[Spoilers] Season 11 Discussion Thread

[bfm]

41 minutes ago, April said:

This quote is quite curious cause we already know there will be more babies thanks to Melissa's pregnancy being written in.

Exactly! I think their view is that Howardette babies are not a biggie, they might as well have triplets now and they would only be heard once in a while. With Lenny on the other hand they are very reluctant to go there. I can understand some of their considerations, but the result, IMO, is unrealistic for the characters.

Another thing is that he says they probably won't have a baby but will think what should be the next step in their relationship. It could be that this is just about the first episode and the resolution is "We're fine this way". If not I'm wondering what the next step would be if it isn't having a baby... They already renewed their vows... Penny's job is not a step in their relationship... The only thing I can think of is buying a house and I can't see them doing that before the series end or at least near it, that would move most of the gatherings to another set (I think one of the reasons of keeping them in 4A was that the gang would mostly go to their house...) and I don't see that happening... 

Edited September 23, 2017 by bfm
Merged

[Swedish Chef]

10 minutes ago, bfm said:

Exactly! I think their view is that Howardette babies are not a biggie, they might as well have triplets now and they would only be heard once in a while. With Lenny on the other hand they are very reluctant to go there. I can understand some of their considerations, but the result, IMO, is unrealistic for the characters.

Another thing is that he says they probably won't have a baby but will think what should be the next step in their relationship. It could be that this is just about the first episode and the resolution is "We're fine this way". If not I'm wondering what the next step would be if it isn't having a baby... They already renewed their vows... Penny's job is not a step in their relationship... The only thing I can think of is buying a house and I can't see them doing that before the series end or at least near it, that would move most of the gatherings to another set (I think one of the reasons of keeping them in 4A was that the gang would mostly go to their house...) and I don't see that happening... 

I'm expecting Lenny to be on kitchen island duty for the most of season 11 doin' nothing. 

Every couple on the show except Lenny are moving forward but with Lenny the writers seems completely stuck. 

Edited September 23, 2017 by Lagernisse

[bfm]

17 minutes ago, JE7 said:

Beverly is a child abuser period, paragraph, full stop.

If the abuse was physical would you still  find it funny? 

But because her abuse is ONLY emotional and psychological it's not despicable but instead humorous? 

Not to mention that she dosent just profit from her child abuse but makes a career of encouraging others to abuse their children as well.

No she isnt funny she is just a sick bitch who should have been bared from practicing psychology and sent to prison years ago

I definitely agree on Beverly being a dangerous person who has been doing horrible things but I am not vehemetely opposed to her character, I think what is missing is a clearer stance against her. It would have been easier to deal with her character, IMO, if the story was that she got her license suspended for good many years ago and is selling her books undercover. 

[April]

7 minutes ago, veejay said:

Well, "we" doesn't seem to me to be a measurable quantity in the area of spoilers.

I meant us spoiled folks here on the forum. We could make a head count. lol

5 minutes ago, bfm said:

Exactly! I think their view is that Howardette babies are not a biggie, they might as well have triplets now and they would only be heard once in a while. With Lenny on the other hand they are very reluctant to go there. I can understand some of their considerations, but the result, IMO, is unrealistic for the characters.

Another thing is that he says they probably won't have a baby but will think what should be the next step in their relationship. It could be that this is just about the first episode and the resolution is "We're fine this way". If not I'm wondering what the next step would be if it isn't having a baby... They already renewed their vows... Penny's job is not a step in their relationship... The only thing I can think of is buying a house and I can't see them doing that before the series end or at least near it, that would move most of the gatherings to another set (I think one of the reasons of keeping them in 4A was that the gang would mostly go to their house...) and I don't see that happening... 

I think the second Howardette pregnancy certainly has pushed the topic even more to the forefront for Lenny now, or at least that's what I take away from the spoilers we got so far. The thing with Lenny and babies is that they've never really pushed that angle with them. Heck, Shamy had more explicit "let's make a baby!" plots than Lenny. All that Lenny got was that one line from the pilot and one tag scene after the first Howardette pregnancy was announced, maybe that ill advised attempt to deflect from the boat kiss if you want. But now we have a few scenes within the first episodes where the topic is brought up again and while they are shooting the idea down it might just be a question of time that they slowly come around to it this season. We'll see.

