[Spoilers] Season 12 Discussion Thread

[djsurrey]

2 hours ago, Tensor said:

And even a non-wimpy guy can have wimpy moments.  That's why I said I'd be interested in what Johnny considers his wimpy moments in those seasons, as I provided a short list off the top of my head (as I said, I can point out more).  It's my contention that during that period (seasons 3-7), they wrote Leonard as non-wimpy with wimpy moments and starting in season 7 de-evolved him, back to being wimpy. 

I see it a bit differently. I think Leonard just gained confidence. On the other hand I may just not be paying as much attention as some. 

[Tensor]

Just now, djsurrey said:

I see it a bit differently. I think Leonard just gained confidence. On the other hand I may just not be paying as much attention as some. 

I'm not sure of the difference  between gaining confidence and becoming non-wimpy.  But, let's split it and say there isn't a difference during season's 3 through 7.  The original post said that having Leonard become non-wimpy (or having more confidence) now, wouldn't fit the character because of how they have written him.  My point was since he wasn't written like he now is, back in season 3-7,  wasn't the way they started writing him in season 8  out of character for him?  

[djsurrey]

8 minutes ago, Tensor said:

14 minutes ago, djsurrey said:

 

I'm not sure of the difference  between gaining confidence and becoming non-wimpy.

For one thing he has been quick to over react to a little of his own blood. That has not changed as far as I can tell. He gained confidence with respect to women. And why not. Having Penny as a girlfriend and wife ought to boost his self confidence. I don't think it has made him more tough.

[Tensor]

1 minute ago, djsurrey said:

For one thing he has been quick to over react to a little of his own blood. That has not changed as far as I can tell. He gained confidence with respect to women. And why not. Having Penny as a girlfriend and wife ought to boost his self confidence. I don't think it has made him more tough.

We may be using different definitions of wimpy.  The over reaction to blood was in season 2 if I'm not mistaken, and even there, he had no problem showing Howard the stitches after it was sewn up.  I can't remember any in seasons 3-7, other than his inhaler, and that's due to a medical condition.  If you're thinking of being wimpy as some version of not being manly enough, yeah, I'll agree with you there.  

I'm thinking of his not standing up for himself and being whiny (as whiny was brought up).   While there were random instances of this in seasons 3-7, it got much worse in starting late in season seven (the directors comment about Penny being too hot for him, and his agreeing is an example).  

[SRAM]

11 minutes ago, djsurrey said:

For one thing he has been quick to over react to a little of his own blood. That has not changed as far as I can tell. He gained confidence with respect to women. And why not. Having Penny as a girlfriend and wife ought to boost his self confidence. I don't think it has made him more tough.

As I remember Sheldon fainted over the sight of his own blood so using that reasoning he is much more wimpy than Leonard, and we already know he is much more whiny since that is the way he mostly gets his way.

[djsurrey]

2 minutes ago, SRAM said:

As I remember Sheldon fainted over the sight of his own blood so using that reasoning he is much more wimpy than Leonard, and we already know he is much more whiny since that is the way he mostly gets his way.

Yes. I agree. There is also soft kitty when he is sick. Getting his mom to solve his problems....

[bfm]

2 hours ago, Tensor said:

I'm thinking of his not standing up for himself and being whiny (as whiny was brought up).   While there were random instances of this in seasons 3-7, it got much worse in starting late in season seven (the directors comment about Penny being too hot for him, and his agreeing is an example).  

I think this goes with the "he wore her down/she settled" theme. Both started/became frequent at a similar time, around season 8. Leonard appearing more "whimpy", "whiny", "lame", "pathetic", etc. helps them support the ridiculous wore down/settled claims that do not fit what we've seen on screen. It's easier for them to convince viewers of their distortion of the story's reality when they write him like that. 

