[Spoilers] Season 11 Discussion Thread

[chucky]

6 minutes ago, legacy99 said:

If this,is so serious to you why aren't you criticizing sheldon for how he treats people

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4 minutes ago, hokie3457 said:

This is an interesting subject. Not sure if this thread is the place for it, but......The main male figures in the cast (Sheldon, Leonard, Howard and to some extent, Raj) spent their childhoods and young adult years being bullied and now as they are, in a way, popular in their small social circle, they in turn have taken to bulling each other...Not sure where to go with this, but again, an interesting subject that I would enjoy reading other thoughts regarding...

I don't see Leonard, Howard or Raj as bullies. They are mockers and haven't figured out the proper definitions of friends and friendship. Sheldon is a bully, but not in Bernadette's class of bullyism.

I messed up with the top part of this post. Just ignore it Legacy99

Edited April 19, 2018 by chucky

[Chrismo]

11 minutes ago, GivesAWhit said:

Oh dear, wouldn't it be terribly tedious to cite every example? The objective was simply to refute the statement that Penny had realised the error of her ways.

 

JMO but if we did cite every example Penny wouldn't be leading the seven.

[GivesAWhit]

2 minutes ago, hokie3457 said:

This is an interesting subject. Not sure if this thread is the place for it, but......The main male figures in the cast (Sheldon, Leonard, Howard and to some extent, Raj) spent their childhoods and young adult years being bullied and now as they are, in a way, popular in their small social circle, they in turn have taken to bulling each other...Not sure where to go with this, but again, an interesting subject that I would enjoy reading other thoughts regarding...

I am often incensed at the way they treat each other, and poor Stuart.  I was genuinely disgusted at the mockery they heaped on him in The Viewing Party Combustion.

1 minute ago, Chrismo said:

JMO but if we did cite every example Penny wouldn't be leading the seven.

No, I would bestow that honor first on Sheldon, closely followed by pre-Bernadette Howard.

[chucky]

2 minutes ago, GivesAWhit said:

I am often incensed at the way they treat each other, and poor Stuart.  I was genuinely disgusted at the mockery they heaped on him in The Viewing Party Combustion.

Stuart can dish it as much as receive it. That episode was a bit over the top.

[GivesAWhit]

15 minutes ago, legacy99 said:

If this,is so serious to you why aren't you criticizing sheldon for how he treats people

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Oh legacy99, my regrets! I just realised that as some of my posts have been hidden, you may not have gotten to see my remarks regarding Sheldon. I can assure you that while I understand some of his behaviour, I did not and do not excuse any outright, intentional unkindness on his part.

[April]

12 minutes ago, hokie3457 said:

This is an interesting subject. Not sure if this thread is the place for it, but......The main male figures in the cast (Sheldon, Leonard, Howard and to some extent, Raj) spent their childhoods and young adult years being bullied and now as they are, in a way, popular in their small social circle, they in turn have taken to bulling each other...Not sure where to go with this, but again, an interesting subject that I would enjoy reading other thoughts regarding...

It's been a while but some time ago I've read an interesting think piece (which I sadly can't find anymore) about how bullying leads to cycles of abusive behaviour if it goes unchecked and the result is that people who have been victims of bullying often just have learned to punch down and it's so ingrained in their behaviour that they don't even notice it. You'd think they would have gained enough empathy to know better but it's not automatically the case, especially if they're part of a privileged group in society. Like, for example, male nerds being aggressive towards female nerds even though as nerds both groups have been outcasts in school and like the same things. You'd think they'd be happy like "omg, perfect opportunity for new friendships/dates!" but nope. (Obviously, not everyone is like this but it's not a rare occurrence either.)

