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[Spoilers] Season 12 Discussion Thread

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2 hours ago, chucky said:

 All I remember is Sheldon acting like a giant baby always getting his way. But then he acted that way with the gang trough out the entire 12 years of the show. Too bad they didn't write in a little reality with Sheldon getting his butt kicked like he did growing up. Too bad Mrs Riley's chicken wasn't around to chase Sheldon up a tree. I would have loved to seen that.

Sheldon and Amy get along great most of the time and when they have a disagreement they talk things out and also plan their futures together.

I, personally  like to watch the show to enjoy it, and have to say I've never wanted anything bad to happen to any of the characters. 

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5 hours ago, Die Zimtzicke said:

They never resolved Penny's issues about pregnancy. They just had her go out drinking with Sheldon and wind up pregnant. Those issues did not disappear as far as I'm concerned.

 

I don't think they are perfect. But they both got what they wanted and had discussed what they wanted and where they wanted to go with their lives and both pretty much agreed on it. And they have a lot in common, especially personality wise.

 I can agree with you on one thing  They did not fully explain why Penny did not want to have children. To me this was a major topic to explore before the finale but all we got was her assumed happiness on being pregnant.  However, Leonard and Penny seem to be in a happy place at the end and certainly do love each other. As far as Shamy goes Sheldon's speech at the end was a sort of revelation in his mind especially when his wife shocked him into realization about her and his friends tolerance of his insults, condescencion and obnoxiousness. But did he really accept this?  He loves his wife but yet belittles her with his relationship agreement often referring to it as being written to favor him and not as a partnership. To me marriage is a sacred partnership which Penny and Leonard seem to have without a written agreement.

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Remember, derogatory comments about other members are not allowed. 

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26 minutes ago, Mario D. said:

 I can agree with you on one thing  They did not fully explain why Penny did not want to have children. To me this was a major topic to explore before the finale but all we got was her assumed happiness on being pregnant.  However, Leonard and Penny seem to be in a happy place at the end and certainly do love each other. As far as Shamy goes Sheldon's speech at the end was a sort of revelation in his mind especially when his wife shocked him into realization about her and his friends tolerance of his insults, condescencion and obnoxiousness. But did he really accept this?  He loves his wife but yet belittles her with his relationship agreement often referring to it as being written to favor him and not as a partnership. To me marriage is a sacred partnership which Penny and Leonard seem to have without a written agreement.

Um...I remember an episode very reluctantly and with all my disapproval (S10/The Romance Recalibration):

L: So we thought it would useful…

n_204.gif.448baa6aeaafce92e574c9072825ad40.gif/

L: …would you please help us make a Relationship Agreement? 🙄 /sigh!

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6 hours ago, Die Zimtzicke said:

They never resolved Penny's issues about pregnancy. They just had her go out drinking with Sheldon and wind up pregnant. Those issues did not disappear as far as I'm concerned.

I'm wondering, what, in the last episode, makes you think Penny didn't work out those issues?   

 

6 hours ago, Die Zimtzicke said:

 

I don't think they are perfect. But they both got what they wanted and had discussed what they wanted and where they wanted to go with their lives and both pretty much agreed on it. And they have a lot in common, especially personality wise.

I didn't say you thought they were perfect.  Like you, I said most fans.  As I mentioned in the rest of the post, the same words you used to describe Lenny, can be used to describe all the couples, albeit with different examples.   All of the couples have problems, and there are examples for all the couples to illustrate those problems, just as there are counter-examples to refute those problems.  Along with examples to show each of the couples truly love each other

1 minute ago, veejay said:

Um...I remember an episode very reluctantly and with all my disapproval (S10/The Romance Recalibration):

Which the writers promptly ignored in the very next episode.  So, do they actually use it, or is this just another case of inconsistency by the writers?

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42 minutes ago, veejay said:

Um...I remember an episode very reluctantly and with all my disapproval (S10/The Romance Recalibration):

L: So we thought it would useful…

n_204.gif.448baa6aeaafce92e574c9072825ad40.gif/

L: …would you please help us make a Relationship Agreement? 🙄 /sigh!

To me that was a disgusting and useless episode!

