[Spoilers] Season 12 Discussion Thread

[shell]

6 hours ago, Die Zimtzicke said:

I agree. It went downhill from eight on. But I also miss JP. I can't wait for more info on the show he's doing with Mayim.

I have to admit I like some of 8. I own the DVDs and I think I like the second DVD of the season. 

I am looking forward to the TBTB movie (but won't it be out till October on Netflix) and the Hollywood series (coming out in May) not sure its my kind of show but anything with JP I'll check out.

 

 

3 hours ago, Mario D. said:

For me eight was not so bad especially the first 8 episodes. But what did bother me was that there was not one episode where they showed Penny and Leonard talking or planning there wedding until the finale when they decided to elope. In contrast almost all of season 11 was dedicated to Shamy planning their wedding. MY God, they even had an episode about the date to have the wedding!!!.  And season 12, the final season was devoted mainly to Shamy quest for the Nobel prize. By my count 13 episodes were dedicated to this storyline and only seven to Penny and Leonard with two being an ensemble edition with The Paintball Scattering and the D&D Vortex. You can also count the last two episodes as for Shamy because it centered around their winning.  I also think season 10 was the worst for Penny and Leonard as many episodes had them arguing and not likable characters.

Yes, I do love Shamy but the wedding planning episodes were at times ridiculous and I feel the writers milked the storyline because they could not think of anything else to write about. One episode Sheldon is freaking out about planning, next they're marrying at city hall but that didn't go through with that so they're planning again and quarreling between themselves and the rest of their friends. It was too much. They were not funny episodes. I liked 12 better than 11 and I found that I did like the Nobel Prize storyline

[joyceraye]

On 3/1/2020 at 3:56 PM, chucky said:

I totally agree! Seasons 11 and 12 had wayyyy to much Shamy.  The other two couples barely planned their weddings. As you said, Shamy had all Season 11 long about their wedding.

I liked that one couple of the gang had the chance to plan their wedding without something derailing it at the last minute, like  Howardette's, or conniptions afterwards, like Lenny's. I was ready for something relatively normal and conventional, with the contrast that it worked for the least normal of the characters. 

[chucky]

1 hour ago, joyceraye said:

I liked that one couple of the gang had the chance to plan their wedding without something derailing it at the last minute, like  Howardette's, or conniptions afterwards, like Lenny's. I was ready for something relatively normal and conventional, with the contrast that it worked for the least normal of the characters. 

I don't mind the planning, but not all season long. That was a total waste of Season 11. I'm sure there were other areas to be investigated and shown to us.

[shell]

2 hours ago, joyceraye said:

I liked that one couple of the gang had the chance to plan their wedding without something derailing it at the last minute, like  Howardette's, or conniptions afterwards, like Lenny's. I was ready for something relatively normal and conventional, with the contrast that it worked for the least normal of the characters. 

The actual Shamy wedding was great

[chucky]

3 hours ago, shell said:

The actual Shamy wedding was great

The wedding was, the episodes leading to it wasn't.

[joyceraye]

10 hours ago, chucky said:

I don't mind the planning, but not all season long. That was a total waste of Season 11. I'm sure there were other areas to be investigated and shown to us.

Indeed there was so much more to explore. The sperm donor stuff was a dreadful waste of storyline time too, not to mention its being in poor taste. Also,there was plenty we could have seen instead of the Nobel silliness with the competitors. 

On the other hand, the tangles Shamy got into over the wedding planning and their responses to the Nobel setbacks were so typical of them, I can see how the writers thought those scenarios would be funny. It's the time devoted to them that some fans object to.

I didn't think much of Raj's engagement story either.

[chucky]

1 hour ago, joyceraye said:

Indeed there was so much more to explore. The sperm donor stuff was a dreadful waste of storyline time too, not to mention its being in poor taste. Also,there was plenty we could have seen instead of the Nobel silliness with the competitors. 

On the other hand, the tangles Shamy got into over the wedding planning and their responses to the Nobel setbacks were so typical of them, I can see how the writers thought those scenarios would be funny. It's the time devoted to them that some fans object to.

I didn't think much of Raj's engagement story either.

Agreed. Although the sperm donor thing was funny, it could have been accomplished in two minutes of one episode. Zack asked, Leonard was surprised and said no. I did enjoy seeing Wyatt again. The Nobel silliness could have been done in two episodes instead of spreading it over all Season 12.

