[Spoilers] Season 12 Discussion Thread

[Mario D.]

4 minutes ago, Jonny said:

They came up with a story they thought would be compelling, time will tell if they were right or not.

As a big Penny fan I was actually happy she went with her decision at the time, in fact I had a great deal of respect for her position. I think if the writers were bold and brave enough to see it through they should have done so, but obviously now she’s going to change her mind. External factors are going to make her reflect, I just hope the writers have the ability to sell that change in stance and feelings in the right way.

Fans of the couple will be happy that I have no doubts about.

Always felt that 12x03 was a Chuck Lorre politically correct statement in showing that some women need not have children to be fulfilled. They portrayed Bernadette when pregnant with all the struggles a woman can face when bearing a child. Now, being the final season they have to show a happy ending for P&L

[Chrismo]

Just now, Mario D. said:

Always felt that 12x03 was a Chuck Lorre politically correct statement in showing that some women need not have children to be fulfilled. They portrayed Bernadette when pregnant with all the struggles a woman can face when bearing a child. Now, being the final season they have to show a happy ending for P&L

I think you are giving Chuck way too much credit. They had nothing else for Howdette. Doing this also brought Stuart into the mix

[bfm]

5 hours ago, Jonny said:

They came up with a story they thought would be compelling, time will tell if they were right or not.

As a big Penny fan I was actually happy she went with her decision at the time, in fact I had a great deal of respect for her position. I think if the writers were bold and brave enough to see it through they should have done so, but obviously now she’s going to change her mind. External factors are going to make her reflect, I just hope the writers have the ability to sell that change in stance and feelings in the right way.

Fans of the couple will be happy that I have no doubts about.

I may have accepted it if they had built it before and not just had her randomly change her mind 11 years in when there were no indications of her having such thoughts before, or if the change of mind was much better executed and compelling. What the writers didn't sell, IMO, was the "I don't want children" change of mind.

Edited December 31, 2018 by bfm

[Jonny]

40 minutes ago, Mario D. said:

Always felt that 12x03 was a Chuck Lorre politically correct statement in showing that some women need not have children to be fulfilled. They portrayed Bernadette when pregnant with all the struggles a woman can face when bearing a child. Now, being the final season they have to show a happy ending for P&L

Just like this perception by some on here of Leonard being tough and not at all Whiney I never saw Penny having this strong maternal instinct, a shrug and ‘Yeah Sure’ someday wasn’t a black and white indicator to me that Penny was really into the idea of having children. It’s why her decision earlier in the season wasn’t all that shocking to me IMO because I hadn’t seen enough to form an opinion previously.

I guess some might say it’s PC, but it’s a real life thing and becoming increasingly common. In this day and age having children isn’t the only natural life progression for a woman (it used to be for thousands of years). We have moved on as a culture, women get a lot more career opportunities and other things and interests that might be more appealing to them personally. In this modern age women who don’t want children either through natural urge or choice aren’t ostracised for their decision, it used to be the case  not all that long ago that women were criticised for having that position and it’s a sign of how far we have come and advanced as a society that has now changed and for the better.

Edited December 31, 2018 by Jonny

[Chrismo]

2 minutes ago, bfm said:

I may have accepted it it if they had built it before and not just had her randomly change her mind 11 years in when there were no indications of her having such thoughts before, or if the change of mind was much better executed and compelling. What the writers didn't sell, IMO, was the "I don't want children" change of mind.

The bigger problem was the reason for not having kids was her career. A job she hates and was willing to leave to go work with Zack?

[bfm]

17 minutes ago, Mario D. said:

Always felt that 12x03 was a Chuck Lorre politically correct statement in showing that some women need not have children to be fulfilled. They portrayed Bernadette when pregnant with all the struggles a woman can face when bearing a child. Now, being the final season they have to show a happy ending for P&L

They could've done that with Bernadette. There was a character who didn't want kids, and they just had her way too easily changing her mind when Howard said he would stay with thw kids. There was no need to drop this down on another character just because they missed the train with the first one.

[Chrismo]

Just now, bfm said:

They could've done that with Bernadette. There was a character who didn't want kids, and they just had her way too easily changing her mind when Howard said he would stay with thw kids. There was no need to drop this down on another character just because they missed the train with the first one.

Not only that but on YS they mention Sheldon having kids.

[Mario D.]

14 minutes ago, bfm said:

I may have accepted it it if they had built it before and not just had her randomly change her mind 11 years in when there were no indications of her having such thoughts before, or if the change of mind was much better executed and compelling. What the writers didn't sell, IMO, was the "I don't want children" change of mind.