[veejay]

12 minutes ago, April said:

I meant us spoiled folks here on the forum. We could make a head count. lol

...

I know what you meant. But the article I've quoted is certainly not only aimed at the heads present in this forum.

[April]

Just now, veejay said:

I know what you meant. But the article I've quoted is certainly not only aimed at the heads present in this forum.

I know.

[veejay]

21 hours ago, April said:

I know.

 

"We" know.

Edited September 24, 2017 by veejay

[bfm]

5 minutes ago, April said:

I meant us spoiled folks here on the forum. We could make a head count. lol

I think the second Howardette pregnancy certainly has pushed the topic even more to the forefront for Lenny now, or at least that's what I take away from the spoilers we got so far. The thing with Lenny and babies is that they've never really pushed that angle with them. Heck, Shamy had more explicit "let's make a baby!" plots than Lenny. All that Lenny got was that one line from the pilot and one tag scene after the first Howardette pregnancy was announced, maybe that ill advised attempt to deflect from the boat kiss if you want. But now we have a few scenes within the first episodes where the topic is brought up again and while they are shooting the idea down it might just be a question of time that they slowly come around to it this season. We'll see.

I think these scenes may be setting up for a season 12/finale pregnancy, which probably means no baby on more than one, two at best, episodes if at all. I was referring to having a baby for some time, like from the beginning of S12. 

I do not think the Shamy thing was more serious... You probably won't agree with me on this but to me it was more of another attempt on Sheldon's part to recreate his greatness. Yes Amy's greatness too which made it a tad more romantic but to me he was so obviously not ready for a baby and not really thinking about being a father. He got carried away with the excellent results their cells had. The Lenny talk in S9 was serious, Penny's answer was "Sure". While with Howardette it was more questionable with Lenny I think it was quite clear they will have children, even before they talked about it directly. Yes they didn't talk about when they would have children (because of they did than it would have been much harder for the writers to keep stalling them, they know this well) but they have been married for more than 2 years now and have been together living close by for more, have a perfectly fine apartment for one baby, are doing okay financially, Leonard is 37 and they have been parenting Sheldon since long before that parenting book. All of this makes me feel that realistically they would have start considering it at least a year ago...

[April]

Just now, bfm said:

I think these scenes may be setting up for a season 12/finale pregnancy, which probably means no baby on more than one, two at best, episodes if at all. I was referring to having a baby for some time, like from the beginning of S12. 

Oh yeah, I don't see a baby as such on screen either.

Just now, bfm said:

I do not think the Shamy thing was more serious... You probably won't agree with me on this but to me it was more of another attempt on Sheldon's part to recreate his greatness. Yes Amy's greatness too which made it a tad more romantic but to me he was so obviously not ready for a baby and not really thinking about being a father. He got carried away with the excellent results their cells had. The Lenny talk in S9 was serious, Penny's answer was "Sure". While with Howardette it was more questionable with Lenny I think it was quite clear they will have children, even before they talked about it directly. Yes they didn't talk about when they would have children (because of they did than it would have been much harder for the writers to keep stalling them, they know this well) but they have been married for more than 2 years now and have been together living close by for more, have a perfectly fine apartment for one baby, are doing okay financially, Leonard is 37 and they have been parenting Sheldon since long before that parenting book. All of this makes me feel that realistically they would have start considering it at least a year ago...

I said "explicit" not "serious". While Sheldon's fix ideas about making a baby in both 4x01 and 10x08 didn't come from a place you personally find mature enough to be the a good motivation to actually start a family (though, let's be real, people have kids for less serious reasons all the time and still manage) they were the driving force of the respective plots in those episodes. We haven't had a Lenny plot that was about, say, Leonard wanting to impregnate Penny, now did we? We didn't even have a Lenny plot where Leonard brought it up in the same serious fashion as Howard did several times with Bernie before they finally got there.

