[Spoilers] Season 12 Discussion Thread

[3ku11]

4 hours ago, bfm said:

@April was trying to point out that Leonard was really into having kids with Penny, and so it is weird he comes to grisps with possibly not having them in a matter of an episode.

I don’t think we know he grasps with the idea. Until it airs. I think most likely he compromises. He’s prob learnt from the past not to push his luck. As he did with the whole ILY in S3. This ain’t without precedence.

And I still don’t think Penny not showing any doubt in S9. Is evidence of cannon. We know this show and continuity. I just don’t think their was enough their. Seeing that was 2 seasons ago. Things change, people change. It happens. 

[chucky]

3 hours ago, 3ku11 said:

I don’t think we know he grasps with the idea. Until it airs. I think most likely he compromises. He’s prob learnt from the past not to push his luck. As he did with the whole ILY in S3. This ain’t without precedence.

And I still don’t think Penny not showing any doubt in S9. Is evidence of cannon. We know this show and continuity. I just don’t think their was enough their. Seeing that was 2 seasons ago. Things change, people change. It happens. 

That's what I believe!

[bfm]

7 hours ago, chucky said:

I don't think it would take a whole episode for Leonard to come to grips and accept Penny's decision on having children one way or the other. But then we don't know how the writers will provide for Leonard to say. These are the same writers who had Leonard kiss Mandy on that ship and made Lenny sign that relationship agreement! So basically we won't know one way or the other until we watch the episode. 

 

 

6 hours ago, 3ku11 said:

I don’t think we know he grasps with the idea. Until it airs. I think most likely he compromises. He’s prob learnt from the past not to push his luck. As he did with the whole ILY in S3. This ain’t without precedence.

And I still don’t think Penny not showing any doubt in S9. Is evidence of cannon. We know this show and continuity. I just don’t think their was enough their. Seeing that was 2 seasons ago. Things change, people change. It happens. 

What I'm saying is that it is unrealistic to me that in just one episode he has already processed it enough to be able to have this full conversation where he says he will be fine with it. This feels like a silly Disney sitcom thing. Just click your fingers and everything is great! I would expect him to maybe tell her he loves her and will stay with her no matter what but that he needs time to process it and go for a walk or something. This is such a hugeee change from what he thought his life would be. 

And skull, on the one hand you're saying it's a continuity problem (which is basically what I'm saying) and on the other that it makes sense...

This whole thing is, IMO, the writers cutting themselves way to much slack. Silly me thought she could expect something more Friends level from them, not 70s Show. They're just jokers, they're weak on things like character psychology, continuity, caring about their characters... There's a reason the show itself and its writing were not considered for important awards other than People's Choice.

[Jonny]

Some things to consider:

- Penny is younger than Leonard, talking early 30's heading to mid 30's.  A lot of women particularly in this day and age do have children later in their lives than they did in the past. Gone are the days when women got married and had like 3 or 4 children by the time they hit their early to mid 30's.  The reasoning for it? A stronger focus on their career, a lot of professional women do focus more on their career more (partly in thanks to a lot of barriers being brought down over gender equality, equal pay and actual real career progression options for women these days).  Penny might feel like she doesn't want to have children now but I would say there is a possibility that might change as she gets older.  Barring any unforeseen medical issues for either Penny or Leonard, there needs to be no rush.

- It sounds like they face some external pressure again in this upcoming episode that brings up the topic and perhaps isn't all that welcome.  I have noticed with Penny in particular that when she faces pressure to do something or commit to something she doesn't like it in fact she sometimes rebels.  You have the topic in the opening scene by the looks of it of a detached house becoming available next door to Howard and Bernadette and then wanting to move there so their kids can play together.  I think back to that earlier episode when Howard and Bernie found out they were pregnant with Michael and they wanted Leonard and Penny to have a baby so that they could go through the experience together. I am not clear what kind of role her dad plays in this one, but again further pressure.  Honestly, they will just know when they are ready to try, they don't need parental pushing, pressure from friends or a compatibility test Raj filled out and they tried themselves to decide when.

