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5 hours ago, chucky said:

As did I. The show went from a ensemble show to the Shamy Show.

I agree with both of you wholeheartedly.  Awhile ago I did a little research on the episodes in seasons 11 & 12

I found that Shamy/Sheldon appeared as the central story in 27 out of 48 episodes  Lenny appeared in 13 and the balance were with Raj, Howard & Bernadette or an ensemble episode  Paintball, D&D  This was a total imbalance and a look into how the writers leaned to what they wrote

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If season 12 really is going to be the last season, what would you like to see from Lenny that we haven’t seen yet (or in Lenny’s case, again).  I’ll edit this to keep adding to the list so we can se

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Thanks for starting this list Kathy! Here are my wishes: 1. I'd love to see Penny show interest in Leonard's work like she did in Holographic. And it'd be awesome if she could help him out with s

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2 minutes ago, Mario D. said:

I agree with both of you wholeheartedly.  Awhile ago I did a little research on the episodes in seasons 11 & 12

I found that Shamy/Sheldon appeared as the central story in 27 out of 48 episodes  Lenny appeared in 13 and the balance were with Raj, Howard & Bernadette or an ensemble episode  Paintball, D&D  This was a total imbalance and a look into how the writers leaned to what they wrote

I was thinking it was a larger number for Shamy. Season 11 was their wedding planning and 12 was their Nobel chase.

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While I wasn't happy with episode 3, in season 12,  I have to point out that Penny did not initially say she didn't want kids, to either Leonard or Bernadette.  

In Leonard's case, she said, "What I meant was, what if, what if we didn’t have kids?  and "I mean our life is so great.  Why would we want to change that?   Instead of having that conversation, Leonard got angry and left.  

For Bernadette, Penny said, " You know, I’ve been thinking lately, that maybe I don’t want kids."  and later "...why is it crazy, to say I might not want kids?" At that point Bernadette became condescending, and Penny,  reacting the way she usually acts when she was pushed, got angry and cut off the discussion.  

So, there was no discussion, in either case,  of why Penny felt that way, nor when Leonard came back, did he bring it up for discussion, he just assumed she didn't want them.  

As for the sperm donation plot, I thought it was necessary, if for no other reason than to show Penny thinking about having kids.  We didn't see her thinking in episode three, and the two donation episodes showed she might be more confused and uncertain about the whole having kids thing, rather than just being against it.   

I may have a different thought about it, having gone through them several times recently (for the time and transcript projects).  Just pointing out while she mentions (in episode 12) the time she told Leonard she didn't want them,  Penny never actually says she doesn't want kids, on camera, in any episode.  See how they can fool you into thinking she did?

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30 minutes ago, chucky said:

I was thinking it was a larger number for Shamy. Season 11 was their wedding planning and 12 was their Nobel chase.

There were several episodes in season 11 and 12 that while there were Shamy plots, there was a lot of Lenny and Leonard in them.  Off the top of my head,  The Laureate Accumulation where Leonard and Penny try to get Caltech Laureates to come to the reception, and The Plagiarism Schism, where Leonard get the good on Campbell and Pemberton come to mind.  

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1 minute ago, Tensor said:

There were several episodes in season 11 and 12 that while there were Shamy plots, there was a lot of Lenny and Leonard in them.  Off the top of my head,  The Laureate Accumulation where Leonard and Penny try to get Caltech Laureates to come to the reception, and The Plagiarism Schism, where Leonard get the good on Campbell and Pemberton come to mind.  

Yeah, it just seems like there was more Shamy. But, you're right.

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11 minutes ago, chucky said:

Yeah, it just seems like there was more Shamy. But, you're right.

I have to finish adding everything up, and do the final checks on the screen time project,  but  Season 12 has the smallest time difference between Sheldon and Leonard, since season 2.  It was 9 minutes in season 2, and 11 minutes in season 12.  In season 10, the difference was  54 minutes.

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9 hours ago, Tensor said:

While I wasn't happy with episode 3, in season 12,  I have to point out that Penny did not initially say she didn't want kids, to either Leonard or Bernadette.  

In Leonard's case, she said, "What I meant was, what if, what if we didn’t have kids?  and "I mean our life is so great.  Why would we want to change that?   Instead of having that conversation, Leonard got angry and left.  

For Bernadette, Penny said, " You know, I’ve been thinking lately, that maybe I don’t want kids."  and later "...why is it crazy, to say I might not want kids?" At that point Bernadette became condescending, and Penny,  reacting the way she usually acts when she was pushed, got angry and cut off the discussion.  