So bottom line is: We know Sheldon wants to procreate because genetics (and it's save to say now love as well). We know that Howard always wanted to be a dad to the point of it being a deal-breaker with Bernie and now he finally is one. With Leonard it's maybe the one line from the pilot but anything else is a lot more vague "maybe one day, we'll see". Maybe this season they'll finally get more explicit about it with Lenny, too, is what I meant.

[veejay]

My sincere hope: no more babies on the set. Regardless of Melissa’s (Bernie’s) current pregnancy (I have no idea at the moment how they want to handle this scenario at all), I don't see any further pregnancies, neither with Penny nor Amy.
I can imagine them at the end of the series (season 12?). Unless this comedy is completely transformed into a soap by the TPTB.

Side note: of course Lenny’s babies will be smart and beautiful anyway.

Edited September 23, 2017 by veejay

[mirs1]

1 minute ago, veejay said:

My sincere hope: no more babies on the set. Regardless of Melissa’s (Bernie’s) current pregnancy (I have no idea at the moment how they want to handle this scenario at all), I don't see any further pregnancies, neither with Penny nor Amy.
I can imagine them at the end of the series (season 12?). Unless this comedy is completely transformed into a soap by the TPTB.

I'll be happy with a lenny baby at the very end of the show, to acknowledge the ''smart and beatiful babies'' line in the pilot, but i'm not eager for a pregnancy plot for lenny and shamy either. Let's see, i'm sure howardette's  baby n. 2 plot was not really planned by the writers, they just thought (rightfully or wrongfully so) it would be easier and funnier than hiding melissa's baby bump for five months or so...

[veejay]

13 minutes ago, mirs1 said:

I'll be happy with a lenny baby at the very end of the show, to acknowledge the ''smart and beatiful babies'' line in the pilot, but i'm not eager for a pregnancy plot for lenny and shamy either. Let's see, i'm sure howardette's  baby n. 2 plot was not really planned by the writers, they just thought (rightfully or wrongfully so) it would be easier and funnier than hiding melissa's baby bump for five months or so...

I'm curious. But two screaming Debbies in the background will ruin our ears completely, don't you think?

[April]

10 minutes ago, mirs1 said:

I'll be happy with a lenny baby at the very end of the show, to acknowledge the ''smart and beatiful babies'' line in the pilot, but i'm not eager for a pregnancy plot for lenny and shamy either. Let's see, i'm sure howardette's  baby n. 2 plot was not really planned by the writers, they just thought (rightfully or wrongfully so) it would be easier and funnier than hiding melissa's baby bump for five months or so...

The only way I think there'll be Lenny babies earlier than towards the end of S12 is if Kaley gets pregnant in real life and they write it in much like Melissa's baby bump. If they can't be bothered to hide Bernie behind big objects they sure won't be eager to try that with Penny either cause she has so much more screen time and it will be even more difficult. Whether or Kaley is ready for babies in real life is a different story though, Idk how serious her relationship is at this point.

[mirs1]

4 minutes ago, veejay said:

I'm curious. But two screaming Debbies in the background will ruin our ears completely, don't you think?

I'd still prefer it to two real toddlers around the sets...and I think cast&crew would agree with me, LOL!

[Jonny]

I'm not keen to see more pregnancy storylines on the show, I'm not sure with limited time and ideas they can pull off vastly different storylines when it comes to pregnancy and children (real possibility you just repeat common themes if say Leonard and Penny or Shamy are expecting a child). I enjoyed the Howardette pregnancy storyline a lot, perhaps slightly enjoyed it less after the child was born because of realism.

No child being seen is actually a realism killer for me personally, I've seen plenty of TV shows and movies where the actual actor to child actor interaction does add a lot to what story you are trying to tell and you are never going to get that with the show. Like for example Howard or Bernadette may have a storyline to do with fatherhood/motherhood that would be so much more powerful and enjoyable to watch if you had a real child to interact with and tell that story. I think having no interaction like that DOES limit some storyline opportunities as well. It's like you have to take them at their word that a storyline is interesting and they have to sell it because you see no interaction. Now I fully understand why they chose not to if I don't necessarily think it helps.

