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[Spoilers] Season 12 Discussion Thread

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Hi guys, I am flashing in to give you something back. In order to cope with the loss of the show I made a little contingency plan for myself. There are so many elements of the show / stories worth exploring that I think that anyone who liked it will find something for themselves. In my case it is learning more about comics. I have been starting with the DC universe and are now watching the Flash TV show. I cannot tell you how much I like like it. While watching it I understand more and more why Sheldon liked the character so much and besides any BBT relations I think the show is truly good. After the Flash I will probably watch Arrow and so forth goes the list. I am sure that after exploring a lot of my list I will revisit Big Bang and have probably even more fun than ever. Anyway I hope this helps a little in dealing with the situation as it is. Will flash out now again. Live long and prosper 😊🖖

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11 hours ago, veejay said:

I recommend to read the Shamy-threads of earlier days. There you can see how a survival strategy can be built within your own fandom.

It's not really my fandom although I enjoyed most of it. I was never totally fixated on it and I was definitely NOT a teacup speculation person. I liked ensemble plots best, like Raj's scavenger hunt, the parking spot escalation and things like that. It's why I think season six was the best season. But they didn't need a survival strategy because the writers wanted to play with their new toy to the exclusion of all others and to a lot of people it showed. And when they did do something with Penny and Leonard so much of it seemed so stupid!

 

2 hours ago, Tensor said:

So, if you came in after season five or six, yeah, them not being the focal point was pretty obvious.  

I was there all along, although I quit for a short time at the end of season one and had to pick what I'd missed back up in the summer. I didn't see the uniqueness of the show at first. I was on the IMDB boards then and it wasn't a good place to be a lot of the time, plus the idea of nerdy guys and a busty blond...yawn. A foreign guy friend who has trouble with girls...yawn. A pervy friend to the nicer guy...yawn. But Sheldon was something I'd never seen before and after a short break the show clicked for me.

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35 minutes ago, Die Zimtzicke said:

And when they did do something with Penny and Leonard so much of it seemed so stupid!

Agreed

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13 hours ago, Die Zimtzicke said:

Lenny was never going to be the show's focal point. It's one of the reasons i never got deeply into it.

It wasn't until I found this board between seasons eight and nine that I realised there were Lenny and Shamy factions and that they were taken seriously.  It had never occurred to me there was going to be one focal couple, nor that it would be Lenny, considering there were three others.  Lenny'd looked to me over the years since 2007  a typical American-sitcom on-again off-again until-they-were-permanently-on couple ; they were the least strange and the most stable.  Raj's and Sheldon's personality issues inhibited them more than anything Leonard ever suffered from. It was interesting to me to watch them all grow up and meet their other halves and settle down or not as they matured.

Of all the women's issues Amy's were the most challenging to overcome. And they put her with Sheldon. It's always struck me that if there was an audience sector that was tuning in to see how the pairings were developing, the couple most intriguing would be Shamy but that the others' peculiarities attracted interest in their own ways.

I can see the appeal of Lenny's relative normality. Here's a tart with a heart who reforms and commits to man who has a brilliant mind and what's more who loves and appreciates her. Here's a man who sets his heart on a woman from the day he first sees her. He looks elsewhere when he thinks his chances with her are over but eventually realises she's still the only one and keeps trying. His persistence pays off and we see him happy for five more years with the woman he wooed and won.

If Raj hadn't messed about, could he have found happiness ?  That Howard so suddenly reduced his creepiness by 80 % was a big surprise. Did Bernadette copy his mother in order to hang on to him ? What did she see in him in the first place to make her do so ?

I wonder if any rivalry between fans was intended by the writers and was it just on this board or widespread around the world ? 

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1 hour ago, Die Zimtzicke said:

It's not really my fandom although I enjoyed most of it. I was never totally fixated on it and I was definitely NOT a teacup speculation person. I liked ensemble plots best, like Raj's scavenger hunt, the parking spot escalation and things like that. It's why I think season six was the best season. But they didn't need a survival strategy because the writers wanted to play with their new toy to the exclusion of all others and to a lot of people it showed. And when they did do something with Penny and Leonard so much of it seemed so stupid!