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47 minutes ago, Tensor said:

I'm wondering, what, in the last episode, makes you think Penny didn't work out those issues?   

Those issues in addition to a plethora of others. I have no doubt that there is someone on here that could provide a list of unresolved issues that would be quite extensive. All of the characters had things take place throughout the run of the show that were never fully, or even partially resolved. This seemed to be the preferred mode of operations for the writers. 

We do know that Penny quite demonstrably expressed her disinterest in having children. No reason given. Then, once she accidentally becomes pregnant, she changes her mind. Some are unhappy that this didn't play out in the episodic TBBT world. I understand that. It might have been fun to watch the Lenny dynamic play out. Personally, I would at least have liked to see the moment Penny informed Leonard she was expecting. Instead, we missed another important moment in the Lenny relationship cycle.

As for the oft repeated mantra of "If it didn't happen on screen I don't accept it/believe it/care about it",etc. Taking that view of things there are any number of things in the series that fall into doubt/non-acceptance. How did Bernadette conceive not once, but twice? We accept it was through physical relations with Howard. Did Dave Underhill really try to take naked pictures of Penny? Did Howard actually drop Raj's iPhone in a urinal? We did not see any of these things happen, yet we accept that they did. An episodic sitcom with an average of 22-23 minutes of program time cannot possibly air every aspect of the characters lives. Some are simply revealed through dialogue. 

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3 minutes ago, HeWolf said:

 

As for the oft repeated mantra of "If it didn't happen on screen I don't accept it/believe it/care about it",etc. Taking that view of things there are any number of things in the series that fall into doubt/non-acceptance. How did Bernadette conceive not once, but twice? We accept it was through physical relations with Howard. Did Dave Underhill really try to take naked pictures of Penny? Did Howard actually drop Raj's iPhone in a urinal? We did not see any of these things happen, yet we accept that they did. An episodic sitcom with an average of 22-23 minutes of program time cannot possibly air every aspect of the characters lives. Some are simply revealed through dialogue. 

I totally agree. There is no possible way we can see everything played out in their lives in a 20 minute sitcom. We have to accept things happening off screen truly happened.

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1 hour ago, HeWolf said:

Those issues in addition to a plethora of others.

snip

Some are simply revealed through dialogue. 

 

Oh, I have no doubt that there are issues.  But Die was of the opinion that the  issues didn't go away.  But, all we have to go on, is her behavior in the final episode, and I don't see any regret or unhappiness by Penny, so obviously, those issues went away, for Penny.   Was she unhappy when she first found out, the came to be happy with it?  Did she change her mind, again, and decide she wanted kids?  Did she change her mind after that last episode?  We don't know any of what happened, only that she doesn't exhibit any regret or problems with her being pregnant, in fact, she seems happy with it.   If someone doesn't believe the issues went away, there has to be a reason for that, and since we only had her actions in the final, and Penny doesn't seem to have any of those issues. That's why I asked.   

Now, there could be unhappiness with not exploring either the changes or what happened after they found out.   But, none of that can be known.  All we have is her actions in the final. 

Quote

"If it didn't happen on screen I don't accept it/believe it/care about it",etc.

Yeah, imagine how constipated some of them  have to be, to not take a crap for 12 years.  

 

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I’m a visual guy and tired watching a TV-Show to expect something off-camera. I know pretty well a weekly half-hour sitcom doesn’t and also cannot show the entirety of anyone's life. My expectation just need a bit more than a constant imagination, though. That's the damn off-screen problem for me. 🙂

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1 hour ago, Tensor said:

 

Oh, I have no doubt that there are issues.  But Die was of the opinion that the  issues didn't go away.  But, all we have to go on, is her behavior in the final episode, and I don't see any regret or unhappiness by Penny, so obviously, those issues went away, for Penny.   Was she unhappy when she first found out, the came to be happy with it?  Did she change her mind, again, and decide she wanted kids?  Did she change her mind after that last episode?  We don't know any of what happened, only that she doesn't exhibit any regret or problems with her being pregnant, in fact, she seems happy with it.   If someone doesn't believe the issues went away, there has to be a reason for that, and since we only had her actions in the final, and Penny doesn't seem to have any of those issues. That's why I asked.   