[joyceraye]

1 hour ago, chucky said:

Although the sperm donor thing was funny,

I actually laughed at  'Or Penny if it's a girl'. 

I was waiting for Sheldon to offer to draw up the contract, which would have given me another laugh when Amy wouldn't let him.

[chucky]

13 minutes ago, joyceraye said:

I was waiting for Sheldon to offer to draw up the contract, which would have given me another laugh when Amy wouldn't let him.

That would have been funny.

[Mario D.]

4 hours ago, chucky said:

Agreed. Although the sperm donor thing was funny, it could have been accomplished in two minutes of one episode. Zack asked, Leonard was surprised and said no. I did enjoy seeing Wyatt again. The Nobel silliness could have been done in two episodes instead of spreading it over all Season 12.

I agree the sperm donor episodes could have been handled better.  I think the writers were trying to correlate it with episode three and Penny's no kids declaration. I believe episode 15 when Pennys father visits and Leonard realizes that he does not want to be a biological father would have been the perfect episode for Penny to tell Leonard why she did not want to have children. But I guess the writers could not come up with a viable storyline so they just let it fall. Too bad it would have been an integral piece to the Lenny puzzle and what most Lenny fans wanted to hear. Then they could have in a couple of episodes later had Penny reveal to Leonard that she is pregnant instead of at the finale episode to appease the fans. And also explain  how she feels about being pregnant. These are the things I kind of thought they missed out on by airing so many Shamy episodes.

[joyceraye]

47 minutes ago, Mario D. said:

I agree the sperm donor episodes could have been handled better.  I think the writers were trying to correlate it with episode three and Penny's no kids declaration. I believe episode 15 when Pennys father visits and Leonard realizes that he does not want to be a biological father would have been the perfect episode for Penny to tell Leonard why she did not want to have children. But I guess the writers could not come up with a viable storyline so they just let it fall. Too bad it would have been an integral piece to the Lenny puzzle and what most Lenny fans wanted to hear. Then they could have in a couple of episodes later had Penny reveal to Leonard that she is pregnant instead of at the finale episode to appease the fans. And also explain  how she feels about being pregnant. These are the things I kind of thought they missed out on by airing so many Shamy episodes.

They could have put all your ideas in a space left by the omission of the phoney Nobel rivalry. I can't believe the writers thought we'd rather have all that unpleasantness instead of Lenny's issue. They could have found another way to bring Kripke in.It's not as if we've not seen serious stuff before. Howardette actually got more time on  'this mishegas where I don't get grandchildren' years earlier. 

[chucky]

1 hour ago, joyceraye said:

They could have put all your ideas in a space left by the omission of the phoney Nobel rivalry. I can't believe the writers thought we'd rather have all that unpleasantness instead of Lenny's issue. They could have found another way to bring Kripke in.It's not as if we've not seen serious stuff before. Howardette actually got more time on  'this mishegas where I don't get grandchildren' years earlier. 

Totally agree.

[Mario D.]

3 hours ago, joyceraye said:

They could have put all your ideas in a space left by the omission of the phoney Nobel rivalry. I can't believe the writers thought we'd rather have all that unpleasantness instead of Lenny's issue. They could have found another way to bring Kripke in.It's not as if we've not seen serious stuff before. Howardette actually got more time on  'this mishegas where I don't get grandchildren' years earlier. 

Agree with all you comment.  I know TBBT is a comedy first but I often wonder why couldn't they insert some drama into the episodes. There were some serious moments aired: like Mrs. Wolowitz death, Penny's break-up with Leonard in the bowling alley, Leonard asking Penny to stay away per Priya's request. But these were few and far between. I keep recalling  MASH and how this was also a comedy first but they had so many dramatic moments included that endeared it to so many people. Granted war was a backdrop but they succeeded in giving the audience consistent episodes. 

[bfm]

The thing about the "Penny doesn't want kids" storyline was, it was just a (IMO unbelievably terrible) way for them to make the pregnancy announcement in the finale a surprise. This is not a guess, one of the writers straight out said that. Apparently they did not think this through, not even a little bit. This is a very serious issue that shouldn't have been dealt this way ("Oh hey Penny just got up one morning and decided she doesn't want to have kids even though she did before, and it just happened, just like that, because her character is not supposed to resemble an actual human. Also because of that, she'd just get pregnant and everything would be totally fine 'cause who cares about the message we send about people who actually don't want kids. Oh, and in the meantime, here's a very weird, and goofy to a disrespectful level, story about Zack wanting heartbroken Leonard's sperm.")

