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[Spoilers] Season 12 Discussion Thread

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Posted (edited)
8 hours ago, Shamyyes said:

So I just rewatched 12-23 and 12-24 for the first time since it aired on May. I have decided I don’t like it. Rewatching it with some distance between the emotionality of the series ending and a bit of a mourning period. That is my conclusion. I don’t like it. A. Because it is the end and B.because I realize now they wasted most of season 12.  Yes story lines were tied up in little bows but I feel now that it was all rushed. Pregnancy story line definitely could have been flushed out better. Even the small bit about Amy’s makeover. 

I LOVE the series but my conclusion about the conclusion is now just disappointment and meh🤷🏻‍♀️🤷🏻‍♀️🤷🏻‍♀️

I disagree 12/23 and 12/24 were good. I do agree that season 12 as a whole was a disappointment. Most of the episodes of Season 12, for me, were a pain to watch.

Edited by chucky
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On 8/2/2019 at 1:54 PM, Spaced_up said:

I believe there is an early interview which states that it took about 4 episodes for the writers to cement the characters. There has been a lot of speculation about the changes. Particularly Sheldon, as he is the seminal character. Once they realised where they could direct him. the show was shaped. Sheldon was and is, the breakout star. Jim as Sheldon was a special event. It doesn't happen often.

Observe the beauty of sheldon before the b*****t and the glory and raw honesty of Sheldon and Penny. Hell they are perfect... I could die...

 

 

 

Great stuff.

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On 8/3/2019 at 9:31 AM, Die Zimtzicke said:

Sheldon and Penny were great to me when they were adversarial. I did not like Penny except for that aspect of the character...the way she sparred with Sheldon. When she thought he was weird and he thought she was dumb they were at their best. Once they became good friends they were not funny at all and it hurt the show. I will always believe that.

Spot on! 

I will always feel that TBBT was changed, irrevocably and for the worse, when it was decided to evolve Sheldon from his original persona into something radically different. Once he stopped being the 'socially challenged, beautiful mind, quirk filled, condescending, elitist, intellectual snob' on his way to 'normalcy' he became all too often just plain annoying. He still took shots at Penny, but they came across as mean spirited and cheap. 

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1 hour ago, HeWolf said:

Spot on! 

I will always feel that TBBT was changed, irrevocably and for the worse, when it was decided to evolve Sheldon from his original persona into something radically different. Once he stopped being the 'socially challenged, beautiful mind, quirk filled, condescending, elitist, intellectual snob' on his way to 'normalcy' he became all too often just plain annoying. He still took shots at Penny, but they came across as mean spirited and cheap. 

shen_186.gif.22b72b282d4c9f2447de66f4890bbd87.gif

@HeWolf  It didn't take me that long to agree with you. 😀

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1 hour ago, HeWolf said:

Spot on! 

I will always feel that TBBT was changed, irrevocably and for the worse, when it was decided to evolve Sheldon from his original persona into something radically different. Once he stopped being the 'socially challenged, beautiful mind, quirk filled, condescending, elitist, intellectual snob' on his way to 'normalcy' he became all too often just plain annoying. He still took shots at Penny, but they came across as mean spirited and cheap. 

Totally agree!

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Posted (edited)
On 8/3/2019 at 8:31 AM, Die Zimtzicke said:

Once they became good friends they were not funny at all and it hurt the show.

Plus, to me, that was when Penny was wanting to help Sheldon more than her husband. I know at least 3 or 4 times Penny said when Sheldon talked about being bullied she wanted to hug him and make him feel better and when Leonard started to talk about him being bullied, she told him he probably deserved it or he had it coming. The writers thought it was funny, but I did not laugh in the least.

Edited by chucky
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2 hours ago, HeWolf said:

Spot on! 

I will always feel that TBBT was changed, irrevocably and for the worse, when it was decided to evolve Sheldon from his original persona into something radically different. Once he stopped being the 'socially challenged, beautiful mind, quirk filled, condescending, elitist, intellectual snob' on his way to 'normalcy' he became all too often just plain annoying. He still took shots at Penny, but they came across as mean spirited and cheap. 