I'm become more open to the idea of the time jump at the very end when we see them all with children, probably with some older children which are easier to do scenes with. Leonard can still deliver his line when he and Penny are sitting on a couch in their house watching their kids doing something science related and looking on proudly.

Edited September 23, 2017 by Jonny

[legacy99]

That quote made me facepalm. The one thing I can't truly stand on this show is portraying Sheldon as a child or storylines that reinforce that viewpoint.
If they believe that then that explains the child book storyline in the recent taping... 

I could have been worse Lenny could have given the book to Amy at the end of the episode

Sent from my SM-G930P using Tapatalk

[joyceraye]

12 hours ago, veejay said:

I'm curious. But two screaming Debbies in the background will ruin our ears completely, don't you think?

The little boy will be quiet because his sister will do all his yelling for him when he wants something. It happens a lot in real life with close-together children. Unfortunately, twins OTOH tend to yell at the same time.

[Kev0821]

1 hour ago, legacy99 said:

I could have been worse Lenny could have given the book to Amy at the end of the episode

Sent from my SM-G930P using Tapatalk
 

This story-line kind of reminds me of an old episode of 8 Simple Rules, entitled "By the Book." Paul (John Ritter) used a parenting book on Bridget and Kerry, and Rory let it slip to them what he was doing. Naturally, they used this to their advantage, and turned the tables on their dad. At this point, do we know if Sheldon finds out what they're doing to him? I can't remember... I'll have to go back and look at what was reported.

Edited September 24, 2017 by Kev0821

[April]

1 minute ago, Kev0821 said:

This story-line kind of reminds me of an old episode of 8 Simple Rules, entitled "By the Book." Paul (John Ritter) used a parenting book on Bridget and Kerry, and Rory let it slip to them what he was doing. Naturally, they used this to their advantage, and turned the tables on their dad. At this point, do we know if Sheldon finds out what they're doing to him? I can't remember... I'll have to go back and look at what was reported.

We know basically nothing concrete beyond one scene where Leonard catches Penny reading the book Bernie forgot, he asks her if she's pregnant and she shoots the idea down and claims she's reading it only cause it could be useful for dealing with Sheldon. We have no descriptions about any actual parenting tries or how they look like.

[Kev0821]

3 minutes ago, April said:

We know basically nothing concrete beyond one scene where Leonard catches Penny reading the book Bernie forgot, he asks her if she's pregnant and she shoots the idea down and claims she's reading it only cause it could be useful for dealing with Sheldon. We have no descriptions about any actual parenting tries or how they look like.

Thanks! I went back and read the report, too. I guess many assumed Lenny used the book on Sheldon, even though it doesn't say they do. The conversation just seemed to go in that direction.

[vonmar]

6 minutes ago, April said:

We know basically nothing concrete beyond one scene where Leonard catches Penny reading the book Bernie forgot, he asks her if she's pregnant and she shoots the idea down and claims she's reading it only cause it could be useful for dealing with Sheldon. We have no descriptions about any actual parenting tries or how they look like.

My mind keeps drifting back to the line "read that book we got you".

Lenny gives Sheldon a book about sex and now Penny gets her hands on a book about child raising left behind by Bernadette. 

[3ku11]

Sheldon Is kinda like a big baby though lol. Emotionally he has the intelligence of an infant. He's grown somewhat. But it's still cannon for me to do these storylines.  They always have. Hes a man child. 

I don't think the show should have anymore pregnancy storylines any time soon. For Lenny or Shamy I agree. 

I like the idea of Penny and Leonard reading the pregnancy book, and them giving them tips in how to manage Sheldon. That has comedy potential. After all it's a comedy. Not a soap opera right? . 

[April]

4 hours ago, Kev0821 said:

Thanks! I went back and read the report, too. I guess many assumed Lenny used the book on Sheldon, even though it doesn't say they do. The conversation just seemed to go in that direction.

The episode might go into that direction but so far there's just not enough information to support that. So Idk, I'll hold back judgement until we know more.

[bfm]

21 hours ago, April said:

Oh yeah, I don't see a baby as such on screen either.