What I am interested to see is her explanation of suddenly not wanting children and obviously to see how she reveals that she may be pregnant

[Die Zimtzicke]

12 hours ago, chucky said:

I was referring to the regulars. I know Barry and Leslie has put him in his place, regularly.

Howard does occasionally.

 

11 hours ago, Chrismo said:

The show is running on fumes when Denise and Stuart have a continuing storyline.

I like Denise and Stuart. Stuart has been a recurring character for awhile and I love the comic book shop and have always wished something would go his way. Denise and Stuart have freshened up the show and they've not on a lot every ep.

 

9 hours ago, Tensor said:

So then you agree with my counterpoint to the original post of Johnny's:  If Leonard caved less in the remainder of the show, it would not be out of character for him.

If Leonard caved less it would not surprise me since I have seen him occasionally do it before but I don't expect it. I expect them to keep making him wussy, which they do more often. If it happens, it happens. The previous poster saw him as a wimp and I completely understand why they do. Again, the perfect example is him telling Sheldon he should think about moving and then Penny letting Sheldon stay, or him going for a walk and coming back looking perfectly all right with not having kids. He seems to me to roll over way more than he sits up.

16 minutes ago, Chrismo said:

The bigger problem was the reason for not having kids was her career. A job she hates and was willing to leave to go work with Zack?

She didn't say she wanted or didn't want kids in relation to her career. She has said she wanted more money but she also said she wanted to stay thin. Her figure means a lot to her.

[bfm]

 

32 minutes ago, Jonny said:

Just like this perception by some on here of Leonard being tough and not at all Whiney I never saw Penny having this strong maternal instinct, a shrug and ‘Yeah Sure’ someday wasn’t a black and white indicator to me that Penny was really into the idea of having children. It’s why her decision earlier in the season wasn’t all that shocking to me IMO because I hadn’t seen enough to form an opinion previously.

I guess some might say it’s PC, but it’s a real life thing and becoming increasingly common. In this day and age having children isn’t the only natural life profession for a woman (it used to be for thousands of years). We have moved on as a culture, women get a lot more career opportunities and other things and interests that might be more appealing to them personally. In this modern age women who don’t want children either through natural urge or choice aren’t ostracised for their decision, it used to be the case  not all that long ago that women were criticised for having that position and it’s a sign of how far we have come and advanced as a society that has now changed and for the better.

I totally agree with your second paragraph, but I completely disagree with the decision to suddenly drop this on Penny. She didn't seem to desperately want children, I agree, but there were more than enough opportunities to show she may not want them. A sudden "I've had some thoughts over the last weeks and now I don't want children", I don't buy it. That's so lazy and simplistic, as if an amateur wrote that and not a bunch of professional writers. And that scene in season 9 - that's subjective, but after reading people disregarding it again and again I've watched it again and in my eyes she seems to be on board, by tone and facial expression. I'd put money that Kaley was directed to give an "on board" vibe back then, no hesitation. 

Besides, this is supposed to be a feel-good sitcom. My favorite character getting its heart broken is not what I signed up for. It wasn't funny nor touching, just sad. Also, it didn't strengthen Penny's character or added to it in anyway because they just dropped it and left it at that, only to come back later with something ridiculous, to me this is actually doing a disservice to people who don't want kids. If I wanted to see broken hearted characters I would watch one of many dramas that are on these days.

Edited December 31, 2018 by bfm
Merged

[bfm]

Happy new year everyone! (6 hours away over here) May you all have an awesome year!

[JohnPhD]

18 hours ago, bfm said:

Maybe we have a cultural/generational gap between us.

What exactly do you mean?

[Kev0821]

I'm still wondering if we'll see a return to acting for Penny in any way, shape, or form. Bill Prady's tweet about casting news made me think that William Shatner or someone big was being considered. I always thought it would fun for Penny and he to do a commercial. It would be a little nod to the fact that he and Kaley played father and daughter in Priceline commercials. Perhaps the writers considered this scenario before. From what I've read, William Shatner didn't want to play a version of himself on the show. Nevertheless, all of this has me curious to see if anything will come of a potential PR/spokesperson type of role for Penny at Zangen.

Edited December 31, 2018 by Kev0821
Typo

[bfm]

50 minutes ago, JohnPhD said:

What exactly do you mean?

That are views may derive from different cultural norms, in this case I believ related to gender expectations

Edited December 31, 2018 by bfm

[Tensor]

 

2 hours ago, Die Zimtzicke said:

If Leonard caved less it would not surprise me since I have seen him occasionally do it before but I don't expect it. 