Now, there could be unhappiness with not exploring either the changes or what happened after they found out.   But, none of that can be known.  All we have is her actions in the final. 

Yeah, imagine how constipated some of them  have to be, to not take a crap for 12 years.  

 

Totally agreed.

9 minutes ago, veejay said:

I’m a visual guy and tired watching a TV-Show to expect something off-camera. I know pretty well a weekly half-hour sitcom doesn’t and also cannot show the entirety of anyone's life. My expectation just need a bit more than a constant imagination, though. That's the damn off-screen problem for me. 🙂

I feel the same way. But TPTB and the writers were more concerned with Shamy's Nobel than anything Lenny. Unless they were needed for Shamy's needs.

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1 hour ago, shell said:

I totally agree. There is no possible way we can see everything played out in their lives in a 20 minute sitcom. We have to accept things happening off screen truly happened.

That's true enough, but I thought they really short-changed us over the pregnancy issue. There wasn't even  much offscreen let alone on screen.They might have thought they'd given us enough on screen with Bernadette and assumed we wouldn't want all that again. I don't think that's an excuse for giving us next to nothing, however. What they eventually said even off screen was far too little. The whole matter wasn't handled well at all IMHO. We saw Penny telling Amy,Bernie and Leonard that she wanted to be child-free. Off screen Leonard had been angry, according to what Penny told the other girls, and he phoned her father. We saw Leonard on screen show Sheldon how upset he was and off screen Sheldon must have told Amy.  There was a big enough deal made of Penny's attitude, upsetting a lot of the audience. We then got the whole Zack (censored) taking up time on and off screen. And then nothing about it for months on end.

Sheldon's response to the pregnancy news from Leonard was no different from what a normal person's would have been under the circumstances. A man whose wife has made it clear she doesn't want children tells his friend the wife is expecting. (What is the response supposed to be to that in the air on a public plane on the way to get your Nobel ? ) The friend does not stay to discuss that and without a fuss goes back to his seat. For someone who rarely knows how to behave he does what anybody would. Irrespective of what said friend was really thinking, the man gets angry at not being congratulated. What's the fracas ? The only excuse the man comes up with is 'Well now she does'. What ?

Penny's report of off screen conception activity elicits a silly 2012-Amy reaction and doesn't explain why she chose not to nip out to the pharmacy or raid her stock for a morning-after pill.  We could speculate she was unsure and decided to leave things to fate and the stars. But that's not enough. It would have been in-character years ago, but now ? Leaving us to think of their lives going on is one thing, leaving  us with a big gap is another.

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2 hours ago, joyceraye said:

Sheldon's response to the pregnancy news from Leonard was no different from what a normal person's would have been under the circumstances. A man whose wife has made it clear she doesn't want children tells his friend the wife is expecting. (What is the response supposed to be to that in the air on a public plane on the way to get your Nobel ? ) The friend does not stay to discuss that and without a fuss goes back to his seat. For someone who rarely knows how to behave he does what anybody would. Irrespective of what said friend was really thinking, the man gets angry at not being congratulated. What's the fracas ? The only excuse the man comes up with is 'Well now she does'. What ?

We saw two reactions on screen.  Sheldon's and Bernadette's.   Bernadette's was excited and happy,  So who is the normal person there, her's or Sheldon's?  I could have understood his saying something about Penny not wanting kids,  but to ignore it completely and just get up and leave, is not a normal reaction.  

2 hours ago, joyceraye said:

Penny's report of off screen conception activity elicits a silly 2012-Amy reaction and doesn't explain why she chose not to nip out to the pharmacy or raid her stock for a morning-after pill.  We could speculate she was unsure and decided to leave things to fate and the stars. But that's not enough. It would have been in-character years ago, but now ? Leaving us to think of their lives going on is one thing, leaving  us with a big gap is another.

This is one of the things I don't understand about someone saying the Penny was so dead set against having kids.  If Penny was so against having a baby, why didn't she take the morning after pill (or depending on her preference, the Abortion Pill)?   Either would have more than likely (above 95% according to studies) have prevented or ended the pregnancy.  Also, Medical Abortion is legal in California, so that would have been an option, if she was so against having kids.   If she did decided to leave things to fate, that doesn't indicate that she was all that set against kids, knowing becoming pregnant is a definite possibility.

