one of them, and she got the role. Then  the writers liked how she mingled with the group and increased her presence in the show, as they did for Melissa/Bernie. Sorry if that doesn't please anybody, but...that's life.

As for the writers, there have been some changes over the years, people have been added and other have gone, but Molaro specifically was there since 1.02 and the "core group" has always been stable.

Edited by mirs1
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35 minutes ago, JohnPhD said:

We talk about "the writers" but I for one know little about them. Does anyone know how much change of writing personnel there is over the years? I find it hard to believe that the present show is written by the same people who gave us the classic seasons when Penny and Leonard's romance was the long-term story arc. Or is it all down the the showrunner, and the writers just fill in the plots they're told to? Should those of us who hate the replacement of The Big Bang Theory we enjoyed by The Shamy Show just blame Molaro?

I don't think that was the overall plan for the show in that there was only ever going to be one romance arc.

Leonard was the one male in the group who is probably more open to the world and social situations compared to Sheldon, Howard and Raj. There was a reason why he was seen as the leader in situations like that, he was always going to be the one who had relationships early on. It was natural that he would then likely have more success when it came to dating.

But obviously as the characters got older and changed the others became more wise to the world (thanks to Leonard and Penny in large part) they dipped their toes into things like dating themselves. Howard found Bernadette and Sheldon found Amy. Plus giving them girlfriends also gave Penny girl friends and gave her character more depth and more storyline opportunities. If you ask me it was a genius move and very well executed.

I think it would have been weird and unrealistic if you had Leonard and Penny in a stable relationship (or more likely 'on and off' if that really was a long term arc and the only romance on the show) and then you had Howard and Raj unlucky in love all the time and Sheldon oblivious to it. Could that have gone on for a few more seasons? I think the writers saw something there, perhaps even maybe started to struggle behind the scenes that made them realize they had to change it up. I personally thought the show was starting to get a bit stale around Season 3.

44 minutes ago, JohnPhD said:

There has of course been a resulting change in the audience. It seems that the programme makers guessed or found that foregrounding Amy brought in a new lot of viewers who were not fans of the original TBBT. They have increasingly pandered to this new fanbase, evidently judging that it's worthwhile to lose some of the original fans in the process. I think we old-line TBBT fans are justified in feeling betrayed.

Good tv shows adapt to their tv audience and great ones sometimes shape it. I think in this case the show recognized the characters getting older, becoming more life experienced and saw an opportunity there to develop it. Have they lost fans over the years? Probably but they will have gained some as well. They know their show and their vision.

To quote the guy who is without question the main power behind the show:

Quote

"We never said the word 'nerd' or 'geek'; those words came later; they were attached to the show. We were more interested in these guys that were crazy smart and their inability to move through the world that the rest of us take for granted."

Chuck Lorre

"Inability to move through the world that rest of us take for granted". It's a show about life.

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16 minutes ago, Jonny said:

I don't think that was the overall plan for the show in that there was only ever going to be one romance arc.

Leonard was the one male in the group who is probably more open to the world and social situations compared to Sheldon, Howard and Raj. There was a reason why he was seen as the leader in situations like that, he was always going to be the one who had relationships early on. It was natural that he would then likely have more success when it came to dating.

But obviously as the characters got older and changed the others became more wise to the world (thanks to Leonard and Penny in large part) they dipped their toes into things like dating themselves. Howard found Bernadette and Sheldon found Amy. Plus giving them girlfriends also gave Penny girl friends and gave her character more depth and more storyline opportunities. If you ask me it was a genius move and very well executed.

I think it would have been weird and unrealistic if you had Leonard and Penny in a stable relationship (or more likely 'on and off' if that really was a long term arc and the only romance on the show) and then you had Howard and Raj unlucky in love all the time and Sheldon oblivious to it. Could that have gone on for a few more seasons? I think the writers saw something there, perhaps even maybe started to struggle behind the scenes that made them realize they had to change it up. I personally thought the show was starting to get a bit stale around Season 3.

Good tv shows adapt to their tv audience and great ones sometimes shape it. I think in this case the show recognized the characters getting older, becoming more life experienced and saw an opportunity there to develop it. Have they lost fans over the years? Probably but they will have gained some as well. They know their show and their vision.

To quote the guy who is without question the main power behind the show:

"Inability to move through the world that rest of us take for granted". It's a show about life.

This!! ^^

And that premise about these guys to move through the world  was what made imo this show really be worth of my time  as viewer. I had watched lots of shows that at certain point it seemed I was watching the characters going on circles around certain standard storyplots. Tbbt with their characters development about friendship, romantic relationship s  and their own character's growth had made the difference. It has not been perfect but it is always possible to improve as long as writers make the effort.

