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[Spoilers] Season 11 Discussion Thread


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6 hours ago, djsurrey said:

The short answer could be ask Leonard. He really tried to help her with her self esteem from 1.01.

And what about when he does not.  You are selectively choosing when he helps her.

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That was my point. He was not proud of her performance in SA1. As you said before he was proud he had a hot girlfriend.

But you haven't show that.  All this is, and what I've been pointing out all along, is that this is your opinion.  And you have been selectively choosing points to get to that opinion.  You have to ascribe some ulterior motivation to Kevin Smith to get there.  And again, he could have very well been showing those one the boat that she was in a movie, separately from being hot.  

7 hours ago, djsurrey said:

Well my assertion had been that Kevin had called in more for extra air time than to get Penny in the movie.This had only come up because you stated something along the lines of Penny being good in SA2. It may be more to the point that she was not on some short list which she realized when she got to the waiting room for the audition. It is not like Kevin Smith had to have her in this movie because she was so good in SA2. She was one of a multitude and by the time she got through the table read she just left and was feeling better about her actual job.

And this proves that Penny wasn't good, how?   If all he was doing was to get more air time, he doesn't need to mention Penny, just talk with Wil.   

 

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The thing is the real issue was did Leonard think she acted well in SA1. My assertion was that he would have told her if he thought she had because giving Penny praise and building her up was something he often did especially in the early seasons

Note the bold.  He did this less in the later seasons, and  your assertion has been that he would have told her she was great in 10.06, over a year after she had finally decided to quit acting.   And you haven't explained that.  Why would he build her up, especially as he want her to keep her pharmaceutical job, rather than continue acting.  

 

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It is inconceivable to me that Leonard would have not told her she was great in that movie if he thought she was. 

So you invent ulterior motives(More air time) , rather than accept the simpler explanation that he simply liked the movie.     

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I would conclude then that when he was on the research boat in a half drunk party atmosphere and showed the movie to the crowd and pointed out she was his girlfriend it had more to do with him being smug with having a hot girlfriend than a girlfriend who happened to be great at acting. It seemed to me to have more to do with him than her. 

If that was the case, wouldn't he have said something along the lines of "see, I told you I have a hot girlfriend." 

If you accept made up motivations, and ignore other parts, then yeah, Which you are free to do, nothing wrong with it,  you could come up with this. You choose to accept the fanboys and SAMSMK director's opinion, and ascribe an ulterior motive to Kevin Smith's comments about the job Penny did in the movie.  But that doesn't eliminate other possibilities, by accepting what was on the show.  For example, I choose to accept Kevin Smith's comments as he liked the job she did in SAMSMK, and trust his judgement over Fanboys and a director who was soon out of the business and reduced to spinning a sign on the side of the road.   YMMV

It's like the North Sea Kiss.  We have no idea who started it, but we do know Leonard ended it.  How long did it go on, when did the chipped tooth happen (if it happened just as they started, then there wasn't even much of  a kiss).   Or, like Sheldon's kiss.   I'd say he participated in it (his lips were on her lips weren't they?).  And, while he didn't start it, he didn't end it, basically because she surprised him.  I don't think he didn't anything wrong, but others think he should have stopped it sooner.  What you decide to accept is based on your experiences, and what you choose to accept.   

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3 hours ago, Tensor said:

And this proves that Penny wasn't good, how?   If all he was doing was to get more air time, he doesn't need to mention Penny, just talk with Wil.  

Proves? 

I'm looking at the preponderance of evidence. At least I thought I was. 

Kevin seemed to be more interested in talking to Penny than Wil. That really proves nothing.

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14 minutes ago, djsurrey said:

Proves? 

I'm looking at the preponderance of evidence. At least I thought I was. 

Well preponderance of evidence would lead to proof.  But you aren't looking at evidence, you were looking at opinions of non-show business people, or provably not very good show business people over someone who has been successful in the business.  And to do that, you have to ascribed ulterior motives to Kevin Smith.

 Since you want evidence, what evidence, shows Kevin Smith calling in to get more air time, rather than to tell Penny she did a good job and offer her an audition?  

 

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Kevin seemed to be more interested in talking to Penny than Wil. That really proves nothing.

