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[Spoilers] Season 11 Discussion Thread

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On 11/30/2017 at 5:41 PM, vonmar said:

Agreed, But CBS might be feeling a little more sensitive now, after the Charlie Rose debacle.  Their taping schedule puts TBBT a little behind current events. So it will be interesting to see if they are reined in at all.

That why I think TBBT should o an Epsidoe where PEnny is Sexually Harassed by a Co-Worker who in the end get fired.  That may end all the S*ut Shaming" Jokes about Penny especially from Sheldon. IT would b a good teaching moment with the current reckoning going on.  

 

Eventually, I think they will tone it down. 

9 hours ago, Chrismo said:

Season 2 "The Friendship Algorithm". He tries to make friends with a 9 year old at the library. Don't think Harvey Weinstein tried to do that.

 No but Roy Moore probably done that 

Edited by MTBigBangTheoryFan
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11 hours ago, DoctorWhat said:

As far as I'm concerned that was funny.They shouldn't have excluded Sheldon in the first place and I am also biased since I hate Leonard.Anyway,this is coming from someone who loves the peep show - a show with horrible main characters?

True, and what's more their reason for doing so had criminal intent behind it. 

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On 01/12/2017 at 2:21 AM, Nogravitasatall said:

I disagree with this construction  because making choices about having sexual relationships with some people doesn’t mean you explicitly agree to be “dinner tonight” with everyone. And we have no evidence, that I recall, that Penny had any predatory agenda. 

If she had been predatory then I’d reconsider in this specific case.

But if she was just another woman, choosing to simply to “date” more frequently than might be a norm held by women who self-identify as decent, then I’d be fine. America is a free country. That sounds like freedom to me.

Your point is interesting. Not sure about the social harm a busy Penny commits, compared to Sheldon broadcasting his derision.

And if you look at cases, most (how many decimals after the 99% I don’t know) of the events happen to women because of choices made by the men.

Maybe the show will work it out. Breath holding, not.

 

edit: asking for clarification. 

Are you suggesting Penny - or "Penny like" behaviour -  harms other women. I did not understand that. I blame the predatory men, not so much the other women. Interested to know. 

Yes and not merely suggesting it: I only wish I were.  Of course the predatory men are primarily to blame. Secondarily,if not equally, to blame are the women who, like Penny, are willing prey. Without Pennys around the predators would all be behind bars or else behaving themselves. I didn't mention dating: I  thought the conversation was about places where women get harassed and worse.  Penny set out to be flirtatious even with stangers. Whom she dated was nobody else's business unless it was their wives'.

Women who do not want to be prey are secondary victims of those do. Innocent women, if they complain, get blamed and labelled and libelled as Pennys by bad men who seek to defend themseves when caught. If there were no Pennys, that defence whether true or false wouldn't be available. Of course, if there were no predatory men, then temptresses, bimbos, slags and sluts, or even less polite terms, could be as blatant as they liked and nothing would happen. I've been in workplaces where all the men were decent, gentlemanly types and an eye-batterer could have cartwheeled in, naked and singing I've Got a Lovely Bunch of Coconuts and they'd have asked her whether she'd finished typing up the memos. I've also been in places where a girl or woman couldn't go past certain men's desks even without getting a lewd remark or 'accidental' touch. If those men are in any sort of authority some women of the type I've mentioned do collude with that behaviour.

 Penny deserved derision at one time but we've not known her flaunt herself for gain for about two years now. It will take Sheldon longer than that to stop mentioning it. He never suffered from it himself, but that won't stop him for some time yet. Actually, since Penny was more boastful than ashamed, I don't think she minded anyway. Her recent negative reaction was the first I can recall. They're all taking less nonsense from Sheldon than they used to. He's engaged now, claiming to be an adult. He'll be somebody's husband and potential father. That makes him a real boy and the old excuses of innocence and unawareness are gone.