- The planned pregnancy/trying every week for a number of episodes may have been killed off but I believe by the end of the show's run you will know that Leonard and Penny had children whether that's a pregnancy announcement in the final episode or a flash forward scene with Leonard and Penny sitting on a sofa in their home watching their kids doing something sciencey on a whiteboard or playing with a junior chemistry set or something.  The scene may not be that specific but I think you will see what happened to all these characters after it ended and they will have children.

Final point, I hope that Penny doesn't get vilified for her decision to not want to have children yet, she's a strong independent woman and her decision to not be pressured into something she is not ready for right now IMO should be embraced not criticised.  Let's see how it plays out during the course of the season as well, nothing is set in stone.

[chucky]

55 minutes ago, bfm said:

 

What I'm saying is that it is unrealistic to me that in just one episode he has already processed it enough to be able to have this full conversation where he says he will be fine with it. This feels like a silly Disney sitcom thing. Just click your fingers and everything is great! I would expect him to maybe tell her he loves her and will stay with her no matter what but that he needs time to process it and go for a walk or something. This is such a hugeee change from what he thought his life would be. 

And skull, on the one hand you're saying it's a continuity problem (which is basically what I'm saying) and on the other that it makes sense...

This whole thing is, IMO, the writers cutting themselves way to much slack. Silly me thought she could expect something more Friends level from them, not 70s Show. They're just jokers, they're weak on things like character psychology, continuity, caring about their characters... There's a reason the show itself and its writing were not considered for important awards other than People's Choice.

What can I say, it is what it is and we're stuck with what we have.

[veejay]

1 hour ago, bfm said:

What I'm saying is that it is unrealistic to me that in just one episode he has already processed it enough to be able to have this full conversation where he says he will be fine with it. This feels like a silly Disney sitcom thing. Just click your fingers and everything is great! I would expect him to maybe tell her he loves her and will stay with her no matter what but that he needs time to process it and go for a walk or something. This is such a hugeee change from what he thought his life would be.

How about Leonard's ride with Penny in the batmobile? (if I remember correctly)

[Die Zimtzicke]

3 hours ago, Jonny said:

- It sounds like they face some external pressure again in this upcoming episode that brings up the topic and perhaps isn't all that welcome.  I have noticed with Penny in particular that when she faces pressure to do something or commit to something she doesn't like it in fact she sometimes rebels.  You have the topic in the opening scene by the looks of it of a detached house becoming available next door to Howard and Bernadette and then wanting to move there so their kids can play together.  I think back to that earlier episode when Howard and Bernie found out they were pregnant with Michael and they wanted Leonard and Penny to have a baby so that they could go through the experience together. I am not clear what kind of role her dad plays in this one, but again further pressure.  Honestly, they will just know when they are ready to try, they don't need parental pushing, pressure from friends or a compatibility test Raj filled out and they tried themselves to decide when.

Very well put.

[Swedish Chef]

5 hours ago, Jonny said:

Some things to consider:

- Penny is younger than Leonard, talking early 30's heading to mid 30's.  A lot of women particularly in this day and age do have children later in their lives than they did in the past. Gone are the days when women got married and had like 3 or 4 children by the time they hit their early to mid 30's.  The reasoning for it? A stronger focus on their career, a lot of professional women do focus more on their career more (partly in thanks to a lot of barriers being brought down over gender equality, equal pay and actual real career progression options for women these days).  Penny might feel like she doesn't want to have children now but I would say there is a possibility that might change as she gets older.  Barring any unforeseen medical issues for either Penny or Leonard, there needs to be no rush.

- It sounds like they face some external pressure again in this upcoming episode that brings up the topic and perhaps isn't all that welcome.  I have noticed with Penny in particular that when she faces pressure to do something or commit to something she doesn't like it in fact she sometimes rebels.  You have the topic in the opening scene by the looks of it of a detached house becoming available next door to Howard and Bernadette and then wanting to move there so their kids can play together.  I think back to that earlier episode when Howard and Bernie found out they were pregnant with Michael and they wanted Leonard and Penny to have a baby so that they could go through the experience together. I am not clear what kind of role her dad plays in this one, but again further pressure.  Honestly, they will just know when they are ready to try, they don't need parental pushing, pressure from friends or a compatibility test Raj filled out and they tried themselves to decide when.