I think the 'socially challenged, beautiful mind, quirk filled, condescending, elitist, intellectual snob' characterisation couldn't have lasted for ever with no improvement. Perhaps it does in real life but in fiction it wouldn't have made for a very popular story as the years went on. What's poignant in a little boy, and tolerable in a twenty-something scarcely-grown man, is not in the least interesting in a forty-year-old. I just wish, as they made him more aware of his shortcomings, they'd made him a bit  nicer, even if it was only to Amy.

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39 minutes ago, joyceraye said:

I think the 'socially challenged, beautiful mind, quirk filled, condescending, elitist, intellectual snob' characterisation couldn't have lasted for ever with no improvement. Perhaps it does in real life but in fiction it wouldn't have made for a very popular story as the years went on. What's poignant in a little boy, and tolerable in a twenty-something scarcely-grown man, is not in the least interesting in a forty-year-old. I just wish, as they made him more aware of his shortcomings, they'd made him a bit  nicer, even if it was only to Amy.

"I just wish, as they made him more aware of his shortcomings, they'd made him a bit nicer, even if it was only to Amy." That might have worked out and been okay. If only he had shown some consistency in his 'progression'. Instead, he alternated between being his old  'socially challenged, beautiful mind, quirk filled, condescending, elitist, intellectual snob' self; a person on the way to emotional and behavioral maturity; and an overgrown toddler. The tolerance he received from his friends and loved ones in earlier seasons became irrational and inexplicable in later years. This is how he went from being my favorite TBBT character to one that had to be endured. 

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5 minutes ago, HeWolf said:

This is how he went from being my favorite TBBT character to one that had to be endured. 

He definitely had to be endured!

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1 hour ago, HeWolf said:

"I just wish, as they made him more aware of his shortcomings, they'd made him a bit nicer, even if it was only to Amy." That might have worked out and been okay. If only he had shown some consistency in his 'progression'. Instead, he alternated between being his old  'socially challenged, beautiful mind, quirk filled, condescending, elitist, intellectual snob' self; a person on the way to emotional and behavioral maturity; and an overgrown toddler. The tolerance he received from his friends and loved ones in earlier seasons became irrational and inexplicable in later years. This is how he went from being my favorite TBBT character to one that had to be endured. 

Agree with you totally.  And I think the worse image of him being an overgrown toddler is when Penny and Leonard got married and they had to endure living with Sheldon because he could not bear living alone. Think this was a real  mistake by tptb to keep this arrangement as they could have created just as many situations with P&L living across the hall. I really believe that when Sheldon was a youngster his family protected him so much that he was never allowed to grow up into manhood. Thus, we now have a grown man in his  30's - 40's  just now reaching maturity. And all his friends have to endure and tolerate him.

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3 hours ago, Mario D. said:

I really believe that when Sheldon was a youngster his family protected him so much that he was never allowed to grow up into manhood.

I believe Leonard is responsible as well. He never made Sheldon do anything, he just did everything for him.

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3 hours ago, Nogravitasatall said:

It didn’t seem to hurt the ratings though. People swallowed it all. Makes me realise how tiny and lacking influence the L/P cohort must have been. Sheldon was a juggernaut, and not in the Marvel comic sense.

 

I'm not sure Lennys were tiny and lacking influence. I think many of us kept watching because we still wanted to see them, and we also kept clinging to hopes that things will get better. Also, I know some Lennys didn't think it was that bad (or thought it wasn't bad at all) and truly enjoyed the later seasons.

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35 minutes ago, bfm said:

Also, I know some Lennys didn't think it was that bad (or thought it wasn't bad at all) and truly enjoyed the later seasons.

I am one of those Lennys. And I stand by it. :yes:

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20 minutes ago, snowflake79 said:

I am one of those Lennys. And I stand by it. :yes:

 

59 minutes ago, bfm said:

I'm not sure Lennys were tiny and lacking influence. I think many of us kept watching because we still wanted to see them, and we also kept clinging to hopes that things will get better. Also, I know some Lennys didn't think it was that bad (or thought it wasn't bad at all) and truly enjoyed the later seasons.