 

That's been my point all along.  Up though season six, he was occasionally caved, but it wasn't expected.  By your reasoning you should have expected them to continue to write him only occasionally caving, right?  Which led me to say that in late season 7 they started writing him out of character from the previous years.   

2 hours ago, Die Zimtzicke said:

 I expect them to keep making him wussy, which they do more often. 

You do realize this is almost an exact definition of "in character", right.  Which leads me back to my point: they wrote him more non-caving prior to late season 7, so you must have expected them to continue to write him as non-caving, right?  

 If not, how do you say they are so inconsistent in how they write the characters, yet you say you expect them to write them a certain way, now.  You don't seem to agree they changed the way the wrote the character, before.   If they didn't change the way they wrote him, you seem to be saying you would have expected them to continue to write him as non-caving, is this right?  By the way, wussy here, for me, means caving.

 

2 hours ago, Die Zimtzicke said:

 The previous poster saw him as a wimp and I completely understand why they do. 

As do I, now, that's my whole point.  He's been written that way after season 7, but prior to season 7, they didn't write him that way,  hence me saying they wrote him out of character.  But, again, you say they write him inconsistently, so you don't expect them to change the way they write a character.   I've yet to see any examples from the previous poster supporting their contention that they wrote him as caving, a majority of the time, prior to late season 7.    

2 hours ago, Die Zimtzicke said:

 Again, the perfect example is him telling Sheldon he should think about moving and then Penny letting Sheldon stay, or him going for a walk and coming back looking perfectly all right with not having kids. He seems to me to roll over way more than he sits up.

You are right, they are the perfect examples, for after season 7. (they also ignore any times he didn't cave).   Sheldon staying, was in season 9 and the kids thing was this year.   But, that's been my point.  I've already conceded they write him a caving after late season 7.     Where are the examples that they wrote him as caving, a majority of the time,  prior to season 7?

 

2 hours ago, Jonny said:

Just like this perception by some on here of Leonard being tough and not at all Whiney

Or, just like the perception that Leonard had never been anything else but soft and whiny, both are wrong.    The contention actually is they started changing the way they wrote him in late season 7.    Prior to that, he would stand up for himself more than he did after that point.    I offered to listen to your examples, or refute my examples prior to late season 7. 

[chucky]

2 hours ago, Die Zimtzicke said:

Howard does occasionally.

No, not really. Howard  is just using sarcasm! 

[Jonny]

32 minutes ago, Tensor said:

 

 

That's been my point all along.  Up though season six, he was occasionally caved, but it wasn't expected.  By your reasoning you should have expected them to continue to write him only occasionally caving, right?  Which led me to say that in late season 7 they started writing him out of character from the previous years.   

You do realize this is almost an exact definition of "in character", right.  Which leads me back to my point: they wrote him more non-caving prior to late season 7, so you must have expected them to continue to write him as non-caving, right?  

 If not, how do you say they are so inconsistent in how they write the characters, yet you say you expect them to write them a certain way, now.  You don't seem to agree they changed the way the wrote the character, before.   If they didn't change the way they wrote him, you seem to be saying you would have expected them to continue to write him as non-caving, is this right?  By the way, wussy here, for me, means caving.

 

As do I, now, that's my whole point.  He's been written that way after season 7, but prior to season 7, they didn't write him that way,  hence me saying they wrote him out of character.  But, again, you say they write him inconsistently, so you don't expect them to change the way they write a character.   I've yet to see any examples from the previous poster supporting their contention that they wrote him as caving, a majority of the time, prior to late season 7.    

You are right, they are the perfect examples, for after season 7. (they also ignore any times he didn't cave).   Sheldon staying, was in season 9 and the kids thing was this year.   But, that's been my point.  I've already conceded they write him a caving after late season 7.     Where are the examples that they wrote him as caving, a majority of the time,  prior to season 7?

 

Or, just like the perception that Leonard had never been anything else but soft and whiny, both are wrong.    The contention actually is they started changing the way they wrote him in late season 7.    Prior to that, he would stand up for himself more than he did after that point.    I offered to listen to your examples, or refute my examples prior to late season 7. 

Then you are in for an eternal wait as i’m not going to give examples. Because it’s pointless as you have your perception of Leonard over the years and I have mine. Why give examples when essentially we fundamentally disagree on those examples and how they come across?

From Season 1 to Season 12 the perception I have had of Leonard and his particular characteristics hasn’t changed AT ALL. So when you say he changed between certain seasons, well I don’t agree and that’s fine as we all perceive the show and the characters differently.