 

I was there all along, although I quit for a short time at the end of season one and had to pick what I'd missed back up in the summer. I didn't see the uniqueness of the show at first. I was on the IMDB boards then and it wasn't a good place to be a lot of the time, plus the idea of nerdy guys and a busty blond...yawn. A foreign guy friend who has trouble with girls...yawn. A pervy friends to the nicer guy...yawn. But Sheldon was something I'd never seen before and after a short break the show clicked for me.

 

... as a bloke who once went to an Australian comic-con and only later realised he could have passed as Leonard ( except for the hair). And I won’t describe my wife... other than to say she was blonde when I met her.

Some people don’t like olives and some people like surströmming. It’s a big world. I would argue Sheldon was unique on TV.  Then latterly he became like many other masculine stereotypes. We’ve seen lots of demanding men who exploit the goodwill and needs of those around them. Some even not characters on TV.

When he decried relationships he was special. Then they changed him to chase the long run. That’s when he lost most of his appeal for me, though it was a gradual process. Later, when I saw him as just petulant, I lost tolerance. But I hung in, hoping for Leonard and Penny to best him. And, if you look at it without considering the accumulated bad acts, it is funny. The season 12 gag with the hot dogs in New York, that I have seen, was chuckle worthy. The unhappy new bride, working around him, not so much. She knew what she was in for. It wasn’t a surprise.

But it’s all moot now. I’m just kicking through the ashes.

22 minutes ago, joyceraye said:

It wasn't until I found this board between seasons eight and nine that I realised there were Lenny and Shamy factions and that they were taken seriously.  It had never occurred to me there was going to be one focal couple, nor that it would be Lenny, considering there were three others.  Lenny'd looked to me over the years since 2007  a typical American-sitcom on-again off-again until-they-were-permanently-on couple ; they were the least strange and the most stable.  Raj's and Sheldon's personality issues inhibited them more than anything Leonard ever suffered from. It was interesting to me to watch them all grow up and meet their other halves and settle down or not as they matured.

Of all the women's issues Amy's were the most challenging to overcome. And they put her with Sheldon. It's always struck me that if there was an audience sector that was tuning in to see how the pairings were developing, the couple most intriguing would be Shamy but that the others' peculiarities attracted interest in their own ways.

I can see the appeal of Lenny's relative normality. Here's a tart with a heart who reforms and commits to man who has a brilliant mind and what's more who loves and appreciates her. Here's a man who sets his heart on a woman from the day he first sees her. He looks elsewhere when he thinks his chances with her are over but eventually realises she's still the only one and keeps trying. His persistence pays off and we see him happy for five more years with the woman he wooed and won.

If Raj hadn't messed about, could he have found happiness ?  That Howard so suddenly reduced his creepiness by 80 % was a big surprise. Did Bernadette copy his mother in order to hang on to him ? What did she see in him in the first place to make her do so ?

I wonder if any rivalry between fans was intended by the writers and was it just on this board or widespread around the world ? 

It drives engagement to have teams. Cricket demonstration of batting techniques aren’t riveting at all. I’d say there are many ancillary payoffs to rivalries.

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3 hours ago, Die Zimtzicke said:

plus the idea of nerdy guys and a busty blond...yawn. A foreign guy friend who has trouble with girls...yawn. A pervy friend to the nicer guy...yawn. But Sheldon was something I'd never seen before and after a short break the show clicked for me.

See, Leonard and Penny I relate to, simply because of the similarity of the progression of their relationship, to my wife and I's own.   As for Sheldon, I saw him as the crazy or odd one, which has a history on Television.     Mork on Mork and Mindy, Latka (who also had his own oddball relationship) and Reverend Jim from Taxi are better examples, as is Kramer on Seinfeld, along with a few others not quite as extreme, so I never did see what was so different about him on television.    I really didn't have a problem with Sheldon, until after The 43 Peculiarity, when he used a chicken pecking for corn as a metaphor for, and mimed the head motion of, a blowjob.   His life as an unknowing and unaware innocent, which they continued to push, became unbelievable

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Sheldon was just a hybrid of Niles Crane from Fraiser imo.

The show did become harder to suspend disbelief the more it went on. 

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6 hours ago, Die Zimtzicke said:

It's not really my fandom although I enjoyed most of it. I was never totally fixated on it and I was definitely NOT a teacup speculation person. I liked ensemble plots best, like Raj's scavenger hunt, the parking spot escalation and things like that. It's why I think season six was the best season. But they didn't need a survival strategy because the writers wanted to play with their new toy to the exclusion of all others and to a lot of people it showed. And when they did do something with Penny and Leonard so much of it seemed so stupid!