I think being this successful, and going on for so long, just made the writers complacent. They just didn't think things through.

Edited March 5, 2020 by bfm

[joyceraye]

On 3/3/2020 at 10:06 PM, bfm said:

The thing about the "Penny doesn't want kids" storyline was, it was just a (IMO unbelievably terrible) way for them to make the pregnancy announcemrnt in the finale a surprise. This is not a guess, one of.the writers straight out said that. Apparently they did not think this through, not even a little bit. This is a very serious issue that shouldn't have been dealt this way ("Oh hey Penny just got up one morning and decided she doesn't want to have kids even though she did before, and it just happened, just like that, because her character is not supposed to resemble an actual human. Also because of that, she'd just get pregnant and everything would be totally fine 'cause who cares about the message we send about people who actually don't want kids. Oh, and in the meantime, here's a very weird, and goofy to a disrespectful level, story about Zack wanting heartbroken Leonard's sperm.")

I think being this successful, and going on for so long, just made the writers complacent. They just didn't think things through.

That's outrageous. Just crass.  It was bad enough when it seemed careless and neglectful. To think it was deliberate ......... words fail me !

[chucky]

1 hour ago, joyceraye said:

That's outrageous. Just crass.

That was the writers way of doing things. They never thought anything through at all. Just if it's funny to them, then it was good enough.

[joyceraye]

12 hours ago, chucky said:

That was the writers way of doing things. They never thought anything through at all. Just if it's funny to them, then it was good enough.

For once they were thinking ahead and through lack of experience got it all round their neck,  as they say where I live.

I never understood why once they knew they had a product that would be appreciated for decades to come, they still so often wrote as if only one week's  storyline mattered.  When they did write a lengthy arc , such as Lenny' s broken-up years or the Shamy Nobel pursuit, it wasn't  IMntbHO always as entertaining as it could have been. I do wish they'd given more care and forethought to what would become a classic and not treated it as if it was going to be last night's chip paper.

 

[chucky]

3 minutes ago, joyceraye said:

For once they were thinking ahead and through lack of experience got it all round their neck,  as they say where I live.

I never understood why once they knew they had a product that would be appreciated for decades to come, they still so often wrote as if only one week's  storyline mattered.  When they did write a lengthy arc , such as Lenny' s broken-up years or the Shamy Nobel pursuit, it wasn't  IMntbHO always as entertaining as it could have been. I do wish they'd given more care and forethought to what would become a classic and not treated it as if it was going to be last night's chip paper.

 

So True

[Mario D.]

51 minutes ago, joyceraye said:

To me the two episodes weren't contrasting or mirror images. If the writers thought so, either they were missing something or I am. I was mostly puzzled. It didn't make much of a surprise point with me.  All it did was make me wonder what the earlier blip-that-came-from-nowhere was all about, and whether there was a section missing from the finale script. I didn't get why Leonard was annoyed with Sheldon on the plane. Sheldon was apparently the only one who remembered Penny had said she didn't want children. Considering how the blip had upset both Leonard and Amy in 12.03, even a normal man wouldn't want to go into congratulatory mode at a time like that without more information. He'd no idea then that Penny was happy about the pregnancy. Amy regressed seven or eight years, as was shown by her 'sister wives' question so I guess she was thrown a little off kilter although the news pleased her. 

I agree treating 12x03 as a throwaway episode is perhaps  the best solution. After all,most of the cast forgot it.

Don't know how you can think that Leonard should not have been upset with Sheldon. When he went over to Sheldon he was expecting a normal response of congratulations when someone who has cared for you for 12 years says she is pregnant, but as usual Sheldon was only thinking of himself. However, I guess since Sheldon is  not normal that probably was the expected response. Additionally, they did not want to reveal Penny's pregnancy because as Leonard put it "they did not want to upstage your big day" But Sheldon forced the issue with his obsessive paranoia.

[Mario D.]

