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[Spoilers] Season 11 Discussion Thread

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24 minutes ago, GivesAWhit said:

While I agree that parenthood can work surprising changes, it isn't that transformative! I REALLY don't want yet another baby arc on TBBT, if the writers go in that direction I hope they won't portray Penny too negatively, just for the sake of comedy.

That is in fact my main issue with all the characters, especially with the portrayals of Penny, and OMG, Raj. They have loaded these characters with so many negatives, that I end up disliking them when I don't want to.

BTW, I want to reply to one of your earlier posts - it was a splendidly supported expression of your position. I agree with some parts of it, and have high regard for how you acquitted yourself. 

I think one of my favourite moments of the entire run is Amy shrieking "What the HELL, Sheldon!?" during their first living together discussion. Haaaa -haha!

But no, I feel sorriest for Leonard. Amy is compensated to a degree by what they have in common.  I so enjoy the made up language, fun with flags, the game at the aquarium during their break up,  their joint social experiments - so many odd little activities they invent are innovative and entertaining to me.

I don’t feel sorry for Amy.  She understands what Sheldon is and yet she stays.  If this wasn’t a comedy (and she can be very funny) I would hate Amy the enabler.  I don’t think she is cowed by Sheldon.  She needs to look the other way when Sheldon does his awful stuff to others (most of the time) or else there is no story.    I wanted to throw something at the tv when Amy walked away when Sheldon moved the creepy guy into 4a (where Penny -her best friend - was living).  When Sheldon is at his worst they need to have Amy working late or something.   If Amy wants to put up with sheldon so she can play with flags fine.  

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6 minutes ago, MsGreentea said:

I don’t feel sorry for Amy.  She understands what Sheldon is and yet she stays.  If this wasn’t a comedy (and she can be very funny) I would hate Amy the enabler.  I don’t think she is cowed by Sheldon.  She needs to look the other way when Sheldon does his awful stuff to others (most of the time) or else there is no story.    I wanted to throw something at the tv when Amy walked away when Sheldon moved the creepy guy into 4a (where Penny -her best friend - was living).  When Sheldon is at his worst they need to have Amy working late or something.   If Amy wants to put up with sheldon so she can play with flags fine.  

I don't feel particularly sorry for her either. To a great extent, she has found what she wants in a partner, and when they reconciled, she obviously made the conscious decision that despite his flaws, she would be happier with him than without him. Sometimes she will try to amend his behaviour towards her or others, sometimes she won't.

Unfortunately, thanks to the writers, the direction she takes is completely in the service of the comedy, not the story. 

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14 hours ago, chucky said:

 

I think that was suppose to be Protestant, which is a non-Catholic church.

I'm not Catholic but from what I've heard, RCs don't believe in fornication either.  No religion I've heard of does. They make no distinctions between the behaviours of males and females, by the way, no double standards. If one interprets the scriptures a certain way, both the Pennys and Leonards of the world would be equally destined for Hellfire as long as they remained unrepentant.  Having said that,there was nothing in my A-level  R K syllabus about future American sitcoms and the values enacted therein. 

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23 hours ago, bfm said:

So if she weren't punished then she has to be punished years later when she's changed and hadn't done such things for years?

I guess the problem is we're just supposed to laugh at it as if it were just normal popular girls fun and you never hear what made this teenage girl to do all this stuff. Where were her parents when she was with that Luther guy? That is highly disturbing. What about warning her of being taken advantage of?

In the pilot, Penny emerges from the bathroom wearing nothing but a towel - in the apartment of two men she has known for less than an hour. My very first thought was about her total disregard for her personal safety, immediately followed by wondering if this was her usual behaviour.

Over the years, things like the Luther incident really did rock me back on my heels. I've heard of free-range parenting, but her father mentioned finding her "pee sticks", so they weren't unaware.  Didn't these people exercise ANY care or protection over their child? 

As for the issue of "punishment", she is now a grown woman; what would this "punishment" be, who would administer it? If it's to do with past behaviour, too late, damage is flipping done and the victim has passed out of her life.