Oh, I know. The "you" was used to refer to people in general. 🙂
I can follow your point of view very well. Also for me Season 6 is/was the funniest and most convincing in the entire picture (as a strong ensemble of the whole cast). After that, it became more and more difficult for me to make credible comparisons with this benchmark.

(Remember this kind of a mess?)

gr_74.gif.1671d8276b1aa97447be60d77dab53d7.gif

 

 

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6 hours ago, Tensor said:

 I really didn't have a problem with Sheldon, until after The 43 Peculiarity, when he used a chicken pecking for corn as a metaphor for, and mimed the head motion of, a blowjob.   His life as an unknowing and unaware innocent, which they continued to push, became unbelievable

So true  :cool:

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For me, Sheldon is/was a bully. Sure he got treated unfairly often, but the “attacks” on him were fir me never quite as venomous as what he rushed out. Demeaning other’s accomplishments and intelligence (even his future wife’s). “Slut-shaming” his best friends love and later wife (and supposedly also his good friend) and at points nearly rooting for the failure of their relationship was and remains an extreme turn-off for me.


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If I ever met Nogravitasatall we will have to hug solely for the three stooges picture. My husband and I have been huge fans since we were kids. The most cherished gift I ever gave him in his opinion was probably Moe Howard's signature.

9 hours ago, Nogravitasatall said:

But it’s all moot now. I’m just kicking through the ashes.

So true.

 

7 hours ago, Tensor said:

His life as an unknowing and unaware innocent, which they continued to push, became unbelievable

I didn't think they portrayed him like that ever. He made comments about sex from the start. He knew what it was and could make snide dirty comments from the start. They just were not overt like Howard's.

 

7 hours ago, Tensor said:

As for Sheldon, I saw him as the crazy or odd one, which has a history on Television.     Mork on Mork and Mindy, Latka (who also had his own oddball relationship) and Reverend Jim from Taxi are better examples, as is Kramer on Seinfeld, along with a few others not quite as extreme, so I never did see what was so different about him on television.  

I never saw him as crazy and as for your other examples, he was not an alien like Mork (and nowhere near as exhausting to watch as Robin Williams made Mork). I was not a huge Taxi fan although I watched it occasionally and I loathed Seinfield and I loved TBBT. So I don't know how to relate to your comment. I really thought Jim was playing him on the autism spectrum, even though they would not say so. He was smart, and could say things sharply to the point but had no social skills and if he went off it was for a reason, even if the reason was only specific to him. But I have tons of experience with autism so maybe that's why I saw him that way.  Just the recall of football information and his fascination with trains are two examples I thought that. I knew an autistic guy who knew everything you could ever think to ask him about trains and had timetables memorized, and since then I have heard of other people on the spectrum into trains or sports details.  

A 24 year old autistic girl I used to teach went to sleep last Saturday and never woke up and I am absolutely not going to be able to go to the wake because of other plans involving a lot of people that I can't change and it is just hurting me so badly. She was a very special soul, even though, I have to admit, some days were not good and and as much as I liked working with her she could be exasperating.

1 hour ago, hokie3457 said:

Demeaning other’s accomplishments and intelligence (even his future wife’s). “Slut-shaming” his best friends love and later wife (and supposedly also his good friend) and at points nearly rooting for the failure of their relationship was and remains an extreme turn-off for me.

But an autistic person would do that and not even realize it was a turn off to others. They would be just be blurting what they thought or whatever came into their head without thinking of how it might come across to others. They don't understand friendship as other people do.

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But an autistic person would do that and not even realize it was a turn off to others. They would be just be blurting what they thought or whatever came into their head without thinking of how it might come across to others. They don't understand friendship as other people do.


Perhaps, but since there were denials that Sheldon was on the spectrum I have to take their word for it. I understand that a character such as Sheldon can be an inspiration for many people, but for me, because of these statements , he is still a bully.


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1 hour ago, hokie3457 said:

he is still a bully.

He's a bully that is allowed to get away with it by the gang.