- The planned pregnancy/trying every week for a number of episodes may have been killed off but I believe by the end of the show's run you will know that Leonard and Penny had children whether that's a pregnancy announcement in the final episode or a flash forward scene with Leonard and Penny sitting on a sofa in their home watching their kids doing something sciencey on a whiteboard or playing with a junior chemistry set or something.  The scene may not be that specific but I think you will see what happened to all these characters after it ended and they will have children.

Final point, I hope that Penny doesn't get vilified for her decision to not want to have children yet, she's a strong independent woman and her decision to not be pressured into something she is not ready for right now IMO should be embraced not criticised.  Let's see how it plays out during the course of the season as well, nothing is set in stone.

Another thing to consider:

For some reason doesn't the writers really want Lenny to evolve anymore, it's much more important to have Lenny as a support character to Sheldon and Amy than to actually write some much needed character growth to Leonard and Penny.

[Die Zimtzicke]

11 minutes ago, Swedish Chef said:

Another thing to consider:

For some reason doesn't the writers really want Lenny to evolve anymore, it's much more important to have Lenny as a support character to Sheldon and Amy than to actually write some much needed character growth to Leonard and Penny.

I'd like to see how much time they spent with Sheldon and Amy, with Raj, and with Stuart in this ep. I think it would be pretty even from just eyeballing it.

[chucky]

2 minutes ago, Die Zimtzicke said:

I'd like to see how much time they spent with Sheldon and Amy, with Raj, and with Stuart in this ep. I think it would be pretty even from just eyeballing it.

Doesn't matter, the episode will be sheldon centric!

[Capt. Hilts]

6 hours ago, Jonny said:

Final point, I hope that Penny doesn't get vilified for her decision to not want to have children yet, she's a strong independent woman and her decision to not be pressured into something she is not ready for right now IMO should be embraced not criticised.  Let's see how it plays out during the course of the season as well, nothing is set in stone.

This is a point that gets lost too often.

You don't pack up and move from Nebraska to Los Angeles with uncertain employment if you aren't strong/independent.

[Capt. Hilts]

57 minutes ago, Swedish Chef said:

Another thing to consider:

For some reason doesn't the writers really want Lenny to evolve anymore, it's much more important to have Lenny as a support character to Sheldon and Amy than to actually write some much needed character growth to Leonard and Penny.

I am concerned by the new attention to Stuart when there are already too many characters.  Their insistence on having every character in nearly every show gives the program the feel of watching clips of whole shows you never get the chance to see.

I'd much rather see more Penny and Leonard than Howard & Bernadette.  That's a marriage I've seen depicted on many television shows already.  Too many. They do a really good job with stale material, but it's still stale material, to me.

Leonard is still the pivot point - that's why Penny and he are still in 4A, even though it made more sense for them to move into 4B, because then it would be more difficult for Leonard to be the host for the other characters.  It would be difficult for him to play that role in the smaller apartment: logistically and visually.  It just makes no sense that Sheldon would just up and abandon most of his stuff and desk, just like that.  But the writers had no alternative, because it was essential that Leonard be in 4A.

Remember, Mary Richards didn't evolve all that much.  She was usually a support character for Lou Grant and the other, broader, characters. 

Yet, she was the pivot point for it all and it's considered one of the greatest television shows, ever.

The same could be said about The Bob Newhart Show, in reference to Newhart's character.  He was, by far, probably the least interesting on the show, yet, it all revolved around him.  That same formula worked for him, again, on "Newhart."

[Jonny]

The writers have the perfect opportunity here to focus on Penny's career for a while, if they have agreed to not start a family yet then it could be a logical place to explore finally and give it some depth.

[Swedish Chef]

3 minutes ago, Jonny said:

The writers have the perfect opportunity here to focus on Penny's career for a while, if they have agreed to not start a family yet then it could be a logical place to explore finally and give it some depth.

How many times in the past has the writers focused on Penny's career ?  and nothing yet has really happened. This will probably just be another one episode story and never been mentioned ever again just like all the other times.

[Jonny]

2 minutes ago, Swedish Chef said:

How many times in the past has the writers focused on Penny's career ?  and nothing yet has really happened. This will probably just be another one episode story and never been mentioned ever again just like all the other times.