Edited by spidergirl
Sentence improved
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18 hours ago, tallin said:

So while we're at the new season madness, talking of what we'd like or not this year, I have a courageous suggestion. What if we just cut off the romance for a while from the show? You know, go back to friendly gaming, ensemble episodes, something science related etc.. (BTW wasn't science the first love of every character except Penny)? There don't have to be any break ups, just maybe, we could do without all the relationship related, emotional roller coasters for a while.

YES! Raj's scavenger hunt was one of the last times he really had a purpose that I enjoyed and laughed about. Or have characters together but don't make it cloying, like The Parking Spot Escalation. If they have to do a group thing and can't use Melissa, that's okay. They can say Bernie and Howard are doing something with the baby and just make Stuart funny again.

2 hours ago, Capt. Hilts said:

She gets an affirmation from her friendship with Bernadette and Amy because their friendship has its own momentum, aside from those they all have with the guys.  It shows that she can hold her own with schooled [different from 'educated'] people and that they like and respect her despite her lack of degrees.  That's important.  

That IS important. Thank you. That's a great comment.

9 hours ago, bfm said:

I know some will disagree but I never saw anything romantic in Shenny.

I totally agree with you. The show was best for me when she was pointing out how weird he was and he was pointing out how dumb she could be at times. When they stopped being adversarial I think we lost a lot of the laughs.

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19 hours ago, serena_1995 said:

Make the show funny again ? Preach ! seasons 8-10 have not been good. this week , I re-watched classic *LOL* moments as you said... time went by quickly, it was oddly beautiful. The clips: the episode where Leonard and Sheldon start their own fantasy sword collection and go  to Will Wheaton's party(and make a mortal enemy too !),  Sheldon working with Penny & Bernie at the cheesecake factory and also the episode with the wormhole generator prank. So funny ! there was heart too. I don't care that much about the proposal drama/shipping/relationship stuff(JMO) but I just miss the simple oddball situational comedy, more than anything else.  sometimes I don't laugh at all now. Its been a while ! 

Serena: I eco yours an Tallin's sentiment as well. While I'm a Lenny through and through I'd much rather get a little break from all the relationship stuff and concentrate more on science and making the show funny again. I mean, after all it is supposed  to be a comedy, right? Also the oddball aspects of their personalities was a big part of what made the show interesting.

12 hours ago, Chiany said:

If there is such a big spark, how many times have they been nominated?

Now compare that to MB and JP.

But how do you fix a couple who have nothing in common, unlike Shamy.

That's why Shamy is "hogging" the screen time.

With logic like that....and also. please stop putting your opinions as if they were fact because they clearly are not.

Edited by Carlos
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9 hours ago, Jonny said:

Struggling to think of anything to be honest.

I mean a pregnancy storyline has just been done on the show so I have my doubts back to back seasons involving a pregnancy storyline will appeal to a great deal of viewers. I think the writers will want at least a season away from that type of storyline. 

Penny's career? I think they will bring it up again this season but will it go anywhere? A large part of me thinks they will always use her career as a way to cause friction between them, you got a bit of that again in Season 10 (of course by the end they usually are on the same page in these discussions). I REALLY DON'T want to see her return to acting!

They won't move them out of the building into their own house, that really would kill off the show. They want Shamy and Lenny in close proximity to each other.

Leonard has just lost the guidance system project so I guess a new project might provide something for him.

I think you probably need one main storyline for both of them and them maybe add some smaller ones like a new found hobbies or interests?

How about they get them out of Pasadena and visit either Penny or Leonard's family? Episodes are only 20 mins or so but they could fit something in one of them to show they have done that. They managed that with Shamy visiting Mary in Texas.

Maybe Penny's career finally gets resolved and Leonard gets some new project he is really into? Though that might also involve the guys, pretty sure I saw some quotes a while back with Molaro that they might get them all together on a new project again, maybe including Raj this time in some way.

I'm sure the writers could come up with something if that was what they wanted to do. I doubt they will and I don't think it is because they are lazy. I think they are more interested in writing the Sheldon Amy story and my guess is they decided to keep Leonard and Penny without much in the way of common interests. Sheldon and Amy have a lot further to go to get close to "normal".

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10 hours ago, Jonny said:

Struggling to think of anything to be honest.

I mean a pregnancy storyline has just been done on the show so I have my doubts back to back seasons involving a pregnancy storyline will appeal to a great deal of viewers. I think the writers will want at least a season away from that type of storyline. 

Penny's career? I think they will bring it up again this season but will it go anywhere? A large part of me thinks they will always use her career as a way to cause friction between them, you got a bit of that again in Season 10 (of course by the end they usually are on the same page in these discussions). I REALLY DON'T want to see her return to acting!

They won't move them out of the building into their own house, that really would kill off the show. They want Shamy and Lenny in close proximity to each other.