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14 hours ago, Tensor said:

See, Leonard and Penny I relate to, simply because of the similarity of the progression of their relationship, to my wife and I's own.   As for Sheldon, I saw him as the crazy or odd one, which has a history on Television.     Mork on Mork and Mindy, Latka (who also had his own oddball relationship) and Reverend Jim from Taxi are better examples, as is Kramer on Seinfeld, along with a few others not quite as extreme, so I never did see what was so different about him on television.    I really didn't have a problem with Sheldon, until after The 43 Peculiarity, when he used a chicken pecking for corn as a metaphor for, and mimed the head motion of, a blowjob.   His life as an unknowing and unaware innocent, which they continued to push, became unbelievable

In this scene of the "43 Peculiarity"  Leonard  was trusting Penny with her friend even though he presumed he was hitting on her until Sheldon raised that metaphor you mentioned and got Leonard thinking and that is when he followed Penny's friend down the stairs.  Do not know why he ever listened to what Sheldon had to say as it was never good advice........except for Shrodinger's Cat

6 hours ago, hokie3457 said:


But an autistic person would do that and not even realize it was a turn off to others. They would be just be blurting what they thought or whatever came into their head without thinking of how it might come across to others. They don't understand friendship as other people do.


Perhaps, but since there were denials that Sheldon was on the spectrum I have to take their word for it. I understand that a character such as Sheldon can be an inspiration for many people, but for me, because of these statements , he is still a bully.


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One particular scene that made me think about this was I believe in the "Gorilla Dissolution"  when Raj and Sheldon are talking after Raj sees Emily with a date. Sheldon asks Raj if he had sex with Emily yet  He says no but you haven't had sex with Amy either.  Sheldon replies that in their relationship agreement Amy can't either. It just seemed to me that Sheldon knew alot more than he ever let on and manipulated many situations.

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I have always seen Leonard and Penny as one true pairing. That's why I followed them so hard. Nowadays I tend to see them as the loving couple off screen that we never saw. Forget the BS fed for 18 mins each week. I see through what i was meant to see when the show was on. So yeah, I met them for the first time in S1, I saw the love. Leonard and Penny were broken. Penny's heart had been lied to, broken, lost and alone, but somehow Leonard still saw through all that. He saw the sweet and innocent girl that she used to be. Penny saw so much in him and would not allow Leonard to stay where he had fallen in life, due to his traumatic childhood. I think Penny is grateful for leonard believing in her and loving her like never before. With Leonard, Penny found herself again and could never have accomplished so much without Leonard.
Leonard and Penny had one life to live and just one love to give. They chose each other. They are lost without each other.
 Their love. That love is each other.

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16 hours ago, Die Zimtzicke said:

If I ever met Nogravitasatall we will have to hug solely for the three stooges picture. 

All we did was have lunch, a beer, and  talk for about two hours.  Thoroughly enjoyable.  

Quote

 

I didn't think they portrayed him like that ever. He made comments about sex from the start. He knew what it was and could make snide dirty comments from the start. They just were not overt like Howard's.

You mean like "What's a Hickey?"  Or his failure to understand "Blow by blow?"  Anyone who compares oral sex to a chicken pecking for corn, and then mimes the action would know what a hickey was, and would understand "Give it to me", or "Blow by blow."  Things he claimed not to know about.  

 

Quote

 

I never saw him as crazy and as for your other examples, he was not an alien like Mork (and nowhere near as exhausting to watch as Robin Williams made Mork). I was not a huge Taxi fan although I watched it occasionally and I loathed Seinfield and I loved TBBT. So I don't know how to relate to your comment.

The comment simply pointed out that the character of Sheldon wasn't so rare and unique on television.    I used the crazy in a generic sense, so you not understanding my point on the is my fault.  By crazy, I meant these characters were the odd one (which I also used).  I simply saw Sheldon as the odd one, and there isn't anything unique about that.   While his love, and knowledge, of trains could be indicative of being on the spectrum, the football information I don't think is, it's more due to his eidetic memory.   

Quote

A 24 year old autistic girl I used to teach went to sleep last Saturday and never woke up and I am absolutely not going to be able to go to the wake because of other plans involving a lot of people that I can't change and it is just hurting me so badly. She was a very special soul, even though, I have to admit, some days were not good and and as much as I liked working with her she could be exasperating.

I'm sorry to hear this Die, my condolences.  

Quote

But an autistic person would do that and not even realize it was a turn off to others. They would be just be blurting what they thought or whatever came into their head without thinking of how it might come across to others. They don't understand friendship as other people do.