I'm satisfied with moments like the Speckerman episode, when Amy and Bernadette call her out and make her aware of and take responsibility for the bullying. That's all one can reasonably expect when speaking of heinous behaviour - by Sheldon, Penny or anyone else. Call them out, establish that something is unacceptable, and make it clear not to do that again.

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In the pilot, Penny emerges from the bathroom wearing nothing but a towel - in the apartment of two men she has known for less than an hour. My very first thought was about her total disregard for her personal safety, immediately followed by wondering if this was her usual behaviour.
Over the years, things like the Luther incident really did rock me back on my heels. I've heard of free-range parenting, but her father mentioned finding her "pee sticks", so they weren't unaware.  Didn't these people exercise ANY care or protection over their child? 
As for the issue of "punishment", she is now a grown woman; what would this "punishment" be, who would administer it? If it's to do with past behaviour, too late, damage is flipping done and the victim has passed out of her life.
I'm satisfied with moments like the Speckerman episode, when Amy and Bernadette call her out and make her aware of and take responsibility for the bullying. That's all one can reasonably expect when speaking of heinous behaviour - by Sheldon, Penny or anyone else. Call them out, establish that something is unacceptable, and make it clear not to do that again.
I guess what you think is acceptable moral actions is different than mine but that's what makes the world go round

Sent from my SM-G930P using Tapatalk

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10 minutes ago, GivesAWhit said:

In the pilot, Penny emerges from the bathroom wearing nothing but a towel - in the apartment of two men she has known for less than an hour. My very first thought was about her total disregard for her personal safety, immediately followed by wondering if this was her usual behaviour.

Over the years, things like the Luther incident really did rock me back on my heels. I've heard of free-range parenting, but her father mentioned finding her "pee sticks", so they weren't unaware.  Didn't these people exercise ANY care or protection over their child? 

As for the issue of "punishment", she is now a grown woman; what would this "punishment" be, who would administer it? If it's to do with past behaviour, too late, damage is flipping done and the victim has passed out of her life.

I'm satisfied with moments like the Speckerman episode, when Amy and Bernadette call her out and make her aware of and take responsibility for the bullying. That's all one can reasonably expect when speaking of heinous behaviour - by Sheldon, Penny or anyone else. Call them out, establish that something is unacceptable, and make it clear not to do that again.

Well their son was/is a drug dealer so one has to wonder... Wyatt and Susan seem nice but it appears that they weren't great at supervision and education for safety. 

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21 hours ago, Kathy2611 said:

I actually think Penny is supposed to be seen this way.  Please hear me out first!!  In the original pilot, the female lead, Katie, is made to look like a drunken slut who’s a bit dark.  But it didn’t test positively.  Since this is a Chuck Lorre show, we should know by now, whatever Chuck wants, Chuck’s going to get.  He wanted the main female lead to be a girl who’s a little bit on the “easy / slutty” side with a bit of a drinking problem.  Katie was just too mean & “dark” for the test audience.  So he lightened her up a bit.  Penny is a lot like Katie but more nicer and likable.  But she is still seen as having a bit of a drinking problem and a bit, in Penny’s words, “popular.”  (In Amy & Bernie’s words, “easy & slutty”).  I don’t think all the comments are one liners or to be taken as just a joke.  I think it’s done to describe her.  This is just who she is (or was since she’s now married to Leonard) and everything that has been said by others and Penny herself are accurate and to be taken literally.  Some may say it makes her look bad and others don’t.  

Penny’s not my favorite character but she’s not my least favorite either.  No, I don’t like that some of the guys she slept with had girlfriends (and I don’t blame her at all when she didn’t know this) but on the few occasions she did....bad Penny.  (One of the reasons I think she forgave Leonard so quickly.  It was just kissing and Karma can be a cruel bitch).  But she also has a kind heart, she’s loyal to her friends and always has their back.  Yeah, she can be mean at times but she says it with a twinkle in her eyes and you know she doesn’t mean it in a cruel way.  Or her own insecurities are trying to rear their ugly head.

In the end, I think this is what Chuck wanted from the beginning and in order to get his show up and running, he had to compromise.  He still got the “easy / slutty / popular “ girl with a bit of a drinking problem (btw, notice how her drinking seems to be an issue usually when Leonard is NOT her boyfriend) but she’s a much “lighter,” nicer and more likable version.  