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21 minutes ago, Tensor said:

We saw two reactions on screen.  Sheldon's and Bernadette's.   Bernadette's was excited and happy,  So who is the normal person there, her's or Sheldon's?  I could have understood his saying something about Penny not wanting kids,  but to ignore it completely and just get up and leave, is not a normal reaction.  

This is one of the things I don't understand about someone saying the Penny was so dead set against having kids.  If Penny was so against having a baby, why didn't she take the morning after pill (or depending on her preference, the Abortion Pill)?   Either would have more than likely (above 95% according to studies) have prevented or ended the pregnancy.  Also, Medical Abortion is legal in California, so that would have been an option, if she was so against having kids.   If she did decided to leave things to fate, that doesn't indicate that she was all that set against kids, knowing becoming pregnant is a definite possibility.

Gettin’ real there Tensor. 

It’s a dodge by the writers to have their cake (the dramatic conflict) and eat it too (a warm and fuzzy ending). 

It ain’t literature, are it. And yes, in a classically liberal democracy with no  eye out for the lurking theocrats, that’d be a scene. Leonard and Penny sitting at the kitchen table discussing her choices. But for the pre-teens on the couch with mum watching alongside, maybe it’s thought to be too much.

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4 hours ago, Nogravitasatall said:

Gettin’ real there Tensor. 

Yep

Quote

It’s a dodge by the writers to have their cake (the dramatic conflict) and eat it too (a warm and fuzzy ending). 

Oh, I know that.  But, by not taking that route, they, probably unintentionally,  show she was happy about becoming pregnant.  

Quote

It ain’t literature, are it. And yes, in a classically liberal democracy with no  eye out for the lurking theocrats, that’d be a scene. Leonard and Penny sitting at the kitchen table discussing her choices. But for the pre-teens on the couch with mum watching alongside, maybe it’s thought to be too much.

While sadly true in come circumstances, the fact that something like Game of Thrones, The Walking Dead, or Orange is the New Black, among others, is easily available, not to mention some of the dialog on TBBT, I don't see why it would be too much.  Also, I'm not sure that we qualify as a classically liberal democracy any longer.

 

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Posted (edited)
2 hours ago, Tensor said:

Yep

Oh, I know that.  But, by not taking that route, they, probably unintentionally,  show she was happy about becoming pregnant.  

While sadly true in come circumstances, the fact that something like Game of Thrones, The Walking Dead, or Orange is the New Black, among others, is easily available, not to mention some of the dialog on TBBT, I don't see why it would be too much.  Not to mention I'm not sure that we qualify as a classically liberal democracy any longer.

 

One’s thinking does crystallise when it’s not a hypothetical. I’m glad they’re happy with their unforced error. I’m sure it’s not uncommon.

And at least Leonard didn’t have to stick to a roster to get there. That’s nice. Again, the chafing. 

Edit. Re democracy. Um... well. Thoughts and prayers? 

Edited by Nogravitasatall
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4 minutes ago, Nogravitasatall said:

Edit. Re democracy. Um... well. Thoughts and prayers? 

Yeah, those are always appreciated and useful. /s 😛 

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18 hours ago, Tensor said:

I'm wondering, what, in the last episode, makes you think Penny didn't work out those issues?   

Because we didn't see any of her reasoning as to why she didn't want kids, never saw them discuss her issues with kids, didn't get to see her discovering she was pregnant, didn't get to see her telling Leonard and didn't see why she did a u-turn with her feelings when confronted with an unplanned pregnancy. Don't you think it would have been  better if Penny and Leonard had discussed ANY of this on screen where we could see it? And obviously I am not alone in feeling those issues should have been brought out on the show.

 

17 hours ago, HeWolf said:

As for the oft repeated mantra of "If it didn't happen on screen I don't accept it/believe it/care about it",etc. Taking that view of things there are any number of things in the series that fall into doubt/non-acceptance. How did Bernadette conceive not once, but twice? We accept it was through physical relations with Howard. Did Dave Underhill really try to take naked pictures of Penny? Did Howard actually drop Raj's iPhone in a urinal? We did not see any of these things happen, yet we accept that they did. An episodic sitcom with an average of 22-23 minutes of program time cannot possibly air every aspect of the characters lives. Some are simply revealed through dialogue. 