Actually it's evidence that Kevin thought she did a good job in the ape movie and he had something for her to audition for, rather than calling in to promote something (after all his new project was still in pre-production, not something that gets promoted.  And evidence is what you're looking for, right?  

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4 hours ago, Tensor said:

But you haven't show that.  All this is, and what I've been pointing out all along, is that this is your opinion.  And you have been selectively choosing points to get to that opinion.  You have to ascribe some ulterior motivation to Kevin Smith to get there.  And again, he could have very well been showing those one the boat that she was in a movie, separately from being hot.  

Actually though most of the discussion I was responding to counter points that I did not agree were strong counter points. 

I ascribe some ulterior motivation to the Kevin Smith Character because that is the way he came across to me. Schmoozing and not particularly serious.

He could have been showing those on the boat that she was in a movie but rather than hot but what is the evidence for that? The contrary evidence is much stronger!

  1. Penny was so embarrassed that she did not want anyone to know she was in the movie.
  2. Leonard never walked up to her and said I saw you in a movie and you were great. He knew about the movie from soon after she moved in. When she was down about acting in first seven seasons he never said I think you were great in that movie. It really looks like he avoided bringing it up and the most plausible reason in my opinion is that he did not think it a good idea to mention. He expected her to be embarrassed. 
  3. The only person who specifically mentioned her acting in the movies asked if she was trying to be bad.
  4. Even Kevin who said she was good in the movie did not say her acting was good.
  5. When the gang sees her in Streetcar Named Desire they are surprised at her good acting.
  6. In the filming of SA2 she wanted to do a retake because she thought should could do better the director did not give care and just wanted to move on. There was no attempt to bring out the best performance from her. 

 

 

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3 hours ago, Tensor said:

 Or, like Sheldon's kiss.   I'd say he participated in it (his lips were on her lips weren't they?).  And, while he didn't start it, he didn't end it, basically because she surprised him.  I don't think he didn't anything wrong, but others think he should have stopped it sooner.  What you decide to accept is based on your experiences, and what you choose to accept.   

I tend to prefer reading along to posting these days, but I can’t resist throwing in my thoughts on this.

Imagine if a colleague or client that Penny works with started mistaking her kindness for romantic flirtation, not unlike the Billy Bob Thornton character. And when Penny finally figures out that the guy has the wrong idea, she tells him right away that it isn’t going to happen and begins listing off the reasons: they do business together, she’s married, etc. Then imagine that the guy kisses her anyway, despite her clear, verbal lack of consent. Would you say that Penny was a ‘participant’ in such a kiss, even if she briefly froze in shock/horror before walking away? I wouldn’t. I'd say she was the victim of an unwanted advance. I certainly wouldn’t blame her if it took her a few seconds to figure out how to handle the situation without making things worse for herself!

That’s what happened to Sheldon. He was in the middle of listing off all of the reasons that he did not want any sort of romantic involvement with Ramona when she kissed him. I could not disagree more strongly with those who hold a position that Sheldon (or anyone) is responsible for a physical encounter being foisted upon them when that person has clearly stated their lack of consent.

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1 hour ago, djsurrey said:

Actually though most of the discussion I was responding to counter points that I did not agree were strong counter points. 

I didn't

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I ascribe some ulterior motivation to the Kevin Smith Character because that is the way he came across to me. Schmoozing and not particularly serious.

I don't see that.  He was not serious with Wil, he seemed serious with Penny.

 

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You could have been showing those on the boat that she was in a movie but rather than hot but what is the evidence for that? The contrary evidence is much stronger!

What evidence.  All he said was "That's my girlfriend, I swear to god."  

 

 

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  1. Penny was so embarrassed that she did not want anyone to know she was in the movie.  Leonard never walked up to her and said I saw you in a movie and you were great. He knew about the movie from soon after she moved in. When she was down about acting in first seven seasons he never said I think you were great in that movie. It really looks like he avoided bringing it up and the most plausible reason in my opinion is that he did not think it a good idea to mention. He expected her to be embarrassed. 

The most plausible reason in my opinion, is since she didn't mention it, why should he bring it up.  Because you think he should? 

 

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  1. The only person who specifically mentioned her acting in the movies asked if she was trying to be bad.