So, there was no discussion, in either case,  of why Penny felt that way, nor when Leonard came back, did he bring it up for discussion, he just assumed she didn't want them.  

As for the sperm donation plot, I thought it was necessary, if for no other reason than to show Penny thinking about having kids.  We didn't see her thinking in episode three, and the two donation episodes showed she might be more confused and uncertain about the whole having kids thing, rather than just being against it.   

I may have a different thought about it, having gone through them several times recently (for the time and transcript projects).  Just pointing out while she mentions (in episode 12) the time she told Leonard she didn't want them,  Penny never actually says she doesn't want kids, on camera, in any episode.  See how they can fool you into thinking she did?

Good analysis and in episode 15 where Leonard tells Penny he does not want to donate to Zack and Marisa I thought it would have been the perfect time for them to  at least discuss trying to have a baby, especially after their compelling hug. But the writers chose to ignore that scenario

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40 minutes ago, Mario D. said:

Good analysis and in episode 15 where Leonard tells Penny he does not want to donate to Zack and Marisa I thought it would have been the perfect time for them to  at least discuss trying to have a baby, especially after their compelling hug. But the writers chose to ignore that scenario

What can we say about the writers. They tend to throw snags at Lenny's happiness times. The so called boat kiss that came out of nowhere. Sheldon inserting himself in the second wedding and ruining the gang's watching the first wedding. They gave us some nice moments,  but more snarky and arguments. The viewing party episode and the episode when Penny was all buddy with Raj when he lived in 4A are examples of angst thrown at Lenny. There are plenty others, but too numerous to mention.

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4 hours ago, chucky said:

What can we say about the writers. They tend to throw snags at Lenny's happiness times. The so called boat kiss that came out of nowhere. Sheldon inserting himself in the second wedding and ruining the gang's watching the first wedding. They gave us some nice moments,  but more snarky and arguments. The viewing party episode and the episode when Penny was all buddy with Raj when he lived in 4A are examples of angst thrown at Lenny. There are plenty others, but too numerous to mention.

You know seeing Kaley get nominations for the awards and upon reading an interview she gave about how she came to make The Flight Attendant brought something to my mind.  In the interview she stated that this project gave her room to grow as an actress. A way to to stretch her acting range and talent. Thinking back TBBT never really gave her that opportunity and moreso Chuck Lorre and the writers never gave Penny and Leonard the scenes to express their talent. They never wrote them with serious dramatic conversations. I know this is a comedy but the yardstick I always use is MASH. This was basically a comedy but had many dramatic scenes and overtones. Sure, there were some Lenny scenes where they tried to have a serious talk: like S9  Ep 2 after the wedding and when Zack offered Penny a job but they were few and far between. Many instances come to mind where they didn't have those conversations when they should have. When Penny feels Leonard is taking her for granted and she goes to the spa with Amy instead and Leonard goes there to talk but the writers wouldn't or couldn't write their talk. It just seems to me that these were comedy writers and could not come up with any meaningful dialogue for Lenny and so I think Kaley and Johnny careers suffered a little because of this approach.

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1 hour ago, Mario D. said:

You know seeing Kaley get nominations for the awards and upon reading an interview she gave about how she came to make The Flight Attendant brought something to my mind.  In the interview she stated that this project gave her room to grow as an actress. A way to to stretch her acting range and talent. Thinking back TBBT never really gave her that opportunity and moreso Chuck Lorre and the writers never gave Penny and Leonard the scenes to express their talent. They never wrote them with serious dramatic conversations. I know this is a comedy but the yardstick I always use is MASH. This was basically a comedy but had many dramatic scenes and overtones. Sure, there were some Lenny scenes where they tried to have a serious talk: like S9  Ep 2 after the wedding and when Zack offered Penny a job but they were few and far between. Many instances come to mind where they didn't have those conversations when they should have. When Penny feels Leonard is taking her for granted and she goes to the spa with Amy instead and Leonard goes there to talk but the writers wouldn't or couldn't write their talk. It just seems to me that these were comedy writers and could not come up with any meaningful dialogue for Lenny and so I think Kaley and Johnny careers suffered a little because of this approach.

Agreed

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On 2/6/2021 at 4:49 AM, Tensor said:

While I wasn't happy with episode 3, in season 12,  I have to point out that Penny did not initially say she didn't want kids, to either Leonard or Bernadette.  