Leonard has just lost the guidance system project so I guess a new project might provide something for him.

I think you probably need one main storyline for both of them and them maybe add some smaller ones like a new found hobbies or interests?

How about they get them out of Pasadena and visit either Penny or Leonard's family? Episodes are only 20 mins or so but they could fit something in one of them to show they have done that. They managed that with Shamy visiting Mary in Texas.

Maybe Penny's career finally gets resolved and Leonard gets some new project he is really into? Though that might also involve the guys, pretty sure I saw some quotes a while back with Molaro that they might get them all together on a new project again, maybe including Raj this time in some way.

Sure there are some great ideas that you have mentioned and it sounds really great but why would the writers focus on Lenny and Raj now all of a sudden when they have neglected them for several  seasons.  I really don't see any changes in the writing of the show these two last seasons to be honest. I think the writers has shown several times these last seasons that don't care one bit about Lenny and Raj anymore. 

Edited by Lagernisse
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Well the initial premise is Leonard meets Penny. So while in the long run it wasent the long term story arch. Lenny are the centre of th show, always have been.

While they could do allot more stories with Lenny. I don't expect them too. Tptb are to obsessed with Sheldon. Tbbt have major problems moving forward. And that is one of them. All great comedies have conflict. Once SP became friends, i agree. The comedy was gone. Tbbt is not a conventional sitcom. But over the years it has, become just another sitcom. I miss the odd ball, situational comedy.

And this whole argument who's got more chemistry J and K, or J and M. Honestly they are all brilliant, and all,contribute to making what the show is. In their own unique way.

Edited by 3ku11
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7 hours ago, Stephen Hawking said:

Define "normal".

Oh, I thought I could avoid that by putting it in quotes. Besides I was talking about Sheldon and Amy so it did not seem to be necessary.

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20 hours ago, djsurrey said:

I'm sure the writers could come up with something if that was what they wanted to do. I doubt they will and I don't think it is because they are lazy. I think they are more interested in writing the Sheldon Amy story and my guess is they decided to keep Leonard and Penny without much in the way of common interests. Sheldon and Amy have a lot further to go to get close to "normal".

Don't worry I know what you meant by normal, as in catching up with rest in terms of relationship progression and reaching some of the same milestones. For years they were well behind the others but they seem to be catching up with some speed now.

Do the writers enjoy/more interested in writing some characters more than others? You would have to ask them, two very quirky (Mary Cooper would say weird lol) in their own right (both unique in some ways in terms of television) characters so that might give the writers a bit more scope when it comes to writing. I think with some of the characters they can easily fall into TV trope traps, but they have also created characters that they just don't or very rarely do with them.

But for me that doesn't excuse some of the dross I saw last season when it came to Leonard, Penny and Raj (Raj is more of a 10 year thing though, the guy really has no story when you break it down and examine it). I think they can do better, whether they will or not remains to be seen. It won't stop me from watching the show, but I will grumble if those characters get more of the same in Season 11.

I keep banging on about the convention but that for me highlighted the very thing that is wrong with Leonard and Penny's storylines and the mindset of the writers. They could have reversed that storyline in terms of who it benefited, maybe had less casual comedy but came out with a much better and rewarding outcome IMO.

Edited by Jonny
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"Normal" is a subjective concept. Maybe what was meant as "normal " was  to compare what is called "normal " between relationships? Even in that situation imo for what we have been watching from the show all these seasons, the conclusion about normality is a bit vague, as all relationships have their foudations settled in different concepts from different circunstances and the people involved are all friends but very different compared among each others. 

Each couple from this show is very different from others but has nothing wrong about them, aside relationship issues as any healthy couple has. 

 

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11 minutes ago, Jonny said:

Don't worry I know what you meant by normal, as in catching up with rest in terms of relationship progression and reaching some of the same milestones.

I don't consider Howard and Bernadette's relationship to be particularly healthy.

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3 minutes ago, Stephen Hawking said:

I don't consider Howard and Bernadette's relationship to be particularly healthy.

Why, if I may ask?

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2 hours ago, Stephen Hawking said:

I don't consider Howard and Bernadette's relationship to be particularly healthy.

I've felt the same way.

I think Howard's mother being out of the picture has helped him and them.

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30 minutes ago, Capt. Hilts said:

I've felt the same way.

I think Howard's mother being out of the picture has helped him and them.

I understand your point, as you said it was before Howard's  mother being out of the picture  and I have to agree with you in part . Because I think Bernardete since earlier made Howard to realize they were a couple and not a three people relationship and that in end always worked  to benefit of them as couple.  Nowadays I dont see their relationship as not healthy at all. There is the relationship with Stuart and Raj but imo these have not any impact directly to the couple. It is more about who is looking after Haley time. It is my opinion on this subject though.

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