I think they 'should' not that 'they will'.

I would absolutely focus on her career this season but I am not one of the writers.

Edited September 30, 2018 by Jonny

[Capt. Hilts]

11 minutes ago, Jonny said:

The writers have the perfect opportunity here to focus on Penny's career for a while, if they have agreed to not start a family yet then it could be a logical place to explore finally and give it some depth.

PLEEEEEEEZEEE!

[Chrismo]

34 minutes ago, Capt. Hilts said:

This is a point that gets lost too often.

You don't pack up and move from Nebraska to Los Angeles with uncertain employment if you aren't strong/independent.

I disagree. She went to California with Kurt and lived with him for 4 years until he cheated on her. While on her own she used the guys wi/fi. She owed Leonard a thousand or so in money. She tried jokingly to sell her underwear to Howard and Raj. The job she got now is because of Bernadette. Gets her way? Yes. Independent? Not so much.

[chucky]

28 minutes ago, Jonny said:

The writers have the perfect opportunity here to focus on Penny's career for a while, if they have agreed to not start a family yet then it could be a logical place to explore finally and give it some depth.

You would think that could happen, but the pessimist in me don't believe this set of writers will do that!

[Swedish Chef]

9 minutes ago, chucky said:

You would think that could happen, but the pessimist in me don't believe this set of writers will do that!

It will probably be more important to write stories to all these characters from YS that will visit Tbbt.

[bfm]

8 hours ago, Jonny said:

Some things to consider:

- Penny is younger than Leonard, talking early 30's heading to mid 30's.  A lot of women particularly in this day and age do have children later in their lives than they did in the past. Gone are the days when women got married and had like 3 or 4 children by the time they hit their early to mid 30's.  The reasoning for it? A stronger focus on their career, a lot of professional women do focus more on their career more (partly in thanks to a lot of barriers being brought down over gender equality, equal pay and actual real career progression options for women these days).  Penny might feel like she doesn't want to have children now but I would say there is a possibility that might change as she gets older.  Barring any unforeseen medical issues for either Penny or Leonard, there needs to be no rush.

- It sounds like they face some external pressure again in this upcoming episode that brings up the topic and perhaps isn't all that welcome.  I have noticed with Penny in particular that when she faces pressure to do something or commit to something she doesn't like it in fact she sometimes rebels.  You have the topic in the opening scene by the looks of it of a detached house becoming available next door to Howard and Bernadette and then wanting to move there so their kids can play together.  I think back to that earlier episode when Howard and Bernie found out they were pregnant with Michael and they wanted Leonard and Penny to have a baby so that they could go through the experience together. I am not clear what kind of role her dad plays in this one, but again further pressure.  Honestly, they will just know when they are ready to try, they don't need parental pushing, pressure from friends or a compatibility test Raj filled out and they tried themselves to decide when.

- The planned pregnancy/trying every week for a number of episodes may have been killed off but I believe by the end of the show's run you will know that Leonard and Penny had children whether that's a pregnancy announcement in the final episode or a flash forward scene with Leonard and Penny sitting on a sofa in their home watching their kids doing something sciencey on a whiteboard or playing with a junior chemistry set or something.  The scene may not be that specific but I think you will see what happened to all these characters after it ended and they will have children.

Final point, I hope that Penny doesn't get vilified for her decision to not want to have children yet, she's a strong independent woman and her decision to not be pressured into something she is not ready for right now IMO should be embraced not criticised.  Let's see how it plays out during the course of the season as well, nothing is set in stone.

I really hope you're right. That includes your last point, it is the writers who are the problem, who give plots to the wrong characters, who don't care what fits the characters and the show's past. I can imagine though the youtube comments on how he should divorce her, some already write these comments so it will give them more material... But whatever, everybody is allowed their own opinion.

What makes me fear they will go with no kids, though, is that Holland went all out in the media saying he agrees with Kaley not wanting Lenny kids. There's the option that they'll just leave it open, with Penny undecided. I'd prefer that to no kids but it won't solve other issues I have with this whole thing (see below).

As for your first point, that is why "I'm not in a rush but yeah, sure!" made sense to me and I didn't take it as a hint of doubts.