In Leonard's case, she said, "What I meant was, what if, what if we didn’t have kids?  and "I mean our life is so great.  Why would we want to change that?   Instead of having that conversation, Leonard got angry and left.  

For Bernadette, Penny said, " You know, I’ve been thinking lately, that maybe I don’t want kids."  and later "...why is it crazy, to say I might not want kids?" At that point Bernadette became condescending, and Penny,  reacting the way she usually acts when she was pushed, got angry and cut off the discussion.  

So, there was no discussion, in either case,  of why Penny felt that way, nor when Leonard came back, did he bring it up for discussion, he just assumed she didn't want them.  

As for the sperm donation plot, I thought it was necessary, if for no other reason than to show Penny thinking about having kids.  We didn't see her thinking in episode three, and the two donation episodes showed she might be more confused and uncertain about the whole having kids thing, rather than just being against it.   

I may have a different thought about it, having gone through them several times recently (for the time and transcript projects).  Just pointing out while she mentions (in episode 12) the time she told Leonard she didn't want them,  Penny never actually says she doesn't want kids, on camera, in any episode.  See how they can fool you into thinking she did?

you do make very good points. I guess my main gripe is that we didn't get to see why she felt that way. she went from contemplating the idea of motherhood in previous seasons to saying  " I know I’d be great, but the point is I don’t want to be one." ( which is fine obviously, but why ??? )  

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2 hours ago, Polly said:

you do make very good points. I guess my main gripe is that we didn't get to see why she felt that way. she went from contemplating the idea of motherhood in previous seasons to saying  " I know I’d be great, but the point is I don’t want to be one." ( which is fine obviously, but why ??? )  

Agree. We lost out of many things Lenny related. The writers waste too much time on the Nobel nonsense. But, I did enjoy seeing Leonard slap Sheldon when they found out they won the award.  ☺️

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On 2/6/2021 at 4:55 AM, Tensor said:

There were several episodes in season 11 and 12 that while there were Shamy plots, there was a lot of Lenny and Leonard in them.  Off the top of my head,  The Laureate Accumulation where Leonard and Penny try to get Caltech Laureates to come to the reception, and The Plagiarism Schism, where Leonard get the good on Campbell and Pemberton come to mind.  

oh yeah The Laureate Accumulation was full of Lenny goodness " sometimes i forget you're smart because you're so sexy" " yeah I can see that" 😆 pure lenny banter i love so much. But the moment i prefer is when they're in Prof Thorne's office. I had a flashback of Penny in the first episode, a young naive aspiring actress , a decade later, she's in Caltech with her husband talking to a Nobel Laureate , it made me smile at the time and it still makes me smile now that I'm thinking about it . Leonard full of love and pride , Penny at her charming best . Love it. 

31 minutes ago, chucky said:

Agree. We lost out of many things Lenny related. The writers waste too much time on the Nobel nonsense. But, I did enjoy seeing Leonard slap Sheldon when they found out they won the award.  ☺️

hehehe that slap was phenomenal . 

We sure lost out many important Lenny moments ( not seeing Penny announcing her pregnancy to her Pop-tart is the only thing I will not forgive !! I can -almost- live with the rest . Ugh writers 

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8 minutes ago, Polly said:

We sure lost out many important Lenny moments ( not seeing Penny announcing her pregnancy to her Pop-tart is the only thing I will not forgive !! I can -almost- live with the rest . Ugh writers 

Oh, believe me, I'm not happy we missed out on that. Under the the idea of making lemonade, when life hands you lemons, we did get some nice fan fics (and one pretty damn good one 😉 ), with a lot of different views of how that particular conversation happened.  

Between my screen time and the transcript projects,  I got the impression, starting in season 11, (and a bit of it in season 10) that Lenny started appearing in other couples plots, as those couples (or individuals) came to Leonard and Penny for help.  This cut down on Leonard and Penny moments, but did give us them acting as a team. 

The biggest change, upon re-watching was the change in tone, between Lenny.  In seasons 8-10, it was more cutting, more sarcastic (especially Penny).  In season 11 and 12, it was more playful.  I attribute that to Steve Holland. 

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19 minutes ago, Polly said:

Penny announcing her pregnancy to her Pop-tart is the only thing I will not forgive !! I can -almost- live with the rest . Ugh writers 

The pregnancy announcement an he stupid boat kiss is the ones I can't forgive.

