[Spoilers] Season 12 Discussion Thread

[Chrismo]

Thanks for the taping report. Sounds like another dud.

[mirs1]

Just now, bfm said:

It is a theoretical idea that according to their advisor can be brought up. As far as I know in theoretical physics there is a lot of raising ideas and showing how they could work/have logic to them. But I'm certainly not a physicist, my field is very different to theoretical physics, I'm just relying on things I've heard from a theoretical physics MA and a Phd student doing other kind of theoretical work.

In fact, I have no idea why a paper that states super-asymmetry has no merit would make such an impression in Shamy. I mean, unless the scientist has made substantial objections, or has constructed an experiment to show it can't be true (you can't prove a theory, but you can disprove it with an experiment) theoretical physics lives on different scientists that create different (and sometimes conflicting) theories. In any event, if Shamy didn't do their diligence for the project, they "deserve" to feel miserable at the end of the episode, it's their fault.

As for Leonard doing the bibliographic work, this is indeed weird. It was not his job, as he is not among the authors of the paper (but, as I said, the authors had a laps in judgement on this one); BTW, one shouldn't even make a grad-student do that. It's plausible he went to the library, instead. Most of  recent articles are available in international  on-line databases, but probably that is not the case for an article from the 70es written in Russian. 

[Capt. Hilts]

6 hours ago, 3ku11 said:

It’s a comedy. Best to not treat it as face value. It’s deliberately Over Exagerrated. It’s like questioning how two physicists can afford such a nice apartment.

Two physicists at Cal Tech would be able to afford their own apartments.

It's that a waitress at the cheesecake factory could afford to live across the hall that is the big fantasy.

[bfm]

2 hours ago, mirs1 said:

In fact, I have no idea why a paper that states super-asymmetry has no merit would make such an impression in Shamy. I mean, unless the scientist has made substantial objections, or has constructed an experiment to show it can't be true (you can't prove a theory, but you can disprove it with an experiment) theoretical physics lives on different scientists that create different (and sometimes conflicting) theories. In any event, if Shamy didn't do their diligence for the project, they "deserve" to feel miserable at the end of the episode, it's their fault.

As for Leonard doing the bibliographic work, this is indeed weird. It was not his job, as he is not among the authors of the paper (but, as I said, the authors had a laps in judgement on this one); BTW, one shouldn't even make a grad-student do that. It's plausible he went to the library, instead. Most of  recent articles are available in international  on-line databases, but probably that is not the case for an article from the 70es written in Russian. 

YESSSS!!!!

I'm happy there's somone to share all that irks me about this with!

The first paragraph - that is what I said I wasn't sure this was the end of it, but it could be since the writers are clearly not trying much to write things the way they would be IRL so I don't know...

And writing their bibloigraphy? Again there are plenty of softwares that do that (I'm a bit old-fashioned and don't have one of these yet but I use Google Scholar for that) but it is most definitely not something a Phd whose not part of the writing team would do, that's a job for a BA student (and even that's a bit pathetic). 

Edited November 7, 2018 by bfm

[MsGreentea]

I am pretty sure Amy and Sheldon thought they had an original idea in super symmetry so at the very least, they were scooped by a 40 plus year old paper.  But sure unless the paper is convincing - they could continue-  but with the wind out of their sails for sure. 

Edited November 7, 2018 by MsGreentea

[vonmar]

Thanks @Kev0821 I hope you had an amazing time!

[chucky]

51 minutes ago, vonmar said:

Thanks @Kev0821 I hope you had an amazing time!

Agreed!!

[Tensor]

3 hours ago, Capt. Hilts said:

Two physicists at Cal Tech would be able to afford their own apartments.

Not really.  Remember Leonard moved in back in ~2003, jus after he got his doctorate.  Post docs don't get near as much money as actual staff members, and while Sheldon had his doctorate, he seemed more interested in having someone able to drive him.  And once Sheldon accepted Leonard, we all know how much Sheldon hates change.  