And even in later seasons this is inconsistent. I didn't mind him crying over Raj and Howard that much, to me it was mostly just a poor attempt to get a laugh, but it was weird considering the previous year when he and Penny watched the Shamy have that toothbrush "ceremony" Penny was the one all emotional over it and Leonard was just weirded out by it.

[chucky]

5 hours ago, djsurrey said:

For what it's worth Leonard is a pillar of strength compared to Sheldon.

So true!

[Die Zimtzicke]

9 hours ago, djsurrey said:

For what it's worth Leonard is a pillar of strength compared to Sheldon.

That does not mean he's not wimpy and doesn't cave to other people a lot.

7 hours ago, Tensor said:

I'm thinking of his not standing up for himself and being whiny (as whiny was brought up).   While there were random instances of this in seasons 3-7, it got much worse in starting late in season seven (the directors comment about Penny being too hot for him, and his agreeing is an example).  

I couldn't agree with this more. There were instances of it all along, and it got worse later on.

Edited December 30, 2018 by Die Zimtzicke

[legacy99]

I've thought they went this way with Leonard because they wanted everyone to submit to sheldon if he showed any backbone sheldon wouldn't get the laughs

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[chucky]

21 minutes ago, legacy99 said:

I've thought they went this way with Leonard because they wanted everyone to submit to sheldon if he showed any backbone sheldon wouldn't get the laughs

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Sheldon has to get the laughs, which is ridiculous in my opinion. They even have Penny let him have his way! Penny is the only one to put him in his place.

[Tensor]

2 hours ago, Die Zimtzicke said:

I couldn't agree with this more. There were instances of it all along, and it got worse later on.

So you agree  since there were more instances of his not caving in seasons 3-7, the reversal of the cave/not cave instances indicated them writing him OOC, after season 7. 

[JohnPhD]

On 12/24/2018 at 7:01 AM, Sah said:

I also agree Penny is mean to Leonard and Leonard is a pushover.

Not true. Consider their situation now. Penny is living in Leonard's world and apparently has no friends outside it. She goes to the job she doesn't particularly like and brings in the larger part of their joint income, then their social life is pretty much what Leonard's always was. L generally refuses to do the sporty sort of things P likes. I thought it was really sad when Penny went with Amy to Bert's get-together for science faculty for want of anything more enjoyable to do. Leonard has got everything his own way, and IMO needs to pay a lot more attention to whether Penny is happy and to what she wants. A small example: is Penny happy with the way Sheldon, and particularly Amy, walk into 4A whenever they feel like it? L should ask her, and if she's not happy, tell both of them to back off. That's where he needs to develop some backbone, not against Penny. Another recent example - why was Penny expected to try to cheer S & A up when their implausible joint paper turned out to be rubbish? It doesn't mean anything to her (and I'd like to see some acknowledgement that she's the one whose right here, as actually it just doesn't mean anything).

The way Leonard is written suggests that he thinks that having got Penny to marry him he's home and dry and doesn't need to try any more. Sad.

[bfm]

39 minutes ago, JohnPhD said:

Not true. Consider their situation now. Penny is living in Leonard's world and apparently has no friends outside it. She goes to the job she doesn't particularly like and brings in the larger part of their joint income, then their social life is pretty much what Leonard's always was. L generally refuses to do the sporty sort of things P likes. I thought it was really sad when Penny went with Amy to Bert's get-together for science faculty for want of anything more enjoyable to do. Leonard has got everything his own way, and IMO needs to pay a lot more attention to whether Penny is happy and to what she wants. A small example: is Penny happy with the way Sheldon, and particularly Amy, walk into 4A whenever they feel like it? L should ask her, and if she's not happy, tell both of them to back off. That's where he needs to develop some backbone, not against Penny. Another recent example - why was Penny expected to try to cheer S & A up when their implausible joint paper turned out to be rubbish? It doesn't mean anything to her (and I'd like to see some acknowledgement that she's the one whose right here, as actually it just doesn't mean anything).