[GivesAWhit]

 

14 minutes ago, April said:

It's been a while but some time ago I've read an interesting think piece (which I sadly can't find anymore) about how bullying leads to cycles of abusive behaviour if it goes unchecked and the result is that people who have been victims of bullying often just have learned to punch down and it's so ingrained in their behaviour that they don't even notice it. You'd think they would have gained enough empathy to know better but it's not automatically the case, especially if they're part of a privileged group in society. Like, for example, male nerds being aggressive towards female nerds even though as nerds both groups have been outcasts in school and like the same things. You'd think they'd be happy like "omg, perfect opportunity for new friendships/dates!" but nope. (Obviously, not everyone is like this but it's not a rare occurrence either.)

Hahaha! I believe I have read the same piece and I was just now doing a search for it! Yes, it is apparently quite common for children who are bullied at school or abused at home to exhibit the very same behaviour in later life.

This is why I have great respect for the Leonard character; by rights, he could have turned out to be a fiendishly cruel and unpleasant person.

Edited April 19, 2018 by Tripper

[chucky]

28 minutes ago, GivesAWhit said:

This is why I have great respect for the Leonard character; by rights, he could have turned out to be a fiendishly cruel and unpleasant person.

The problem Leonard had over the other guys is simple "Beverly". As all four of the guys were bullied in school, Leonard is the only one to come home and basically be bullied by Beverly, his  own mother.

Mary doted on Sheldon and Howard's mom babied him. Raj, I don't know about his parents. From what I've seen they loved him and he always had the servants. 

Edited April 19, 2018 by chucky

[GivesAWhit]

1 minute ago, chucky said:

The problem Leonard had over the other guys is simple "Beverly". As all four of the guys were bullied in school, Leonard is the only one to come home and basically be bullied by Beverly, his  own mother.

What is interesting is that Leonard has duplicated that childhood dynamic in his adult life. The two most important people to him are Penny and Sheldon - both of whom are demanding, dismissive, domineering, entitled, unsupportive and condescending. 

As unpleasant as that sort of atmosphere might be, it is what he knows. It is therefore his uncomfortable comfort zone. This is one reason I was so taken with Alex. She represented the possibility of a completely different relationship - supportive, loving, normal. My dream episode would be Leonard finding Alex again, and making a go of it with her. Oh well...

[chucky]

7 hours ago, chucky said:

My favorite part was  when penny said that one woman called her a b b b b b bitch. LMAO on that one. 

This is when Penny was calling people she bullied back in school. One of the bullied girls had a bad stutter, thus she called Penny a b ,b ,b,b, bitch.

Edited April 19, 2018 by chucky

[bfm]

16 minutes ago, GivesAWhit said:

What is interesting is that Leonard has duplicated that childhood dynamic in his adult life. The two most important people to him are Penny and Sheldon - both of whom are demanding, dismissive, domineering, entitled, unsupportive and condescending. 

As unpleasant as that sort of atmosphere might be, it is what he knows. It is therefore his uncomfortable comfort zone. This is one reason I was so taken with Alex. She represented the possibility of a completely different relationship - supportive, loving, normal. My dream episode would be Leonard finding Alex again, and making a go of it with her. Oh well...

I agree to a point. What Leonard has with Sheldon and with Penny could be considered repetition compulsion, that is when one repeats a dynamic that was overwhelming to him/her. Now with Sheldon and also Beverly herself the same abuse is repeated.

With Penny I don't think it's the case. Yes, Penny is sometimes mean to him and had rejected him thus (unwillingly) breaking his heart. However, she does truly love him and has shown him her love. She could've shown more and not hurt him but here enter her own issues, that doesn't mean she doesn't love him enough. Actually given her own issues Leonard is suitable for her, as he wouldn't give up on her when she draws away like others might do. So while not perfect, I think his relationship with Penny is a corrective experience for Leonard.

And yes, as a kid Penny had bullied kids at school. As an adult she knows this is not okay but does not 100% regret it. This is bad. However, I think the examples of her showing care and compassion for others, including her friends who are very different than her, far outweigh the instances when she shows lack of empathy and bullying behavior.