Oh I don’t mean to be rude to the cohort, but we all might have sent “thoughts and prayers”  for the actual effect we had. For one, Sheldon wasn’t smothered. Two, getting married didn’t get Sheldon out of there. And three, well, look.

Just my opinion. An impression, in the afterglow. :) 

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Posted (edited)
6 hours ago, Nogravitasatall said:

I feel Penny and Leonard were both pretty sucky to each other in order to coddle Sheldon. The show spent a long time persuading me that they really needed and wanted each other - hence the angst and drama of the season 4, the Priya digression,  the Penny/Raj debacle, and then Penny and Leonard 2.0 - followed by what... seven season of enabling Sheldon while disparaging one another. They never or rarely had any fun that we saw, they just existed as props for gags about Sheldon. Penny fawned over Sheldon and rarely stood with Leonard against him. I kept hoping for better and hung around because of that hope.

And what did I get for staying... the frakkin’ “boat kiss” cliffhanger. Then they served up the almost unnatural cohabitation with Sheldon, which was just ludicrous pandering, to both the character Sheldon and to the Sheldon fanciers. 

It didn’t seem to hurt the ratings though. People swallowed it all. Makes me realize how tiny and lacking influence the L/P cohort must have been. Sheldon was a juggernaut, and not in the Marvel comic sense.

 

I totally concur with your post. It's like you're reading my mind!

2 hours ago, snowflake79 said:

I am one of those Lenny's. And I stand by it.

I disagree

Edited by chucky

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16 hours ago, Mario D. said:

Agree with you totally.  And I think the worse image of him being an overgrown toddler is when Penny and Leonard got married and they had to endure living with Sheldon because he could not bear living alone.

Leonard was ready to kick him out. Penny is the one who said he could stay. I always thought it should have been the other way around, if it had to be at all.

 

12 hours ago, chucky said:

I believe Leonard is responsible as well. He never made Sheldon do anything, he just did everything for him.

Leonard did accept being Sheldon's go-to guy and very seldom rebelled. He did a few times, but not enough.

 

6 hours ago, Nogravitasatall said:

It didn’t seem to hurt the ratings though. People swallowed it all. Makes me realise how tiny and lacking influence the L/P cohort must have been. Sheldon was a juggernaut, and not in the Marvel comic sense.

I thought this all along and took a lot of flak for it, but it's true. But part of it is, from my perspective, that as large part of the L/P cohort as you put it, were happy with any crumb they got thrown. The smallest thing was latched onto as a hopeful sign, when it was clear to me that Lenny was never going to be the show's focal point. It's one of the reasons i never got deeply into it.

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5 minutes ago, Die Zimtzicke said:

Leonard did accept being Sheldon's go-to guy and very seldom rebelled. He did a few times, but not enough.

 

Not nearly enough!

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28 minutes ago, Die Zimtzicke said:

Leonard was ready to kick him out. Penny is the one who said he could stay. I always thought it should have been the other way around, if it had to be at all.

It also took me a little longer to evaluate this strange decision. But I just classified it as one of the many (in the sense of the show-runners) "tactical ruses".

28 minutes ago, Die Zimtzicke said:

I thought this all along and took a lot of flak for it, but it's true. But part of it is, from my perspective, that as large part of the L/P cohort as you put it, were happy with any crumb they got thrown. The smallest thing was latched onto as a hopeful sign, when it was clear to me that Lenny was never going to be the show's focal point. It's one of the reasons i never got deeply into it.

I recommend to read the Shamy-threads of earlier days. There you can see how a survival strategy can be built within your own fandom. 😊

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1 hour ago, Die Zimtzicke said:

Leonard was ready to kick him out. Penny is the one who said he could stay. I always thought it should have been the other way around, if it had to be at all.

 

Leonard did accept being Sheldon's go-to guy and very seldom rebelled. He did a few times, but not enough.