3 hours ago, Capt. Hilts said:

It's that a waitress at the cheesecake factory could afford to live across the hall that is the big fantasy.

Actually,  not it isn't.  Several people looked into it several years ago in one of the threads.   At that time,  mid to low level apartments (remember, with a broken elevator, it's closer to low end than high end)  in Pasadena were going for around  $1100 for a one bedroom and $1800 for a two bedroom.  Also, at that time, there were ads for The Cheesecake Factory touting pay around 33-37k a year.  After taxes, that would give Penny enough to squeak by, but she would be on the edge of not making it.   All of which fits quite close to Penny just barely getting by, using the guy's wifi,  and sometimes Leonard (and once Sheldon) helping her, when she can't quite make it.  

[MsGreentea]

Well while most folks do a post doc these days before they get a permanent position(usually at a different university), our guys appear to have been tenure track all along as they have never mentioned moving to assistant professors but were approved (to a list)  for tenure. Now they could effectively just be hired as research professors outside of the tenure process - but then they would not have grad students etc and would make a heck of a lot more money than a post doc or a cheese cake person.  They would make as much as a professor but without the job security.  Of course if these guy were tenure track but  didn’t have tenure (about six years ago max) they would have basically been fired.  So yes they should have been able to afford the apartment with a roommate (or without with no Cómicon etc. ) even from day 1.  But then why am I talking about the real world when TBBT is so loose with academia realities.

[chucky]

1 hour ago, MsGreentea said:

But then why am I talking about the real world when TBBT is so loose with academia realities.

I agree! It is a sitcom and usually they play loosely with real world activities!

[Capt. Hilts]

3 hours ago, Tensor said:

Not really.  Remember Leonard moved in back in ~2003, jus after he got his doctorate.  Post docs don't get near as much money as actual staff members, and while Sheldon had his doctorate, he seemed more interested in having someone able to drive him.  And once Sheldon accepted Leonard, we all know how much Sheldon hates change.  

Actually,  not it isn't.  Several people looked into it several years ago in one of the threads.   At that time,  mid to low level apartments (remember, with a broken elevator, it's closer to low end than high end)  in Pasadena were going for around  $1100 for a one bedroom and $1800 for a two bedroom.  Also, at that time, there were ads for The Cheesecake Factory touting pay around 33-37k a year.  After taxes, that would give Penny enough to squeak by, but she would be on the edge of not making it.   All of which fits quite close to Penny just barely getting by, using the guy's wifi,  and sometimes Leonard (and once Sheldon) helping her, when she can't quite make it.  

It is completely dependent on what grants you're working on and your field.  There are post-docs and there are post-docs and JOBS.  A friend of mine with a phd in theoretical physics via the Fermi  Lab landed right into a very well-paying job.  One of her pals ended up in a great job in Southern Calif.  At my graduate school, physicists - even as graduate students - were financially better off than many others because of grant work and work with professors on those grants.  The competition for students capable of working on these grants is pretty heated.  These guys went to the prestigious universities that are at an advantage for grants and support for students.  Physics department professors, etc. get paid well, especially at a place like Cal Tech.  I would think someone in applied physics at a U so close to the JPL as well as other defense department contractors ... Lockheed Martin in Palmdale, Northrop Grumman, Southern California is larded with tech companies that would love to hire consultants like Leonard.  Just proofing scientific publications is a nice second income.  Add to these opportunities that graduate students in these fields are less likely to accrue academic dept in graduate school, they don't hit the job market with the academic debt say, a law student does.  Southern Calif really benefits from high defense spending, so there would be some natural ups and downs.  And Cal Tech is competing with these industries to keep folks like Leonard, etc. on staff.  

No way would Howard with a master's from MIT have to live with his mother if he is capable of the work depicted.  Again, he's perfect for the aerospace industry.