Did you really expect them to actually show Howardette having sex? Wasn't their physical attraction to each other enough? Do you really think Howard dropping Raj's phone in a urinal is as important a development as Penny's pregnancy? I agree with you that some things are a given but this was too important to leave everything connected with it off screen. Considering how many people wanted it so badly I can't understand why so many fans are happy with the crumbs they got tossed regarding this storyline. The donation crap with Zak got more screen time than anything to do with Lenny in the last season. I don't even like Lenny much and it bothers me. And it amazes me that I am the one defending what should have been.

 

11 hours ago, Nogravitasatall said:

But for the pre-teens on the couch with mum watching alongside, maybe it’s thought to be too much.

Again, we could go through two episodes about sperm donation but not discuss a pregnancy between two main characters?

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Posted (edited)
18 hours ago, joyceraye said:

the man gets angry at not being congratulated.

I don't think being congratulated was Leonard's reason for being upset. I believe he was upset because he just got up and left with no acknowledgement whatsoever. He could have said congratulations or that's a mistake or anything in between. Having a baby is a huge thing for his best friend. When he learns about the pregnancy, he just gets up and walks away happy Penny's not sick and will get everyone else sick.

3 hours ago, Die Zimtzicke said:

Because we didn't see any of her reasoning as to why she didn't want kids, never saw them discuss her issues with kids, didn't get to see her discovering she was pregnant, didn't get to see her telling Leonard and didn't see why she did a u-turn with her feelings when confronted with an unplanned pregnancy. Don't you think it would have been  better if Penny and Leonard had discussed ANY of this on screen where we could see it? And obviously I am not alone in feeling those issues should have been brought out on the show.

 

Simply put, TPTB and the writers were too concerned about the Nobel for shamy and didn't think the viewers would notice what you're talking about here! Or they didn't care. Either way the fans got screwed and left needing an explanation! 

Edited by chucky

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Posted (edited)
36 minutes ago, Die Zimtzicke said:

Because we didn't see any of her reasoning as to why she didn't want kids, never saw them discuss her issues with kids, didn't get to see her discovering she was pregnant, didn't get to see her telling Leonard and didn't see why she did a u-turn with her feelings when confronted with an unplanned pregnancy. Don't you think it would have been  better if Penny and Leonard had discussed ANY of this on screen where we could see it? And obviously I am not alone in feeling those issues should have been brought out on the show.

 

Did you really expect them to actually show Howardette having sex? Wasn't their physical attraction to each other enough? Do you really think Howard dropping Raj's phone in a urinal is as important a development as Penny's pregnancy? I agree with you that some things are a given but this was too important to leave everything connected with it off screen. Considering how many people wanted it so badly I can't understand why so many fans are happy with the crumbs they got tossed regarding this storyline. The donation crap with Zak got more screen time than anything to do with Lenny in the last season. I don't even like Lenny much and it bothers me. And it amazes me that I am the one defending what should have been.

 

Again, we could go through two episodes about sperm donation but not discuss a pregnancy between two main characters?

I think a distinction has to be made. Claiming Leonard and Penny are not in a bad place and don't seem to have major issues (the claim made taken by many here) doesn't equal being happy with the way the pregnancy was written, and with the no-kids and Zack drama.

Edited by bfm
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1 hour ago, Die Zimtzicke said:

Did you really expect them to actually show Howardette having sex? Wasn't their physical attraction to each other enough? Do you really think Howard dropping Raj's phone in a urinal is as important a development as Penny's pregnancy?

No. Those are called 'anecdotes'. Examples used to illustrate the point. Also, the 'point' was to emphasize the irrationality of some forum member's insistence that, "If it didn't happen on screen", then I refuse to accept it happened at all.