I said "explicit" not "serious". While Sheldon's fix ideas about making a baby in both 4x01 and 10x08 didn't come from a place you personally find mature enough to be the a good motivation to actually start a family (though, let's be real, people have kids for less serious reasons all the time and still manage) they were the driving force of the respective plots in those episodes. We haven't had a Lenny plot that was about, say, Leonard wanting to impregnate Penny, now did we? We didn't even have a Lenny plot where Leonard brought it up in the same serious fashion as Howard did several times with Bernie before they finally got there.

So bottom line is: We know Sheldon wants to procreate because genetics (and it's save to say now love as well). We know that Howard always wanted to be a dad to the point of it being a deal-breaker with Bernie and now he finally is one. With Leonard it's maybe the one line from the pilot but anything else is a lot more vague "maybe one day, we'll see". Maybe this season they'll finally get more explicit about it with Lenny, too, is what I meant.

First I just have to say I think there is a different between "Sure" and "Maybe"... 

Second, I view the not starting to think about it concretely the same as not having a baby (at least prior to S12) in the sense that the reasons, IMO, are the same. I think the writers know that once they have them talking about it like that it will be much harder to turn down like Sheldon's quirk of the day or stall like with Howardette when it was a process for Bernie. I don't think they can drag this for a lot (maybe a little) over Penny's insecurities, they have used this card for seasons 3 to 7, that's more than enough.

As I said I see the problems with that but the price with dragging it is that things become unrealistic (like Lenny living with Sheldon for a year and spending only some nights together the year before). The writers pride themselves of writing about life, of letting their characters grow and change because that is life, but they are very selective about the changes they allow. 

[April]

1 hour ago, bfm said:

First I just have to say I think there is a different between "Sure" and "Maybe"... 

Second, I view the not starting to think about it concretely the same as not having a baby (at least prior to S12) in the sense that the reasons, IMO, are the same. I think the writers know that once they have them talking about it like that it will be much harder to turn down like Sheldon's quirk of the day or stall like with Howardette when it was a process for Bernie. I don't think they can drag this for a lot (maybe a little) over Penny's insecurities, they have used this card for seasons 3 to 7, that's more than enough.

As I said I see the problems with that but the price with dragging it is that things become unrealistic (like Lenny living with Sheldon for a year and spending only some nights together the year before). The writers pride themselves of writing about life, of letting their characters grow and change because that is life, but they are very selective about the changes they allow. 

I fear we're talking cross purposes here.

What my previous post was about was establishing character motivation (here: whether or not Lenny want a baby and when) cause that hasn't been done with Lenny so far in a proper storyline (as opposed to the other couples) and I was wondering if that would happen some time during this season.

What you seem to be worried about is the writers dragging things out and whether they could do that in a realistic way which... well, knowing this show you better buckle up for unrealistic dragging. lol

But whatever, let's entertain the idea of realism to give Lenny a two year journey to a baby for the S12 finale just for shits and giggles:

1) Establishing character motivation: Lenny are sporadically being confronted with the baby idea thanks to Howardette's second pregnancy and over the course of, say, the first half of S11 they come to the conclusion that they want a baby, too.

2) Baby making: The next step then would actually be conceiving which can realistically take quite a bit even for perfectly healthy couples. Like, statistically there's only a 30% chance in any given month so they could just be out of luck for a while. But since Penny had a ton of pregnancy scares in her life but never actually gotten pregnant there could also be an underlying medical issue that just makes it more difficult for her to get pregnant. Doesn't need to be anything super dramatic. Thyroid issues, for example, can affect fertility and are easily treatable these days. Either way it could take them to the season finale or beginning of the next season to actually have a positive test on their hands.

3) Pregnancy: This can easily go on until the end of S12 and there wouldn't be a baby on set until the very end of the show (assuming that is the end of course).

And there you go. Realism and dragging things out are not mutually exclusive. Sometimes things just take time. So that isn't my worry at all with a Lenny baby storyline. The most important part for me is step 1) cause as much as people are claiming Lenny sure would want a baby I just don't see the enthusiasm for that from them, yet. Again, maybe some time this season they'll finally get to that point.