But, here we run into the conflict the writers have with their not declaring him on the spectrum.  Which is made worse by the claim of an eidetic memory.  He's been told quite a few times that his behavior is not acceptable.   If he's not on the spectrum, then his continued ill-mannered behavior, after being told the behavior is wrong, means he's doing it on purpose or just to be mean (see "Itchy Brain").   But, even if he is on the spectrum, he still has the eidetic memory, so he knows the behavior is wrong, yet he does it anyway.   It's a sticky wicket in that corner the writers painted themselves into.    

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1 hour ago, Tensor said:

All we did was have lunch, a beer, and  talk for about two hours.  Thoroughly enjoyable.  

You mean like "What's a Hickey?"  Or his failure to understand "Blow by blow?"  Anyone who compares oral sex to a chicken pecking for corn, and then mimes the action would know what a hickey was, and would understand "Give it to me", or "Blow by blow."  Things he claimed to to know about.  

 

The comment simply pointed out that the character of Sheldon wasn't so rare and unique on television.    I used the crazy in a generic sense, so you not understanding my point on the is my fault.  By crazy, I meant these characters were the odd one (which I also used).  I simply saw Sheldon as the odd one, and there isn't anything unique about that.   While his love, and knowledge, of trains could be indicative of being on the spectrum, the football information I don't think is, it's more due to his eidetic memory.   

I'm sorry to hear this Die, my condolences.  

But, here we run into the conflict the writers have with their not declaring him on the spectrum.  Which is made worse by the claim of an eidetic memory.  He's been told quite a few times that his behavior is not acceptable.   If he's not on the spectrum, then his continued ill-mannered behavior, after being told the behavior is wrong, means he's doing it on purpose or just to be mean (see "Itchy Brain").   But, even if he is on the spectrum, he still has the eidetic memory, so he knows the behavior is wrong, yet he does it anyway.   It's a sticker wicket in that corner the writers painted themselves into.    

Agreed. After repeating said behavior after being told it was wrong, means he did on purpose to hurt his so called friends.

2 hours ago, Tonstar17 said:

I have always seen Leonard and Penny as one true pairing. That's why I followed them so hard. Nowadays I tend to see them as the loving couple off screen that we never saw. Forget the BS fed for 18 mins each week. I see through what i was meant to see when the show was on. So yeah, I met them for the first time in S1, I saw the love. Leonard and Penny were broken. Penny's heart had been lied to, broken, lost and alone, but somehow Leonard still saw through all that. He saw the sweet and innocent girl that she used to be. Penny saw so much in him and would not allow Leonard to stay where he had fallen in life, due to his traumatic childhood. I think Penny is grateful for leonard believing in her and loving her like never before. With Leonard, Penny found herself again and could never have accomplished so much without Leonard.
Leonard and Penny had one life to live and just one love to give. They chose each other. They are lost without each other.
 Their love. That love is each other.

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So very true!

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13 hours ago, hokie3457 said:

For me, Sheldon is/was a bully. Sure he got treated unfairly often, but the “attacks” on him were fir me never quite as venomous as what he rushed out. Demeaning other’s accomplishments and intelligence (even his future wife’s). “Slut-shaming” his best friends love and later wife (and supposedly also his good friend) and at points nearly rooting for the failure of their relationship was and remains an extreme turn-off for me.

For the sake of learning something from some rebuttal, I’m going to walk out on a limb and say there was a certain moral ambiguity or greyness, or else some crass exploitation at work, by not letting him be responsible for his actions. They let the diagnosis stand at “I’m not crazy, my mother had me tested”. So ok, not crazy. Therefore competent. Therefore open to consequence. 

I liked him better as homo novus. Or like a less benign Uncle Martin (which was on TV here yesterday - broadcast TV. WTF). The alien observer. As a person, if he’s not conscious of the effect of his choices, is it fair or right to make him the butt of the jokes. If they had labelled him, maybe it would have been morally better. Claim his status. Be a standard bearer.

Maybe not a 12 season run in that, though.

As a regular guy, he certainly wasn’t good to his friends; “mad, bad, and dangerous to know” as they say. As a sitcom content generator, obviously awesome.