A girl fresh off the boat from Nebraska isn't going to get the shifts that generate the highest income.  Even if she does, Sheldon and Leonard [I always mention Sheldon first for the reason they were named 'Sheldon' and 'Leonard'] are, at minimum, each earning twice as much as she is.   A two-bedroom apt. generally costs a couple hundred dollars extra per month.  Not double.  So, rent isn't the burden to Sheldon and Leonard as it is to Penny.  Plus, she has been regularly depicted as having financial problems.  Sheldon and Leonard, conversely, eat nearly every dinner from a restaurant, have all the latest games, etc.  They aren't hurting for cash.  Sheldon has said he has FAR more than he needs or uses.  Leonard referred to student loans, once.  

But if they didn't write it that way, they would not have a show.

ps.  No way Ann Marie could afford her apartment, either, on the wages of a part-time actress, on "That Girl."  People like to watch shows with nice sets.  Notice how few programs show rooms with dropped ceilings and florescent lighting?  Because no one wants to watch it.  

2 hours ago, MsGreentea said:

Well while most folks do a post doc these days before they get a permanent position(usually at a different university), our guys appear to have been tenure track all along as they have never mentioned moving to assistant professors but were approved (to a list)  for tenure. Now they could effectively just be hired as research professors outside of the tenure process - but then they would not have grad students etc and would make a heck of a lot more money than a post doc or a cheese cake person.  They would make as much as a professor but without the job security.  Of course if these guy were tenure track but  didn’t have tenure (about six years ago max) they would have basically been fired.  So yes they should have been able to afford the apartment with a roommate (or without with no Cómicon etc. ) even from day 1.  But then why am I talking about the real world when TBBT is so loose with academia realities.

Yeah, I was surprised the show brought up tenure.   

Edited November 7, 2018 by Capt. Hilts

[vonmar]

Regarding last night's taping...

Do we trust Howard's translation of the Russia paper?  Is he that fluent that he would be able to convert a Russian research paper to English properly?

[Capt. Hilts]

30 minutes ago, vonmar said:

Regarding last night's taping...

Do we trust Howard's translation of the Russia paper?  Is he that fluent that he would be able to convert a Russian research paper to English properly?

No!  

[chucky]

34 minutes ago, vonmar said:

Do we trust Howard's translation of the Russia paper?  Is he that fluent that he would be able to convert a Russian research paper to English properly?

Normally I'd say no. But, this is a comedy, so I'll say yes this once. 

[legacy99]

I guess all we know about Howard's Russian abilities is that at the start of the series he told everyone he spoke flawlessly Russian

Sent from my SM-G930P using Tapatalk

[hokie3457]

49 minutes ago, vonmar said:

Regarding last night's taping...

Do we trust Howard's translation of the Russia paper?  Is he that fluent that he would be able to convert a Russian research paper to English properly?

Actually, I do. His time with Russian cosmonauts during the NASA training and interaction with them on the International Space Station gives some credence to his ability to speak and read Russian.

[chucky]

1 minute ago, hokie3457 said:

Actually, I do. His time with Russian cosmonauts during the NASA training and interaction with them on the International Space Station gives some credence to his ability to speak and read Russian.

I agree. Now, if it was Chinese or French, that's a different matter.

[Capt. Hilts]

30 minutes ago, chucky said:

Normally I'd say no. But, this is a comedy, so I'll say yes this once. 

I would trust him to read it to determine if it was worth a professional translation.

[vonmar]

17 minutes ago, hokie3457 said:

Actually, I do. His time with Russian cosmonauts during the NASA training and interaction with them on the International Space Station gives some credence to his ability to speak and read Russian.

Enough though to translate a Russian Physics paper?

This could be a set up to bring the Super Asymmetry project back to life for S/A, Howard mistranslating something in the Russian paper.

[3ku11]

8 hours ago, Capt. Hilts said:

Two physicists at Cal Tech would be able to afford their own apartments.

It's that a waitress at the cheesecake factory could afford to live across the hall that is the big fantasy.