1 hour ago, joyceraye said:

Because when somebody who is emphatic about not wanting children turns out to be pregnant, I do not congratulate her or her husband until I know whether congratulations or commiserations are in order. If I have good reason to believe it's a mistake I say little, nothing, or ask a neutral question, such as if she's having sickness. Knowing they know I know it's unplanned and possibly unwanted based on what they've said before, I don't expect them to expect me to show signs of joy as a first reaction. If they go on to say they are pleased now it's happened, that's when I show pleasure myself.

Actually, I send real congratulations on a live birth.  Before is somewhat inappropriate, especially in the early stages.

What you say has merit but these are very close friends with really no secrets between them. I think what Leonard was really annoyed at was Sheldon being his usual self without  concern for anyone else feelings. But now that I think of it he actually doesn't have or know what feelings to express. Leonard always gives Sheldon the benefit of the doubt and I guess in this instance he was hurt that Sheldon never reciprocates in kind.

[chucky]

12 minutes ago, Mario D. said:

What you say has merit but these are very close friends with really no secrets between them. I think what Leonard was really annoyed at was Sheldon being his usual self without  concern for anyone else feelings. But now that I think of it he actually doesn't have or know what feelings to express. Leonard always gives Sheldon the benefit of the doubt and I guess in this instance he was hurt that Sheldon never reciprocates in kind.

Basically, Sheldon made everything about how things effected him. He disrespected both Leonard and Penny as well as Howard and Bernadette. Amy called him out on his actions. Atleast she made him see the error of his ways.

[joyceraye]

16 minutes ago, Mario D. said:

What you say has merit but these are very close friends with really no secrets between them. I think what Leonard was really annoyed at was Sheldon being his usual self without  concern for anyone else feelings. But now that I think of it he actually doesn't have or know what feelings to express. Leonard always gives Sheldon the benefit of the doubt and I guess in this instance he was hurt that Sheldon never reciprocates in kind.

Yes, Sheldon is hopeless with other people's secrets and for himself he keeps nothing private. One thing he is not, is a mind reader. He'd have needed the skills of a magician to tell what reaction Leonard, his closest friend,wanted. If he was pleased for Leonard but sad for Penny then,'Good for you, getting your own way over your wife's wishes' would have been appropriate to what Sheldon knew but tactless. Just as well he didn't know what to say. Leonard could hardly have complained if Sheldon had said the truth as he knew it but it would have hurt.

Now if we'd never had that ghastly 12.03 episode, everybody including Sheldon  would have been happy when the cat was out of the bag. The writers loved conflict in S12 though, so there had to be a rumble.

[chucky]

28 minutes ago, joyceraye said:

Yes, Sheldon is hopeless with other people's secrets and for himself he keeps nothing private. One thing he is not, is a mind reader. He'd have needed the skills of a magician to tell what reaction Leonard, his closest friend,wanted. If he was pleased for Leonard but sad for Penny then,'Good for you, getting your own way over your wife's wishes' would have been appropriate to what Sheldon knew but tactless. Just as well he didn't know what to say. Leonard could hardly have complained if Sheldon had said the truth as he knew it but it would have hurt.

Now if we'd never had that ghastly 12.03 episode, everybody including Sheldon  would have been happy when the cat was out of the bag. The writers loved conflict in S12 though, so there had to be a rumble.

Leonard was upset that Sheldon was more worried about his getting sick and the fact he completely belittled that Penny was pregnant. When told of the pregnancy his response was good, I'm not going to get sick. No congratulations Leonard, how's Penny. Just, as I said, good I'm not going to get sick. As usual, no regard for anyone but him.

[Mario D.]

3 hours ago, chucky said:

Leonard was upset that Sheldon was more worried about his getting sick and the fact he completely belittled that Penny was pregnant. When told of the pregnancy his response was good, I'm not going to get sick. No congratulations Leonard, how's Penny. Just, as I said, good I'm not going to get sick. As usual, no regard for anyone but him.

Exactly what I was trying to say

[joyceraye]

10 hours ago, chucky said:

Leonard was upset that Sheldon was more worried about his getting sick and the fact he completely belittled that Penny was pregnant. When told of the pregnancy his response was good, I'm not going to get sick. No congratulations Leonard, how's Penny. Just, as I said, good I'm not going to get sick. As usual, no regard for anyone but him.

Aha. I get it now. Thanks. 'Congratulations' would have been horrible considering Penny had made clear her decision never to be pregnant, but I see how Leonard saw Sheldon's reaction as self-centred.