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Sheldon has no excuse anymore. This whole "He is clueless" IS a passe notion. But I just find it funny the some who try to defend Sheldon's actions and behaviour this episode gone. When Bitcoin had nothing to do with him. So the guys did not leave him out of it. He diddn't want to be part of it. Yet have no problem with few episodes back Sheldon going behind Leonard and Howards back, going to the Military. Now the shoes on the other end of the foot. The audience is suspose to feel sympathy for Sheldon. From what I have read online in various sections, social media e.t.c. What Sheldon did was Selfish and Asinine. That seems popular opinion. He took something that was not his in the first place. Then Deprived his friends of the value of it. Just to proove he is the smartest person in the room, essentially. IT Just feels some think because they shift focus to what the characters condone. For example Penny seems more boastful then ashamed of her promiscious past. Then that some how downplays Sheldon's actions and motives. IT does not.

Edited by 3ku11
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11 hours ago, chucky said:

Shelly isn't nasty, he's totally clueless. 

He uses his cluelessness to cover up nastiness. He's much less clueless than he was.  His friends are getting wise to this. They're not putting up with it any more.

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On 01/12/2017 at 2:07 AM, joyceraye said:

Women know as well as do men that temptresses and bimbos exist. Were it not for people like Penny as she used to be in her ' Dinner tonight is on these' days, decent women just trying to get on with their work would be in a less vulnerable position. 'But m'ludd, she was more than willing.'

If brought to account, the only defence a creepy man has is that he mistook her for a Penny.  Other women resent Pennys in the workplace as much as they fear and loathe sleazy predators. They are the Pennys' victims too.

I know it's not fashionable to point this out. The women in the industry who've been suffering over the years know who those Pennys are but I bet we won't hear them say so.

I think this may be a misinterpretation of Penny's original character. Her attitude to sex was innocent hedonism. She joked about being taken out to dinner, but she never used sex to get ahead, which was why she  hadn't got ahead - contrast Alicia. She didn't even get good tips at the Cheesecake Factory. She obviously enjoyed male attention, but we never saw her allowing men to take liberties, so far as I remember. A significant ep was the one with the fighting robots, where Howard pushed his luck with her and she verbally destroyed him. What was wrong was that the guys, including Leonard, then made her apologise. We've never seen P in a workplace situation where men are in a position to be sleazy predators. I think I get what you mean about women who play up to workplace sexism (is that what you mean?) but I don't think Penny is portrayed as one of them. I think it was made fairly clear that no-one would get Penny on the casting couch. She obviously thought that her beauty and charm were going to carry her to stardom, but so far as I could see she only expected to deploy them on-screen as an actress.

There is of course the episode where Penny proposed to flaunt herself to help Leonard get tenure, with some implication that she'd done that sort of thing before, But that was an isolated example.

Edited by JohnPhD
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1 hour ago, JohnPhD said:

I think this may be a misinterpretation of Penny's original character. Her attitude to sex was innocent hedonism. She joked about being taken out to dinner, but she never used sex to get ahead, which was why she  hadn't got ahead - contrast Alicia. She didn't even get good tips at the Cheesecake Factory. She obviously enjoyed male attention, but we never saw her allowing men to take liberties, so far as I remember. A significant ep was the one with the fighting robots, where Howard pushed his luck with her and she verbally destroyed him. What was wrong was that the guys, including Leonard, then made her apologise. We've never seen P in a workplace situation where men are in a position to be sleazy predators. I think I get what you mean about women who play up to workplace sexism (is that what you mean?) but I don't think Penny is portrayed as one of them. I think it was made fairly clear that no-one would get Penny on the casting couch. She obviously thought that her beauty and charm were going to carry her to stardom, but so far as I could see she only expected to deploy them on-screen as an actress.

There is of course the episode where Penny proposed to flaunt herself to help Leonard get tenure, with some implication that she'd done that sort of thing before, But that was an isolated example.

n_0100.gif.4cfb5afd9add183a0b2de69adb29bd89.gif

"Penny calls Zack, who reveals he still has the laptop, and after some really tired jokes about Penny’s past promiscuity (sorry, but it’s never gonna be a five-star episode with those kind of jokes) she and Leonard visit Zack and get the laptop back."

Taken from the latest Vulture recap I wholeheartedly agree with.
http://www.vulture.com/2017/12/the-big-bang-theory-recap-season-11-episode-9.html

Edited by veejay
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11.9 was probably not the best about continuity and not all the actors looked as they did 7 years ago, but for sure the set designers and the costumes department made a lot of efforts to bring us back to 2010. The episode kinda made me nostalgic...