[hokie3457]

3 minutes ago, bfm said:

I agree to a point. What Leonard has with Sheldon and with Penny could be considered repetition compulsion, that is when one repeats a dynamic that was overwhelming to him/her. Now with Sheldon and also Beverly herself the same abuse is repeated.

With Penny I don't think it's the case. Yes, Penny is sometimes mean to him and had rejected him thus (unwillingly) breaking his heart. However, she does truly love him and has shown him her love. She could've shown more and not hurt him but here enter her own issues, that doesn't mean she doesn't love him enough. Actually given her own issues Leonard is suitable for her, as he wouldn't give up on her when she draws away like others might do. So while not perfect, I think his relationship with Penny is a corrective experience for Leonard.

And yes, as a kid Penny had bullied kids at school. As an adult she knows this is not okay but does not 100% regret it. This is bad. However, I think the examples of her showing care and compassion for others, including her friends who are very different than her, far outweigh the instances when she shows lack of empathy and bullying behavior.

Thank you.

[Chrismo]

11 minutes ago, bfm said:

I agree to a point. What Leonard has with Sheldon and with Penny could be considered repetition compulsion, that is when one repeats a dynamic that was overwhelming to him/her. Now with Sheldon and also Beverly herself the same abuse is repeated.

With Penny I don't think it's the case. Yes, Penny is sometimes mean to him and had rejected him thus (unwillingly) breaking his heart. However, she does truly love him and has shown him her love. She could've shown more and not hurt him but here enter her own issues, that doesn't mean she doesn't love him enough. Actually given her own issues Leonard is suitable for her, as he wouldn't give up on her when she draws away like others might do. So while not perfect, I think his relationship with Penny is a corrective experience for Leonard.

And yes, as a kid Penny had bullied kids at school. As an adult she knows this is not okay but does not 100% regret it. This is bad. However, I think the examples of her showing care and compassion for others, including her friends who are very different than her, far outweigh the instances when she shows lack of empathy and bullying behavior.

Leonard explained in Spaghetti Catalyst to Raj that Penny was "beautiful and kind and sexy and funny". I don't think he has that same description for his mother.

[veejay]

42 minutes ago, GivesAWhit said:

../       This is one reason I was so taken with Alex. She represented the possibility of a completely different relationship - supportive, loving, normal. My dream episode would be Leonard finding Alex again, and making a go of it with her. Oh well...

Well, you couldn't learn that much about Alex's personality in her few appearances in the series. Also I don't necessarily consider her rigorous flirtation with Leonard is based on moral integrity.
But I'm not the guardian of morality.

[chucky]

1 minute ago, Chrismo said:

Leonard explained in Spaghetti Catalyst to Raj that Penny was "beautiful and kind and sexy and funny". I don't think he has that same description for his mother.

I'm thinking he feels Beverly is the female version of Sheldon.

[GivesAWhit]

10 minutes ago, bfm said:

I agree to a point. What Leonard has with Sheldon and with Penny could be considered repetition compulsion, that is when one repeats a dynamic that was overwhelming to him/her. Now with Sheldon and also Beverly herself the same abuse is repeated.

With Penny I don't think it's the case. Yes, Penny is sometimes mean to him and had rejected him thus (unwillingly) breaking his heart. However, she does truly love him and has shown him her love. She could've shown more and not hurt him but here enter her own issues, that doesn't mean she doesn't love him enough. Actually given her own issues Leonard is suitable for her, as he wouldn't give up on her when she draws away like others might do. So while not perfect, I think his relationship with Penny is a corrective experience for Leonard.

And yes, as a kid Penny had bullied kids at school. As an adult she knows this is not okay but does not 100% regret it. This is bad. However, I think the examples of her showing care and compassion for others, including her friends who are very different than her, far outweigh the instances when she shows lack of empathy and bullying behavior.