Penny is strong enough to tell others off if they're doing something that's making her uncomfortable or to go hang out with other friends in other places or change jobs. Leonard won't stop her. Besides, she keeps saying she's happy with the way her life is (it is inconsistent when it comes to her job but we have no choice but to take her words for it re everything else).

Edited December 30, 2018 by bfm

[SRAM]

3 hours ago, chucky said:

Sheldon has to get the laughs, which is ridiculous in my opinion. They even have Penny let him have his way! Penny is the only one to put him in his place.

Penny and Sheldon at each other’s throats every so often is much funnier than her caving to him.  I thought originally the idea that the guys caved to Sheldon and Penny would be the one who wouldn’t was a better way to tell the story.  However now she caves to him more than even his mother does, the writers have made all her conflict with her husband, not the person who gives her and Leonard the most grief, Sheldon.

[chucky]

6 minutes ago, SRAM said:

However now she caves to him more than even his mother does, the writers have made all her conflict with her husband, not the person who gives her and Leonard the most grief, Sheldon.

You made my point so much better than I did!

[SRAM]

1 hour ago, JohnPhD said:

Not true. Consider their situation now. Penny is living in Leonard's world and apparently has no friends outside it. She goes to the job she doesn't particularly like and brings in the larger part of their joint income, then their social life is pretty much what Leonard's always was. L generally refuses to do the sporty sort of things P likes. I thought it was really sad when Penny went with Amy to Bert's get-together for science faculty for want of anything more enjoyable to do. Leonard has got everything his own way, and IMO needs to pay a lot more attention to whether Penny is happy and to what she wants. A small example: is Penny happy with the way Sheldon, and particularly Amy, walk into 4A whenever they feel like it? L should ask her, and if she's not happy, tell both of them to back off. That's where he needs to develop some backbone, not against Penny. Another recent example - why was Penny expected to try to cheer S & A up when their implausible joint paper turned out to be rubbish? It doesn't mean anything to her (and I'd like to see some acknowledgement that she's the one whose right here, as actually it just doesn't mean anything).

The way Leonard is written suggests that he thinks that having got Penny to marry him he's home and dry and doesn't need to try any more. Sad.

You make some good points, the whole way they write Lenny has changed after season 6.  Where before they wrote them as very loving and their main source of conflict was usually Sheldon related, to a couple that generated their own conflict, ignored or caved to the conflict Sheldon caused, and even (in Penny’s case) discussed problems with Sheldon more.  I really think this change was based on either the writers being convinced that Lenny is funnier now being the conflict in the show or that they had so sold their souls to Sheldon being the lead character that they wanted to make him much more likable to the viewers.  So they don’t show very much or any of the love between Lenny anymore only the conflict and their difficulties being married, that taking precedent over the good stuff, which they only pay lip service to with only an occasional comment.

[JohnPhD]

1 hour ago, bfm said:

Penny is strong enough to tell others off if they're doing something that's making her uncomfortable.

Well, even Penny is a fictional character (altho a more fully developed and 3-dimensional one than any others except Leonard and perhaps Sheldon).  But IRL I think it's not uncommon for a woman who is perceived as "strong" not to get the protection she'd like from her partner. And we know that Penny liked "take-charge Leonard", so she'd probably like him to take charge of controlling others' access to their home. And as she moved in with Leonard, and Sheldon came with Leonard and Amy is Sheldon's partner, Penny might feel a bit awkward taking the initiative herself. And she seems IMO to suffer from a sort of paralysis when it comes to asserting her own rights.

[3ku11]

Slow month lol? Well we could say the same thing about Shamy. Amy is the pushover in that relationship. So the writers clearly like that mixed marrage dynamic. Of Assertiveness V Make the partner happy. Leonard can be take charge when he wants to be though. S2 Bath Item when he confronted Penny. S6 The Tangible Affection Proof.

[Kev0821]

Rati Gupta will appear on Hallmark Channel's Home & Family at 10 A.M. ET/PT this Wednesday, January 2nd.