3 minutes ago, Tensor said:

Under the the idea of making lemonade, when life hands you lemons, we did get some nice fan fics (and one pretty damn good one 😉 ), with a lot of different views of how that particular conversation happened. 

I have to agree. There's been some nice fanfics on the subject and I've enjoyed reading them all!

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20 hours ago, Mario D. said:

You know seeing Kaley get nominations for the awards and upon reading an interview she gave about how she came to make The Flight Attendant brought something to my mind.  In the interview she stated that this project gave her room to grow as an actress. A way to to stretch her acting range and talent. Thinking back TBBT never really gave her that opportunity and moreso Chuck Lorre and the writers never gave Penny and Leonard the scenes to express their talent. They never wrote them with serious dramatic conversations. I know this is a comedy but the yardstick I always use is MASH. This was basically a comedy but had many dramatic scenes and overtones. Sure, there were some Lenny scenes where they tried to have a serious talk: like S9  Ep 2 after the wedding and when Zack offered Penny a job but they were few and far between. Many instances come to mind where they didn't have those conversations when they should have. When Penny feels Leonard is taking her for granted and she goes to the spa with Amy instead and Leonard goes there to talk but the writers wouldn't or couldn't write their talk. It just seems to me that these were comedy writers and could not come up with any meaningful dialogue for Lenny and so I think Kaley and Johnny careers suffered a little because of this approach.

I think you're totally right, and I could be wrong but I think Kaley has mentioned in some interview that she can almost play Penny in her sleep. I'm really happy for all her nominations because this is her answer to all people saying that she can't act. 

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1 hour ago, Swedish Chef said:

I'm really happy for all her nominations because this is her answer to all people saying that she can't act. 

So very true. I'm glad people are seeing that she is an amazing actress and not just a pretty face.

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1 hour ago, Tensor said:

Oh, believe me, I'm not happy we missed out on that. Under the the idea of making lemonade, when life hands you lemons, we did get some nice fan fics (and one pretty damn good one 😉 ), with a lot of different views of how that particular conversation happened.  

Between my screen time and the transcript projects,  I got the impression, starting in season 11, (and a bit of it in season 10) that Lenny started appearing in other couples plots, as those couples (or individuals) came to Leonard and Penny for help.  This cut down on Leonard and Penny moments, but did give us them acting as a team. 

The biggest change, upon re-watching was the change in tone, between Lenny.  In seasons 8-10, it was more cutting, more sarcastic (especially Penny).  In season 11 and 12, it was more playful.  I attribute that to Steve Holland. 

Oh yeah 😜 What I didn't get to see on screen I got to read in fanfic ( a personal fave is Penny telling Leonard in the heat of the moment lol I can totally see her do that ) .Not that it makes everything better but it is something. And there are some seriously talented people out there ,  loads of wonderful Lenny stories to enjoy.

Yes, very good point and it makes a lot sense because they've always both been very caring people . I'm going to digress a bit but please bear with me lol . I know ive been complaining a lot ( sorry ) about the whole pregnancy arc for Lenny but in the end i was glad they decided to make them become parents. After 12*15, i wasn't convinced at all they would end up having kids and I thought at the time that it was kinda cruel not to give them children because they are both the most nurturing characters of them all. You know in season 9 in the Sheldon's birthday episode, that scene where she's in the bathroom with Shelly , that's when it really hit me ( im not sure why) that she would make a wonderful mom. 

Yes these two can trade banter all day , teasing is their thing but there were always loving undertones but in seasons 8-10, it was just mean . I remember thinking " what have they done to my Penny ? " . It's nice they decided to tone it down a bit in the last two seasons . 

 

 

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2 hours ago, Swedish Chef said:

I think you're totally right, and I could be wrong but I think Kaley has mentioned in some interview that she can almost play Penny in her sleep. I'm really happy for all her nominations because this is her answer to all people saying that she can't act. 

So true  Think many people felt that she was stereotyped and never pictured  her with the range of emotion she portrayed as Cassie Bowden.  So very glad she proved her talent was worthy and is recognized as award winning.

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6 hours ago, Swedish Chef said:

I think you're totally right, and I could be wrong but I think Kaley has mentioned in some interview that she can almost play Penny in her sleep. I'm really happy for all her nominations because this is her answer to all people saying that she can't act. 

Any competent actor (note, competent, not necessarily great) can do that.  After a certain amount of time, as a character, it becomes part of you.  All of them, played their parts for 12 years (9 for the last two) and it's like flipping a switch.   I was in a play that lasted four months, with two months of rehearsals.  By midway through the run, your reactions are almost automatic.   The struggle is not playing the character, but to bring the same amount of energy every night.   In the case of TV, you also have the director, the showrunner, and the executive producer telling you how your character should act, which limits what you are able to do. 