Personally, I found Penny's adamant opposition to having children to be inexplicable and out of character. Nowhere in 11 prior seasons had she intimated any such position. The writers certainly could have come up with a scene, or two, to cover this ground without taking anything away from the other plot lines. Losing some of that stupid 'plagiarism' story arc would have been a good thing. Similarly, the sudden reversal of position by Penny is just as bewildering and not conducive to effective story telling. Both aspects of this tale should have been fleshed out with resultant screen time. I continue to feel the greatest shortfall in the Lenny pregnancy is that they did not allow us to see the moment Penny informed Leonard of the pregnancy. 

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39 minutes ago, HeWolf said:

No. Those are called 'anecdotes'. Examples used to illustrate the point. Also, the 'point' was to emphasize the irrationality of some forum member's insistence that, "If it didn't happen on screen", then I refuse to accept it happened at all.

Personally, I found Penny's adamant opposition to having children to be inexplicable and out of character. Nowhere in 11 prior seasons had she intimated any such position. The writers certainly could have come up with a scene, or two, to cover this ground without taking anything away from the other plot lines. Losing some of that stupid 'plagiarism' story arc would have been a good thing. Similarly, the sudden reversal of position by Penny is just as bewildering and not conducive to effective story telling. Both aspects of this tale should have been fleshed out with resultant screen time. I continue to feel the greatest shortfall in the Lenny pregnancy is that they did not allow us to see the moment Penny informed Leonard of the pregnancy. 

Totally agree  The writers completely missed an epic moment like that which was an integral part of the Lenny story.  So very disappointing

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Posted (edited)
2 hours ago, HeWolf said:

No. Those are called 'anecdotes'. Examples used to illustrate the point. Also, the 'point' was to emphasize the irrationality of some forum member's insistence that, "If it didn't happen on screen", then I refuse to accept it happened at all.

Personally, I found Penny's adamant opposition to having children to be inexplicable and out of character. Nowhere in 11 prior seasons had she intimated any such position. The writers certainly could have come up with a scene, or two, to cover this ground without taking anything away from the other plot lines. Losing some of that stupid 'plagiarism' story arc would have been a good thing. Similarly, the sudden reversal of position by Penny is just as bewildering and not conducive to effective story telling. Both aspects of this tale should have been fleshed out with resultant screen time. I continue to feel the greatest shortfall in the Lenny pregnancy is that they did not allow us to see the moment Penny informed Leonard of the pregnancy. 

In my humble opinion, you stated everything perfectly!

1 hour ago, Mario D. said:

Totally agree  The writers completely missed an epic moment like that which was an integral part of the Lenny story.  So very disappointing

Yeah, but aren't we so fortunate that we got to see Bernadette tell Howard both times that she was pregnant. Spoiler Alert: Sarcasm!!!!

Edited by chucky
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3 hours ago, Die Zimtzicke said:

Because we didn't see any of her reasoning as to why she didn't want kids, never saw them discuss her issues with kids, didn't get to see her discovering she was pregnant, didn't get to see her telling Leonard and didn't see why she did a u-turn with her feelings when confronted with an unplanned pregnancy. Don't you think it would have been  better if Penny and Leonard had discussed ANY of this on screen where we could see it? And obviously I am not alone in feeling those issues should have been brought out on the show.

Of course it would have been better, I would have loved to see her reaction, her telling Leonard, etc.  But, that would have required the writers to get off of the Nobel and Shamy storyline, and we all knew that wasn't going to happen.  But, we have to differentiate between what we would like to see, and what we were shown.  

Penny didn't seem unhappy with being pregnant at anytime in the final episode (well, maybe when she was throwing up).   If she was unhappy, they could have simply made her unhappy, they didn't.  Which means, she wasn't too upset by it.  Since they decided not to show all the discussion, all we have to go by, is that she didn't use medication to prevent or terminate the pregnancy, and she was happy with being pregnant.    

 

3 hours ago, Die Zimtzicke said:

 

Did you really expect them to actually show Howardette having sex? Wasn't their physical attraction to each other enough? Do you really think Howard dropping Raj's phone in a urinal is as important a development as Penny's pregnancy? I agree with you that some things are a given but this was too important to leave everything connected with it off screen.

You're preaching to the choir (see below).  But, that would have required the writers to, you know, actually write a serious Leonard and Penny scene, when all they seemed capable of, the majority of the time, was to write "I/he wore her/me down"  or "Leonard is bad in bed" type jokes. 