I don't know, it came across to me as if he was joking, so he really couldn't have been serious, right?  

 

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  1. Even Kevin who said she was good in the movie did not say her acting was good.

So, you think she can be good in the movie, without good acting?   I have never heard anyone say someone was good in a move, but their acting was terrible.  

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  1. When the gang sees her in Streetcar Named Desire they are surprised at her good acting.

And so?  What else had they seen her in?  The commercial?    I'd maintain that anyone doing well with a Tennessee Williams play IS a good actor, especially with Blanche.  

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  1. In the filming of SA2 she wanted to do a retake because she thought should could do better the director did not give care and just wanted to move on. There was no attempt to bring out the best performance from her. 

That doesn't mean her acting was terrible, just that the director didn't care and wanted to get it over with.  No wonder he ended up spinning a sign on the side of the road.  Now, could she have done better, who knows.  

1 hour ago, RJ1013 said:

I tend to prefer reading along to posting these days, but I can’t resist throwing in my thoughts on this.

Imagine if a colleague or client that Penny works with started mistaking her kindness for romantic flirtation, not unlike the Billy Bob Thornton character. And when Penny finally figures out that the guy has the wrong idea, she tells him right away that it isn’t going to happen and begins listing off the reasons: they do business together, she’s married, etc. Then imagine that the guy kisses her anyway, despite her clear, verbal lack of consent. Would you say that Penny was a ‘participant’ in such a kiss, even if she briefly froze in shock/horror before walking away? I wouldn’t. I'd say she was the victim of an unwanted advance. I certainly wouldn’t blame her if it took her a few seconds to figure out how to handle the situation without making things worse for herself!

That’s what happened to Sheldon. He was in the middle of listing off all of the reasons that he did not want any sort of romantic involvement with Ramona when she kissed him. I could not disagree more strongly with those who hold a position that Sheldon (or anyone) is responsible for a physical encounter being foisted upon them when that person has clearly stated their lack of consent.

Well that's what I said, isn't it?   Other have a differing view of it, but to me, he was just surprised/shocked and didn't know how to react.   That still doesn't mean he wasn't a participant in it, not a willing one I'll grant you, but still a participant.  

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28 minutes ago, djsurrey said:

Actually though most of the discussion I was responding to counter points that I did not agree were strong counter points. 

I ascribe some ulterior motivation to the Kevin Smith Character because that is the way he came across to me. Schmoozing and not particularly serious.

He could have been showing those on the boat that she was in a movie but rather than hot but what is the evidence for that? The contrary evidence is much stronger!

  1. Penny was so embarrassed that she did not want anyone to know she was in the movie.
  2. Leonard never walked up to her and said I saw you in a movie and you were great. He knew about the movie from soon after she moved in. When she was down about acting in first seven seasons he never said I think you were great in that movie. It really looks like he avoided bringing it up and the most plausible reason in my opinion is that he did not think it a good idea to mention. He expected her to be embarrassed. 
  3. The only person who specifically mentioned her acting in the movies asked if she was trying to be bad.
  4. Even Kevin who said she was good in the movie did not say her acting was good.
  5. When the gang sees her in Streetcar Named Desire they are surprised at her good acting.
  6. In the filming of SA2 she wanted to do a retake because she thought should could do better the director did not give care and just wanted to move on. There was no attempt to bring out the best performance from her. 

 

 

1. She was topless.

2. It would have made himself look like a stalker.

3. And what was his profession.

4. If she wasn't good on the movie why say it. I think he's seen topless woman before so I'm not sure why he would comment on that.

5. They had never seen her act. Just because she hasn't been seen acting doesn't make her a bad actor.

6. That guy was no Kevin Smith

24 minutes ago, RJ1013 said:

I tend to prefer reading along to posting these days, but I can’t resist throwing in my thoughts on this.

Imagine if a colleague or client that Penny works with started mistaking her kindness for romantic flirtation, not unlike the Billy Bob Thornton character. And when Penny finally figures out that the guy has the wrong idea, she tells him right away that it isn’t going to happen and begins listing off the reasons: they do business together, she’s married, etc. Then imagine that the guy kisses her anyway, despite her clear, verbal lack of consent. Would you say that Penny was a ‘participant’ in such a kiss, even if she briefly froze in shock/horror before walking away? I wouldn’t. I'd say she was the victim of an unwanted advance. I certainly wouldn’t blame her if it took her a few seconds to figure out how to handle the situation without making things worse for herself!