No not exactly the salary and income Leonard and Sheldon are on it is fesible that income is not always constant. My point was attempting to take every single detail at face value. Like everything needs to be accurate, is not eventagious to it being a comedy. And yes Im aware the inconsistency lies with a cheesecake factory waitress affording a apt across from 2 physicists. Can we not send snarky emojis. Every time someone might get something slightly wrong, or has a different opinion? Thank you. 

[joyceraye]

3 hours ago, vonmar said:

Regarding last night's taping...

Do we trust Howard's translation of the Russia paper?  Is he that fluent that he would be able to convert a Russian research paper to English properly?

Howard has to have good, scientific and technical Russian in order to do what he does, but that does not mean he's a professional translator. In Shamy's shoes, to be on the safe side, I'd pay an official translator, perhaps two, one native Russian speaker and one American, to cast an eye over the publication to confirm what Howard thinks he has read.All is not lost anyway. If Sheldon can find something in the paper that  to his mind casts doubt on the Russian findings, he might well be able to return to his idea. If the Russian scientists are still alive he might be able to talk to them and see what they still think. People do change their minds over forty years.

Edited November 8, 2018 by joyceraye
Removing merged post.

[joyceraye]

10 hours ago, Capt. Hilts said:

Two physicists at Cal Tech would be able to afford their own apartments.

It's that a waitress at the cheesecake factory could afford to live across the hall that is the big fantasy.

She couldn't afford it easily, especially with a car to run and the price of acting classes. The others had to help her out at times. She needed her tips and she resorted to clothing tricks to get free drinks and admissions to places. 

[joyceraye]

19 hours ago, April said:

But anyway, yes, this is so weird in terms of how you'd write a paper. I mean, I could probably accept that Sheldon rushed into this without doing the legwork first cause we've seen him do that before. But Amy??? I wouldn't think she'd be that sloppy.

Sentimental reasons are behind any sloppiness, I'd suggest. It was at their wedding that they came up with the concept of super asymmetry, Sheldon first. Amy, his bride was whom he wanted to tell. Then Leonard was excited by it when he went to see what was keeping them. The emotions associated with the occasion could well have eclipsed the protocol. This is their baby as much as Fun With Flags or a turtle in a herb garden. 

[Tensor]

5 hours ago, Capt. Hilts said:

It is completely dependent on what grants you're working on and your field.  There are post-docs and there are post-docs and JOBS.  A friend of mine with a phd in theoretical physics via the Fermi  Lab landed right into a very well-paying job.  One of her pals ended up in a great job in Southern Calif.  At my graduate school, physicists - even as graduate students - were financially better off than many others because of grant work and work with professors on those grants.  The competition for students capable of working on these grants is pretty heated.  These guys went to the prestigious universities that are at an advantage for grants and support for students.  Physics department professors, etc. get paid well, especially at a place like Cal Tech.  I would think someone in applied physics at a U so close to the JPL as well as other defense department contractors ... Lockheed Martin in Palmdale, Northrop Grumman, Southern California is larded with tech companies that would love to hire consultants like Leonard.  Just proofing scientific publications is a nice second income.  Add to these opportunities that graduate students in these fields are less likely to accrue academic dept in graduate school, they don't hit the job market with the academic debt say, a law student does.  Southern Calif really benefits from high defense spending, so there would be some natural ups and downs.  And Cal Tech is competing with these industries to keep folks like Leonard, etc. on staff.  

But that's just it. Do we know if Leonard and Sheldon got those type jobs?  How much exactly were Leonard and Sheldon making as post docs?  At this point, they would be making enough to afford their own apartment, but Leonard was just out of his PhD, and has mentioned his  student loan debt (out of no where it's true, but still) so he probably didn't have enough money for his own place and  Sheldon may not have been able to afford his own place, at that time.  (He has specifically said he needed a roommate to help with the expenses. 