8 hours ago, veejay said:

How about Leonard's ride with Penny in the batmobile? (if I remember correctly)

That was just kind of a consolation prize, a sweet gesture, but not him thinking through things.

1 hour ago, Jonny said:

The writers have the perfect opportunity here to focus on Penny's career for a while, if they have agreed to not start a family yet then it could be a logical place to explore finally and give it some depth.

This has been the situation for 3-4 years now, but we only got some side plot or mention every now and then. That is one of the things that really bothers me about the no kids thing - I doubt Lenny (and Leonard and Penny, especially Penny) will get enough plots this way. Sure, this not wanting kids plot is a plot but it's a plot that will potentially leave them with few plots. There's this episode and if they go with no kids they could have another with the decision and maybe a side plot getting a dog or something, but that's about it, they can't go like 7 episodes with deciding not to have kids, or remaining undecided.

Edited September 30, 2018 by bfm

[Die Zimtzicke]

2 hours ago, Capt. Hilts said:

Yet, she was the pivot point for it all and it's considered one of the greatest television shows, ever.

Sheldon is the pivot point for this show for me and always was.

 

2 hours ago, Chrismo said:

I disagree. She went to California with Kurt and lived with him for 4 years until he cheated on her. While on her own she used the guys wi/fi. She owed Leonard a thousand or so in money. She tried jokingly to sell her underwear to Howard and Raj. The job she got now is because of Bernadette. Gets her way? Yes. Independent? Not so much.

I totally agree with this.

 

2 hours ago, Jonny said:

The writers have the perfect opportunity here to focus on Penny's career for a while, if they have agreed to not start a family yet then it could be a logical place to explore finally and give it some depth.

I think this is what they will do. At least I hope it is.

[Mario D.]

38 minutes ago, bfm said:

I really hope you're right. That includes your last point, it is the writers who are the problem, who give plots to the wrong characters, who don't care what fits the characters and the show's past. I can imagine though the youtube comments on how he should divorce her, some already write these comments so it will give them more material... But whatever, everybody is allowed their own opinion.

What makes me fear they will go with no kids, though, is that Holland went all out in the media saying he agrees with Kaley not wanting Lenny kids. There's the option that they'll just leave it open, with Penny undecided. I'd prefer that to no kids but it won't solve other issues I have with this whole thing (see below).

As for your first point, that is why "I'm not in a rush but yeah, sure!" made sense to me and I didn't take it as a hint of doubts.

That was just kind of a consolation prize, a sweet gesture, but not him thinking through things.

This has been the situation for 3-4 years now, but we only got some side plot or mention every now and then. That is one of the things that really bothers me about the no kids thing - I doubt Lenny (and Leonard and Penny, especially Penny) will get enough plots this way. Sure, this not wanting kids plot is a plot but it's a plot that will potentially leave them with few plots. There's this episode and if they go with no kids they could have another with the decision and maybe a side plot getting a dog or something, but that's about it, they can't go like 7 episodes with deciding not to have kids, or remaining undecided.

This is true   That is why I could not understand why they brought this subject about babies up so early in the season.  I just think it will again crop up later maybe in an episode about Penny thinking she may be pregnant and possibly going to the doctor to confirm it.  It just seems a more plausible story.

[Capt. Hilts]

18 minutes ago, Die Zimtzicke said:

Sheldon is the pivot point for this show for me and always was.

But, without Leonard, he would have FAR fewer interactions with the other characters.

I find him the most compelling.  The one I sometimes watch even if he is not speaking, but, to me, Leonard is the glue of the show-the thing that keeps the other characters together. 

Over time, some of them have developed relationships that have their own momentum, but from my chair, the glue from the beginning, was always Leonard.

Edited September 30, 2018 by Capt. Hilts

[Kev0821]

Brian Posehn is a guest on Conan this week. The October 4th episode is scheduled to air at midnight on Thursday, October 5th. TBS has MLB scheduled that night, so you'll want to set your DVR with extra time.

Edited September 30, 2018 by Kev0821

[chucky]

5 hours ago, Swedish Chef said:

It will probably be more important to write stories to all these characters from YS that will visit Tbbt.

Sooo sad, but soo true!