Excellent, balanced analysis! This gets at the heart of who Penny is - and why. I very much like that you factor in Chuck Lorre's customary misogynistic tendencies as a basis for Penny's less than stellar behaviour. Lorre strikes me as being a bit smarmy and not someone I'd want to include in my circle of friends.

I've always had the feeling that Penny is his revenge on an ex wife or girlfriend. The numerous, over-the-top negative qualities are completely unnecessary, unsavory and a real disservice to the viewers who want to like the character.

2 minutes ago, bfm said:

Well their son was/is a drug dealer so one has to wonder... Wyatt and Susan seem nice but it appears that they weren't great at supervision and education for safety. 

Yes I agree. None of the children seemed to have turned out particularly well.  I didn't care much for Susan, but I like Wyatt so very much. He acknowledges that Penny has always made bad romantic choices, and I thought it sweet and touching that he saw Leonard as the best thing that ever happened to her. 

Still, he doesn't seem to have been a very conscientious Dad. Then again, except for Dad Rostenkowski, every Dad on TBBT has been either absent or sub-par!

14 minutes ago, legacy99 said:

I guess what you think is acceptable moral actions is different than mine but that's what makes the world go round

Sent from my SM-G930P using Tapatalk
 

Just to be clear, you were not concerned that she'd just moved in and didn't know anything about Leonard and Sheldon, that they could even be dangerous? And a teen aged girl hooking up with a 34 year old man is not troubling?

Not objecting to your values mind you, just trying to get an accurate idea of what they are.

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1 hour ago, GivesAWhit said:

That is unfortunate, as so much focus is on them this series. I do feel for you.

I was so dreadfully put off by Penny's snarkiness the last few seasons, I nearly quit outright.

I'm not as enthusiastic about TBBT as I once was, but at least this year, Lenny are not constantly squabbling. Now THAT was a crashing bore to me. Bah.

THIS. Thank you.

Since S.11, I'm loving Penny again.  :)

So I just hate that they bring back the "push up bra" and "no bra" thing on the next episode, UGH.

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3 minutes ago, KripkeRules said:

THIS. Thank you.

Since S.11, I'm loving Penny again.  :)

So I just hate that they bring back the "push up bra" and "no bra" thing on the next episode, UGH.

I do hope they keep that sort of thing to a minimum. They are only just getting Penny back to a more enjoyable point, please don't run her into the gutter again.

Edited by GivesAWhit
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2 hours ago, legacy99 said:

The one character i feel sorry for is Amy i would think for the rest of her life she will be giving in to what sheldon wants if she doesn't sheldon will act like a baby till she does give in

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I think that Amy has plans to "Mary" him. Start treating him like Mary does, like she told her in the car ride.

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1 minute ago, BigBang15 said:

I think that Amy has plans to "Mary" him. Start treating him like Mary does, like she told her in the car ride.

Yeah, I definitely don't like the Sheldon as child or household pet trope. Well, okay, I laughed myself absolutely silly at Parson's hilarious physical comedy impersonation of a dog being left behind by Leonard. The two-step on the stairs, the suppressed whine, AHHHHAhahahaha!

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1 hour ago, GivesAWhit said:

In the pilot, Penny emerges from the bathroom wearing nothing but a towel - in the apartment of two men she has known for less than an hour. My very first thought was about her total disregard for her personal safety, immediately followed by wondering if this was her usual behaviour.

I'm guessing that this was a move from the writers to promote the new show with some naked skin on a good looking woman. 

 

1 hour ago, GivesAWhit said:

Over the years, things like the Luther incident really did rock me back on my heels. I've heard of free-range parenting, but her father mentioned finding her "pee sticks", so they weren't unaware.  Didn't these people exercise ANY care or protection over their child? 

After all this is a Sit-com, I wouldn't take all stories on the show too serious.

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1 minute ago, Lagernisse said:

I'm guessing that this was a move from the writers to promote the new show with some naked skin on a good looking woman. 