That’s what happened to Sheldon. He was in the middle of listing off all of the reasons that he did not want any sort of romantic involvement with Ramona when she kissed him. I could not disagree more strongly with those who hold a position that Sheldon (or anyone) is responsible for a physical encounter being foisted upon them when that person has clearly stated their lack of consent.

The problem with your Sheldon scenario is that it happened at the end of the episode. She was trying to be romantic the entire episode. It should of been stopped before that point. And in your scenario I would say Penny should of stopped it before a kiss.

With your scenario with Sheldon would you then excuse Leonard's behavior on the boat?

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On 12/17/2017 at 1:50 PM, djsurrey said:

I never read it that way. Leonard had plenty of time to say to Penny "great job on that film". He never told her he had seen it. My guess is that he would expect her to be embarrassed. I always thought it was a low move showing a little narcissism. If it really was a bad movie it was really just like sharing a pin up of his girlfriend.

I'd assume you thought she did a good job and that was the reason you were proud. I did not get the impression that anyone thought SA was something to be proud of.

 I thought it was quite  low and immature of Leonard. It made me cringe when I saw Penny’s sincere and regretful disclosure to Sheldon about the topless shower scene contrasted with Leonard’s bragging of the same scene to his co-workers. It looked tacky and insensitive, not romantic . It was meant for crude laughs from my pov. 

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1 hour ago, Tensor said:
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  1. Penny was so embarrassed that she did not want anyone to know she was in the movie.  Leonard never walked up to her and said I saw you in a movie and you were great. He knew about the movie from soon after she moved in. When she was down about acting in first seven seasons he never said I think you were great in that movie. It really looks like he avoided bringing it up and the most plausible reason in my opinion is that he did not think it a good idea to mention. He expected her to be embarrassed. 

The most plausible reason in my opinion, is since she didn't mention it, why should he bring it up.  Because you think he should? 

Remember we are six years into the series before this comes up. As I said it is inconceivable to me that it would not come up in all the discussions  Leonard and Penny had about acting unless he thought she had reason be embarrassed. Add the fact that she was in fact embarrassed about it and it looks like strong evidence to me she did not have a performance in that movie to be proud of.

 

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59 minutes ago, serena_1995 said:

 I thought it was quite  low and immature of Leonard. It made me cringe when I saw Penny’s sincere and regretful disclosure to Sheldon about the topless shower scene contrasted with Leonard’s bragging of the same scene to his co-workers. It looked tacky and insensitive, not romantic . It was meant for crude laughs from my pov. 

Not romantic? He was drunk on a ship thousand a miles away from shore. OF course it was not romantic. It was not meant to be :sarcastichand:. He was with a group of his peers. Watching a movie at who knows what time. Hot Chick. My Girlfriend!!! Yeahh boy!!! LOL. I grant you the combination of what Penny said, then contrasting Leonard. Does not make either party look good. But I personally thought it was harmless and funny. 

2 minutes ago, djsurrey said:

Remember we are six years into the series before this comes up. As I said it is inconceivable to me that it would not come up in all the discussions  Leonard and Penny had about acting unless he thought she had reason be embarrassed. Add the fact that she was in fact embarrassed about it and it looks like strong evidence to me she did not have a performance in that movie to be proud of.

 

That is my point Penny was embarrased by the movie. Then why exactly would Leonard tell Penny oh no honey your an amazing actor? What purpose does that serve? I agree Leonard through out the series has given Penny lifts. it is just my opinion I don't think in this case their is any purpose in giving Penny false hope. Leonard did the right thing was honest with her, and in the long term Leonard was the best in saving her alot of long term stress and heartache. Dreams are fine to a certain point. Penny had to grow up and get a real job. Now of course that job she actually got she hates, she even said so herself. Leonard could try to help her out their. But we have not heard about Penny's job since 10.02 When she visited Bernie at work. So who knows what is going on their. 

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27 minutes ago, 3ku11 said:

Then why exactly would Leonard tell Penny oh no honey your an amazing actor? What purpose does that set?