[Mario D.]

2 hours ago, SRAM said:

You make some good points, the whole way they write Lenny has changed after season 6.  Where before they wrote them as very loving and their main source of conflict was usually Sheldon related, to a couple that generated their own conflict, ignored or caved to the conflict Sheldon caused, and even (in Penny’s case) discussed problems with Sheldon more.  I really think this change was based on either the writers being convinced that Lenny is funnier now being the conflict in the show or that they had so sold their souls to Sheldon being the lead character that they wanted to make him much more likable to the viewers.  So they don’t show very much or any of the love between Lenny anymore only the conflict and their difficulties being married, that taking precedent over the good stuff, which they only pay lip service to with only an occasional comment.

Good analysis  Think this is the Molaro effect.  He was the one who favored Sheldon because of YS and his theory is there is comedy in conflict not a loving, caring couple.......or maybe he can't write that type of relationship

[bfm]

2 hours ago, JohnPhD said:

Well, even Penny is a fictional character (altho a more fully developed and 3-dimensional one than any others except Leonard and perhaps Sheldon).  But IRL I think it's not uncommon for a woman who is perceived as "strong" not to get the protection she'd like from her partner. And we know that Penny liked "take-charge Leonard", so she'd probably like him to take charge of controlling others' access to their home. And as she moved in with Leonard, and Sheldon came with Leonard and Amy is Sheldon's partner, Penny might feel a bit awkward taking the initiative herself. And she seems IMO to suffer from a sort of paralysis when it comes to asserting her own rights.

I fail to see why Leonard should be the one to confront Sheldon and Amy. They're both their friends. Penny can ask him to do this if she wants but IMO it is not his responsibility. Both Leonard and Penny do not put much boundaries to their friends. That's them. This is not great but it also shows, IMO, that they're caring, compassionate people (characters). I like this about them. But I don't think one of them has greater resposibility than another to confront their friends if any of them wants that, unless it's something that involves just a friend(/s) that's closer to one of them (e.g., Leonard may ask for Penny's help if he wanted to confront Bernadette). 

Maybe we have a cultural/generational gap between us.

Edited December 30, 2018 by bfm

[chucky]

4 hours ago, SRAM said:

that they had so sold their souls to Sheldon being the lead character that they wanted to make him much more likable to the viewers.  So they don’t show very much or any of the love between Lenny anymore only the conflict and their difficulties being married, that taking precedent over the good stuff, which they only pay lip service to with only an occasional comment.

I definitely believe this part!

[vonmar]

1 hour ago, chucky said:

that they had so sold their souls to Sheldon being the lead character that they wanted to make him much more likable to the viewers.  So they don’t show very much or any of the love between Lenny anymore only the conflict and their difficulties being married, that taking precedent over the good stuff, which they only pay lip service to with only an occasional comment.

Sheldon was the breakout character from the beginning even when he was at his worst.  Jim won his first Emmy after Season 10, Amy had only appeared in a few minutes of the Season 10 finale, meaning the Emmy voters gave Jim the Emmy based on his total work as Sheldon, not the humanization of him once he met Amy.  He picked up more Emmys as they fleshed out that relationship.

Jim said in an interview on The Talk that "conflict is funny".  Life is difficult, people argue.  People go to paintball an shoot each other.  That's funny.

[chucky]

1 minute ago, vonmar said:

Sheldon was the breakout character from the beginning even when he was at his worst.  Jim won his first Emmy after Season 10, Amy had only appeared in a few minutes of the Season 10 finale, meaning the Emmy voters gave Jim the Emmy based on his total work as Sheldon, not the humanization of him once he met Amy.  He picked up more Emmys as they fleshed out that relationship.

Jim said in an interview on The Talk that "conflict is funny".  Life is difficult, people argue.  People go to paintball an shoot each other.  That's funny.

Oh well, if you say so!