 

After all this is a Sit-com, I wouldn't take all stories on the show too serious.

Oh the flesh pot factor was definitely in ascendance, as it has been throughout the run.

I agree some things are meant as throw-away lines, but the Luther story was utterly tasteless and crass IMO. There was no need to make Penny look so cheap and lacking in judgment.

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1 minute ago, GivesAWhit said:

Oh the flesh pot factor was definitely in ascendance, as it has been throughout the run.

I agree some things are meant as throw-away lines, but the Luther story was utterly tasteless and crass IMO. There was no need to make Penny look so cheap and lacking in judgment.

Totally agree with you, the Luther story was just lazy written crap from the writers.

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21 minutes ago, Lagernisse said:

Totally agree with you, the Luther story was just lazy written crap from the writers.

The writers think that if they need a laugh, they make Penny tell something embarrassing about her sex life. That trip the girls took to Disneyland cones to mind.

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1 hour ago, GivesAWhit said:

Excellent, balanced analysis! This gets at the heart of who Penny is - and why. I very much like that you factor in Chuck Lorre's customary misogynistic tendencies as a basis for Penny's less than stellar behaviour. Lorre strikes me as being a bit smarmy and not someone I'd want to include in my circle of friends.

I've always had the feeling that Penny is his revenge on an ex wife or girlfriend. The numerous, over-the-top negative qualities are completely unnecessary, unsavory and a real disservice to the viewers who want to like the character.

Yes I agree. None of the children seemed to have turned out particularly well.  I didn't care much for Susan, but I like Wyatt so very much. He acknowledges that Penny has always made bad romantic choices, and I thought it sweet and touching that he saw Leonard as the best thing that ever happened to her. 

Still, he doesn't seem to have been a very conscientious Dad. Then again, except for Dad Rostenkowski, every Dad on TBBT has been either absent or sub-par!

Just to be clear, you were not concerned that she'd just moved in and didn't know anything about Leonard and Sheldon, that they could even be dangerous? And a teen aged girl hooking up with a 34 year old man is not troubling?

Not objecting to your values mind you, just trying to get an accurate idea of what they are.

I agree that crack about 34 yr old Luther was just so annoying to me, even to this day it really rankles me.  There was just no purpose in saying that, only for a cheap laugh. As far as Penny's parents go they seem to be a loving, caring family much like what Penny is actually like.  Yes, maybe they should have been more concerned about what Penny was doing but this is in rural Nebraska and I guess watching your teenage children was loosely practiced.  I am not trying to judge people who live in rural communities just my impression from TBBT story.

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Just now, chucky said:

The writers think that if they need a laugh, they make Penny tell something embarrassing about her sex life. That trip the girls took to Disneyland cones to mind.

Yes well that's becoming as tiresome as old socks. Agree about the Disney trip. They need to flesh out (no pun intended) Penny's character beyond "hard drinking tart and waspish wife".

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22 hours ago, Kathy2611 said:

In story telling, we are both shown AND told. Unfortunately, the BBT isn’t like Ed TV (loved that movie, btw) where we see every moment of their lives.  We only see literally 8 hours of their lives in 1 year.  We don’t get to “see” everything.  Sometimes we are told something happened.  Leonard and Penny almost drowned in the ocean having sex.  We didn’t see it but it happened because they mentioned it in one of the shows.  They broke a rocking chair at a B&B having sex.  We didn’t see it but it happened because they mentioned it in one of the shows.  Sheldon got his drivers license.  We didn’t see it but it happened because they mentioned it in one of the shows.  Howard’s dad walked out on his family when he was a kid.  We didn’t see it but it happened because they mentioned it in one of the shows.  Amy got locked in the closet by a bat shit crazy mom (can’t wait to meet her) when she was a kid.  We didn’t see it but it happened because they mentioned it in one of the shows.  See where I’m going with this.....Penny slept with quite a few guys in her past.  We didn’t see it but it happened because they mentioned it in one of the shows.

Now I will say she HAS matured and she has never strayed or cheated on Leonard while she’s been with him. For that I will stand and hardily applaud her for her LOYALTY.  But her past has been told.  By others in the group and by Penny herself.