If she did a great performance in a movie it would give her a lift to say so. If her performance was not great or even bad he would avoid talking about it. All I meant to say was if he avoided talking about it I would expect it was because he did not think she could be proud of that performance.

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7 minutes ago, Stephen Hawking said:

He probably saw it back in episode 1.01

I don't understand your point.   He did see it back just after 1.01, but that's not what I said, note the bold:

After all, he was aware of SA, from Penny, back in season 7.

30 minutes ago, djsurrey said:

Remember we are six years into the series before this comes up. As I said it is inconceivable to me that it would not come up in all the discussions  Leonard and Penny had about acting unless he thought she had reason be embarrassed. Add the fact that she was in fact embarrassed about it and it looks like strong evidence to me she did not have a performance in that movie to be proud of.

It's not inconceivable to me.  I wouldn't mention it (as a matter of fact I haven't IRL), unless the person told or tells me themselves.   The question is also was she embarrassed about her acting or embarrassed about being topless.  The two are distinct.  

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I've been thinking about all this and my second wife explained to me one day how she looked at being a topless dancer she told me the first few days were embarrassing but one of other dancers commented that most of the guys would forget what she looked like in a couple hours and she realized she was right to me it honestly didn't bother me that much

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3 hours ago, Tensor said:
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You He could have been showing those on the boat that she was in a movie but rather than hot but what is the evidence for that? The contrary evidence is much stronger!

What evidence.  All he said was "That's my girlfriend, I swear to god."

He said it during the shower scene. He elicited a reaction from the crowd and looked smug about it.

The way Penny delivered the line in the scene looked to me like Kaley was doing a convincing portrayal of bad acting.

 

Edited by djsurrey

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2 minutes ago, djsurrey said:

He said it during the shower scene. He elicited a reaction from the crowd and looked smug about it.

I would look smug too, if people didn't believe my girlfriend was in a movie and I showed them she was.  

 

2 minutes ago, djsurrey said:

The way Penny delivered the line in the scene looked to me like she was doing a convincing portrayal of bad acting.

I'm still wondering how she can be, as you claim, such a bad actor here, but handle Tennessee Williams so well, and then, according to you be so bad in SAMSMK.  Either she's a good actress, or she's terrible. She can't be both and neither can she go back and forth.   

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4 minutes ago, legacy99 said:

Was this all to prove sheldon is flawless

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No, it's just point out that different people can see something differently.  

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7 minutes ago, Tensor said:

I'm still wondering how she can be, as you claim, such a bad actor here, but handle Tennessee Williams so well, and then, according to you be so bad in SAMSMK.  Either she's a good actress, or she's terrible. She can't be both and neither can she go back and forth.

Oh really? Is it not possible she could do a good job in a play she thought was good material and a bad job in a movie she thought was junk. Also, is it not possible she got better over the years particularly if she had little training at the start?

Edited by djsurrey
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1 hour ago, 3ku11 said:

Not romantic? He was drunk on a ship thousand a miles away from shore. OF course it was not romantic. It was not meant to be :sarcastichand:. He was with a group of his peers. Watching a movie at who knows what time. Hot Chick. My Girlfriend!!! Yeahh boy!!! LOL. I grant you the combination of what Penny said, then contrasting Leonard. Does not make either party look good. But I personally thought it was harmless and funny. 

I have never in my life been in a situation where one of my peers showed me pictures/film of their girlfriend in a shower.

15 minutes ago, Tensor said:

I would look smug too, if people didn't believe my girlfriend was in a movie and I showed them she was.  

Was that her only scene in the movie?  Was there nothing else he could have showed them?

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1 minute ago, djsurrey said:

Oh really? Is it not possible she could do a good job in a play she thought was good material and a bad job in a movie she thought was junk. 

 

Tennessee Williams is difficult material.    The nuance and inflection needed to perform that material would overwhelm a bad actor.   If she was a bad actor, she would be able to do a good job on Tennessee Williams.    You can, however, be a good actor, that has bad material hide that.   

1 minute ago, djsurrey said:

Also, is it not possible she got better over the years particularly if she had little training at the start?

Then how would you explain her, as you say, bad acting in SAMSMK, so soon after doing a good job in "Streetcar".   

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