Edited December 31, 2018 by Jonny

[Tensor]

3 minutes ago, Jonny said:

Then you are in for an eternal wait as i’m not going to give examples. Because it’s pointless as you have your perception of Leonard over the years and I have mine. Why give examples when essentially we fundamentally disagree on those examples and how they come across?

I like to give examples as it shows why I have the opinion I have, and if there are other examples that show I’m wrong, hey it’s happened before.  If reasons for an opinion aren’t given, (or on the other side, reasons refuting the opinion are ignored) then it could very well be a faulty opinion.

 

3 minutes ago, Jonny said:

From Season 1 to Season 12 the perception I have had of Leonard and his particular characteristics haven’t changed AT ALL. So when you say he changed between certain seasons, well I don’t agree and that’s fine as we all perceive the show and the characters differently.

Yes, we all perceive the show differently, but again, you don’t want to discuss why you and I have the opinions we do?  Or, whether or not there is a basis for our opinions?  It’s like someone just saying I disagree, with a opinion, not very informative. 

[Chrismo]

3 hours ago, Die Zimtzicke said:

 

 

I like Denise and Stuart. Stuart has been a recurring character for awhile and I love the comic book shop and have always wished something would go his way. Denise and Stuart have freshened up the show and they've not on a lot every ep.

 

 

She didn't say she wanted or didn't want kids in relation to her career. She has said she wanted more money but she also said she wanted to stay thin. Her figure means a lot to her.

Its not a question of liking them or not their purpose IMO is to kill time.

I don't see the connection of money and thinness.

[hokie3457]

4 hours ago, Chrismo said:

Not only that but on YS they mention Sheldon having kids.

Yes!   The two characters you would least imagine having kids (Bernadette having repeatedly said she did not care for children; Sheldon being repulsed by anything having to do with them--noisy, messy, loud) are through actual fact and foreshadowed promise parents!

[Chrismo]

1 minute ago, hokie3457 said:

Yes!   The two characters you would least imagine having kids (Bernadette having repeatedly said she did not care for children; Sheldon being repulsed by anything having to do with them--noisy, messy, loud) are through actual fact and foreshadowed promise parents!

Anyway just to screw Lenny.

[hokie3457]

3 hours ago, bfm said:

 

I totally agree with your second paragraph, but I completely disagree with the decision to suddenly drop this on Penny. She didn't seem to desperately want children, I agree, but there were more than enough opportunities to show she may not want them. A sudden "I've had some thoughts over the last weeks and now I don't want children", I don't buy it. That's so lazy and simplistic, as if an amateur wrote that and not a bunch of professional writers. And that scene in season 9 - that's subjective, but after reading people disregarding it again and again I've watched it again and in my eyes she seems to be on board, by tone and facial expression. I'd put money that Kaley was directed to give an "on board" vibe back then, no hesitation. 

Besides, this is supposed to be a feel-good sitcom. My favorite character getting its heart broken is not what I signed up for. It wasn't funny nor touching, just sad. Also, it didn't strengthen Penny's character or added to it in anyway because they just dropped it and left it at that, only to come back later with something ridiculous, to me this is actually doing a disservice to people who don't want kids. If I wanted to see broken hearted characters I would watch one of many dramas that are on these days.

It will be a huge disservice.  The only thing that will save them if she reveals that she has a medical problem that makes it difficult to conceive and that she had been trying.  Otherwise, it will be a slap in the face to those who choose differently.  They really dropped the ball on this one.  Big time. Big. Huge (channeling Julia Roberts)

[Chrismo]

13 minutes ago, hokie3457 said:

It will be a huge disservice.  The only thing that will save them if she reveals that she has a medical problem that makes it difficult to conceive and that she had been trying.  Otherwise, it will be a slap in the face to those who choose differently.  They really dropped the ball on this one.  Big time. Big. Huge (channeling Julia Roberts)

Even with the medical problem idea the question may come up how long has she known this?

[SRAM]

52 minutes ago, Chrismo said:

Even with the medical problem idea the question may come up how long has she known this?

Very true, for someone to have a medical problem, making it impossible for them to have kids, and not telling the person you agree to marry, before you marry them, is a very serious case of deceit on Penny’s part.

[Chrismo]

5 minutes ago, SRAM said:

Very true, for someone to have a medical problem, making it impossible for them to have kids, and not telling the person you agree to marry, before you marry them, is a very serious case of deceit on Penny’s part.

Even if it's her just finding out she will have difficulty having kids it isn't funny. Zack shooting blanks is funny.