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2 hours ago, JohnPhD said:

I think this may be a misinterpretation of Penny's original character. Her attitude to sex was innocent hedonism. She joked about being taken out to dinner, but she never used sex to get ahead, which was why she  hadn't got ahead - contrast Alicia. She didn't even get good tips at the Cheesecake Factory. She obviously enjoyed male attention, but we never saw her allowing men to take liberties, so far as I remember. A significant ep was the one with the fighting robots, where Howard pushed his luck with her and she verbally destroyed him. What was wrong was that the guys, including Leonard, then made her apologise. We've never seen P in a workplace situation where men are in a position to be sleazy predators. I think I get what you mean about women who play up to workplace sexism (is that what you mean?)  {Answer, yes it is.} but I don't think Penny is portrayed as one of them. I think it was made fairly clear that no-one would get Penny on the casting couch. She obviously thought that her beauty and charm were going to carry her to stardom, but so far as I could see she only expected to deploy them on-screen as an actress.

There is of course the episode where Penny proposed to flaunt herself to help Leonard get tenure, with some implication that she'd done that sort of thing before, But that was an isolated example.

Penny admitted flirting with doctors to get custom. We know she moved her engagement ring so they wouldn't know she was spoken for. She sent Leonard for psychiatric treatment because the doctor was a woman so she couldn't use her wiles. She even hinted the woman who lent her the weekend cabin had been led to expect something.

On the way to Vegas she told the other girls 'Dinner is on these' pointing to her breasts. When Sheldon asked her if she'd ever paid for a meal she said, 'Not with money.'

I'd like to think Penny's flaunting and flirting would stop short of the casting couch but I wouldn't guarantee it. The sad thing, to me, is that there are women who'd be prepared to jump on it, or the equivalent in other industries, which makes some men in powerful positions expect it from all females and then reject the ones who won't comply - or even try to force the non-compliant ones.

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8 minutes ago, joyceraye said:

Penny admitted flirting with doctors to get custom. We know she moved her engagement ring so they wouldn't know she was spoken for. She sent Leonard for psychiatric treatment because the doctor was a woman so she couldn't use her wiles. She even hinted the woman who lent her the weekend cabin had been led to expect something.

On the way to Vegas she told the other girls 'Dinner is on these' pointing to her breasts. When Sheldon asked her if she'd ever paid for a meal she said, 'Not with money.'

I'd like to think Penny's flaunting and flirting would stop short of the casting couch but I wouldn't guarantee it. The sad thing, to me, is that there are women who'd be prepared to jump on it, or the equivalent in other industries, which makes some men in powerful positions expect it from all females and then reject the ones who won't comply - or even try to force the non-compliant ones.

I would. :icon_neutral: Geeeez!!!

Do all the people on these forums have such a bad opinion of Penny? Just because she has options, doesn't make her Alicia. The sad fact is, Amy would use her wiles if they worked. She's no better, she just doesn't have that available. Amy mentioned many times that she tried things in the past, at college or whatever but no one took her up on it. All this nonsense about Amy being an innocent is all circumstamce. And as for the other bit about 'men in powerful positions' I'm not even going to go there!

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9 hours ago, BobtheBlob said:

Hang on let me get something straight. So people on here are saying that Sheldon is a complete asshat from "stealing" Bitcoin from the other three guys and y'all are taking out your anger out on him?

First of all yes Sheldon did something wrong, but at the time he didn't know Leonard lost the flash drive. But instead of bagging on Sheldon saying he shouldn't of done it in the first place rant rant rant, take this into consideration: Why didn't Leonard tell Sheldon he lost the flash drive? I mean in the early seasons they would share everything to each other, so that slipped Leonard's mind. However in not defending Sheldon either, why didn't he ask what Leonard was doing when he was practically flipping the apartment upside down looking for it?

Also the guys excluded Sheldon from mining the Bitcoin just because he wanted to do something legal like contact the IRS because of all the heavy tax Implications that would come with it in the future, and what the guys did was a stupid way to react. Also if you watch the last part of the episode carefully, you will see that Howard thought the prank was pretty well done and that he liked it.