 

5 hours ago, Capt. Hilts said:

No way would Howard with a master's from MIT have to live with his mother if he is capable of the work depicted.  Again, he's perfect for the aerospace industry.

Again, I have never heard Howard mention he couldn't live there, just he did because of his attachment to his mother.  After all, he said he could afford to take Apartment 5A for his own.  

 

5 hours ago, Capt. Hilts said:

A girl fresh off the boat from Nebraska isn't going to get the shifts that generate the highest income.  

She wasn't fresh off the boat.  It seems she was working there before she moved to 2311.  And, prior to that, she was living with Kurt.

5 hours ago, Capt. Hilts said:

Sheldon and Leonard, are, at minimum, each earning twice as much as she is.   A two-bedroom apt. generally costs a couple hundred dollars extra per month.  Not double.  

And so?  I mentioned in my last post that Sheldon and Leonard living there had changed to Sheldon needing Leonard  to be his personal servant, more than needing him to help with the rent (although there was that mention of needing a roommate to offset the expense).  And, if you go back to my last post, you'll see apartments in Pasadena  were running around $1100 for a one bedroom and $1800 for a two bedroom.  I'm not sure where why you mentioned double the rent.  

 

5 hours ago, Capt. Hilts said:

So, rent isn't the burden to Sheldon and Leonard as it is to Penny.  Plus, she has been regularly depicted as having financial problems. 

Here, I'll make it easy, here is what I said in my last post:

9 hours ago, Tensor said:

 After taxes, that would give Penny enough to squeak by, but she would be on the edge of not making it.   All of which fits quite close to Penny just barely getting by, using the guy's wifi,  and sometimes Leonard (and once Sheldon) helping her, when she can't quite make it.  

I was well aware of Penny having problems.  

 

5 hours ago, Capt. Hilts said:

 Sheldon and Leonard, conversely, eat nearly every dinner from a restaurant, have all the latest games, etc.  They aren't hurting for cash.  Sheldon has said he has FAR more than he needs or uses.  Leonard referred to student loans, once.  

Then perhaps you can explain why Sheldon specifically mentions he needed a roommate to help him with the rent.   You can look at it several different ways, depending on which quotes you use.  It is feasible to have those two to be living there and Penny to live across the hall.   I admit to it being on the edge of believable, but it is far from the fantasy you said it was.  

 

[bfm]

4 hours ago, 3ku11 said:

No not exactly the salary and income Leonard and Sheldon are on it is fesible that income is not always constant. My point was attempting to take every single detail at face value. Like everything needs to be accurate, is not eventagious to it being a comedy.

The issue is how much you're willing to stretch things. Having Leonard arrnage Shamy's bibliography is like... IDK, like a top designer would do the mass sawing for another top designer..? Like a top script writer spell-checking another top writer's script (for a project he is not part of)..? Like a hairstylist with his own saloon sweeping the floor for another hairstylist (say all day and coming to do that, not just passing by)..? It's just stretching things too far. Also, I expect a show that has a physicist to consult with to make more effort and not have things like that or like characters pondering where to put the refrences in. I'm surprised Mayim didn't say anything about that, but it could be that she just would not want to go against the writers and is willing to make those stretches for them (in an article about the wedding gift scavenger hunt she says it was OOC but seem to have just accepted that).

2 hours ago, joyceraye said:

Howard has to have good, scientific and technical Russian in order to do what he does, but that does not mean he's a professional translator. In Shamy's shoes, to be on the safe side, I'd pay an official translator, perhaps two, one native Russian speaker and one American, to cast an eye over the publication to confirm what Howard thinks he has read.All is not lost anyway. If Sheldon can find something in the paper that  to his mind casts doubt on the Russian findings, he might well be able to return to his idea. If the Russian scientists are still alive he might be able to talk to them and see what they still think. People do change their minds over forty years.

As far as I understand, there are no actual findings, but an opinion that it doesn't have merit. If that's so, Shamy can keep working and make their case that it has merit, unless the Russian's claims are very convincing to them.