I agree that Penny's treatment of Leonard, like Sheldon's, is rooted in her own experience and issues. At times unforgivable, but nearly always explainable. She has gradually come to accept that her dream man is not what she expected, but is quite right for her - her bran muffin. LOL!

Another interesting thing is that Leonard has a very nurturing personality. He did not have the opportunity to express this before, but now he is "parent" in a sense to the two people he loves most. So his tolerance of their bad behaviour is IMO two-fold: He is accustomed to the treatment  which mirrors Beverly's treatment of him, yet he is forgiving as a father who understands the failings of his "children". 

This responsibility actually builds his confidence, because both Penny and Sheldon would be infinitely worse off without him.

[chucky]

2 minutes ago, veejay said:

Well, you couldn't learn that much about Alex's personality in her few appearances in the series. Also I don't necessarily consider her rigorous flirtation with Leonard is based on moral integrity.
But I'm not the guardian of morality.

We know nothing of Alex except she's young, beautiful and had a crush on Leonard. Also she has no problem hitting on Leonard, knowing full well he had a girlfriend.

[GivesAWhit]

4 minutes ago, veejay said:

Well, you couldn't learn that much about Alex's personality in her few appearances in the series. Also I don't necessarily consider her rigorous flirtation with Leonard is based on moral integrity.
But I'm not the guardian of morality.

She was definitely ill-advised to pursue a man who was "taken", but honestly veejay, do you really think that Leonard - Leonard - inspired nothing but lust in her!? No, she apparently found him cute, funny and something of a science rock star. They had similar interests, and remember she, like Leonard, also came from a well-known, high-achieving, scientific family. That alone would serve as a basis to understanding and addressing his insecurities and complexes.

I think she would have been an attractive, appropriate and very suitable match for him. 

6 minutes ago, chucky said:

We know nothing of Alex except she's young, beautiful and had a crush on Leonard. Also she has no problem hitting on Leonard, knowing full well he had a girlfriend.

See my reply to veejay. We actually know a fair amount about Alex, aside from her social imprudence.

[chucky]

7 minutes ago, GivesAWhit said:

We actually know a fair amount about Alex, aside from her social imprudence.

We know absolutely nothing about her except what I said. Except she tolerated Sheldon as his assistant. For all we know she could be a serial killer. She wasn't involved in the show other than Sheldon's assistant. I'd like to know where you got that info on Alex from.

Edited April 19, 2018 by chucky

[GivesAWhit]

5 minutes ago, chucky said:

We know absolutely nothing about her except what I said. Except she tolerated Sheldon as his assistant. For all we know she could be a serial killer. She wasn't involved in the show other than Sheldon's assistant. I'd like to know where you got that info on Alex from.

From the dialog and actions of the character as depicted in the episodes in which she appeared.

[veejay]

17 minutes ago, GivesAWhit said:

She was definitely ill-advised to pursue a man who was "taken", but honestly veejay, do you really think that Leonard - Leonard - inspired nothing but lust in her!? No, she apparently found him cute, funny and something of a science rock star. They had similar interests, and remember she, like Leonard, also came from a well-known, high-achieving, scientific family. That alone would serve as a basis to understanding and addressing his insecurities and complexes.

I think she would have been an attractive, appropriate and very suitable match for him.

Oh, I can share your point of view. But I am rather reluctant to make deeper psychological judgements about sitcom characters.

[chucky]

3 minutes ago, GivesAWhit said:

From the dialog and actions of the character as depicted in the episodes in which she appeared.

Wow, I saw nothing there except her crush on Leonard. She wasn't in that many episodes, maybe 5 episodes?

[GivesAWhit]

1 minute ago, veejay said:

Oh, I can share your point of view. But I am rather reluctant to make deeper psychological judgements about sitcom characters.

LOL! Best laugh of the day, well played sir! 

[veejay]

In memory of her true destiny.

[chucky]

Just now, veejay said:

In memory of her true destiny.

I admit, she's beautiful and I love her eyes.