And one thing I have noticed is that while some of you complain about Sheldon being an asshat and slut-shaming Penny (which Howard did at every waking moment before he met Bernadette, and to a much bigger degree than Sheldon has ever done), is that no one that I've seen has ever talked about how much of an asshat Bernadette is. She is bigger asshat than Sheldon hands down, but just because Sheldon is in the foreground more than her it seems to be more rubbed off onto him, when she is a much bigger offender than Sheldon ever was.

But just to finish on a better note, I think that Zack is the best side character in the show. He always makes me laugh every single time he is on.

 

 1. Why is Leonard supposed to tell Sheldon he lost his flash drive?!

2. They excluded him because they knew he might get them in trouble. Remember this is the guy who was arrested for his behavior in court and later also got them all in trouble with HR (in Leonard's case for no fault of his own but for Sheldon's twisted interpretation). Besides, that does not excuse his behavior in any way! And neither does Howard's opinion on it, whatever it is.

3. We had a long discussion about Howard harassing Penny about a month ago. 

4. While I'm not saying Benradette's behavior is great and ethical in any way, I cannot see how she is worse than Sheldon.

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17 minutes ago, bfm said:

WhileI do not find flirting an acceptable way of getting whatever there is to be gained, these should in no way be taken as permission to assault. 

Moreover, I believe you know that when sexual comments or actions are commited in a relationship with unequal power/authority these are considered assault regardless of the "weaker" side expression of her/his rejection. There is a presumption behind this rule - power has a binding effect, non refusal to powerful figures does not equal consent. 

4
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Some people do use flirting as an acceptable way to get something or achieve something in the workplace. It goes on everywhere. It all really depends on how and why your flirting and the intent of it. Nothing wrong with playful flirting between two consenting Co-Workers. 

By the way, I have never thought of Penny being the 'S' Word but it not surprises Penny would have flirted as a Pharmacist as long as it was not done in a sexual way. If she was flirting with men at the CCF while with Leonard that been different story 

Edited by MTBigBangTheoryFan

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2 minutes ago, MTBigBangTheoryFan said:

Some people do use flirting as an acceptable way to get something or achieve something in the workplace. It goes on everywhere. It all really depends on how and why your flirting and the intent of it. Nothing wrong with playful flirting between two consenting Co-Workers. 

By the way, I have never thought of Penny being the 'S' Word. 

I meant with costumers in the case of it being done in work but anyway that is just my personal opinion, I didn't say it was rare or illegal. My point was it should not be taken as acceptance for assault.

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Just now, bfm said:

I meant with costumers in the case of it being done in work but anyway that is just my personal opinion, I didn't say it was rare or illegal. My point was it should not be taken as acceptance for assault.

Well, I agree with you there. 

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8 hours ago, joyceraye said:
Penny admitted flirting with doctors to get custom. We know she moved her engagement ring so they wouldn't know she was spoken for. She sent Leonard for psychiatric treatment because the doctor was a woman so she couldn't use her wiles. She even hinted the woman who lent her the weekend cabin had been led to expect something. On the way to Vegas she told the other girls 'Dinner is on these' pointing to her breasts. When Sheldon asked her if she'd ever paid for a meal she said, 'Not with money.'

I'd like to think Penny's flaunting and flirting would stop short of the casting couch but I wouldn't guarantee it. The sad thing, to me, is that there are women who'd be prepared to jump on it, or the equivalent in other industries, which makes some men in powerful positions expect it from all females and then reject the ones who won't comply - or even try to force the non-compliant ones.

 

 

That thinking that it okay to Rape or Sexually Assault/Harass a Women just because she flirts wit you is what is wrong with our society and culture today.

 

It never under any circumstances acceptable to Rape or Sexually Assault a women. It not an invitation in any way because no one want to be treated that way

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

 

Edited by Tensor
Removed comments directed at another member.
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1 hour ago, joyceraye said:

Penny admitted flirting with doctors to get custom. We know she moved her engagement ring so they wouldn't know she was spoken for. She sent Leonard for psychiatric treatment because the doctor was a woman so she couldn't use her wiles. She even hinted the woman who lent her the weekend cabin had been led to expect something.