LOL.....then she herself should keep her past to herself.

Agreed. And it isn’t just a past that was referred to (like a flashback to a negative pregnancy test in high school, or her Dad’s comments about the dumbasses she dated) but we also have Sheldon who tries calculating the number of men she had relations with based on HIS observations of guys he’s seen come and go.

Penny has matured over the years to be sure (as most of the others) but there’s no denying who she was.

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5 minutes ago, 2L344 said:

Agreed. And it isn’t just a past that was referred to (like a flashback to a negative pregnancy test in high school, or her Dad’s comments about the dumbasses she dated) but we also have Sheldon who tries calculating the number of men she had relations with based on HIS observations of guys he’s seen come and go.

Penny has matured over the years to be sure (as most of the others) but there’s no denying who she was.

Oh, I somehow missed Kathy2611's excellent post! Thank you, 2L344 for quoting it and bringing it to my attention.

Kathy, you're absolutely right - in a 18-22 minute sitcom, it is impossible to make the characters well rounded by what we see alone. Exposition is essential to our understanding of these people. It's up to the viewer to then choose what he finds credible or not. However, I'm mostly in the "you wrote it, you own it" camp. You throw an idea at the wall, it might just stick in the viewer's mind forever.

2L344, I agree - you are perhaps not who you used to be, but you are decidedly an amalgam of all your past "yous". IMO, whether they are on display or not, each iteration of yourself over the years makes you who you are now.

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2 hours ago, GivesAWhit said:

In the pilot, Penny emerges from the bathroom wearing nothing but a towel - in the apartment of two men she has known for less than an hour. My very first thought was about her total disregard for her personal safety, immediately followed by wondering if this was her usual behaviour.

I saw it as a setup for the interaction with Howard and Penny getting Leonard motivated to get her TV back (recall the towel drop).

 

 

Edited by djsurrey

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I really don't get this obsession with listing just all of penny's flaws and mistakes.

Why not go through and list all the characters flaws, after all there are seven main characters on the show not just one.

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Just now, djsurrey said:

I saw it as a setup for the interaction with Howard and Penny getting Lenard motivated to get her TV back (recall the towel drop).

 

 

That was my third reaction actually - I think this girl wants something, and is targeting Leonard now that she sees Sheldon as less vulnerable to her charms. I've experienced such attempts in real life, so I saw through the ploy. 

I was instantly put off the character when she sent poor, weedy Leonard into the lion's den, knowing full well that he would come back at best humiliated, at worst physically injured by her behemoth ex. It cost the character a considerable amount of good will in my book, for quite some time too.

11 minutes ago, Lagernisse said:

I really don't get this obsession with listing just all of penny's flaws and mistakes.

Why not go through and list all the characters flaws, after all there are seven main characters on the show not just one.

Well, for one, as Jonny noted upthread, Sheldon is regularly walloped on a daily basis here, so that character's pretty well covered, eh? :icon_wink:

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2 minutes ago, veejay said:

It seems to be a kind of obsession for some people. My tension doesn't increase until our Golden Boy is dissected.  :icon_cheesygrin:

Oho boy, compared to my Penny observations, if I ever got started ranting on the waste they've made of Raj, you'd all flee the forum. 

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3 hours ago, joyceraye said:

I'm not Catholic but from what I've heard, RCs don't believe in fornication either.  No religion I've heard of does. They make no distinctions between the behaviours of males and females, by the way, no double standards. If one interprets the scriptures a certain way, both the Pennys and Leonards of the world would be equally destined for Hellfire as long as they remained unrepentant.  Having said that,there was nothing in my A-level  R K syllabus about future American sitcoms and the values enacted therein. 

And so would Sheldon and Amy and Howard and Bernadette and Raj, as they have all engaged on what you define as fornication. I obviously disagree, but that's just a piece of additional information within the context of my answer to your post.

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Just now, Carlos said:

And so would Sheldon and Amy and Howard and Bernadette and Raj, as they have all engaged on what you define as fornication. I obviously disagree, but that's just a piece of additional information within the context of my answer to your post.

Man, the hot place is getting pretty crowded!

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