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8 minutes ago, Nogravitasatall said:

For the sake of learning something from some rebuttal, I’m going to walk out on a limb and say there was a certain moral ambiguity or greyness, or else some crass exploitation at work, by not letting him be responsible for his actions. They let the diagnosis stand at “I’m not crazy, my mother had me tested”. So ok, not crazy. Therefore competent. Therefore open to consequence. 

I liked him better as homo novus. Or like a less benign Uncle Martin (which was on TV here yesterday - broadcast TV. WTF). The alien observer. As a person, if he’s not conscious of the effect of his choices, is it fair or right to make him the butt of the jokes. If they had labelled him, maybe it would have been morally better. Claim his status. Be a standard bearer.

Maybe not a 12 season run in that, though.

As a regular guy, he certainly wasn’t good to his friends; “mad, bad, and dangerous to know” as they say. As a sitcom content generator, obviously awesome.

You can describe it however you like, to me he was mean, inconsiderate, obnoxious and was in need of a complete ass kicking.

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20 minutes ago, chucky said:

You can describe it however you like, to me he was mean, inconsiderate, obnoxious and was in need of a complete ass kicking.

I know what you mean, but in one framing it’s unclear that he would have understood why he got the beating. :) 

He had that discussion with his mum about being beaten up by “the neighbour kids”. He thought they felt inferior and threatened by his intellect. His mum knew it wasn’t that, and we laughed when she said it. He just couldn’t perceive it. He’s not aware of the consequences of his actions. Which then raises the question of is it moral to use his difference for humour, when he is unaware of the joke.

Or he’s just an arsehole and is aware. In which case he deserves some consequences. I do favour that view.  

They played it both ways. Which maybe was a ethically challenged artistic dodge for the sake of getting a long run.  Artistic or not, probably still dodgy. All the way to the bank.

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9 minutes ago, Nogravitasatall said:

I know what you mean, but in one framing it’s unclear that he would have understood why he got the beating. :) 

He had that discussion with his mum about being beaten up by “the neighbour kids”. He thought they felt inferior and threatened by his intellect. His mum knew it wasn’t that, and we laughed when she said it. He just couldn’t perceive it. He’s not aware of the consequences of his actions. Which then raises the question of is it moral to use his difference for humour, when he is unaware of the joke.

Or he’s just an arsehole and is aware. In which case he deserves some consequences. I do favour that view.  

They played it both ways. Which maybe was a ethically challenged artistic dodge for the sake of getting a long run.  Artistic or not, probably still dodgy. All the way to the bank.

Be that as it may, he's deserving and in need of that butt kicking. Then it could be explained to him why he got the butt kicking and why more could be coming. 😃

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6 hours ago, Tonstar17 said:

I have always seen Leonard and Penny as one true pairing. That's why I followed them so hard. Nowadays I tend to see them as the loving couple off screen that we never saw. Forget the BS fed for 18 mins each week. I see through what i was meant to see when the show was on. So yeah, I met them for the first time in S1, I saw the love. Leonard and Penny were broken. Penny's heart had been lied to, broken, lost and alone, but somehow Leonard still saw through all that. He saw the sweet and innocent girl that she used to be. Penny saw so much in him and would not allow Leonard to stay where he had fallen in life, due to his traumatic childhood. I think Penny is grateful for leonard believing in her and loving her like never before. With Leonard, Penny found herself again and could never have accomplished so much without Leonard.
Leonard and Penny had one life to live and just one love to give. They chose each other. They are lost without each other.
 Their love. That love is each other.

fb5a99da982aeacf3a19a93943de6481.jpg

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Beautifully written and analyzed.

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2 hours ago, chucky said:

Be that as it may, he's deserving and in need of that butt kicking. Then it could be explained to him why he got the butt kicking and why more could be coming. 😃

I’d have been happy if Leonard and Penny had just left him on his own across the corridor, and if Leonard had explained why. The lesson would have lasted longer. But I understand the sentiment.

Penny also could have ju-jitsued him more by deploying his his mother. It wasn’t to be of course. And there won’t be a reboot. This is over. 

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2 hours ago, Nogravitasatall said:

t wasn’t to be of course. And there won’t be a reboot. This is over. 

True, but we can always wish for what could have been!

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7 hours ago, chucky said:

True, but we can always wish for what could have been!

I would think and hope that within a year or two they create a reunion show/episode special just to see how they progressed.  Of course it all depends on Chuck Lorre and if they all are available.

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