And, while the various situations change weekly, for the TV show, the character doesn't very much, if at all week to week.   I think that's why she loved the "I love you" scene so much.  It let her examine Penny's vulnerable side.  There were very few times Penny was caught out in those, and most of them the conversation was cut off (think the first girls night, or Leonard's "what about me" on New Years Eve.), or played for a laugh (her breakdown at Leonard dating Priya).    The only similar situations, I feel,  where Kaley was allowed to explore those emotions, were the breakup at the bowling alley, where she's crying and apologizing to him, and the drunken proposal scene, where she breaks down about how her life is going, and  in a moment of clarity, although not at the right time, she finally understands Leonard's importance in her life.  

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1 hour ago, Tensor said:

Any competent actor (note, competent, not necessarily great) can do that.  After a certain amount of time, as a character, it becomes part of you.  All of them, played their parts for 12 years (9 for the last two) and it's like flipping a switch.   I was in a play that lasted four months, with two months of rehearsals.  By midway through the run, your reactions are almost automatic.   The struggle is not playing the character, but to bring the same amount of energy every night.   In the case of TV, you also have the director, the showrunner, and the executive producer telling you how your character should act, which limits what you are able to do. 

And, while the various situations change weekly, for the TV show, the character doesn't very much, if at all week to week.   I think that's why she loved the "I love you" scene so much.  It let her examine Penny's vulnerable side.  There were very few times Penny was caught out in those, and most of them the conversation was cut off (think the first girls night, or Leonard's "what about me" on New Years Eve.), or played for a laugh (her breakdown at Leonard dating Priya).    The only similar situations, I feel,  where Kaley was allowed to explore those emotions, were the breakup at the bowling alley, where she's crying and apologizing to him, and the drunken proposal scene, where she breaks down about how her life is going, and  in a moment of clarity, although not at the right time, she finally understands Leonard's importance in her life.  

I can see what you're saying. Nice insight to acting.

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3 hours ago, Tensor said:

Any competent actor (note, competent, not necessarily great) can do that.  After a certain amount of time, as a character, it becomes part of you.  All of them, played their parts for 12 years (9 for the last two) and it's like flipping a switch.   I was in a play that lasted four months, with two months of rehearsals.  By midway through the run, your reactions are almost automatic.   The struggle is not playing the character, but to bring the same amount of energy every night.   In the case of TV, you also have the director, the showrunner, and the executive producer telling you how your character should act, which limits what you are able to do. 

And, while the various situations change weekly, for the TV show, the character doesn't very much, if at all week to week.   I think that's why she loved the "I love you" scene so much.  It let her examine Penny's vulnerable side.  There were very few times Penny was caught out in those, and most of them the conversation was cut off (think the first girls night, or Leonard's "what about me" on New Years Eve.), or played for a laugh (her breakdown at Leonard dating Priya).    The only similar situations, I feel,  where Kaley was allowed to explore those emotions, were the breakup at the bowling alley, where she's crying and apologizing to him, and the drunken proposal scene, where she breaks down about how her life is going, and  in a moment of clarity, although not at the right time, she finally understands Leonard's importance in her life.  

What you say is very true and those scenes you described were a peek into her talent. But they were few and far between. What I was alluding to was that the writers never gave Kaley and Johnny enough of those  meaningful scenes.

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4 minutes ago, Mario D. said:

What you say is very true and those scenes you described were a peek into her talent. But they were few and far between. What I was alluding to was that the writers never gave Kaley and Johnny enough of those  meaningful scenes.

Sorry, I was just going by the 'Play Penny in her sleep" comment.  I was just trying to clarify that even half-assed actors, like myself, can play characters in their sleep, given playing the character enough.  It has nothing to do with the effort put in when playing the character.  

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8 hours ago, Tensor said:

Sorry, I was just going by the 'Play Penny in her sleep" comment.  I was just trying to clarify that even half-assed actors, like myself, can play characters in their sleep, given playing the character enough.  It has nothing to do with the effort put in when playing the character.  

Always interested to read your insights.  I just went on a rant because the Penny/Leonard relationship was stifled in many ways, especially after season nine. I always felt they could have done more meaningful episodes in the dramatic sense to utilize their talents. And now Kaley's talent is showing what could have been.

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