 

I thought this all along and took a lot of flak for it, but it's true. But part of it is, from my perspective, that as large part of the L/P cohort as you put it, were happy with any crumb they got thrown. The smallest thing was latched onto as a hopeful sign, when it was clear to me that Lenny was never going to be the show's focal point. It's one of the reasons i never got deeply into it.

I think it’s a matter of when you get on board and what you get on board for. It’s a subjective judgement. And rooting for the story to go on when it doesn’t is pretty familiar to me. So many shows I thought were great or interesting died prematurely.  Firefly of course is a prime exemplar of the phenomenon. 

But people like what they like. Sheldon, to me, became a meaner, but intellectual, Biff Tanner, yet a still a bit of a sook along with it. Not appealing to me. And he initially had Leonard’s back. But that went away. He just took stuff. And Leonard rolled with it. Then Penny tended to take Sheldon’s side. Sucky.

All done because if they didn’t then the show ended. 

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8 hours ago, Nogravitasatall said:

I feel Penny and Leonard were both pretty sucky to each other in order to coddle Sheldon. The show spent a long time persuading me that they really needed and wanted each other - hence the angst and drama of the season 4, the Priya digression,  the Penny/Raj debacle, and then Penny and Leonard 2.0 - followed by what... seven season of enabling Sheldon while disparaging one another. They never or rarely had any fun that we saw, they just existed as props for gags about Sheldon. Penny fawned over Sheldon and rarely stood with Leonard against him. I kept hoping for better and hung around because of that hope.

And what did I get for staying... the frakkin’ “boat kiss” cliffhanger. Then they served up the almost unnatural cohabitation with Sheldon, which was just ludicrous pandering, to both the character Sheldon and to the Sheldon fanciers. 

It didn’t seem to hurt the ratings though. People swallowed it all. Makes me realise how tiny and lacking influence the L/P cohort must have been. Sheldon was a juggernaut, and not in the Marvel comic sense.

 

I agree with everything you say, but couldn't tptb come up with any better plotlines than to have as you say "an unnatural cohabitation" with Sheldon. Even in "Friends" the main characters lived in separate apartments.   And they let this living arrangement go on for over a year not just for a little while as Penny suggested when she caved in to Sheldon's whining.

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7 minutes ago, Mario D. said:

but couldn't tptb come up with any better plot lines than to have as you say "an unnatural cohabitation" with Sheldon.

The writers were too damn lazy to write different plot lines.

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1 hour ago, Tensor said:

As Nograv put it, it depends on when and what you got involved with.  I started right at the beginning, identified with Leonard and Penny (because of me and my wife) and at that time, the focal point was Sheldon and Penny, pulling  Leonard in different directions  (and as an example, The Nerdvana Annihilation  was an example showing Penny winning).  That stayed right on through season three.  In season's four through six, it was no longer the focal point, but the focal points were  much more evenly spread out.  Starting in season seven, and lasting until the end, it was Sheldon and Shamy that were the focal points.  So, if you came in after season five or six, yeah, them not being the focal point was pretty obvious.  

As far as the writers, I hate to say lazy, but, when they found it more interesting and easier to write one thing, mainly or peripherally, and pretty much limit writing everything else to a minimum, because its not as interesting and  harder to write, it pretty much boils down to not wanting to work at it, so yeah,  lazy might fit here. 

Lazy, in my opinion, is too nice of a word. 

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11 hours ago, veejay said:

It also took me a little longer to evaluate this strange decision. But I just classified it as one of the many (in the sense of the show-runners) "tactical ruses".

I recommend to read the Shamy-threads of earlier days. There you can see how a survival strategy can be built within your own fandom. 😊

Before I withdrew myself from that thread for the benefit of all - because if you can’t say something nice, then stay on the series thread - I noted the various grasped straws detailed analyses, like the code embedded in the colours of tea cups (but maybe there was one; Howard’s alien pins had a deeper meaning, said a costumer, but I never discovered what) . In the long run it worked out fine for those fans but at the time (2013?) lots of extraordinary claims were made without the requisite extraordinary evidence. That’s fandom, isn’t it?

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