 

This is quite true. Wasn't that part of the reason she said she hated her job (to Leonard, at the Indigo Girls fan's cabin in the woods) in one of the apparently significant Lenny moments that was never followed up but just dropped to make room for Shamy stuff.

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Plot wise,Penny being a slut is old,but Sheldon is her friend and teasing between friends is never appropriate and polite :p Had she been really hurt by his remarks,wouldn't she talk to him?If he didn't stop even after a serious talk then he would be unforgivable imo

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4 hours ago, joyceraye said:

Penny admitted flirting with doctors to get custom. We know she moved her engagement ring so they wouldn't know she was spoken for. She sent Leonard for psychiatric treatment because the doctor was a woman so she couldn't use her wiles. She even hinted the woman who lent her the weekend cabin had been led to expect something.

On the way to Vegas she told the other girls 'Dinner is on these' pointing to her breasts. When Sheldon asked her if she'd ever paid for a meal she said, 'Not with money.'

I'd like to think Penny's flaunting and flirting would stop short of the casting couch but I wouldn't guarantee it. The sad thing, to me, is that there are women who'd be prepared to jump on it, or the equivalent in other industries, which makes some men in powerful positions expect it from all females and then reject the ones who won't comply - or even try to force the non-compliant ones.

I don't disagree with your post, but I don't think you will win this argument.

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Penny can be the most complex and deep character of all. We sometimes get glimpses of how she feels about her life, from when she was an intelligent girl who was too cool for school to the present, but it's never really followed thru. The writers can write it if they want to, KC can act it perfectly, but it's always dropped in favour of less-interesting storylines. P & L's dialogue often hints at it but somehow never gets to the heart of it.

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10 minutes ago, JohnPhD said:

Penny can be the most complex and deep character of all. We sometimes get glimpses of how she feels about her life, from when she was an intelligent girl who was too cool for school to the present, but it's never really followed thru. The writers can write it if they want to, KC can act it perfectly, but it's always dropped in favour of less-interesting storylines. P & L's dialogue often hints at it but somehow never gets to the heart of it.

I agree they could have explore Penny much further. There are two episodes where she is portrayed as kinda stupid which are the pilot (in which Sheldon is supposedly a master masturbator) and for some reason "The Proton Resurgence". Otherwise she is seems to have average intellectual skills and is clever and witty. Why did she failed so miserably at school? And why did she started having all kinds of adventures with boys at preschool? Could it be that she was taught at home that her role in life should be to get boys? I can see that. Did she learn as a kid that school is not supposed to fit that role? Maybe. What does she think about all of this in retrospect?  I assume some may bring up the college failure in season 6 but I think she didn't acquire good enough learning habits so the question is more about high school. She did and does manage to learn about the drugs she sells. 

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On 11/30/2017 at 12:09 PM, HeWolf said:

 

After some thought I have decided I have to amend my thoughts on the idea of Leonard breaking up with, (divorcing), Penny. I do think that if he were convinced that she was truly unhappy in the marriage that he might 'fall on his sword' and be the one to file for divorce. To my mind this would be in character for Leonard.

I believe otherwise. I think if Penny shot him with a gun, he'd make up some excuse for her and say "let's give it another chance".

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15 hours ago, BobtheBlob said:

And one thing I have noticed is that while some of you complain about Sheldon being an asshat and slut-shaming Penny (which Howard did at every waking moment before he met Bernadette, and to a much bigger degree than Sheldon has ever done), is that no one that I've seen has ever talked about how much of an asshat Bernadette is. She is bigger asshat than Sheldon hands down, but just because Sheldon is in the foreground more than her it seems to be more rubbed off onto him, when she is a much bigger offender than Sheldon ever was.

Because I called him an asshat doesn't mean I don't like him, to clarify. He is my favorite character and always has been. But I don't think he's perfect and does some things he probably shouldn't do.  I do think Bernie is a real brat sometimes. I totally agree with you on that, and as for Howard some of the stuff he said to and about his mother made me cringe, never mind the slut shaming. I used to like that in a way because to be totally honest, when the show started I thought Penny was slutty, dumb and had a drinking problem. It didn't  bother me that they were running with that. I just did not like her at all at first.

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