3 hours ago, Die Zimtzicke said:

 Considering how many people wanted it so badly I can't understand why so many fans are happy with the crumbs they got tossed regarding this storyline. 

Because crumbs is all Lenny fans have been getting for the last four-five years.  How often have we complained about how little Lenny we get.  How often have we complained about the storylines we did get?  How often did we get any good Lenny storylines.  When get nothing over and over, crumbs is what you look for.  

3 hours ago, Die Zimtzicke said:

The donation crap with Zak got more screen time than anything to do with Lenny in the last season. I don't even like Lenny much and it bothers me. 

Again, we're used to this, and we complained about it.   In season 8 Sheldon and Penny had more time alone on screen together, than Leonard and Penny, through 23 episodes.   You know what brought Leonard and Penny ahead of Sheldon and Penny?  The conversation, in the car, about the kiss.  Yay for Lenny.  Shamy had over twice as much time alone, on screen.  

How about this for a crumb, in season eight (I don't think you were here yet) Lenny (who were engaged) went for over half the year without kissing, on screen.  We complained about it, vehemently.  You know what we were told?  Some variation on either "It will get better in the second half" (it didn't), or "that kind of stuff happened offscreen" or, my favorite, "He kissed her cheek, that counts.   

3 hours ago, Die Zimtzicke said:

And it amazes me that I am the one defending what should have been.

No one is defending what should have been.  I believe I speak for quite a few Lenny's here when I say we would have loved to see such discussion and reveals.  Of course, that would have the writers to write something other than a major plot points for Shamy.  Cause, when you get one for Lenny, it's, the majority of the time, to stress how incompatible they are, or to highlight the problems in their relationship (see The Romance Recalibration.)

 

3 hours ago, Die Zimtzicke said:

Again, we could go through two episodes about sperm donation but not discuss a pregnancy between two main characters?

We have to ask why, the writers chose to write a sperm donation story, rather than such a pregnancy discussion.  I believe they struggle writing things for Lenny, unless it's a joke like their problems or wearing them down.   

The good things we get are few and far between, so we hold on to those.  Would we love to see such discussion?  Sure, but it's not something we expect.   Look at a few things, no discussion about marriage during their engagement.  We got two episodes of Shamy trying to work through living together, nothing for Lenny.  Before season 12, we got bits and pieces of a discussion of pregnancy, with Penny saying she was fine with kids.   What we got this season, was no discussion with her husband before her decision to not have kids (and I really don't understand those that say Penny NEVER wanted kids).  My theory is the writes don't know how to do it, and make it funny.   They haven't proved to me otherwise, since season 8.  

But, again, none of this overrides the fact that Penny seems happy with being pregnant.  Just because they didn't show the discussion, doesn't mean she didn't work through them, as indicated by her seemingly being happy about it.  

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Posted (edited)
3 hours ago, HeWolf said:

No. Those are called 'anecdotes'. Examples used to illustrate the point. Also, the 'point' was to emphasize the irrationality of some forum member's insistence that, "If it didn't happen on screen", then I refuse to accept it happened at all.

Personally, I found Penny's adamant opposition to having children to be inexplicable and out of character. Nowhere in 11 prior seasons had she intimated any such position. The writers certainly could have come up with a scene, or two, to cover this ground without taking anything away from the other plot lines. Losing some of that stupid 'plagiarism' story arc would have been a good thing. Similarly, the sudden reversal of position by Penny is just as bewildering and not conducive to effective story telling. Both aspects of this tale should have been fleshed out with resultant screen time. I continue to feel the greatest shortfall in the Lenny pregnancy is that they did not allow us to see the moment Penny informed Leonard of the pregnancy. 

Spot-on!

2 hours ago, Mario D. said:

Totally agree  The writers completely missed an epic moment like that which was an integral part of the Lenny story.  So very disappointing

So true. All the more incredible as they have achieved the - not only for me - iconic phrase (smart and beautiful babies) at the end.

Btw. There was the fish that was supposed to had been thrown at the writers...

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...seriously? 🙂

Edited by veejay
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